Gender-neutrality @ Harrod's

[LadyMoondancer]

Incidentally, gender-specific clothes for kids is a pretty new concept too (in the US, anyway).

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This is young FDR.

I feel like there's increasing resistance to letting kids, even girls but especially boys, be "cute" anymore.  Suddenly little girls have to be sexy (urgh) and boys have to be cool all the time.

[KarentheUnicorn]

I'm just surprised that more male collectors haven't come to this thread and gone, "COOL!  That's what we wanted, a toy section where I don't feel awkward picking out a Pinkie Pie!" 

Not that there's anything TO feel awkward about, but many of them have expressed these opinions.  I thought this would generate some goodwill towards the androgyny of ponies.   

Doesn't every cowboy need a faithful equine animal friend. Roy had Trigger, Gene Autry had champion, The Lone Ranger had Silver...so why can't nowday males have Pinkie Pie?

Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?

[tulagirl]

Oh I was reading once that often when you see these older photos and think they are girls quite often they are boys because they didn't cut their hair always either.  Neat photo.

[biologistkid]

I get the desire that we want it to be okay for a boy to have a baby doll or pony and okay for a girl to have a car or whatever. I just don't know how well you are going to mix the two before it will make no sense in terms of shopping.

I don't think the whole idea in a store is they want to divide boys and girls as it's more an easier way for people to shop and find what they are looking for, etc.

I understand that it makes it easier, but the problem is why it's easier to shop when it's sorted like that. When we put dolls down a "girl" aisle, grouped with other "girl" items, regardless of the fact that children of both genders will play with these toys, we enforce a stereotype. It's easier to shop for girls and boys when it's sorted like that because people will go down the aisle for the respective gender they are looking for and assume that any toy within that aisle will suit the needs of the child in question, without really taking into consideration the child's actual interests.

I (personally) don't want stores to have toys thrown about willy-nilly; that would be a hassle for everyone, haha. But groupings such as "Television" (where you could have Transformers, My Little Pony, and Poke'mon all together, for example), "Animals", "Play Pretend", etc. would allow children to look at toys based off of their actual interests, not a stereotype of each gender's interests.

It might take a little adjusting, but I don't see how it would be more difficult to locate specific toys with a sorting like this. Hot Wheels, just as an example because it was mentioned, could be in a "Classics" aisle for the largest toy lines like Barbie, Hot Wheels, and other long-time-running toys with large demand.

Of course, with some toys in the borderland between groupings, those might be a little harder to find - but then again, we see problems like this all the time. For example, blind bags - do you keep them with MLP merchandise, or with trading cards? Things like that would still be at the store's discretion, and would probably be a bit of a hassle - but just like other difficult-to-locate toys, there are only so many places it could logically be, and an employee from that area of the store would likely be able to help you.

[starlightcomet]

...so why can't nowday males have Pinkie Pie?

Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?

I don't think they're literally letting others decide, it's just it's often easier for them to keep it under wraps because of some of the harsh prejudice and bullying which occurs. I feel especially sorry for those still in secondary / high school where the most prejudice occurs. Though it can still happen for adults too. Whilst many have a thick skin as others have stated in this thread for those who are more sensitive (kids or adults) its tougher for them to not let some things sink in and be hurt by it.

[KarentheUnicorn]

I get the desire that we want it to be okay for a boy to have a baby doll or pony and okay for a girl to have a car or whatever. I just don't know how well you are going to mix the two before it will make no sense in terms of shopping.

I don't think the whole idea in a store is they want to divide boys and girls as it's more an easier way for people to shop and find what they are looking for, etc.

I understand that it makes it easier, but the problem is why it's easier to shop when it's sorted like that. When we put dolls down a "girl" aisle, grouped with other "girl" items, regardless of the fact that children of both genders will play with these toys, we enforce a stereotype.

IT's easier because cars and trucks and trains go together and it's easier to find when they are together. It doesn't mean you can't have pink cars, it just means it doesn't make sense to have dolls with the trucks. Okay maybe it doesn't make sense to me. I know the board game section of the Toys R Us I go to, all the games seem to be mixed together, there isn't really a gender section in the board game isle. It generally seems to be organized by theme and age.

It's easier to shop for girls and boys when it's sorted like that because people will go down the aisle for the respective gender they are looking for and assume that any toy within that aisle will suit the needs of the child in question, without really taking into consideration the child's actual interests.

