Ok... I have to ask....

[Ember1]

Hey taffeta. Alt jan birthflower has blue eyes

[Lady Starflower]

I agree. I wouldn't send her back if I were in your shoes.

[Taffeta]

Hey taffeta. Alt jan birthflower has blue eyes

Hrm, does she? I don't have any of the Alts but the pictures looked kinda purple blue to me (maybe I'm colourblind xD First Diamond's ring, now this? )

It isn't as stridently blue as Sundance's though. I'm pretty certain of that.

Personally, I would really want her to be real, because I love the idea of randoms out there. But the analytical person in me is like PKW, wants to see it, feel it, prove it and find the paper trail and rule out all the other possibilities first. So to me it's case pending, not case closed.

I think you should keep her, but really, it's not up to me.

[pinkkittywinks]

The thing is, even if you apply rational logic to the situation, the fact is that we're dealing with 1980s Hasbro.

And, while it would be nice to think of things in logic, when things like this can happen:
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Or in fact, any of this:
http://www.angelfire.com/wizard/taffeta/weirdintro.html
(this page is SO old, sorry for the ads but it won't let me direct link and I haven't fixed that section of my site yet)

Then we quickly realise...

THERE IS NO LOGIC.

There are only ponies >.>.

And us. Going slowly madder, one hoofprint at a time...

I actually don't put a lot of stock in her comparison to Paintingtime. I'd be more worried about them being too similar, being that they are so distant in terms of age and probable nationality.

If you're really unsure, maybe try the risk of testing her eye and seeing if you think it's been painted over. It might leave a scuff on the eye, but if it's not painted over, then I imagine you;ll feel a lot better.

Alt Jan has lavender eyes, I believe...

I have to confess, though, I'm more intrigued by who Paintingtime's body was before she was used as a 3D canvas, because there are no pink ponies of that pose made in HK in the UK at that time that I can think of...which makes me wonder whether Paintingtime is actually two prototypes in one or if it's just that her body paint has stained through the plastic to the point she now looks pink.

Painting Times inside body colour has been "worrying" me as well. As you said there is no HK marked pony which is that colour. When I first saw her I thought her body colour was closer to MMS.

I found this old thread, which is interesting reading

http://www.mlparena.com/archive/Forums/viewtopic/t=158570/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0.html

The tails are secured like other prototypes I've seen.

I would think that means both Music Time and Play Time have the same cable tie/washer holding the tail in place.

Love pkw xxx

[Ember1]

Here Are the numbers i found inside painting times neck hole visitors can't see pics , please register or login


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[LadyGuinevere]

I wasn't able to identify the base for one of  the painted baby seaside babies based on colour/pose, and the head and body were different colours, so I came to the conclusion that they had some blank bases to use to paint on. From memory, it was yellow body/white head or vice versa, but it is number of years ago now!

(I did ask my friend about them btw - she still has them, but they are currently in storage and neither of us seem to have pics. I do recall taking some pics at her house one time, but can't find ANY from that visit. Sebby went with my to her house one time, and lipstickcat on another occasion, so they might remember them or have photos too)

Do completely agree that there is no logic when it comes to Hasbro.

[Ember1]

What do the numbers 22H and 8 correspond to? Are these numbers on a normal mold of this pose?

[LadyMoondancer]

I think it would be extremely unlikely for her to be an alt. January Birthflower custom, because the alternate Birthflowers don't have blush.  But the regular Birthflowers do have blush, and they all have violet eyes (because they're basically all the same pony, but with different flower symbols, ha ha.  WELL-PLAYED, Hasbro.)

If she's a custom, she could have been rerooted with genuine Sundance hair;  this was a pretty common thing in the late 90s before there were options like Restore Doll or Dolly Hair.  But her hair is sooo neat on the inside . . .

I think it boils down to how you feel about her, Ember.  On the one hand, it's a lot of money for a pony, and what if she is a custom?  But then again, what if you return her and then it turns out that she is a prototype?

Ugh.  It's a conundrum for sure.

[banditpony]

Oh Ember :/ This is such a tricky thing. It really depends on your opinion!

It seemed like you were feeling so solid about it, and now everyone else's opinions are getting to you. ): If she's real, it could be a long time before that could be proven. Or never proven.

I wish you the best of luck in making whatever decision.

[Ember1]

I thought this was an excellent excerpt from the link you posted PWK.. Karlee posted it.


"Hopefully I can shed a little light on some of the prototype process for those interested and i should state that because no one has ever really taken the time to track down MLP designers and ask these kinds of questions, most of this is based on experience with other Hasbro prototypes and from the first hand experience i have with the protos in my collection.

Lancer wrote:

I wish I knew more about the process of designing a pony, and how many prototypes are actually out there for each individual figure...

