The MLP Arena

Pony Talk => Off Topic => The Dollhouse => Topic started by: Emerald on December 29, 2015, 05:41:37 AM

Title: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 29, 2015, 05:41:37 AM
I don't have any of these (my doll came straight from luts a billion years ago) and didn't even know they existed until I joined some BJD groups recently and saw in the rules that posting them is not allowed. I know the general consensus is that they are art theft and most places are super against them. I was just wondering where those of you on this forum stood when it came to re-cast BJDs.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Vertefae on December 29, 2015, 05:45:19 AM
I don't mind either way honestly. I've owned them in the past and I can't say I never will in the future. I think they serve a certain market.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 29, 2015, 05:58:52 AM
I've been reading more about this this morning and someone mentioned the working conditions etc. of the people making them, and that does make me second guess it more. I feel like they're similar to MLP fakies that are made from the same mold as real ponies but on a larger scale.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: TwistedRiver on December 29, 2015, 07:01:12 AM
I feel like they're similar to MLP fakies that are made from the same mold as real ponies but on a larger scale.
I've usually felt similar to that too, I mean yeah I will almost always prefer an MLP over a fakie but there are the occasional fakies I've liked. Though I don't know that I will seek out recasted dolls, my life will not end if one ends up making its way into my family.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 29, 2015, 07:03:23 AM
I feel like they're similar to MLP fakies that are made from the same mold as real ponies but on a larger scale.
I've usually felt similar to that too, I mean yeah I will almost always prefer an MLP over a fakie but there are the occasional fakies I've liked. Though I don't know that I will seek out recasted dolls, my life will not end if one ends up making its way into my family.
That's where I am right now, too.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: kCherry on December 29, 2015, 07:30:18 AM
  You will discover many different opinions on recast dolls on this forum. I am myself very much for the open, honest exchange of ideas concerning the subject as I believe that an educated buyer is an empowered buyer. I %100 feel that ALL bjd collectors need to be thoroughly aware of the existence of recast dolls.

  **However, as this subject has a history of turning ugly this post serves as a warning.**

Play nice, lovies! :lovey:
Your Doll Mod, Cherry
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 29, 2015, 08:20:50 AM
**However, as this subject has a history of turning ugly this post serves as a warning.**

I had to read this three times before realizing I'm not in trouble.  :blush: I didn't realize this was such a heated topic. Sorry!
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 29, 2015, 08:59:19 AM
Big fat-cat companies like Mattel and Hasbro are not small artists or companies struggling to sell limited or unique products, certainly not handcrafted products- and they steal from each other and everyone else as often as possible and have questionable factory practices which do not make them particularly endearing. Plus, it is unlikely that the sale of some crappy knock-off dolls/ponies in the dollar store is actually hurting their bottom line.

In contrast, BJD companies who painstakingly create, sculpt and then sell their products in small numbers as they are ordered- are absolutely hurt by recasters and the sale of recasts.

Even if the sale of re-casts itself did not impact their bottom line by itself, the fact is that once a company is known to have fairly difficult-to-spot re-casts out in the world, it is likely that that sculpt or doll will not be ordered as much since buyers will know that a) their doll might get questioning looks from people wondering if she or he is a recast; b) re-selling that doll should the owner not bond with the doll ultimately, is probably harder with dolls known to have re-casts out there- since other buyers will not know for sure whether a second hand doll is authentic or not.

Even dolls like those created by Lilycat and Enchanted doll, which are incredibly rare and hard to get, being made by one single person, have been recast.

Recasters are changing the BJD hobby, and not for the better.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: ZennaBug on December 29, 2015, 12:12:04 PM
Recasts are not currently banned on the Arena, because it didn't seem fair to disallow them while we allow fakies and reproductions of MLP items here.  It's something we have discussed quite a few times over the year.

As for my personal opinions on the subject, I just feel like there is a difference between a knockoff pony, which has almost zero effect on a large corporation like Hasbro, and a recast doll.  With BJDs, even the large companies are quite small and some of the artist dolls are completely designed and created by one person.  So when someone recasts the dolls and sells them cheaper than the artists' originals, it drastically affects their source of income.  To me, it's art theft.  If I want a doll who is expensive, then I save up for it until I can buy it.  I would not ever knowingly buy a recast doll; just for moral reasons.

Recasts make me uncomfortable and I have zero interest in owning one of my own, but I am also not interested in starting a witch hunt against people who do own recast dolls.  I don't think that it makes them bad people and it's not really any of my business what you choose to do with their dolls, really.  Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that I have to be a jerk about it.

