Gender-neutrality @ Harrod's

[Clementine]

I don't get the "It's harder to find things" argument... Isn't it easier to have one dress-ups section then two seperate ones at the opposite ends of the toy section?
It would also be easier for kids to find toys that interest them, if they liked fantasy it would be great to find all the fantasy toys together, if they like plastic animals then those would all be together too.
As a kid my parents supported whatever kind of toys I wanted to play with but I was still too scared to ask for the Harry Potter lego set and the interactive robot dinosaur that I really wanted, I was too scared to go into the blue section.
I really just can't see any negatives about this, it would make it easier for kids to find toys they are interested in and does not alienate anyone or make kids feel "wrong" if they want to get a toy that's typically aimed at the other gender.

[will2Bfree]

I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. 

I don't think anyone has said that at all.  Quite the opposite actually, many are fed up with not being considered "girly" or "boy..y?" enough. We just think kids should be able to look at and buy what they like rather than being judged or pressured into something they don't. This would at least help cut back on that a little.

I'm sorry if some comments made you think we were attacking your girlyness, that wasn't the point at all. It's just that people that aren't like you should feel their interests are just as acceptable. Like I've said before, it's great that you felt it was ok to explore any aisle, but many kids don't.

And I think organizing by theme rather than gender would be much easier to navigate once you just adjusted to it being something different than you're used to. For example, Barbies (a "girl" item) and action figures (a "boy" item) have much more in common than, say, dinosaurs and Hot Wheels (both "boy" items). It's not about mixing up all the boys items with the girls items to make it confusing to people, it's about getting people to stop thinking of them as boys vs girls items. It's about getting people to consider the interests of the child first, instead of just grabbing what they think is "appropriate". Also, some of your comments confused me. How is grouping legos next to dinosaurs more efficient? They don't have anything to do with each other; I don't see how they're "similar", as you said. That's what I'm in favor of, putting similar things next to each other, instead of in gender-oriented aisles. Unless the similarity you speak of is that they're both aimed at boys, then... yeah, I think my idea of similarity is better organizationally. Just my opinion. lol

Also, I don't think clothing is a good analogy. First of all, there is much more variety in women's clothing than there is in girls' toys. I can look at the women's clothing department without over 90% of my vision turning into a pink blur. "Girly" items are still readily available, they just aren't overwhelming the way they are in the toy aisle. Also, clothing isn't just separated because of what the stores/companies think people will prefer. Men and women have different body builds; therefore, the clothing itself is cut and fits very differently. Most of my wardrobe consists of men's (or "unisex") cut t-shirts, but I'll admit the tapering of a woman's cut shows off my figure much better. Jeans are also cut for various figures (women most often requiring shorter inseams and men having flatter butts). That's not to say that one can't wear something made for the other, as has already been stated, but tailoring based on biological differences is for an individual's physical comfort, not just society's fashion ideals, and does tend to give clothing a better fit. That is why it's practical to separate the clothing department. Toys can not claim the same.

[Taxel]

Has anyone saying it'll be harder to find things ever had to go into a store for the first time? Literally ever? :/ Last September I moved from Southern California to Idaho. I had never even thought about Idaho before. ALL of the stores were brand new. ALL of them. I had to get used to the Walmart, Albertson's, TRU, Target, Fred Meyer, the other Albertson's with a different layout, Petco, Petsmart, Michael's, Walgreen's, and the other Walmart with a hugely different layout. It was overwhelming at first, and it took a bit to get used to them. But less than a month later I knew where EVERYTHING we normally bought was in Walmart, TRU, and Target. Now? I can navigate all of those stores almost perfectly, and if I don't know where something is I find it. Do you know how? By walking around, looking at signs, and looking at aisles. Seriously, it is NOT that hard. I have an absolutely horrid memory but I know right where to go in the stores to find what I want.

And guess what? There are still MANY other stores here (at least 40, probably MORE) I have never been in and have no idea where they keep anything. If I go into them, I actually figure it out. I look at signs, I look at the aisles. If I seriously cannot figure it out (like if I'm too short to see very high up ceiling signs, which yes has happened) I can -gasp- ask an employee! It is their JOB to help you. If they're a jerk, tell their manager if you care that much and ask someone else. You don't have to stand in the middle of the store confused and lost because you don't know where things are. LEARN!

Do you guys think the toys would just be thrown in a huge pile, like someone else mentioned? (At least, I'm 90% sure someone else said that.) Because that is NOT what would happen. What would happen, you ask? Toys would be grouped by type instead of gender. I don't think people not wanting to take five minutes walking around/reading signs/asking employees about a new toy layout is more important than doing what we can to break down such hugely obvious gender barriers like that. In fact, I think that's pretty damn selfish.