Then does this mean we should just blame the clueless shoppers? (LOL) You are shopping for a 8 year old girl...not knowing what she likes. Well she must like what every 8 year old girl likes - Pink Glitter because that is all you see on the girl section. Who knew she wanted a G.I. Joe and a Lego Set?

Actually I don't know if the clueless shopper is a good argument since they didn't even take the time to find out what they were supposed to buy anyway.

Nobody said you can't have pink cars - actually if you think about it Barbie and MLP and others have cars but again, they are actually sorted by 'theme' as in it's a MLP car or Barbie Car with the MLP and Barbies.

And Again, I get the whole we want it to be okay for boys to play with pink plastic ponies - but I still think the idea of going in a toy store and having ponies with monster trucks seems a bit of a wonky designed toy store. It sounds like a Dollar Tree toys layout where everything is mixed up with everything else. Nothing really wrong with that but it's not usually very pretty to look at or shop in. Usually it makes me want to leave, because of the disorganization - whereas when I go in  Toys R Us, I want to stay and look at everything because everything is organized by the actual toy.


Post Merge: August 14, 2012, 10:16:17 AM

...so why can't nowday males have Pinkie Pie?

Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?

I don't think they're literally letting others decide, it's just it's often easier for them to keep it under wraps because of some of the harsh prejudice and bullying which occurs. I feel especially sorry for those still in secondary / high school where the most prejudice occurs. Though it can still happen for adults too. Whilst many have a thick skin as others have stated in this thread for those who are more sensitive (kids or adults) its tougher for them to not let some things sink in and be hurt by it.

You are really not telling me anything about 'school' that I don't already know. I went to public school in a poor area of my state. I know a lot about what it's like to be bullied and mistreated by male and females and I'll add to that teachers. I had a couple teachers that make Professor Snape look like a kind man.

[Radiance]

This is Harrod's, I doubt it's going to be messy and disorganized! I think it's a clever marketing trick. By mixing the toys by type rather then boy/girl, children shopping for a new toy may very well be exposed to more different toys. Like if you always steer your boy to the boy isle before (not that anyone here does that, but face it it happens), now instead of going directly for the GI Joe he looks around and sees the MLP Pinky Pie train and thinks it's the coolest toy ever. And vice versa for the girls. GI Joe is way cooler than Ken. Also, when adults are shopping they are going to have to slow down and look through the entire theme, I think impulse buys will go up. The more you wander around the toy store, the more cool stuff you find, right?

I hope that made sense, I'm finding it difficult to articulate today.

[starlightcomet]

IT's easier because cars and trucks and trains go together and it's easier to find when they are together. It doesn't mean you can't have pink cars, it just means it doesn't make sense to have dolls with the trucks. Okay maybe it doesn't make sense to me. I know the board game section of the Toys R Us I go to, all the games seem to be mixed together, there isn't really a gender section in the board game isle. It generally seems to be organized by theme and age.

I think its fair to group things by brand (so the MLP car / train set isn't likely to end up in the generic car / trains section). But if there was less of a separation Transformers brand could sit alongside My Little Pony brand etc. Though its not just toy stores fault of course, I do think there is a over-reliance on pink in girls toys which isn't so present when it comes to blue in boys toys, and if there wasn't that dominance of a single colour putting them side by side probably wouldn't be so clear. If the toys were originally manufactured to have a bigger variety of colours then it wouldn't be such a noticeable streak.

You are really not telling me anything about 'school' that I don't already know. I went to public school in a poor area of my state. I know a lot about what it's like to be bullied and mistreated by male and females and I'll add to that teachers. I had a couple teachers that make Professor Snape look like a kind man.

I didn't say it was anything new. I was bullied too and I'm really sorry to hear you also experienced that. And yeah some teachers are real ogres to the point of becoming legendary. However I didn't say it just happens at school though, just that, as we both might expect, it happens more often. But its true that male adults suffer it outside of school, due to preconceptions, and different people respond to that in different ways. Some carry on regardless proudly, some become more uncomfortable and wish to avoid potential confrontation and protect themselves. So its just one reason why some men let it "dictate" whether they stride forward buying ponies or just order them online on the quiet.

[KarentheUnicorn]

I didn't say it was anything new. I was bullied too and I'm really sorry to hear you also experienced that. And yeah some teachers are real ogres to the point of becoming legendary. However I didn't say it just happens at school though, just that, as we both might expect, it happens more often. But its true that male adults suffer it outside of school and different people respond to that in different ways. Some carry on regardless proudly, some become more uncomfortable and wish to avoid potential confrontation and protect themselves. So its just one reason why some males let it "dictate" whether they stride forward buying ponies or just order them online on the quiet.