I think that the biggest problem is when someone recasts dolls and then tries to pass them off as legit.  If I bought a doll and she turned out to be a recast, I would be absolutely furious!
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: PrincessGlitterBloom on December 29, 2015, 12:29:27 PM
I think they're ok in certain cases.
Particularly if the mold's been discontinued or there wasn't enough resin variation for different skintones and the like.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: wystearya on December 29, 2015, 12:30:31 PM

I think that the biggest problem is when someone recasts dolls and then tries to pass them off as legit.  If I bought a doll and she turned out to be a recast, I would be absolutely furious!

Yup.

These resin dolls are not cheap.  I know that when I pay for something like a BJD, I expect high quality.  If I bought a BJD and ended up with a "fakie" recast, I would be very upset!
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 29, 2015, 12:32:50 PM
Recasts are not currently banned on the Arena, because it didn't seem fair to disallow them while we allow fakies and reproductions of MLP items here.  It's something we have discussed quite a few times over the year.

As for my personal opinions on the subject, I just feel like there is a difference between a knockoff pony, which has almost zero effect on a large corporation like Hasbro, and a recast doll.  With BJDs, even the large companies are quite small and some of the artist dolls are completely designed and created by one person.  So when someone recasts the dolls and sells them cheaper than the artists' originals, it drastically affects their source of income.  To me, it's art theft.  If I want a doll who is expensive, then I save up for it until I can buy it.  I would not ever knowingly buy a recast doll; just for moral reasons.

Recasts make me uncomfortable and I have zero interest in owning one of my own, but I am also not interested in starting a witch hunt against people who do own recast dolls.  I don't think that it makes them bad people and it's not really any of my business what you choose to do with their dolls, really.  Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that I have to be a jerk about it.

I think that the biggest problem is when someone recasts dolls and then tries to pass them off as legit.  If I bought a doll and she turned out to be a recast, I would be absolutely furious!

I see it as art theft as well.

I don't think there should be a witch hunt and agree that aspect gets ridiculous at times, but I will admit it saddens me that the Arena is recast friendly and I hope that changes some day.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 29, 2015, 01:03:17 PM
I'm glad I posted this. You have all made some great points. Thank you!
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: SwordPony on December 29, 2015, 01:09:09 PM
Recast are such a double edge sword for people. There are always going to be those that support them and then there are those that are strictly against them. While I am personal neither for or against them. I don't think anyone on here needs to feel like because the own a recast they can't show it or be happy they have it. Especially seeing as the arena is recast friendly at this time. 
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: TwistedRiver on December 29, 2015, 01:19:34 PM
Whether or not I ever end up with a recast, like I said, I don't plan on seeking one out, I do hope that this forum never bans recasts from being shown/discussed.
One of the things I love about the arena is that it is full of so many different people who have different views on a lot of things but despite that it is a friendly and welcoming community that allows each of us to explore our love for what are essentially "toys" in our own way and be able to share this love with others without fear of ridicule or hatred.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: kCherry on December 29, 2015, 01:30:09 PM
**However, as this subject has a history of turning ugly this post serves as a warning.**

I had to read this three times before realizing I'm not in trouble.  :blush: I didn't realize this was such a heated topic. Sorry!

   No worries, Hun! How else would anyone know about the subject if no one ever posted on it? It's an educating topic encompassing dolls that people honestly love, both legit and recast alike. And where there is love, there is passion. And where there is passion there is quite often heat. We just don't want any fires! LOL
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 29, 2015, 02:37:20 PM
i don't mind recast personally. and will probably order one in the future as the darker skin tones aren't always available in the models i like.

i'll admit that i'm afraid to talk about recast at all with most doll collectors, as i don't want to be "run out of town". i know not everyone has this attitude, but i also don't want to cause trouble or stir up emotions when unnecessary.  i currently have one, and i love her to pieces. i did join another forum group that focus' on recast so i feel more comfortable talking about bjds there. they have non recasts as well. and once you get to the sales part, if you don't specify if it's a recast or not the posts are locked or deleted.

it seems like a safe and friendly environment there. yes. i will show a picture of my recast when she is done, and complete with the outfit i'm making her. but that will probably all i'll post about her in this particular forum. why light matches in a forest right? ;)

i don't have strong opinions for or against them at this point, so i bought one, and will probably buy more in the future.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: ZennaBug on December 29, 2015, 02:45:33 PM
Recasts are not currently banned on the Arena, because it didn't seem fair to disallow them while we allow fakies and reproductions of MLP items here.  It's something we have discussed quite a few times over the year.

As for my personal opinions on the subject, I just feel like there is a difference between a knockoff pony, which has almost zero effect on a large corporation like Hasbro, and a recast doll.  With BJDs, even the large companies are quite small and some of the artist dolls are completely designed and created by one person.  So when someone recasts the dolls and sells them cheaper than the artists' originals, it drastically affects their source of income.  To me, it's art theft.  If I want a doll who is expensive, then I save up for it until I can buy it.  I would not ever knowingly buy a recast doll; just for moral reasons.

