G1's Cotton Candy and G1's Sweetheart were first release as blank flanks.

[invinible]

Out of the 2 to prove this, Cotton Candy is the easier 1 to prove.

The first My Little Pony commercial showed the ponies as Appaloosas.  The reason this is important is because every other pony in the Collectors set ended up with a symbol that showed them as more than Appaloosas which means if Cotton Candy wasn't so lazy than she could have earn a flank symbol even that early.

Now Sweetheart is a tougher 1 to prove but can be done.

First off there is no way Nurse Sweetheart isn't meant to be an updated version of the Tales 7 Sweetheart as she is clearly has the same appearance other than a couple extra flank symbols and is a logical extension to the way the show Sweetheart would have taken her life.

Now to really understand why Sweetheart was first released as a blank flank, we need to pay attention to information in the My Little Pony Tales episode Princess Problems.  Here the lost princess is describe as exactly like Patch expect with a red birthmark on the bottom side of her right front hoof but giving no description of a flank symbol.  This lack of flank symbol is often seen by fans as something the king and queen show of stated in their missing daughter report to get her back, however, they are overlooking the fact that Rosey most likely didn't get that flank symbol until after being lost at sea.  The reason this is important is that it shows that it is possible for ponies to have birth marks so what is that stop a birth mark or birth marks from forming where the flank symbols usually are causing them to be mistaken for flank symbols?

Hence Sweetheart's hearts on her flanks are birth marks, not flank symbols.

[brighteyes]

I don't think I'm following you.... to my knowledge there were no prototypes of Cotton Candy or Sweetheart that were released without symbols.  Also, the idea of ponies earning their symbols isn't something that was well established prior to Friendship is Magic.  It's true that it is hinted that Baby Ember has to earn her mark and was released with no symbol but all subsequent baby ponies, even newborns, were released with symbols.  If it's true that a pony has to earn her mark in G1, then why would newborns have symbols, when they cannot even talk yet? 

[lovesbabysquirmy]

G1 is NOT the same universe or storyline as G4.  I am utterly and totally confused here.  There was no connection between the toys and the show; they released the characters but there isn't specific backstory to go with them to compliment the show's plot... 

[Leave a Whisper]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what your talking about.  Cotton Candy's symbols are sort of like fluffballs, not Appaloosa patterns. Baby Ember in RaMC didn't have a symbol and neither did a couple of her toys, but one toy did have a star.

I haven't seen Tales in a long time so I don't remember that episode but Sweetheart clearly has symbols. They don't earn their symbols in G1, G2 or G3, they're born with them. Their symbols correspond with their name.

[LadyMoondancer]

Actually Cotton Candy's symbol was indeed meant to be an appaloosa pattern.  Originally the plan was that MLPs would be "real horse" colors with real horse patterns.  Then the idea evolved to "fantasy colors" with real-horse patterns.  This is seen in the Year 1 commercial, where ALL the Collector ponies have appaloosa spots, and also on front of the Year 1 backcard, and on this Year 1 brochure:

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By the time they were actually released, someone had come up with the idea of giving them all separate symbols (probably got the idea from Care Bears).  However, Cotton Candy's symbol never changed, so she retained her spots.

I know a lot of people interpret her symbol as little bits of cotton or cotton candy, but in terms of "what did the artist have in mind when they drew it", it's really not meant to be anything but random spots.

Anyway, I think this topic was meant to be a fun hypothetical.

[Leave a Whisper]

Actually Cotton Candy's symbol was indeed meant to be an appaloosa pattern.  Originally the plan was that MLPs would be "real horse" colors with real horse patterns.  Then the idea evolved to "fantasy colors" with real-horse patterns.  This is seen in the Year 1 commercial, where ALL the Collector ponies have appaloosa spots, and also on the Year 1 backcard.

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^ Kind of hard to see, but everyone has spots.  (I think they updated the art on the back so they have symbols, though.)

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^ Also on this brochure.

By the time they were actually released, someone had come up with the idea of giving them all separate symbols (probably got the idea from Care Bears).  However, Cotton Candy's symbol never changed, so she retained her spots.

