How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)

[rosierjay]

I don't know what you read wrong there.  I thought it was quite clear.  I said I don't think it's okay to ostracize someone for owning a recast.  Period.  Basically saying, I don't think it's okay to be mean to someone for owning one.  But that doesn't mean I'm going to spend my money with someone who purposely makes recasts.  Or purposely buys them.  It's not be mean, it's just my choice.  I understand situations where an oopsy happens.  I have friends in other doll companies who have bought a doll sold to them as legit and it be a recast.  Whether it is BJD or Bisque.  It happens.  But I have a lot of friends who make dolls as their job, too, and I know the fear they suffer that their work could be directly impacted because someone purposely recasted a doll they made.   It's not anything made at you personally, or anyone for that matter.  I mean, I don't even buy BJD, but if I were, I would not be buying BJD related goods from someone who owned recasts.  Not to be mean to them, but I'd rather spend my money with someone either directly making original dolls or supporting original doll makers.  It's just a choice, it's not a witch hunt. 

thanks for clarifying.

[SwordPony]

I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.

i'm sorry, i'm not attacking, i'm just trying to understand.
it is ok to ostracize someone who knowing owns a recast?
this is why i suddenly feel like a leper. i've own the one girl for about a month, and now i've been labeled into a group.

Spoiler

and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.

it honestly makes me want to drop the arena altogether, but i love the community here. but i think. ok. people who are anti-recasts will see me in other threads and still be silently judging me for my decisions. i just don't understand. there are people that post things i morally disagree with, but it's not my place to tell them or whatnot.

Please don't feel like you have to leave the Arena. Some people are always going to be witch hunting but don't feel like you have to hide your dolls because of it. They are yours and you love them. there are those of us here that are neutral on the topic and won't turn away just because you own one.

[Phynix]

Yeah a lot of the collectors in my community are a bit on the snobish side of things, like I said it is there loss not mine! I get to find friends who understand and like me and not waste my time on fake people!

I didn't mean to make this convo go a bit weird. I am sorry that happened. Wasn't the intent. Just wanted to inform a few people on what does happen when you get a recast. I am not pro Recast, but I am not 100% anti recast.

As for the law, It is a Parody law. People can Parody items and ideas and get away with it. I think it is actually 50% not 10. IE the DG baby fakies they don't have bum logos if I remember right, they also have one row of hair?

But with BJD they often just rip it directly and it is hard to find that parody line as my Cuprit looks different from another's Cuprit (example) so as these are meant to be customized where is the line? my 2 cents.

Any ways Rosierjay I needs to see your dolls. We need to get together over chat maybe? I am in need of BJD clothes for msd, so I am messaging you!

[Wardah]

So I went to an artist friend of mine and had him recast it. He rook my broken one, made a mold, poured it in resin, fixed the fractures and walla! I have a new crown in Clear Resin for only $50.

I think there is a big difference between recasting a doll part (or having a friend do it if you lack the skills) for yourself and mass producing recasts of full dolls.

[kCherry]

Just wanted to step in here and give you guys a HUGE kudos for actually carrying this discussion in a civil tone for four pages! I think this may be the first recast thread I've seen go this far without shouting or mud-slinging! I'm very proud of my Arena Dollyheads today!!!

rosierjay, while our rules about recast dolls may or may not change in the future our rules about bullying will not EVER! If you ever feel "pushed out" of the Arena by other members please let us know. This is Not tolerated in any way and I hope you never experience anything like it here on this forum.

[Galactica]

I don't think it snobbery to take a firm position against something that I see as really hurtful to artists that I love, and which is becoming increasingly problematic and detrimental to the bjd art doll hobby and to the artists who create the most amazing dolls.

I think it is helpful to read accounts of the doll artists themselves.  Here's one: https://www.facebook.com/neferkane/posts/10152835480899643; here's another http://www.enchantedforum.net/showthread.php?2515-Enchanted-doll-recast/page8 (incredibly, some people try to make the artist feel like she brought it on herself by not producing dolls fast enough- the feeling of entitlement is almost not to be believed)

Just think if you were a professional artist- you spent YEARS sculpting and perfecting your doll, her movement, her face, her look.  You work by yourself or have one employee, but take pride in your work so your dolls are handcrafted and finished- gorgeous works of art.  Then you find out that someone has taken your doll, copied it, and is selling it for less than what it costs you to manufacture it.  Your doll which you made 6 - 10 of a year is now being cranked out with no effort at all by someone who is making a lot of money off of your blood sweat and tears.

It used to be that only the larger BJD companies were being ripped off, (and even the "large" companies like Fairyland are still just a small team of artists) and now even the rarest and most exclusive artist dolls are being copied and sold.  It is driving artists out of the hobby, hurting them financially, making collectors less trustful of each other and making buying/trading/selling dolls a bit of a nightmare-  especially for those dolls which are known to have recasts (which is an increasing number every month).  It's a bad thing that is happening.