Recasts make me uncomfortable and I have zero interest in owning one of my own, but I am also not interested in starting a witch hunt against people who do own recast dolls.  I don't think that it makes them bad people and it's not really any of my business what you choose to do with their dolls, really.  Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that I have to be a jerk about it.

I think that the biggest problem is when someone recasts dolls and then tries to pass them off as legit.  If I bought a doll and she turned out to be a recast, I would be absolutely furious!

I see it as art theft as well.

I don't think there should be a witch hunt and agree that aspect gets ridiculous at times, but I will admit it saddens me that the Arena is recast friendly and I hope that changes some day.

Whether or not I ever end up with a recast, like I said, I don't plan on seeking one out, I do hope that this forum never bans recasts from being shown/discussed.
One of the things I love about the arena is that it is full of so many different people who have different views on a lot of things but despite that it is a friendly and welcoming community that allows each of us to explore our love for what are essentially "toys" in our own way and be able to share this love with others without fear of ridicule or hatred.

This is one of the reasons we don't ban them.  Most doll forums ban recasts, but the Arena has always tried to be a place that welcomes everyone without judgement.  And since we are primarily a MLP forum, we didn't feel like we should take a stand on the topic of recasts and risk alienating some of our members, regardless of our personal feelings on the matter.  Plus, if we started banning recast dolls, then we would have to rethink our policies on fakies and resin-cast ponies and such.  Since we aren't really a BJD forum, we thought it would be better to remain neutral on the subject.  :)
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Wardah on December 29, 2015, 05:03:16 PM
I once considered buying a recast of a famous company doll because I don't agree with some companies charging that much when there are other less popular companies who offer a comparable doll for less but then the recasters started copying artist dolls and I couldn't support them after that.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 29, 2015, 05:50:01 PM
what exactly is the difference between a company doll and an artist doll?
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Aliyahbetd on December 29, 2015, 05:55:22 PM
I think other people have already said it better than I could. I don't like recasts and would never buy one, but I'm not about to go on some witch hunt on others' choices. Personally I buy straight from the companies or a dealer like MintonCard or Denverdoll so I don't worry about recasts. I like that my purchase supports some great artists! <3  :lovey:
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Flitter on December 29, 2015, 07:42:55 PM
I am very anti-recast BJD.
I often see pro-recast people try to equate recast bjd with things like knock off handbags, "fakies", downloading music or watching movies online or prop replicas, (not to mention ridiculous entitled arguments like that they don't make enough $ to afford legit) but to me these things are all so different and can't be judged by the same criteria. It's difficult to argue morality. I've been into bjd nearly 10 years and having seen what it's done to the community and market, I will never support recasters or sympathize with anyone's justification for buying recast bjd.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: hannaliten on December 29, 2015, 09:22:09 PM
I am very anti-recast BJD.
I often see pro-recast people try to equate recast bjd with things like knock off handbags, "fakies", downloading music or watching movies online or prop replicas, (not to mention ridiculous entitled arguments like that they don't make enough $ to afford legit) but to me these things are all so different and can't be judged by the same criteria. It's difficult to argue morality. I've been into bjd nearly 10 years and having seen what it's done to the community and market, I will never support recasters or sympathize with anyone's justification for buying recast bjd.

Agreed!
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Noxxbunny on December 30, 2015, 12:35:51 AM
I am very anti-recast BJD.
I often see pro-recast people try to equate recast bjd with things like knock off handbags, "fakies", downloading music or watching movies online or prop replicas, (not to mention ridiculous entitled arguments like that they don't make enough $ to afford legit) but to me these things are all so different and can't be judged by the same criteria. It's difficult to argue morality. I've been into bjd nearly 10 years and having seen what it's done to the community and market, I will never support recasters or sympathize with anyone's justification for buying recast bjd.

Agreed!

Agreed also.

But on a separate note, while I am against recasts, I do still think the witchhunting and the exiling of recast owners on other sites goes too far. I'm not down with the whole "Don't talk to recast owners, don't sell to recast owners(though not selling dolls to them makes sense if the fear is that they're actually a recastER), if you let them come to your meets -you're pro-recast, neutral is the same as pro-recast" thing. :huh: And since I've said that, a lot of those places would now also consider me a recast-sympathizer. I just firmly disagree with the mentality of "You must feel fiery hatred or that means you actually like them".

But yeah, in short, I'd never own a recast. But I wouldn't disown a friend if they had one. At least none of my friends are into BJD, so I have no worries there anyway.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 30, 2015, 01:59:38 AM
I understand why people hate recasts and the people who buy them, but i guess for me, there are bigger problems of hate  in the real, than where someone buys something or when, doesnt compute. On the other hand If you have to justify a purchase you probably shouldn't make it. Whether its to yourself or to others. Have i regretted  decisions, had buyer's remorse. Yeah, but make a decision and stand by it or admit you are wrong.