Again, all "you"s etc are in general, and not directed at one person.

[hathorcat]

I am not entirely happy to have to come back to this but....this thread is full of opinions - your own individual opinions. State your opinion, do not bash other peoples - calling other people out, even if you are not directing it at one person is not acceptable - in addition calling other people "insulting" or "ridiculous" or "selfish" for not agreeing with you is not engaging in a debate its simply going to aggravate this thread.

So this is indeed a warning people - to keep it on topic and to keep it civil.

[Heliodor]

I am a girl.  I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers.  I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. 

Ok, and that's fine, but what about the people who don't fit into those constructions that society just made up... I don't think people think how damaging it can be to be the OTHER person, who doesn't like pink, or who doesn't like sports, etc... Nobody is attacking your liking pink, they're saying hey for the girls that don't, this is great. People are saying, hey for the boys that would enjoy an MLP but might never know they do because their parents shove them into the arbitrarily labeled "Blue for Boys!! With Trucks and Robots Because That's What ALL Boys Like You guys!" aisle. It's more fair to break down these stupid rules. You can keep on liking your pink, and the girls who don't will get to see new items... Also it's not as simple as "oh, just go walk in the boy's aisle then and stop caring what your parents think!" and "kids don't even know the difference!" oh yes they do...what do you think happens when you're a boy and you bring a girl's toy to school? Think none of the other boys (and girls) are gonna notice? Kids absorb these stupid "rules" like sponges, and they are horrible to each other. And it goes from toys, to clothes, to hobbies, to everything else. I was assigned Female at birth (that means born "female") but I identify as male (that means trans*) but I hide this from others. Besides the fact the majority of people attempt to dehumanize me and put me into their little Society Male/Female Boxes, someone "looking" female and doing male things...you know how that feels? I've had "Dyke!" screamed at me and rocks thrown at my car. I wore a suit to my graduation dance...my mother cried over it and was horrible to me, why can't I just wear a dress like "NORMAL girls"...wtf is a normal girl? What if I didn't identify as male but female and I wanted to wear a friggin suit or play with what I want? No, it's, I'm the freak for "not staying in the pink aisle." Ok...? So you can stay in the pink aisle...which isn't a problem...and life is definitely easier that way...and I actually LIKE pink, and MLP, and Disney, and all of that...which is useful in "passing" without people giving my grief...but try to buy male looking clothes around here? Freak, dyke, etc...and I HAVE a girlfriend. So yeah. Life is easier if you don't care and stay in "the aisle" society decided you should be in...but what if you don't? What if you're in "the other one" or, in fact, NONE at all? Because I "fit" nowhere. And I don't want to have to go into "Girls over here!" and "Boys over here!" just to get a stupid toy...enough with this whole dumb "EVERYTHING DIVIDED BY GENDER" BS...I just got a BUZZ CUT at a salon yesterday, and they charged be 20$ extra than what other men have to pay. For a "women's cut"...LOL WHAT? So because I have breasts and you're going to charge me 20$ more than the guy you just gave a buzz cut? OK, THAT'S TOTALLY FAIR LOL.

Society...you are so messed up.

[starlightcomet]

For example, Barbies (a "girl" item) and action figures (a "boy" item) have much more in common

Yeah to be honest a lot of Barbies are figures with points of articulation at its purest. Though due to the marketing and the way other figures don't have a dominance of one colour they would look strikingly different based on just that. Maybe if more variation came through in the way the toys are made it'd make that separation less apparent when they're put side by side.

But something like Monster High are figures with points of articulation that seem to have many different colours, both on the figures and the actual packaging too (black, blue, pink, yellow, green, orange, purple etc.). They seem to of broken the mould but still popular with girls and gotten boys on board, reading a forum thread for them some say Mattel has targeted both genders from the start. But from photos on Google it seems they are put specifically in the section with painted pink walls in Target? I've not actually seen a big display of them (I probably just wasn't looking for them) so I genuinely don't know where they are placed in UK stores though.

Just incase (though I mentioned it earlier in the thread) - I don't think pink is terrible. I like Fluttershy, she has pink hair. I collected anime figures (when I had the cash to) and some have pink outfits or pink hair. It's not my favourite colour but it doesn't put me off buying something. However it would be cool for the way the toys are manufactured and packaged to have less reliance a single colour. But there is certainly nothing wrong with someone loving pink and it should always remain as a choice

With Sylvanian Families as a example (little animal dolls in doll houses), it doesn't have a dominance of pink, but you can get pink clothes, furniture etc. amongst many other colours.