That said- I don't think it is appropriate to ban or ostricize or be horrible to someone who may have inadvertently obtained a recast.  Of course not!  Bullying is never okay.

Still, I do think that keeping out discussions, sales and general encouragement of recasts is generally a good thing because the more people think recasts are fine and acceptable, the more likely it is that people will buy recasts and support that industry and more and more dolls will be recast as more and more doll artists drop out of the hobby.  I guess if it were up to me, I'd just let people know as best as I could why recast dolls are hurtful and why it is important not to encourage the practice.  Again, not ban or ostracize, just not support, even if it does bring down accusations of snobbery and such. 

People are very very good at rationalization and will probably believe what they want to believe or what best suits them (we are all guilty of it) regardless of what is said or done or what they read-  but once in a while, people do take it upon themselves to learn more and if just one person learns something new and makes a decision not to support a recast company, well I think it is worth it to keep putting the information out there again and again.

[Emerald]

Aw I don't think anyone meant YOU were being a snob, Galactica. When I agreed with that I meant the bjd community in general and how it seems pretty common to be a little GOTTA ONE UP EVERYONE~ about things there. Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does exist a lot. It's in a lot of collectible communities really.

[Galactica]

Aw I don't think anyone meant YOU were being a snob, Galactica. When I agreed with that I meant the bjd community in general and how it seems pretty common to be a little GOTTA ONE UP EVERYONE~ about things there. Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does exist a lot. It's in a lot of collectible communities really.

Well sure, there are snobs  in any collector group- or at least unpleasant people.  Also sometimes it is easy to jump to conclusions or misunderstand things in online communities- when maybe not everyone explains themselves as artfully as they could, or maybe is just misunderstood anyway, especially since we can't read tone - and so we put on the words the voice we are imagining (whether it is accurate or not). SO easy to misunderstand things... 

I think people showing pix of their fabulous ponies and dolls/dioramas could look like "one upping" or bragging sometimes- and I guess it is bragging of a sorts.  But I guess I like to post pictures of my dolls and things with online communities- because there are VERY FEW people outside those communities that see my weirdo doll pony art and various collections who don't have that look like they think I am absolutely bonkers... Sometimes it is nice to know there are other crazies out there too value the same things you do

I often feel awkward when I go to a big doll meet where there are lots of people I know- but I think that is just because I am somewhat socially awkward anyway, and probably so are at least 3/4 of the people I am interacting with-  I've noticed that it takes about 3 full on "visits" for me to start feeling comfortable with new people 

[ZennaBug]

Like I said before: I don't like that people recast the dolls, but I don't want to exclude someone just because they own one.  Now if that person was actively making and selling recasts, that would be different.  But I'm not going to stop talking to someone just for owning a recast and I personally wouldn't stop buying from someone that I trusted just because of one of their dolls.  If they had another legit doll for sale that had its certificates and such, then that would be ok for me.  Same with selling handmade clothes.  That's an art in itself and I wouldn't stop buying from someone just because of one doll they own. 

As for being given a recast doll as a gift like you were, Phynix, I don't know what I would do.  If my husband (who knows nothing about dolls) bought me one, I don't think I'd have the heart to tell him what it was.  I'd be disappointed (and irritated at whoever sold it to him), but what else would there be to do?  I wouldn't want to sell it and there's a sentimentality with gifts.  It's unlikely that he'll ever try to surprise me with a doll though and if he did want to get me a doll, I think he'd probably have me pick it out.  So I doubt I'll ever find myself in that uncomfortable situation.  Still, I think it's awful that your group cast you out like that because you were honest about your doll.  *shrug*

and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.

Jus because he has no paperwork doesn't mean that he's a recast.    My fourth doll, Brooke, has no documentation of any kind.  I bought her naked, blank, and bald at a doll meet.  She doesn't have her original box or certificate (she's the only one of my dolls without a box and possibly the only one without her certificate too).  I bought her because I loved her and I had never heard of recasts at that time.  Luckily for me, both of her previous owners are active members of that local BJD group and I trust them both (plus the original owner has her box opening pics I found out last year).  I suppose that it could have gone badly for me, though, if I had just bought her from a random person who wasn't trustworthy.  Even so, if I ever want to sell her, I might have a harder time because I don't have her certifications.  I can't imagine selling Brooke though; I adore her!

So your new doll may still be legit, even without his papers.  I don't really know how to tell you how to tell whether or not he is real though.  I mean, you can check inside his head to see if all of the markings are correct, but they can fake those too if someone really wants to.  Usually you'd know by the look and feel of the resin, I guess.  Recasts are usually not as high quality as the originals.  But since you are so new to BJDs, it may be hard to tell.  They fool even experienced people too.  Have you contacted your seller about the paperwork?  Maybe they can give you something.  If someone sold you a recast but passed it off as legit, then that isn't ok!    But it could just be a case of a doll with several owners and the paperwork went missing along the line. 