I do stand by my decision and i don't feel i should have to explain why i made it, as others can't change what i did anyway.
Hope that all makes sense.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 30, 2015, 05:08:09 AM
I totally understand the anti-recast points made here. I can't believe the level of NOPE that people that own them deal with, however. What if they receive one as a gift and don't even know? They can't re-sell it, because that's seen as wrong, and if they keep it they're shunned too? What are they supposed to do?
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: ZennaBug on December 30, 2015, 08:37:39 AM
Before I moved, I went to local doll meets with semi-regularity.  The Colorado BJD group was really active.  There was someone who had a recast doll in the group and we had to be careful not to have that doll in our photos if we posted them on DoA or other pages or we risked being banned just for being in the same room.  It seemed excessive to me.  It was her first doll and she loved him, even though his quality wasn't nearly as good as the legit version would have been.  All of her later dolls were legit, but she bought him before she knew better and he occupied that very special "first doll" place in her heart.  The fact that her doll had to be excluded from group photos so we wouldn't be banned from doll forums and groups just seemed like bullying, really.  So yeah; I definitely don't agree with the total and complete exclusion of recast owners through dolly land.  I don't like recasts, but I don't think that people who own them should be completely outcast and banned from doll gatherings and such.

As a side note, I think that this is the most civil recast discussion in which I've ever taken part.  Just another reason why I rarely bother posting in other forums.  I can get all of the doll discussion that my heart desires right here without all of the drama.  :hug:  Love you guys!

**Edit to add:
what exactly is the difference between a company doll and an artist doll?

A company doll would be from a company like Fairyland, Luts, Volks, Soom, etc.  The companies are relatively small, but are still made of a team of artists.  Artist dolls are the dolls that are made by an artist on their own (or sometimes by a couple of people), but not an entire team.  Lilycat, DaisyDayes, and Atelier Momoni spring to mind, but there are tons of others.  Any doll made by an individual artist instead of a company like that would be considered an artist doll.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 30, 2015, 09:07:34 AM
I am very anti-recast BJD.
I often see pro-recast people try to equate recast bjd with things like knock off handbags, "fakies", downloading music or watching movies online or prop replicas, (not to mention ridiculous entitled arguments like that they don't make enough $ to afford legit) but to me these things are all so different and can't be judged by the same criteria. It's difficult to argue morality. I've been into bjd nearly 10 years and having seen what it's done to the community and market, I will never support recasters or sympathize with anyone's justification for buying recast bjd.

Agreed- also some people have this argument that sounds a lot like "I got a recast because the doll is so rare, or expensive, or hard to get, the company doesn't make enough, I was on the waiting list too long, ect."  but why do these people think they have a right to an artist made doll?  Nobody is entitled to art, even if you want it really bad or can't afford it.  If a bjd artist wants to make amazing dolls at a rate of 10 per year instead of churning out a mediocre product like Hasbro-  why punish them for that? Aren't they allowed to say how they will make their art and how they will conduct their business?  Do we really want small bjd artists driven out of business or heartbroken?

If anyone doesn't think recasting hurts the artists- try reading how the artist feels when they find out the doll they have spent so much labor, money, love, tears created- recast.  Gutted.  I have read many reactions by BJD "companies" (who are very often just one or two people) when the artist learns their beloved creation has been recast. Never have they had any reaction other than feeling completely betrayed/robbed/violated. 

I do understand the Arena's explanation- it is difficult to articulate why a recast MLP is not any worse than a recast doll.  What is the difference? Volume? Handcrafted or finished? Size?  Well, yes. But if the explanation is too complicated, I personally would rather have an environment that does not encourage or say that it is okay to have a recast art doll than one that supports that practice. But of course, I'm not one of the bosses so my opinion is irrelevant.   
 
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Phynix on December 30, 2015, 01:55:03 PM
Funny .... not so funny... recast story and my two cents. Warning it is long.

So many years ago for my birthday my husband was on one of the many BJD forums I use to belong to and he was looking around the sales threads for a doll for me. And here he is searching hard not understanding the terms he was reading, calling a dolly friend of mine in the usa and asking her questions, and calling my gf here in the city asking her things as well. He worked hard on this. Took him over a month to look through all the sites and find a doll he knew I wanted and he could afford as a gift.