With regard to organization I think so long as things are still grouped by brand or toy type, itwouldn't get too messy. Especially if they have a logo or display banner above them. Forbidden Planet, a comic book store chain, have started to stock My Little Pony blind bags. There's no pink painted walls but they do group things by show/series or by product type so things are still organized.

[Whippycorn]

I think that all toy stores should be arranged by theme rather than 'girls' and 'boys'. Not all parents have the confidence to go against social norms in order to bring up kids as comfortable in themselves as some of your parents did. 'Boys' toys are either fighting, building or vehicles and 'girls' toys are baby dolls and cuddly toys and cooking stations and pretend make up kits - and most children will be affected by this.

I see evidence of it daily - so many parents saying "oh no, you can't have that, it's for girls" etc. The majority of British kids I see are either 'strong', 'clever' boys or 'beautiful', 'princess' girls (this includes my brothers' children). I'm afraid that while this seems harmless, it feeds into the long standing ideas that men should be competitive and smart and strong and women should be good-looking and demure and homely. After all, men do still get higher earning jobs and women (at least in Britain) still do the vast majority of housework and childcare (even if they have jobs too!)

I saw a documentary recently in which they were talking to a female firefighter and she still gets so much prejudice about it, both from other firefighters and from the public -with some people implying that they wouldn't want to rely on her to save them from a fire . We really do need to finally start breaking down these barriers at the level of society, starting with how our children dress and play, so that boys and girls can both grow up to be strong, gentle, smart, beautiful and most importantly, EQUAL.

That's how I feel about it anyway.

ps: I couldn't help noticing that in the article, they mentioned that Harrods still puts their male workers in blue and female workers in pink.
" "We are not stopping our female members of staff wearing a boy T-shirt, should they want to," he said, adding: "Although they are a different cut."
So there was no gender connotations whatsoever in the choice? "No, none at all." " 

[starrypawz]

I am a girl.  I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers.  I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. 

It's not a case of 'its bad to like 'girly' things if you are female it's more a case of 'there's nothing wrong with girls liking pink, there's also nothing wrong with boys liking pink'.

Although I agree there is this horrible backlash at times. People who get so concerned about 'girly' that they freak out about women wanting to be 'feminine' and act like it's the worst thing ever. 

Basically, I would love society to get to a point where people can like whatever they want without it having a bit 'gender label' stuck to it and without it being such a cause for concern that someone likes something outside of their 'gender binary' or conversley if they stick to said 'gender binary'

People get pushed into gender roles even if they don't really conform. I've had the occassional 'oh why don't you like this? why don't you wear skirts? why don't you wear makeup? why don't you be more 'girly' over the years. I personally have a very 'down the middle' split on what I like and like a mixture of both 'feminine' and 'masculine' things and don't see why that should be such an issue.

don't? What if you're in "the other one" or, in fact, NONE at all? Because I "fit" nowhere I  just got a BUZZ CUT at a salon yesterday, and they charged be 20$ extra than what other men have to pay. For a "women's cut"...LOL WHAT? So because I have breasts and you're going to charge me 20$ more than the guy you just gave a buzz cut? OK, THAT'S TOTALLY FAIR LOL.

Society...you are so messed up.

I agree with you there, when my hair is cut which is probably 2x a year it's a case of 'wash and relayer' and my hair usually ends up quite short for a while yet it costs quite a bit but the 'barber shop' part of the hairdressers I go to is much cheaper. My brother only needs to pay something like 9GBP to get his hair cut I apparently need to pay 20somethingGBP for mine. hair is hair and mine doesn't need any special treatment or colourings etc so why should it cost more for mine? my hair doesn't even take that long to sort out.

[Diamond]

Didn't Toys-R-Us try this a few years back?  (I know I read something about it in one of the toy industry magazines.......)  I thought it ultimately hurt their sales, because consumers were more confused about where to locate items and they would give up and shop elsewhere?

Yes they did and it went so so, the Inmaganirum.  It is still around, for the most part stores are arranged by age, then gender, when you get to the older toys it is just by type. 

[ashes]

Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it

This.  I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section.  I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.

[Zapper]

I am a girl.  I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers.  I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. 

Nothing is wrong about you and I think nobody tries to make you feel that way

But that is exactly the message gendered advertising supports: that some things are "for boys" and some things are "for girls" and when you don't play along with that notion you're a weirdo and a freak.
When I was a little girl I loved to play with MLPs and my Barbies, but I also loved my Legos and Ninja Turtles.
It is wrong to insist that toys that are all about conflict, competition, "yuckiness", building and logic are for boys and toys that are about fashion, caring for children, "cuteness" and love are for girls.
That's plain sexist.