I think we used school since it was kind of what the world is when you are a kid/teenager but it can happen outside of school for girls just as much as boys.

In most cases bullying is not any different for girls that it is for boys or at least not in my experience of seeing it and what happens.

And I don't know about the male online pony buying habits; not my business.

I buy pony stuff online, I bought the white princess Celestia from Toys R Us, doesn't mean I'm nervous of going in the pony section of the store it just means with free shipping I don't have to spend my time and money going to the store to buy something they'll send right to my door.

So I can't say guys buying ponies online is because they are wigged out about shopping in the pink section at Toys R Us, or if it's just easier and less hassle to buy it online. Buying ponies online isn't just a guy thing and each reason for doing it can be different.

[Zapper]

As someone who's against gender roles (and therefore also against gendered toy advertising) I very much approve of this idea. I wish every toy store could be like that!

Now, I hope the parents will also support this concept by teaching their kids that there are no such things as "boy toys" and "girl toys". Because if the kids' social environment firmly believe in gender roles, then they will make sure to ingrain this into the kids' brains, no matter where they will find the toys in the future.

[starlightcomet]

In most cases bullying is not any different for girls that it is for boys or at least not in my experience of seeing it and what happens.

Speaking strictly on ponies (e.g. the aforementioned "shopping for Pinkie Pie", which is what I was referring to with mentioning adult males or boys still in school), you're right it can happen for women too, some are called childish for still liking ponies or are called weird for collecting them, though for the most part it seems there is a bigger stigma on boys and adult men liking ponies.

So I can't say guys buying ponies online is because they are wigged out about shopping in the pink section at Toys R Us, or if it's just easier and less hassle to buy it online. Buying ponies online isn't just a guy thing and each reason for doing it can be different.

Just passing on what some bronies have said on community forums regarding how some of them feel apprehensive and so order online instead (others are proud and walk in and take a whole box of ponies to the counter but everyone is different). But certainly for others it is just for convenience, especially since distribution of certain MLP stuff seems pretty hit and miss. 

http://ukofequestria.co.uk/threads/sort-of-apprehensive-about-pony-merch.3629/

[hyenacub]

I remember reading an article about this!  I love it.

[will2Bfree]

I think this is great. I know as a child I always felt "safer" shopping in stores like Dollar General, etc. because even though their selection of toys wasn't as good, I didn't have to worry about being judged since, for the most part, they weren't divided by gender like the bigger stores. However, when I'd go to walmart, etc. I was always very reluctant to venture into the boys' aisle because I didn't want people to think I was deviant or get in trouble for being where I wasn't "supposed" to be. While I realize now as an adult, I wouldn't have actually gotten in trouble and there was really nothing to get in trouble for, the mind of a child works differently. Children's behaviors and interactions are relatively primitive and they're able to pick up on established territories very easily. Didn't you ever have areas on your playground that you avoided because that was "so-and-so group's spot"? It can be very intimidating for a young child to go against things like that, especially when their peers are very quick to pull out terms like dike and act like there's something wrong with them whenever there's even a hint that somebody might like something meant for the other gender. Even though not all stores actually label the aisles "boys" and "girls", everyone still knows which is meant for which. It might have originally been meant for ease of shopping, but it quickly went from "this is what they might or generally like" to "this is what they're supposed to like". I liked to look in the boys' section as well as the girls', but I did everything humanly possible to avoid being seen there and what should've been an enjoyable experience would often become stressful.

And I find it pretty insulting, these people telling us we had awful parents and it's all their fault we didn't have super outgoing, who-cares-what-other-people-think personalities as children. The opinions of others always weighed much more heavily on me that it did my parents. My parents were great and they didn't care a lick about any of this toy-gender garbage. They'd just roll with whatever I was in to. My oldest sibling is a boy so me and my sister grew up with his castoffs and there wasn't anything strange at all about playing with He-Man, etc. I had many of my own dinosaur, etc. "masculine" toys as well. And since I was raised on a farm, any farm related toys (tractors, animals, barn, etc) were entirely gender neutral as far as I was concerned. And when my family would visit my cousins (all boys) I would play with their combines and building/connector type sets. While I did end up having several barbies, my parents always knew I was never super frilly and I absolutely hated pink and wearing dresses and they never pressured me to be any way other that what I was. But walking into a store and seeing that (very obvious) separation, what was perfectly normal at home, seemed wrong in the eyes of society. You can call me overly-sensitive if you want, but it made me uncomfortable. The same way I get nervous now entering any part of the toy department as an adult. Toys aren't meant for adults and people around here know I don't have kids, if anyone I know sees me I know I'll be judged. It's almost the same feeling I had as a kid, afraid of being seen in the boys' section. Parents certainly can pass on gender views to their kids, but they are by no means the sole, or even primary, source of influence. No matter how important your parents are to you, that's still only two people against a whole world with other ideas.