So here it is a cute little Soom Beyla Girl He knew that Soom start at 500 and just skyrocket from there depending on size and condition. So he knew when he found her for less then $300.00 USD that something must be wrong with her? When the seller said she didn't have fantasy parts just her unicorn head he thought that was why she was so cheap. He missed the information that she is a recast! (the seller had it in the thread he just didn't understand it)

So he bought it, wrapped her up and I have a new doll. I knew right away when he said she was a soom that she was not. Soom resin is textured a bit, it feels like it is dust pitted it takes paint well and it feels really nice. This girl felt like the bobobie resin, too smooth. (yes different resins feel different) any ways I knew right away, so I asked him to show me who he bought it from so I can give them feedback for shipping her right! (I also wanted to report the recast if it was a site where recasts were not allowed) So here it was on a recast friendly forum it was a stated recast! So I gave her feedback that I felt she needed (she came to us as listed and well packaged no faults there GREAT seller actually, she was very helpful to the husband when he emailed her so no fault on her part!)

Any ways I took her and my Soom Ai with me to a meet and people loved them both, they thought I had a cute little gal and no one knew she was a recast! So I put it out there I told them the truth, we also used her as an example that in less you know your colours and pay attention you will never spot a recast in less told! I was honest and told them the story and people started to look at her and me differently. I was honest with it and would never sell her as anything but a recast if I sell her at all she is important to me.

But because I had a known recast someone told DOA and had me kicked out, I was doped from my community and was not allowed to attend events or meets even. People looked at all my other dolls like they are recasts but I own all of there certificates and know where and when I bought each one (I made a spread sheet after I couldn't remember Adrian's age, my first doll)

Any ways people keep telling me I should throw her out, or break her to pieces. I wont she means to much. Has your husband done that much research into a hobbie for you? I know this is the first time he did that. He originally had planed to put my engagement ring in her head but couldn't figure out how to open it. (she had her wig on and a wig cap on the head so it seamed secure)

So she is my ring box! How romantic is that? Even if it didn't end up in the head.

Any ways that is the story of my Soom Recast, Now for my Recast I bought knowingly... another long story. This is also part of my 2 cents on it.

I am pro Recast in 1 certain area, and that is because of the company who created my doll wouldn't help me. I bought a Soom Cuprit Crown from a recaster. It is the only other thing I own that is recasted, that was bought by me and purposely sought out as a recast.

Quickish story why this is mine. After I was kicked from the forums for owning my Little Ring Box (that is what we called her) any ways I was out on a photoshoot with Cuprit and I dropped her crown. It broke in three pieces and I was devastated. So I got my gf to log into her account on DOA and we searched for a Cuprit Crown for under a 150usd price tag (that is as much as I was willing to spend) but no go on that.

So I contacted Soom and offered them the 150 for the crown and shipping to have a new crown made didn't even need to be the original colour it could be clear or dark blue. I didn't care I just wanted her crown in one piece. I had glued mine back together. But it looked horrible I could see the cracks.

They said no, what is done is done! So I went to an artist friend of mine and had him recast it. He rook my broken one, made a mold, poured it in resin, fixed the fractures and walla! I have a new crown in Clear Resin for only $50.

Was I in the wrong? Most likely but as Soom was not willing to replace and I couldn't find one on DOA I did the next best thing. If soom ever would let me buy a new one close to the original colour I would hop on that in a heart beat!

Any ways it is also marked as recast a small rc etched into the back by the magnet, and her magnet also has RC written and sealed into it. Also to note we still have this mold as he keeps them and he has a feeling I might break this one. Smart man, knows me well. But he doesn't sell the crown to others. He does to me cuz I own the original.

So I am not pro recasting in whole, but I do find it can be useful. In saying that I am not getting rid of My Little Ring Box (sorry not happening people who ask me to need to stop!)

Would I buy a doll knowingly that is a recast. NO! I wouldn't. I also don't buy dolls second hand without documentation on them, or from people I know. I also don't ask people if they are pro recast before buying (happened to my GF when she sold one of her Soom Dolls, compleate set in original box and everything.... really...) that is none of my business if you are or not!

I do how ever agree with the man hunt thing someone mentioned.

BE IT YOU ARE PRO RECAST OR NO TO RECAST YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TREAT PEOPLE POORLY!

I still get called names, and no one will talk with me in my community. If I make it to a convention they wont even stop to chat cuz they have labelled me as a horrible person. (I don't think I am at least). I have done so much for our community in the past but they all forgot about it.

I use to run workshops on care for BJD, and I could clean ANYTHING off of a BJD. I mean anything! I got permanent marker off of one without sanding her. 

But as soon as I owned a Recast and stated as much I get treated poorly. I got kicked out of DOA for owning one (even though I never posted that on DOA or posted pictures of her there)

So I am pro artist not pro recaster even if I went and had a piece recasted for my own use! (Is that really any different? hn...)

Being pro artist will I get rid of the two recast Pieces I own. NO! My husband did an amazing thing, and the crown. well I tried to get the company to fix the issue. And I did look to buy a new one from another owner. So I did what I could to replace it legit like, and it is clearly marked as a recast.