There were never any strict guidelines determining just how many examples were to be made for each prototype stage so there's no hard and fast rule for trying to figure this out. The general industry consensus would be that possibly one or more wax casts would be made directly from the wax sculpt. The sculpt and/or those casts would be used to create the roto molds but it's very possible that another was used to create hardcopy prototypes (resin casts made from the original wax prototypes). The hardcopies would most likely have been hand painted and used as final paint masters where one would stay in house and one would be sent to the factory. It would not have been uncommon for more than one hardcopy to be made. Once the production molds were ready, the molds would need to be tested and those resulting items are known as first or test shots. The majority of the MLP prototypes on the market are first shots.

To break it down:
First stage: wax sculpt
Second stage: hardcopy
Third stage: first shot

When it comes to collecting prototypes, it's not how many were made, but how many survived. As of now, i have yet to see any surviving wax sculpts in collections and the picture Lancer posted below is probably the only G1 hardcopy i have seen before (more on that to come). There are several first shots out there.

hathorcat wrote:
d this is how we go about getting copy and standard images before launches - sometimes the tweaks which happen during production havent been finialised by the time we need artwork or photogtaphs therefore product developers have to actually "build" the item - usually we use clay/wood or heavy plastics depending on the item - this is why sometimes the picture on an advert or on the packaing might look different than the actual product. its quicker now than we used to be; research and design to product develpment is a faster process than back in the 70s and 80s but this is an old fashioned method which has been going on for years and i assume its how hasbro will go about things. sometimes to convince a client or a marketing manager or a reseach panel that a product will sell you have to show it to them - you cant put a product into production produce 10000 bow ties and hope that little girls will just love them, you have to create 1 bow tie and pitch to an audience and creating that 1 bow tie in a studio rather than in a factory is easier and cheaper.

I would assume that Hasbro's MLP process would be quite similar to that of their other lines. The very first step for the R&D team would be to come up with ideas for new ponies in a meeting. From there these ponies would be designed as sketches and then progress to more detail art renderings known as presentation art. This art would be presented to managers and once approved, the designer would create sculpture sheets (also known as turn arounds) which show the ponies from several different angles. These sheets would go to the sculptor who would start the 3D prototyping process as outlined above.

Now, because MLPs reuse bodies and heads over and over, it could be surmised that the R&D team would have blank first shot bodies around the workshop which they could mix and match and paint up based on their newest ideas. These pieces could have been used in presentation or in catalogue and box photography. It's also plausible that because of this, the wax sculpt and hardcopy processes may have been skipped for ponies utilizing pre-existing body parts. Again, i can't see the pics above so i can't comment on them but this is certainly a plausible explanation for them.

Sunflare wrote:

I find it odd though that Hasbro looses track of so many of its prototypes, vintage and G3. A few of them have been popping up lately, and it's odd that these three ponies in particular would end up at a car boot sale! I wonder if these could have been sold/released in the same way the UK princess variants were?

In the vintage days, Hasbro wasn't as concerned about keeping track of prototypes as they are now. More often than not, these prototypes come from the people who were involved directly with the line. Often they kept them for their portfolios as examples of their work, simply because they liked them, to take home for their kids, or because they worked on the concepts at home. Over time, they get tucked away and come out during spring cleanings or when collectors and dealers come knocking on their doors. A lot of collectors from other hobbies spend a considerable amount of time networking with former employees which is how most vintage prototypes come to the marketplace.

G3 protos come from the factories in China, which is where the majority of the modern first shots seen on ebay from all toys lines originate. There are fairly lax security measures in the factories and stuff just happens to "walk away".

Lancer wrote:


But, unlike these three girls, she's ceramic. We figured out the ones on the pamphlets were made of plastic because of the visible neck seams, but the ones on the backcard appeared to be solid (and maybe ceramic-ish) like my baby.

Lancer, that's a GREAT piece! Are you sure it's ceramic? Is it possible that it's resin? I've not heard of ceramic being used in the production process before as it's too fragile and harder to cast. Resin seems much more likely and would fit into the process making it a hardcopy. How is the hair affixed to the head?"

next post by Karlee

Lancer wrote:

Karlee, that post was very interesting and informative. Thank you so much! Hug It could well be that Baby Explorer is made of resin. I'm no expert on these things, so I can't say for sure. Her tail looks just like any ordinary pony tail, although of course I can't see how it's attached inside her body. There's obviously no washer inside her though, since she's not hollow like normal ponies. Poke Tounge Her mane appears to be rooted into a seperate piece of (resin? Whatever it is she's made of), which in turn has been slotted into her neck. I will try to get better pictures and make another seperate post about her sometime. Smile

That would be great! I really look forward to seeing them! Have you compared her to the production version at all? A real hardcopy should be slightly larger (about 3% larger) so that would be a good indicator if it is indeed a prototype hardcopy. The really interesting thing about yours is the broken horn which would also make this piece an alternate sculpt.

