Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette

[lilgryphon]

This is something that really buns my biscuits. Paypal has feels because it is a money handling SERVICE. If you a selling something (outside of picking something up at a store as a favor for a pony who doesn't have the item available to them and selling at the same cost you paid), and you use Paypal as a means of accepting payment, then you need to pay the fees for said service, per Paypal policies. It should just be par for the course of selling. I understand a lot of people do it here, so when a seller asks me to send payment as a gift, I will, but it still makes me nervous. I don't like lying about things like that. If that extra cost bugs you, up your prices a little.

I get almost all my etsy payments through Paypal and I do not ask my customers to pay any of those fees. I am paying for a service that makes accepting online payments much easier, so that's how I see it. A lot people don't want to send a MO or cash anymore, so the fees are worth keeping customers.

My sentiments exactly! You are still using the service, and for the record I don't like it when small stores want you to pay a fee for using a credit card either...

[Shiromisa]

This is something that really buns my biscuits. Paypal has feels because it is a money handling SERVICE. If you a selling something (outside of picking something up at a store as a favor for a pony who doesn't have the item available to them and selling at the same cost you paid), and you use Paypal as a means of accepting payment, then you need to pay the fees for said service, per Paypal policies. It should just be par for the course of selling. I understand a lot of people do it here, so when a seller asks me to send payment as a gift, I will, but it still makes me nervous. I don't like lying about things like that. If that extra cost bugs you, up your prices a little.

I get almost all my etsy payments through Paypal and I do not ask my customers to pay any of those fees. I am paying for a service that makes accepting online payments much easier, so that's how I see it. A lot people don't want to send a MO or cash anymore, so the fees are worth keeping customers.

My sentiments exactly! You are still using the service, and for the record I don't like it when small stores want you to pay a fee for using a credit card either...

I think it's a bit different shopping online. While it's always annoying to pay an extra fee, Paypal also gives buyer protection that other methods of payment don't. It's not like the owners of the small shop can choose not to send your item if you pay cash, it's right there in your hands. If you send someone concealed cash for an online sale, you have no recourse if they flake out. Moreover, many sellers only accept paypal these days.

[Stormy31685]

This thread is going in circles.

Paypal has made it a lot easier than cashing those M.O. or dealing with bounced checks & so on. Im grateful for that. Im taking a nap now. This is a lot of reading for fees     

Tiffy, you are right.  This is one of those topics that is so overly-debatable because it stems from literally dozens of viewpoints with lots of supporting arguments for every opinion.

For receivers, you could make the argument that a buyer who wishes to use a credit card should be responsible for fees because almost none of us are merchants or businesses.  You could make the argument that it is a cost of doing business.  Collectors holding hard to find ponies may have their choice of buyers and the one with the highest and best offer is going to get the pony - and that will likely mean the buyer willing to pay the fee or send the payment as a gift.  There are just so many layers of debate here, and the biggest issue is that none of them are really wrong, they just all hinge on different viewpoints.

What everyone who collects should probably do, is simply evaluate any transacton they plan to enter into with anyone.  Before sending a payment as a gift, you should ask yourself these questions:

How well do I know my seller?
How reputable is he or she?
Am I willing to lose $x.xx if I get screwed?
Does this deal seem too good to be true?

These are very basic, but will help a lot.  None of us can control the changes set forth by Paypal, but we can work with them. 

The most important thing would be to educate yourself as a buyer, and protect yourself when and where you feel the need.

We all need to remember that this is a website that is dedicated to being a one-stop-shop for all collectors and lovers of My Little Pony.  It is not directly responsible for each person behind the thousands of usernames.  So there cannot really be a "rule" for payment methods.  We all just need to know what our own expectations and personal limitations are, and realize that they may cost us a sale or purchase from time to time or bring in an unwanted buyer or bad seller here and there.

[MikeysGrrrl]

This thread is going in circles.

Paypal has made it a lot easier than cashing those M.O. or dealing with bounced checks & so on. Im grateful for that. Im taking a nap now. This is a lot of reading for fees     

Tiffy, you are right.  This is one of those topics that is so overly-debatable because it stems from literally dozens of viewpoints with lots of supporting arguments for every opinion.

For receivers, you could make the argument that a buyer who wishes to use a credit card should be responsible for fees because almost none of us are merchants or businesses.  You could make the argument that it is a cost of doing business.  Collectors holding hard to find ponies may have their choice of buyers and the one with the highest and best offer is going to get the pony - and that will likely mean the buyer willing to pay the fee or send the payment as a gift.  There are just so many layers of debate here, and the biggest issue is that none of them are really wrong, they just all hinge on different viewpoints.