That's great that some of you were so bold and daring, but what about those that aren't? The shy kids? The ones that just want to please? The ones who care what other people think and can't stand up to peer pressure the same way? The ones who DO have crazy, extremist parents?

I understand you not wanting to get used to a new organizational scheme, but it takes all of what? Five minutes tops? to walk through and figure out how things are laid out. And from then on you'll know exactly where to head, just like you do now. I know I went to TRU for probably the first time in my life just last year and it has a totally different set up from Walmart, aside from being much larger. I was confused at first, but then "Oh, look! There's signs, that's convenient." And now I know the general direction to aim for once I enter the doors. If you're super pressed for time or really can't figure it out, just ask a worker to point you in the right direction. You act like the toys aren't going to be sorted at all and they're just going to throw them all in a giant heap in the middle of the floor. Companies know better. They know they're going to have to make it so people can find what they're looking for if they come in for something specific. And if they don't have something specific in mind, this opens up the opportunity for variety for children. For instance, Hot Wheels and Barbies aren't going to be mingling on the same pegs, but it would be conceivable for the Barbies to be next to the Star Wars or other humanoid action figures. Bookstores have always been sorted by genre, not the gender of the protagonist, or which sex the publisher thinks the novel will appeal to, even though some genres do seem to draw in more readers of one gender than the other. I don't see how this concept is different. Bookstore = Genre then alphabetical; Toystore = Theme then brand. Makes perfect sense to me.

I can just picture it: A girl goes to get a unicorn toy and sees the much more awesome dragon toy right next to it, which she would've missed out on because previously it would've been in the boys' section. Or a boy looks for one of those robotic dogs and ends up liking the bright, fluffy furby or furreal friend more, which were now grouped together since they're all electronic pets.

Even if stores never decide to change the current layout, just more color variety in the girls section would be a wonderful thing too. I know some girls do like pink, even though I'm not one of them, but for goodness sake, offer SOMETHING ELSE! Anything else! Please!

[Heliodor]

Incidentally, gender-specific clothes for kids is a pretty new concept too (in the US, anyway).

-snip-

This is young FDR.

I feel like there's increasing resistance to letting kids, even girls but especially boys, be "cute" anymore.  Suddenly little girls have to be sexy (urgh) and boys have to be cool all the time.

This photo is amazing, and you should feel good.


ETA:

Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?

When you live at home with your parents and they abuse you for not conforming the gender binary - yeah, a little hard to just decide not to care... That's why I approve of this.

[ZennaBug]

I have never understood why this is an issue.  Sure, the Barbies and ponies are grouped together.  And the legos are near the dinosaurs.  It's efficient.  As a kid, I knew that I could go straight to certain aisles to find ponies, LPS, dolls, or stuffed animals.  I liked girly and I liked pink.  Nobody told me I had to, I just was drawn to those things (still am).  I also liked dinosaurs and would go into the aisles with action figures to get those (my favorites were the Jurassic Park sets).  I had a lot of Hot Wheels too.  I never felt like I wasn't allowed in the "boy" aisles.  Most kids don't even notice the separation for the most part.  The whole concept of gender neutrality is something grown ups invented.  I think kids can play with whatever they want.  Putting the action figures next to the ponies won't really do much more than confuse people.  Keeping similar toys next to each other is efficient, it makes things easier to find.  Nobody is being sexist, they are being organized.  If there was a sign that said "no girls/boys allowed," then there would be a problem.  If a boy likes princesses, his parents can take him to the princess aisle.  If a girl likes dinosaurs, she can go into the dinosaur aisle, just like I did.

Would you complain that keeping men women's clothing in separate areas is wrong?  Nope.  Because it makes sense to organize that way.  I can still go get a goofy t shirt in the mens area if I want and a man can come get a cute cardigan in the women's section if that's what he wants.  The only barriers are the ones we create in our minds.

*shrug*

I am a girl.  I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers.  I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things.