I know a lot of people interpret her symbol as little bits of cotton or cotton candy, but in terms of "what did the artist have in mind when they drew it", it's really not meant to be anything but random spots.

Ah. I stand corrected on that one. Doesn't make her a blank flank though. That's strictly a G4 term.

[reanna-mator]

Actually Cotton Candy's symbol was indeed meant to be an appaloosa pattern.  Originally the plan was that MLPs would be "real horse" colors with real horse patterns.  Then the idea evolved to "fantasy colors" with real-horse patterns.  This is seen in the Year 1 commercial, where ALL the Collector ponies have appaloosa spots, and also on front of the Year 1 backcard, and on this Year 1 brochure:

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By the time they were actually released, someone had come up with the idea of giving them all separate symbols (probably got the idea from Care Bears).  However, Cotton Candy's symbol never changed, so she retained her spots.

I know a lot of people interpret her symbol as little bits of cotton or cotton candy, but in terms of "what did the artist have in mind when they drew it", it's really not meant to be anything but random spots.

Anyway, I think this topic was meant to be a fun hypothetical.

That's really interesting! Never seen that picture before.

[invinible]

I don't think I'm following you.... to my knowledge there were no prototypes of Cotton Candy or Sweetheart that were released without symbols.  Also, the idea of ponies earning their symbols isn't something that was well established prior to Friendship is Magic.  It's true that it is hinted that Baby Ember has to earn her mark and was released with no symbol but all subsequent baby ponies, even newborns, were released with symbols.  If it's true that a pony has to earn her mark in G1, then why would newborns have symbols, when they cannot even talk yet? 

Actually, you are making the mistake of assuming something that G1 clearly started as something G4 started.

If you look at the back cards before the point where any resembled of story was removed from them, you would see the occasion story that dealt with the different types marks.  The ponies earned their flank symbols or other type of mark rather than be born with them in every 1 of those stories.

Ah. I stand corrected on that one. Doesn't make her a blank flank though. That's strictly a G4 term.

Actually, blank flank simply means: pony without a cutie mark.  The G1 term for cutie marks is flank symbols.  Hence a pony without a flank symbol is a blank flank.

[LadyMoondancer]

Actually Cotton Candy's symbol was indeed meant to be an appaloosa pattern.  Originally the plan was that MLPs would be "real horse" colors with real horse patterns.  Then the idea evolved to "fantasy colors" with real-horse patterns.  This is seen in the Year 1 commercial, where ALL the Collector ponies have appaloosa spots, and also on front of the Year 1 backcard, and on this Year 1 brochure:

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By the time they were actually released, someone had come up with the idea of giving them all separate symbols (probably got the idea from Care Bears).  However, Cotton Candy's symbol never changed, so she retained her spots.

I know a lot of people interpret her symbol as little bits of cotton or cotton candy, but in terms of "what did the artist have in mind when they drew it", it's really not meant to be anything but random spots.

Anyway, I think this topic was meant to be a fun hypothetical.

That's really interesting! Never seen that picture before.

It's also got the closest thing Blue Belle, Minty, etc ever got to individual backstories in the US, which is neat.   Not counting Cotton Candy and Blossom, who got "proper" stories when they were rereleased in Year 2.

[brighteyes]

I don't think I'm following you.... to my knowledge there were no prototypes of Cotton Candy or Sweetheart that were released without symbols.  Also, the idea of ponies earning their symbols isn't something that was well established prior to Friendship is Magic.  It's true that it is hinted that Baby Ember has to earn her mark and was released with no symbol but all subsequent baby ponies, even newborns, were released with symbols.  If it's true that a pony has to earn her mark in G1, then why would newborns have symbols, when they cannot even talk yet? 

Actually, you are making the mistake of assuming something that G1 clearly started as something G4 started.

If you look at the back cards before the point where any resembled of story was removed from them, you would see the occasion story that dealt with the different types marks.  The ponies earned their flank symbols or other type of mark rather than be born with them in every 1 of those stories.

Ah. I stand corrected on that one. Doesn't make her a blank flank though. That's strictly a G4 term.