I don't know recast is a sticky situation Please remember if you are pro or no! We are all still people and should be treated as such.

Sorry this is long!

Edit to add; I wanted to say some people in my local still talk to me, but many of them do not. I am actually not overly hurt by this, I just find it sad that they let that come between what could have been a good friendship!
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 30, 2015, 02:22:47 PM
*hugs* wow! intense.
i don't understand the need for the labels. i know many people will probably never buy a vinyl doll from me again either now that i have a recast. that's fine they don't have to, as i'm not selling my bjd on here anyway. i guess i'll stick with ebay. i dont think i'll need to label myself as a recast owner as some mh fans don't do bjd too.
it just seems like more segregation and hatred. and i don't understand what the end goal is supposed to be.

anyway thank you for sharing your story Phynix.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 30, 2015, 02:34:46 PM
Phynx I think you were treated very poorly and I'm sorry your doll group did that to you.  I do think that the recast witch hunt phenomena that happens can be extreme and ridiculous.  I think it is particularly bad when doll groups fling unbased accusations at innocent parties.

But... I do understand the idea behind not allowing in a social group (ie DOA which is so huge) people to openly own, sell, share photos of,  recast dolls.  Doing those things SUPPORTS recasters because it implies that having recast dolls is okay.

I know there are lots of people that just don't get why having a recast art doll hurts both the artist and the hobby while supporting an art thief.  But maybe those people might STILL hesitate before buying a recast doll (or before buying a doll that they do not know one way or the other if it is legit) if they thought they wouldn't be able to happily or easily share those dolls with their social networking groups. So then the recasters make less money and more people by legit art dolls.

I would compare it to owning a counterfit of a well known and living artist. Regardless of whether you personally enjoy the painting or not, or whether you knew it was counterfit when it was given to you- if you KNEW it was a counterfit, you probably would not want to post photos of it and share it with other art collectors right?  At least that's how I see it.

I don't think however that there is ever any call to be nasty to other people.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 30, 2015, 03:22:21 PM
this is a question for the anti-recaster, and i hope it doesn't come off as rude, but i think this is a legit question.
let's say you know an etsy seller has a recast, but the things they sell are clothes, shoes, wigs and the like, all homemade, would you still avoid buying from them?
I would just like to be aware, as if i decide to make and sell clothes, i'll keep them out of places that people could pm me about it.

i think the only main way people, aside from here, would know is i would probably use my doll to model the clothes for pictures. as that's kinda how its usually done.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 30, 2015, 04:09:50 PM
this is a question for the anti-recaster, and i hope it doesn't come off as rude, but i think this is a legit question.
let's say you know an etsy seller has a recast, but the things they sell are clothes, shoes, wigs and the like, all homemade, would you still avoid buying from them?
I would just like to be aware, as if i decide to make and sell clothes, i'll keep them out of places that people could pm me about it.

i think the only main way people, aside from here, would know is i would probably use my doll to model the clothes for pictures. as that's kinda how its usually done.

Well I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I guess if I knew that the shop or person supported bjd recasters and recast dolls, I probably would avoid them if I could.  Of course that would require that I first know the seller is a recaster or recast supporter, which is of course not usually obvious. 

Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 30, 2015, 04:12:41 PM
meh. it's beyond hurt feelings. so don't worry about that.
just good to know. guess you wouldn't buy anything from me again as well. not taking it a personal affront, but i would like to know. i probably won't post things for sale in the forum anymore, if i have to worry about it.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Vertefae on December 30, 2015, 04:18:24 PM
Phynix thank you for sharing that. I am so sorry your group acted that way. My local group is extremely anti recast. It wouldn't surprise me if they were the kind to smash a recast.

To me and please this is only my opinion. I think everyone should be able to buy dolls if they want. A lot of BJD people are absolute snobs. Or at least come off that way. If you can't afford the most expensive doll with the most expensive eyes and wig you're not good enough. Many, many luxury goods have knock offs.

The only recast I would never buy are recast art dolls. But if it's a company well that's a part of doing business. It's harsh but the truth.

Roserjay- please don't feel like you have to hide your dolls or not post things for sale. Many of us here are neutral or pro recast. We're happy to buy from everyone.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 30, 2015, 04:36:36 PM
A lot of BJD people are absolute snobs. Or at least come off that way.

 :whistle: I didn't say it, buuuuuuuut...  ;)
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: MiRaja on December 30, 2015, 04:46:48 PM
I don't think a person who owns a recast is horrible.  Nor would I treat them badly.  I would probably avoid buying from a person purposely buying recasts, however. 

I'm with the arguments regarding Hasbro and Mattel recasts not really harming a mass corporation's bottom line, but BJD is produced by small groups or single individuals.  I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.  Whether it be someone bought it for them, or it was a first buy and they didn't honestly know.  What is done is done, and I don't think something should then just be destroyed. 