What everyone who collects should probably do, is simply evaluate any transacton they plan to enter into with anyone.  Before sending a payment as a gift, you should ask yourself these questions:

How well do I know my seller?
How reputable is he or she?
Am I willing to lose $x.xx if I get screwed?
Does this deal seem too good to be true?

These are very basic, but will help a lot.  None of us can control the changes set forth by Paypal, but we can work with them. 

The most important thing would be to educate yourself as a buyer, and protect yourself when and where you feel the need.

We all need to remember that this is a website that is dedicated to being a one-stop-shop for all collectors and lovers of My Little Pony.  It is not directly responsible for each person behind the thousands of usernames.  So there cannot really be a "rule" for payment methods.  We all just need to know what our own expectations and personal limitations are, and realize that they may cost us a sale or purchase from time to time or bring in an unwanted buyer or bad seller here and there.

Well said

[Shiromisa]

Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

[Stormy31685]

Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.

[Shiromisa]

Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.

I've said elsewhere in this thread that if you're bothered about fees, you can add it to the price of the pony. If no one else is selling that particular pony, then your price goes (assuming there's someone willing to pay). I'm just saying that Paypal's TOS explicitly prohibits sellers saying "I need you to give me extra money for Paypal fees."

And while you're not 100% required to use Paypal on online purchases, it makes it significantly harder, as (like I said) some sellers only accept Paypal, even if you personally accept other forms of payment. Others have said why it's shady to ask to have payment sent as gifts rather than goods.

[Stormy31685]

Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.

I've said elsewhere in this thread that if you're bothered about fees, you can add it to the price of the pony. If no one else is selling that particular pony, then your price goes (assuming there's someone willing to pay). I'm just saying that Paypal's TOS explicitly prohibits sellers saying "I need you to give me extra money for Paypal fees."

And while you're not 100% required to use Paypal on online purchases, it makes it significantly harder, as (like I said) some sellers only accept Paypal, even if you personally accept other forms of payment. Others have said why it's shady to ask to have payment sent as gifts rather than goods.

You are right, sweetheart!  Those statements are true and they are very good ideas, but again, you won't be able to force all your sellers to adhere to that standard, and that does not necessarily make them wrong or bad people.  You have to know your personal limitations and go by what you think is right as a buyer or seller.  If you think a seller is wrong for that, then you don't have to buy from him or her, you just have to realize that there will be some members you will not buy from.  Whatever PayPal and eBay set forth as rules is separate from what goes on at a personal level.

[Shiromisa]

Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.

I've said elsewhere in this thread that if you're bothered about fees, you can add it to the price of the pony. If no one else is selling that particular pony, then your price goes (assuming there's someone willing to pay). I'm just saying that Paypal's TOS explicitly prohibits sellers saying "I need you to give me extra money for Paypal fees."

And while you're not 100% required to use Paypal on online purchases, it makes it significantly harder, as (like I said) some sellers only accept Paypal, even if you personally accept other forms of payment. Others have said why it's shady to ask to have payment sent as gifts rather than goods.

You are right, sweetheart!  Those statements are true and they are very good ideas, but again, you won't be able to force all your sellers to adhere to that standard, and that does not necessarily make them wrong or bad people.  You have to know your personal limitations and go by what you think is right as a buyer or seller.  If you think a seller is wrong for that, then you don't have to buy from him or her, you just have to realize that there will be some members you will not buy from.  Whatever PayPal and eBay set forth as rules is separate from what goes on at a personal level.

But...this topic is about Paypal fees. Paypal sets the terms by which you have to adhere to use their service. I don't mean any of this personally, it's just statement of fact. A user can choose not to follow the TOS, but they're liable to have their account suspended if they do. Nowhere have I called anyone a bad person, just that Paypal has the right to set their own terms of use.

[partypony566]

PayPal have no idea whether you are asking a buyer to pay fees or not. Their terms and conditions also state no raffles but people blatantly do it, on here, quite regularly and no one has issue with that when they are trying to win a $100 set of ponies do they! Anyone who participates in those raffles is also breaking rules but they still do it.

And there is nothing shady about asking for a gift payment if you're not shady!

[Stormy31685]

But...this topic is about Paypal fees. Paypal sets the terms by which you have to adhere to use their service. I don't mean any of this personally, it's just statement of fact. A user can choose not to follow the TOS, but they're liable to have their account suspended if they do. Nowhere have I called anyone a bad person, just that Paypal has the right to set their own terms of use.