Actually, blank flank simply means: pony without a cutie mark.  The G1 term for cutie marks is flank symbols.  Hence a pony without a flank symbol is a blank flank.

I don't really think I'm making a mistake or misunderstanding anything here.  I've been collecting G1 since the early 80's and watched all the shows as a kid.  I've read most of the back card stories and I literally have no idea where you are getting these ideas.  It's fine for you to have this perception of G1, but it doesn't make it what the creators of G1 actually intended.  Answer my question then- if G1 ponies had to earn their symbols as in G4, why do newborn babies have symbols?  Why is Ember the one and ONLY pony released without a symbol?

ETA:  The idea is so silly... I kind of wonder, are we being trolled here lol

And also, can you please post photos of where Cotton Candy and Sweetheart were released without symbols? 

[invinible]

I don't really think I'm making a mistake or misunderstanding anything here.  I've been collecting G1 since the early 80's and watched all the shows as a kid.  I've read most of the back card stories and I literally have no idea where you are getting these ideas.  It's fine for you to have this perception of G1, but it doesn't make it what the creators of G1 actually intended.  Answer my question then- if G1 ponies had to earn their symbols as in G4, why do newborn babies have symbols?  Why is Ember the one and ONLY pony released without a symbol?

ETA:  The idea is so silly... I kind of wonder, are we being trolled here lol

And also, can you please post photos of where Cotton Candy and Sweetheart were released without symbols? 

Well over here is 1 of the later back cards that show that even as foals, the ponies need to earn their symbols rather than be born with them.

The reason most ponies at the time were being sold with flank symbols on was because of trying to put individuality into the toys since there was so few body shapes and mane styles at the time.

And the reason I put the links in the original post was as additional support that Cotton Candy and Sweetheart were blank flanks during their respective original releases.

[banditpony]

Cotton candy was designed to have something on her behind. Never blank. You contradict yourself.

I think you are trying to say that her spots aren't a symbol? They are. 

Eta: what I'm getting at is that Appaloosa or not, the original release ponies were actually designed to have something there. Never blank or empty. That's not good they were designed.

[Taffeta]

I always find it really interesting that Hasbro began with the spots and then decided against it for the issue. Especially since it made it onto the artwork.

It is Ponyland who has the ...whichever one it is, Bluebelle? with the spots instead of the stars? I certainly remember a discussion about one of these prototypes from the original photo display being probably in the hands of a collector (maybe 2, but it is hard to prove with CC). I think it was Ponyland, but I haven't time to go digging into the archives of the Nirvana forum looking for it right now.

Sweetheart, of course, is a totally different kettle of fish. She's a European pony, commissioned for Europe - the animation probably was also created for Europe, albeit in North America, because of the terminology (Glowing Magical/Glowing Magic rather than Glow & Show) and the prominence of football ("soccer") as the key sport. Hasbro definitely began the core 7/mane 6 idea with the 7 Characters in 1992-4, because you can already see the rereleases for Sweetheart, Starlight and Melody, and from that time period those characters took over the comics here. Aside from a cameo by Princess Sparkle, and maybe Pony Bride..? no other 1992/3 or 1993/4 ponies got the attention prior ponies did. You have to also realise that the animation was really not that important to G1 as a whole. It was especially unimportant in Europe, where it didn't get as much airing and many European countries also had comics of some form which, at least here in the UK, ran on way longer and included more characters than the G1 animation. G4 is a very animation-centric generation. G1 is not.

So yeah, G1 did begin some of the things that G4 identify with now. Of course, the mane 7 in G3 and the (not named but repetitive) Ivy, Sunsparkle/dance SkySkimmer thing indicates a similar line of thought going on then, too. So that idea is really old, even though we tend to think of it as new.

I think the OP is G4-centrically confused, but there are still interesting discussion points in this discussion. I can also see how that G4 ideology could be transferred to Sweetheart because of her "Nurse Pony" incarnation. It's a little different from Melody's and Starlight's (although not a blank, it does maybe hint at an evolution if you want to look at it through the lens of the animation).