That said, I do wonder what the procedure would be here, if a member here was a doll artist, say, made their own bjd, say like Batchix or what not, and then someone else came along, recasted their doll, and was selling recasts, or someone was selling a recast of their doll?  What would the arena do then?  Would it still be okay with recasts even if it was directly harming a member of the arena?  Just a question, really. 

I do not collect modern BJD, I do work with bisque German and French dolls, and honestly, recast does even come up in my circles.  Just today, I was talking with a few people about their dream dolls and how careful they have to be since there was a glut of recasting done in the 1960's, and that they were easier to spot back then because of their newness, but now that those recasts are nearly 60 years old, they've got patina, and they pass much easier for the real things( We're talking recast French Fashion dolls, or Jumeaus.  Think about dropping $10k on a doll, only to find out it's fake.  Enough to make a person weep! ).  It makes me wonder how modern BJD's will be in the future.  I would highly suggest someone or somebuddies to be compiling information NOW into some sort of book or archive that is a one-hit spot for identifying BJD dolls and what's real, what's not, and what is trademark for one company and what isn't for another.  With bisque it can be so hard, because there is so many sources, and a lot of it just what so-and-so said because no one bothered to keep any notes or information much on these dolls back in the 1850's-1920's. . .! 

It does make me fearful for the BJD community when there seems to be such an epidemic of fakes floating around already. 
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 30, 2015, 04:59:41 PM
I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.
i'm sorry, i'm not attacking, i'm just trying to understand.
it is ok to ostracize someone who knowing owns a recast?
this is why i suddenly feel like a leper. i've own the one girl for about a month, and now i've been labeled into a group.
Spoiler
and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.
it honestly makes me want to drop the arena altogether, but i love the community here. but i think. ok. people who are anti-recasts will see me in other threads and still be silently judging me for my decisions. i just don't understand. there are people that post things i morally disagree with, but it's not my place to tell them or whatnot.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 30, 2015, 05:04:28 PM
Are there ways to spot a fake? How can you tell from photos? I understand a lot of recasts are bad quality and/or different resin than the originals, so you can tell by feel, but how do people know when someone posts in a forum and they don't tell you?
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: wystearya on December 30, 2015, 05:06:22 PM
meh. it's beyond hurt feelings. so don't worry about that.
just good to know. guess you wouldn't buy anything from me again as well. not taking it a personal affront, but i would like to know. i probably won't post things for sale in the forum anymore, if i have to worry about it.

Just for owning a recast?   I am guessing you didn't know it was recast when you bought it, right?

I don't think I could do that to someone.  Not just for owning something. 
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 30, 2015, 05:09:33 PM
I'm sorry for having 100 questions going at once in this thread, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. If stealing is wrong, it's wrong. It shoudn't matter if you steal from a big company or a small artist, right? Saying fakies from stolen Hasboro molds are okay and re-casts are not is like saying it's cool to steal stuff from Wal-Mart but not from your grandmother. I don't understand the thought process behind one being okay and not the other. To me either both are okay or neither is, if the bottom line is that both are theft.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: wystearya on December 30, 2015, 05:15:09 PM
I'm sorry for having 100 questions going at once in this thread, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. If stealing is wrong, it's wrong. It shoudn't matter if you steal from a big company or a small artist, right? Saying fakies from stolen Hasboro molds are okay and re-casts are not is like saying it's cool to steal stuff from Wal-Mart but not from your grandmother. I don't understand the thought process behind one being okay and not the other. To me either both are okay or neither is, if the bottom line is that both are theft.

I *think* with fakie MLPs the law states that if the company changes the toy by a certain percent (like 10 percent different) then it's not stealing.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong!!!  >> Not that I think this is ok (morally), but it is legal.

In the case of recasts, they are trying to look 100% the same.  They want to replicate the original as closely as possible.  It's like getting a "Folex" (Fake Rolex) watch.  The quality is not the same, and it hurts the real brand's reputation.  At least, this is my opinion on it.

Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 30, 2015, 05:27:29 PM
I'm sorry for having 100 questions going at once in this thread, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. If stealing is wrong, it's wrong. It shoudn't matter if you steal from a big company or a small artist, right? Saying fakies from stolen Hasboro molds are okay and re-casts are not is like saying it's cool to steal stuff from Wal-Mart but not from your grandmother. I don't understand the thought process behind one being okay and not the other. To me either both are okay or neither is, if the bottom line is that both are theft.

I *think* with fakie MLPs the law states that if the company changes the toy by a certain percent (like 10 percent different) then it's not stealing.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong!!!

In the case of recasts, they are trying to look 100% the same.  They want to replicate the original as closely as possible.  It's like getting a "Folex" (Fake Rolex) watch.  The quality is not the same, and it hurts the real brand's reputation.  At least, this is my opinion on it.