[Emerald]

My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

[ZennaBug]

I agree, Emerald.  Regardless of my personal feelings about recast dolls, I think that they way some people are treated because of it is a bigger problem.  Threats, exclusion, bullying, etc.  Especially when you consider that a lot of the people who own recasts got them by accident or when they were still new enough to BJDs that they didn't really know about recasts to begin with.  I think there's a big difference between cases like that and the people who are actively producing the recasts, which seems a more appropriate direction to aim the anger.  And even then, sending threats of physical harm is just too extreme.

[Noxxbunny]

My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

If you're on Tumblr, I'm surprised you haven't stumbled upon the recast minefield earlier.
BOTH sides get disgustingly nasty with each other in ways I haven't even seen on much more "hateful" websites. It's almost impressive. In a disturbing sort of way.

[Emerald]

My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

If you're on Tumblr, I'm surprised you haven't stumbled upon the recast minefield earlier.
BOTH sides get disgustingly nasty with each other in ways I haven't even seen on much more "hateful" websites. It's almost impressive. In a disturbing sort of way.

I actually have not been into bjd for over 10 years until like a week ago when I pulled my doll out of storage. I was on DoA all the time in those days and didn't know about re-casts. I'm sure they're not new, but they are new to me. I was on tumblr for steven universe until I followed doll blogs the other night.

[rosierjay]

its funny, when i bought the my second doll. knowing she was (and well still is) a recast, i had no idea how others felt about it. i know people had warned me about recasts, but i figured since i knew it was a recast and not a legit, i didn't think it was a huge problem(cause i didn't have to worry about thinking i was getting a legit and it actually be a recast). And i didn't know about the strong opinions people have about recast. i probably would have never bought a bjd or gotten into the drama if i had known.
i like the dolls, but i'm not sure if it's worth the stress about being careful what and where to post.
I have an account on DoA, that i got several years ago, before i ever owned a doll. i did this week, after reading this thread actually, ask the mods to lock my account. not sure if they have yet, but i'd rather do it myself, then for things to go around and have it done for me. i think i posted 6 times, so no real loss.

this is a hope another legit question. for those that are anti recast and feel very strongly about it.. i understand not buying from me or others that own at all(dolls, ponies, etc). but would you allow me to buy non doll things from you? like ponies? i know it may seem petty, but it's a concern. if you have a pony for sale i've been hunting for, i don't want to offer, of course, if i know i'm going to turned down because our morals don't align. i don't begrudge you for your decision. it's your choice, i just don't want to make it awkward for anyone in the future.


i guess i don't feel strongly about the legit vs recast debate. that is a choice. i think of it like politics, i'm happier not thinking about it. i don't think this is a very responsible or respectful response. honestly. but with where i am emotionally in my life it's what i can manage.
wow reading that over it sounds so overly dramatic. guess to sum up. i just need to time to process and make long term decisions. but i don't know if the "recast" label goes away if you get rid of or smash the dolls.

[Noxxbunny]

My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

If you're on Tumblr, I'm surprised you haven't stumbled upon the recast minefield earlier.
BOTH sides get disgustingly nasty with each other in ways I haven't even seen on much more "hateful" websites. It's almost impressive. In a disturbing sort of way.

I actually have not been into bjd for over 10 years until like a week ago when I pulled my doll out of storage. I was on DoA all the time in those days and didn't know about re-casts. I'm sure they're not new, but they are new to me. I was on tumblr for steven universe until I followed doll blogs the other night.

Then I would just say be prepared to see more of that kind of thing if you search for recast-related stuff on Tumblr. Both sides have their very vocal and very vulgar members. It's not exactly a pretty sight. And this thread was praised for a reason! I too, have never seen a recast discussion go on this long without people name calling and fighting, unfortunately.

this is a hope another legit question. for those that are anti recast and feel very strongly about it.. i understand not buying from me or others that own at all(dolls, ponies, etc). but would you allow me to buy non doll things from you? like ponies? i know it may seem petty, but it's a concern. if you have a pony for sale i've been hunting for, i don't want to offer, of course, if i know i'm going to turned down because our morals don't align. i don't begrudge you for your decision. it's your choice, i just don't want to make it awkward for anyone in the future.

For me personally, they're separate things. Two different markets. I personally don't see any reason to associate the two. They really don't have anything to do with each other.

This is just in regards to regular products and not handmade good or art, but as a seller, I'm sure I've sold things to plenty of people who don't share the same views I do. And I'm sure that also goes for people who have sold to me. But it doesn't matter, really. Any other way and it would just seem unprofessional.