But then again, G1 does stuff with symbols quite a lot. Heart Throb loses wings on her hearts, for example, in SS form. Posey gets magenta tulips instead of pastel pink. So I just see it as another form of that - reissues demand changes. 2nd edition Cherries Jubilee got straight hair to match the rest of her 1986 set. Hasbro were attentive to things like that. (And nobody really understands why Aqua and why Lavender Woosie...)

Ember is also not the only pony without a symbol. The white club baby also had no symbol. But the idea of her developing a symbol relating to her future is really a G4 concept. The paraphernalia for the white baby was about the club member adopting her, becoming her 'mummy', giving her a name and, if they wanted, drawing on a symbol to match. Sometimes these are found in the wild with symbols drawn on for that reason, though most often they're not. There was nothing in the club material to dictate who the white baby was going to become, nor any need for her to have a symbol - but her lack of one did mean it was up to her new 'mother' to decide who she was.

The two tiny twins that come with Surprise Twins pony also don't have symbols - albeit that is probably just their size prohibiting it...

Edit to add: I wonder if the confusion for CC at least is coming from that bad screen capture (we all know she has speckles in the animation, but that capture doesn't show it) and the fact G1 stickers didn't display symbols?)

[brighteyes]

I don't really think I'm making a mistake or misunderstanding anything here.  I've been collecting G1 since the early 80's and watched all the shows as a kid.  I've read most of the back card stories and I literally have no idea where you are getting these ideas.  It's fine for you to have this perception of G1, but it doesn't make it what the creators of G1 actually intended.  Answer my question then- if G1 ponies had to earn their symbols as in G4, why do newborn babies have symbols?  Why is Ember the one and ONLY pony released without a symbol?

ETA:  The idea is so silly... I kind of wonder, are we being trolled here lol

And also, can you please post photos of where Cotton Candy and Sweetheart were released without symbols? 

Well over here is 1 of the later back cards that show that even as foals, the ponies need to earn their symbols rather than be born with them.

The reason most ponies at the time were being sold with flank symbols on was because of trying to put individuality into the toys since there was so few body shapes and mane styles at the time.

And the reason I put the links in the original post was as additional support that Cotton Candy and Sweetheart were blank flanks during their respective original releases.

There are no photos of either of those ponies being released, made as toys, without symbols on the link you provided.  The image of Cotton Candy in the RAMC movie is an example of poor animation.  You will notice many, many errors in all of the G1 movies including but not limited to missing symbols, ponies being the wrong color, incorrect voices coming out of ponies etc...  Many of the stories talk about symbols changing or how ponies get their symbols but that doesn't mean all ponies are born without symbols.  What about the babies that are the offspring of adults and have the same symbols?  Did they earn their symbols that looked exactly like their parents?

The toys all had symbols because they were designed that way.  The stories often told stories of why the ponies looked that way because it gave kids a back story to go with their toy.  The term "blank flank" did not exist before G4.  Do you have a back card or a comic that you can point out from the 80's with this exact term?

[Taffeta]

Also, another confusion I noted - Baby Rainfeather's US story mentions hearts appearing on her nappy/diaper, but that isn't her symbol. (Hasbro's official term for symbol is actually rump mark, at least it is here in the UK, I have a bunch of stuff which uses this term.) I can't get at my club stuff right now to see what is said for the white newborn, but I am pretty sure it's just no rump marking if it's even mentioned at all.

There genuinely are ponies whose backcard stories talked about obtaining symbols in relation to an event. But there are also a whole bunch of others relating to things not symbol-linked. For example, the Sparkle Ponies all have stories about how they got their sparkle. I THINK at least the UK cards I have for the Glowing Magic may say this too - how and why they got their glow? And a lot don't mention symbols.

The ones I remember really significantly talking about symbols and such are the Surprise Newborns talking about meeting their 'special friends' and not knowing who they are until their nappies are removed.

But then the Surprise Newborns can have one of 2 symbols each. Which kinda goes against the "identity" element, and more in favour of the 'surprise gimmick' element that Hasbro wanted to make a big deal out of.

And let's not forget that not all ponies were 'born' anyway. Some of them came out of a magic mirror after Majesty cast a spell O.o. (Baby Firefly and Baby Glory, I think..?)

It's an interesting hypothesis but I don't really go with it