I know a lot of people who weren't allowed the toys or clothes they wanted back when they were little just because their choices didn't conform to the gender binary and the associated stereotypes that come with it.

They thought they were strange for wanting to play with something that was apparently "not normal for their gender".
"Boy toys" are associated with coolness and action while "girl toys" are associated with weakness and superficiality (clothes, make-up, decoration).

If you put the toys into new categories; for example "animals", "building", "vehicles" instead of "girls" and "boys" you take away some of the pressure. The underlying message is that kids can pick what they want, instead of getting guided into a gender role ("boys have to be violent and competitive, girls have to be pretty and caring").

It's about choice (like many things in life).

Just because you identify as a woman doesn't mean you have to stop loving "girly" stuff. But men/boys can also like "girly stuff" and women/girls can like "boy stuff" (even though the latter is probably more accepted in our society due to "male" still being the dominant, "better" gender) and nobody should feel awkward for their hobbies and interests just because of their sexes or genders.

[Taxel]

Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it

This.  I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section.  I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.

Its great that your kids are that confident and don't let the aisles bother them! But not every child is like that. Its been said over and over by people who are now adults that the "girl" toys and "boy" toys divide caused them problems as kids, even in some cases with fully supportive parents who didn't care if their daughter wanted "boy" toys or vice versa. Their problems should NOT be ignored or written off just because you/your kids never had an issue with that. Your experience and the experiences of your children are NOT the only experiences out there/don't automatically match everyone else's experiences/etc.

"You"s are general aside from the first sentence.

[ashes]

Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it

This.  I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section.  I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.

Its great that your kids are that confident and don't let the aisles bother them! But not every child is like that. Its been said over and over by people who are now adults that the "girl" toys and "boy" toys divide caused them problems as kids, even in some cases with fully supportive parents who didn't care if their daughter wanted "boy" toys or vice versa. Their problems should NOT be ignored or written off just because you/your kids never had an issue with that. Your experience and the experiences of your children are NOT the only experiences out there/don't automatically match everyone else's experiences/etc.

"You"s are general aside from the first sentence.

Taxel, please don't get hostile.  I never said that my experience was everyone's.  Like you, I'm just contributing an opinion.  Again, which is why I said it's probably ADULTS that have those issues, not children.  There are many of my kids' friends, both boys and girls, whom I've seen at my Target, and they are just meandering with their kids in the toy aisles, regardless of the gender.

[ZennaBug]

I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. 

I don't think anyone has said that at all.  Quite the opposite actually, many are fed up with not being considered "girly" or "boy..y?" enough. We just think kids should be able to look at and buy what they like rather than being judged or pressured into something they don't. This would at least help cut back on that a little.

Oh, I didn't mean you guys.  It seems like society in general frowns on girls liking girly things because we should be more "liberated" or something like that.  I may not have phrased myself well, because I was more or less agreeing with you.  Any kid should be able to buy any toy they want, regardless of its target gender.  I just think that people are putting so much effort into forcing neutrality, that some little girls actually feel embarrassed liking pink and sparkles - I say this from experience.  I loved pink and sparkles and other girl stuff when I was little until I got made fun of for being too girlie.  I got rid of my pink backpack, gave away my pink and purple bike with a flower basket, heart seat, and sparkle streamers, and I stopped using my Lisa Frank folders.  I was so upset that I didn't wear pink for over 10 years.

I don't mind how Harrod's is organizing.  I just don't see why it matters that much where the toys are shelved.  The little boys who want ponies might still be embarrassed to ask for them and the girls who want hot wheels may still be told they can't have them.  It's all something controlled by the parents and the other kids who might pick on them.

Hopefully that was a little more clear, I don't think I chose my wording well last time. 

Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it

This.  I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section.  I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.

I agree.  I didn't even blink an eye at girl's vs boy's toys when I was a kid.  That's why I said that gender neutrality and separation are adult concepts.  When I was a kid, I just saw "toys."  Some I liked, some I didn't.  It had nothing to do with what I was "supposed" to like, I just liked it.

[tulagirl]

Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it

This.  I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section.  I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.

Yes I can really agree with this being my experience also having worked with children for 25 years now out of the hundreds I have worked with, I  had one that had some gender issues and I allowed her to be herself.   The mother, however, freaked out and started crying and losing her mind in front of her kid which, in my opinion, was far worse for her child than a non gender neutral enviornment.  I also realize too that there are kids that are affected.  I am just not so sure how much this is going to help honestly...since they spend so little time in a toy store. I can see where people are coming from...I am just not so convinced.