Sorry, I did not mean to make ou feel like you were accusing anyone of being a bad seller.  I think this sort of thing can be misconstrued very easily because there have been so many topics on it here, when there should not be.

I went back and re-read the first post, and no, I did not gather that this topic asked what we were allowed to do, but more of what was the general consensus of what was courteous when it comes to the fees.  Paypal is not United Way.  Not a Charity.  They are a very for-profit business.  Yes, they care about protecting their buyers and sellers, but their main focus is and will always be linig their pockets.

Long, long ago, before paypal even existind (actually I think I can remember back when McDonalds was still only accepting cash), the only way to buy items off of eBay was with checks or cash.  Now I may have been lucky, but I only lost my money once.  Since paypal, I have had far more bad buyers.

After reading everyone's responses, I will definitely stand by the determination that it is different for evey sale, every party involved, and every case in general.   It is between a seller and buyer.  If both parties are comfortable with it, great. 

What might be best is for everyone to be up front about it, but you cannot police people like that.  There is no means for control. 

Paypal does not have a personal messenging service to be able to read the details of every sale completed by it - nor will they.

So, again, every person needs to know what principles hey care to stick to when acting as a buyer or a seller and understand that there will be costs - opportunity and money - associated with those decisions.

[ponylady]

While everyone has their own viewpoint/opinion on this issue, it has been discussed many times before. I have posted below a sticky from the old Arena on "our" viewpoint on gift payments. I believe Pop-Girl also posted this in the last thread on this same topic.

This is just a friendly reminder that any time you pay a seller and select the "Send as Gift" option, you have just opted OUT of ANY Buyer Protection services that Paypal offers!

Send as Gift= you may not file a claim! Ever!

(not to mention it's rather dishonest and cheats Paypal of their cut- I know, they won't go bankrupt because they lost your $0.63 fee )

You *may* be able to get around this with your credit card fraud department, but I do not know if this has been tried yet, so I wouldn't count on it.

When selling between friends of course it's your prerogative, just remember that once you send it as a gift, it's gone for good.

It is inappropriate for sellers to require buyers to ignore Paypal's Terms & Conditions and send payments as "Gift's!" Don't put your buyers in that awkward position, they would be fully justified to refuse to complete the transaction. Sellers who are members at the Arena, who take payments as "gifts" and then have an issue with a sale here will be expected to work with the buyer exactly as they would if the buyer had Paypal's protection in place.

I know this has all been discussed here before, but it has always been amongst other issues. Seems like it's time this get adopted into the common trading etiquette since it looks like the change to Paypal is permanent.

I hope we'll never see a disappointed buyer here who has no recourse because they tried to be nice and save the seller a couple dollars in fees.

[Sunshine]

PayPal have no idea whether you are asking a buyer to pay fees or not. Their terms and conditions also state no raffles but people blatantly do it, on here, quite regularly and no one has issue with that when they are trying to win a $100 set of ponies do they! Anyone who participates in those raffles is also breaking rules but they still do it.

And there is nothing shady about asking for a gift payment if you're not shady!

  Hahaha I love this line party!

Well, I guess my buyers don't have an issue with it, I must not be shady...

[ponylady]

Sunshine I am glad your not shady  but the post I posted about (in quotes below) is a sticky reminder from the old Arena about gift payments.

It is inappropriate for sellers to require buyers to ignore Paypal's Terms & Conditions and send payments as "Gift's!" Don't put your buyers in that awkward position, they would be fully justified to refuse to complete the transaction. Sellers who are members at the Arena, who take payments as "gifts" and then have an issue with a sale here will be expected to work with the buyer exactly as they would if the buyer had Paypal's protection in place.

So just be aware that if you have an issue by Arena standards, you are expected to follow through as if it was paid for as Merchandise/Services. Just an FYI.

[NoDivision]

I think it's great that by arena standards people are expected to treat all transactions with the same vigilance, and I know our wonderful trader support mods are dedicated to trying to find solutions to all problem transactions  

However, since arena rules and suggestions can't be enforced the same way paypal rules can, I'm not willing to take those chances. I think a lot of other buyers and sellers are in the same boat. We'd like to think we can trust all of our fellow arena members, but numerous trader support threads prove that it's not the case.  I like the level of protection paypal gives. As a buyer I won't buy from anyone who tries to force me to give up that protection, and as a seller I'm more than happy to pay the fees that give me that security.