You can definitely tell in the photo posted by PKW that the babies are all one solid piece which indicate to me they're most likely resin hardcopies cast as one piece directly off of the wax sculpt using silicon RTV molds. The picture is a great example of seeing prototypes used as photo samples, which was a common practice (tho i should state that not all photo samples are prototypes).

Lancer wrote:

Oh, and photos of Aikarin's ponies can be found on her sales page - www.aikarin.com/mlp/ex...as_mo.html They're at the bottom of the "Mail Order Ponies, Variants, Holiday Ponies" section. Wink

Perfect! Thanks! Smile

Those definitely have a lot of signs indicating that they could very well be prototypes. The bodies being shot in different colours, airbrushed bodies, hand painted symbols, unglued, etc.
Did anyone notice that the skipping rope on Playtime features a reverse colour pattern?

The most important thing in authenticating prototypes is provenance, which unfortunately, these have very little of. What we know is that they bought from ebay from a seller who claimed to have found them at a car boot sale. Aikarin, do you remember where in the UK the seller was from? If she was located near any of Hasbro UK's facilities, that increases the probability considerably.

Also, someone had mentioned that it probably wouldn't be worth going through all the trouble to create custom prototypes, and i agree, especially because the MLP proto market isn't exactly hot now, let alone 8 years ago. If the price paid for these was really high and the lot was advertised as prototypes, i'd be a little more hesitant to say they're real. But if the price was pretty cheap and they came in a lot of production ponies, as indicated, i'd say the chances of them being legit are a lot stronger.

[Princess Sparkle]

It's a really tough situation Ember, but I'm with Banditpony I think everyone else's opinion is getting to you and shaking your conviction on it and I don't think you should let it. I mean how long did it take everyone analyzing painting time and her sisters before it was mostly decided they were legit and allowed into the gallery. And those painted seaside babies still aren't in the gallery. Legitimizing unknown hasbro prototype ponies takes a long time and it definitely doesn't mean they're not real in the mean time. If every 'fake' pony back in the day had been bought by someone they would have their hands on alot of real and now very expensive MLPs- piggy's, colombian, etc.

I really do believe you should keep her, even though nothing has come out yet to confirm her as a prototype there are so many things in her favor to say that is she is! 

[Callista11]

Reading through this, I'm pretty convinced she is real.

[princessluna11706]

About the whole how to make a pony prototype process- I have never talked about it, but Kirk Hindman, sculptor of many of the poses (his photo is in this thread) is a personal contact of mine.  I had the privilege to work with him most recently in the generations room exhibit I ran at ponycon NYC, and he knows all about how prototypes are made.  I have an hour of footage I took of him explaining the process from beginning to end. Also, unfinished prototypes, such as the eyeless/symbol-less/hairless argies, for example, are called skins.

Sunflare wrote:

I find it odd though that Hasbro looses track of so many of its prototypes, vintage and G3. A few of them have been popping up lately, and it's odd that these three ponies in particular would end up at a car boot sale! I wonder if these could have been sold/released in the same way the UK princess variants were?

In the vintage days, Hasbro wasn't as concerned about keeping track of prototypes as they are now. More often than not, these prototypes come from the people who were involved directly with the line. Often they kept them for their portfolios as examples of their work, simply because they liked them, to take home for their kids, or because they worked on the concepts at home. Over time, they get tucked away and come out during spring cleanings or when collectors and dealers come knocking on their doors. A lot of collectors from other hobbies spend a considerable amount of time networking with former employees which is how most vintage prototypes come to the marketplace.

This is pretty much what he said.  He said most things after being hand made were trashed, and he personally saved a few pieces of pony history, including these things from my instagram:

Clay models showing stages of seashell
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G1 wax pose never used, G3 clay sculpts, all made by Kirk.  Original cp mold.
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Unfinished orange CP and seashell prototype skins, prototype medley stamper, prototype My Pretty Pony, only one in existence.  Prototype unicorn game hand drawn by Kirk.
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Kirk with his Hasbro rejected unicorn game
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Getting a bit off track.  Anyway, point being, knowing him personally and hearing his stories, anything is possible.  I can even reach out to him and ask questions if need arises.  I am very convinced she is real. 

*ETA* He stated himself that the prototypes were often fully or partially handmade, which would explain the painted symbols and the cable tie tail.

[Loa]

Wait, I don't think you can return it to the seller?

The seller hasn't misrepresented anything, she just had a pony. It's us, as a community who have added further value to that.

[Ember1]

O MY GOSH princessluna .. That is amazing that you have all of that knowledge on the prototype process from a close contact.. WOW
Perhaps he can help shed some light on sundance and other prototypes we have if he is willing of course.