Ok... I have to ask....

[LadyGuinevere]

This is a totally unsubstantiated musing, but I imagine customising was not such a big thing in the early days as it is now.  I only even became aware you can change a pony or doll's hair within the last couple of years.  If the pony's earliest known history was 1997, we're talking days before the internet.  There wasn't a big shared knowledge base around. 

I'm not convinced of the 1997 date that the seller gave, but I do know that by 2000 there were a few good customisers and often they would customise to make ponies in alternate poses or colours. I learned how to rehair in 2001 from someone that had been doing it a while by then, and I recall seeing a half-done pony in her bait box that was going to be a unicorn Honeycomb (like in the UK Factfile). The rehairing method I learned was before rehairing tools were a thing (used a needle, pliers and a glue gun!), but there were a few different ones around. I quickly realised I was rubbish at customising, so didn't really pursue it after that though. The reverse Gusty fakes incident was only provided through testing of the glue used, so I guess that at least looked authentic (that was either before my time, or in my early days when I didn't know so much - does anyone remember more specifics?)

It is true that Sundance could be an earlier model rather than later one though. Still would suspect her provenance to not be the UK in that case though, as she had an earlier release in the US than she did here. I do think Painting Time would have been later though.

[Taffeta]

@Daffodil, nobody has suggested it impossible for a CP Sundance concept, nor assumed it must come after the shy pose was decided. The reason that discussion came about was a question of her being a concept idea FOR THE UK, which is entirely different, since UK production was a year behind US production. It was in response to the suggestion that a UK insert drawing showed her in cp pose, which would have dated her to 2 years AFTER shy pose Sundance came out in the US and ONE year after she had already come out here.

I know I said much earlier in this discussion that if Sundance is real, she logically must have come from the time before Sundance was issued and might have been one of a number of options...but that it must have been in the US because, althoughthe UK did make variations, the second release of Sundance here is the one WITHOUT UK exclusive stuff xD. It came with Country Jamboree.

I have, though, been thinking of the idea if a BF base for the concept model. Am I right that BF ponies were first around in 1985, which would have been the same year Sundance was also first released? On the one hand, if they just wanted to present a design idea, there might be a lot of white bodies around and using one would maybe make sense regardless of the pose. On the other hand, though, as a prototype, wouldn't production of the 2 be too close together to use the BF as a base for Sundance?

On the subject of customs, as Lady G said, there were many very skilled pony customisers in the pony comm already when I came online in 97/8 and what is more, there was a whole lot of ethical discussion about making custom versions of existing ponies ( eg deflocking...). Then there were a spate of frauds, including the reverse Gusty scandal. Add to that the number of customs commisioned in other poses, or baby versions back then when G2 was new and unpopular and everyone was focused on G1, I would say customising was by no means a lesser skill then. I might say that, since customising is now spread over 4 gens, there was a more G1 centric custom focus back then. Bait was a lot more available and people did sometimes just tear apart common ponies in good condition to get authentic hair.

And since I was online in 97 and there was already a community online before me, that rules out no net in 97 for ponies Xd. I did my first trade in 1997, and that trader, who I got to know well, told me about her plan to commission custom versions of an unmade baby pony even then.

I'll reemphasise that without seeing Sundance I am not going to judge her real or otherwise. I just think the answer to what she is requires examination of all possibilities.

[Haruna]

And since I was online in 97 and there was already a community online before me, that rules out no net in 97 for ponies Xd. I did my first trade in 1997, and that trader, who I got to know well, told me about her plan to commission custom versions of an unmade baby pony even then.

Yep, there's been a My Little Pony fanbase on the Internet for quite a while. The MLP Trading Post, for instance, was founded in 1996. I first got online as a preteen in 1997 and there were lots of pony fans there already. I imagine many pony people first got back into collecting around then because of the release of the G2 line, like I did.

Customizers have been around for quite a while, like Taffeta says. That doesn't mean that this Sundance is a custom, of course. I really don't know what to think about her! But she could very well be a prototype. If I'm understanding correctly, normal shy-pose Sundance was released the same year as the birthflower ponies (in the U.S. and I think in the UK?). There could be some connection there. Hasbro was obviously not through with the concave foot pose yet and may have originally planned to release Sundance in the concave foot pose, making this prototype, but ended up just doing the birthflowers in that pose. Who knows!

[Lady Starflower]

I feel like this maybe an advanced prototype for Sundance but they changed their minds about pose. This pony could pre date shy pose Sundance. And we all know ponies travel. Nirvanas have been found in the US at thrift stores and that weirdo plum Posey (believed to be a Vene) found at a garage sale in Canada. It's quite possible that this pony moved with a family to the UK or given as a gift. So many scenarios...just because Ember got her from someone in the UK doesn't mean she came from there don't forget

[Ember1]

Hasbro had also planned to originally release satin and lace in collector pose too. We see her in cp pose in the catalogues.  So maybe the same thing happened to cp sundance.

[Lady Starflower]

/\ this
Hasbro has been known to change their minds...also like with Sugarcake and Game Time...orginally were boys.

[LadyMoondancer]

@Taffeta:  The first Birthflower pamphlet I could find is dated 1984.  I think they were released several years running.

Hasbro had also planned to originally release satin and lace in collector pose too. We see her in cp pose in the catalogues.

Personally I think CP "Satin 'n Lace" is a Cotton Candy.

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The brochure with her in it came out years after her original MO offer, so she would have already been sold in the striding pose.  But more to the point, her body color, hair color, and eye color are wrong for Satin 'n Lace, but right for Cotton Candy.

(Of course mock-up prototypes do happen, like the birthday boys Lady Starflower mentioned or the Peekaboo TAF babies.  I just don't think CP Satin 'n Lace is one of them.)

[daffodil101]

@Daffodil, nobody has suggested it impossible for a CP Sundance concept, nor assumed it must come after the shy pose was decided. The reason that discussion came about was a question of her being a concept idea FOR THE UK, which is entirely different, since UK production was a year behind US production. It was in response to the suggestion that a UK insert drawing showed her in cp pose, which would have dated her to 2 years AFTER shy pose Sundance came out in the US and ONE year after she had already come out here.

I know I said much earlier in this discussion that if Sundance is real, she logically must have come from the time before Sundance was issued and might have been one of a number of options...but that it must have been in the US because, althoughthe UK did make variations, the second release of Sundance here is the one WITHOUT UK exclusive stuff xD. It came with Country Jamboree.

Ah okay, cool!  Yeah I thought that was what you said. I was just thinking out loud, trying to play detective and imagine a story of how the process might have gone from behind the mythcal walls of Castle Hasbro

Thanks so much Taffeta (and also LadyG and Haruna to name a couple!) for all your amazing info.  Really appreciate all the collectors who were involved from the beginning to teach us newbies about MLP history!! 



Post Merge: March 29, 2015, 07:11:24 PM

I feel like this maybe an advanced prototype for Sundance but they changed their minds about pose. This pony could pre date shy pose Sundance. And we all know ponies travel. Nirvanas have been found in the US at thrift stores and that weirdo plum Posey (believed to be a Vene) found at a garage sale in Canada. It's quite possible that this pony moved with a family to the UK or given as a gift. So many scenarios...just because Ember got her from someone in the UK doesn't mean she came from there don't forget

Yeah!  From what everyone's said this sounds about right to me

[Ember1]

How about birthday pony in trotting pose. Hasbro must have changed their minds last minute there. I must say i much prefer her in trotting pose. Much prettier.

[Lady Starflower]

/\ I agree. She would have been much cuter in trotting pose.

[pinkkittywinks]

How about birthday pony in trotting pose. Hasbro must have changed their minds last minute there. I must say i much prefer her in trotting pose. Much prettier.

They seemed to change their minds about her twice! As well as the trotting pose, there is also the version which stands in Gingerbreads pose and has yellow symbols instead of lilac This pony has turned up via ebay (I'm not sure who owns her) but she also appears on her backcard with the alternate coloured symbols.

Love pkw xxx

Love pkw xxx

[TwistedRiver]

Ember, personally I firmly believe she is real. I've been working on rehairing on and off for years, and even doing the weaving, which yes is possible but takes a long time to do, her mane still looks factory to me, the weaving is just too perfect.
I would be sad to see her sent back, I really think it would be something you'd regret in the future.
I know my opinion is just an opinion, but really with this lovely lady opinion is about all we have to go on atm.
I also think as cute as shy pose is, Hasbro made a mistake in not making Sundance collector pose, she's just too stunning.
I truly think you've got a lucky find, congrats!

[Hannah66665]

Has anyone considered taking the head off of an Alternate January Carnation and seeing if it has the same numbers on the inside of it's neck..?

I know next to nothing about prototype ponies (aka I knew nothing before reading this thread ) but she does look genuine to me... the paint job and the way you've described her feeling.

princessluna11706, I hope you hear back from Kirk soon! Hopefully it will help shed some light on this mystery. 

[princessluna11706]

Has anyone considered taking the head off of an Alternate January Carnation and seeing if it has the same numbers on the inside of it's neck..?

I know next to nothing about prototype ponies (aka I knew nothing before reading this thread ) but she does look genuine to me... the paint job and the way you've described her feeling.

princessluna11706, I hope you hear back from Kirk soon! Hopefully it will help shed some light on this mystery. 

I hope I hear back from him soon!  He usually takes some time responding to emails.  I also invited him to next year's ponycon, so can't wait to hear back.  Will update as soon as I do!

[Taffeta]

I also agree with LM. I have always thought since seeing it that that was Cotton Candy in a wedding dress .

Bf ponies were 1984? Ok. That might make it different then.

UK years are a bit confusing, especially around the middle of the line since there are three pamphlets covering 1987-8 and all of them, I think, are dated 1987...but Sundance features on the insert for 1986 (with Gypsy, etc, she is actually on the front with Megan) and the earliest one for 1987 in the old style (with the Mountain boys, etc) She does not feature on the later 1987 insert, nor on 1985.

I tend to assume her 1987 release was using up spare Country Jamboree stock...or that she was intended as a Movie version with the outfit Megan wore since Megan and Sundance wear was not sold here.