I meant more how people separate the two in their minds. Do those of you who are firmly anti-recast shop at Hot Topic? They regularly steal from artists and give no credit or compensation. I know they've had a lot of fancy funko ponies and people love them. Would someone not trade or sell to a pony fan who had these, since they bought them from a company that supports stealing from artists?

I hope none of these comments are coming off as combative. I'm genuinely curious how these different types of "theft" are viewed, and why some seem accepted or more justified than others.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: MiRaja on December 30, 2015, 06:02:48 PM
I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.
i'm sorry, i'm not attacking, i'm just trying to understand.
it is ok to ostracize someone who knowing owns a recast?
this is why i suddenly feel like a leper. i've own the one girl for about a month, and now i've been labeled into a group.
Spoiler
and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.
it honestly makes me want to drop the arena altogether, but i love the community here. but i think. ok. people who are anti-recasts will see me in other threads and still be silently judging me for my decisions. i just don't understand. there are people that post things i morally disagree with, but it's not my place to tell them or whatnot.

I don't know what you read wrong there.  I thought it was quite clear.  I said I don't think it's okay to ostracize someone for owning a recast.  Period.  Basically saying, I don't think it's okay to be mean to someone for owning one.  But that doesn't mean I'm going to spend my money with someone who purposely makes recasts.  Or purposely buys them.  It's not be mean, it's just my choice.  I understand situations where an oopsy happens.  I have friends in other doll companies who have bought a doll sold to them as legit and it be a recast.  Whether it is BJD or Bisque.  It happens.  But I have a lot of friends who make dolls as their job, too, and I know the fear they suffer that their work could be directly impacted because someone purposely recasted a doll they made.   It's not anything made at you personally, or anyone for that matter.  I mean, I don't even buy BJD, but if I were, I would not be buying BJD related goods from someone who owned recasts.  Not to be mean to them, but I'd rather spend my money with someone either directly making original dolls or supporting original doll makers.  It's just a choice, it's not a witch hunt. 

To the rest of the thread:

And to me, it is a shades of grey situation, even if I in no way support any sort of recast or remaking of anything.  Someone else was right when they said Hasbro and Mattel have been ripping each other off long enough, and Hasbro started off as a knock off company!  That's the hilarity there, to me, if anyone wants some dolly history.  Mattel was also a company that started up by knocking a bunch of other dolls off, and Barbie only became what she did because she was cheaper than the rest of the similar dolls because Mattel made their toys overseas in HongKong to under sell the competition and actually put several different companies out of business. 

Someone making recast of an 80's MLP for funzies and selling it for, or under value of time and materials is not at all the same as someone recasting a doll, in production, and selling it at still a hefty profit, but still underselling the original artist.  Not that I support either, or own anything of either.  I just don't see it in the same vein.  One is probably sketchy, and the other is just wrong.  I can't fault someone for wanting to experiment and make their take on an out of production toy when I want to make a mold of a dolly's head from the 1930's, and make my own ball jointed body and create my own frankendoll.  Not for profit, but for funzies, out of a toy that's probably older than most people's grandparents, to the point that no patent even exists for the item that I can find ( trust me, I've hunted it down long and hard just for reason's sake ). 

And honestly?  I support corporations as little as possible.  I don't shop from chains well known for ripping off people's art.  Like Hot Topic, like Forever 22.  I don't ever shop with brands who steal cultural, ethnic or other such designs and call it Haute Couture.  Honestly, I shop mostly thrift and wear vintage most of the time, and firmly believe in supporting small business, and that really does trickle down to how I feel about treating artists.  I am person who potentially could become a doll maker.  Currently, I just repair, and I know the sort of work that goes into sculpting and it's. . .hard.  It's not easy to do, and I really emphasize with the people who make such art and I understand why they ask the prices they do.  You're paying for all the time it took them to learn how to make that craft.  Not just for the time in the doll's mock up.  Or the materials.  Or for the small studio's employees to be paid correctly.  I think it's too easy to not think of these small studios as people as many of them are overseas.  We never see them face to face, we don't realize that these are people's lives, and it means they might not be able to pay their bills or feed their families because someone inconsiderate copied something they made. . .  And as I've stated multiple times; I do not even own a single modern BJD.  I've seen a couple I like, but never have purchased because there IS so much to know and there are SO many recasts, and I would definitely be heartbroken to get a fake.  So, think about that:  A lot of people refuse to get into BJD because of the fear of recasts.  I would honestly rather see more happening to restrict people who are recasting, not necessarily those who own recasts. 
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 30, 2015, 06:10:30 PM
I don't shop from chains well known for ripping off people's art.  Like Hot Topic, like Forever 22.  I don't ever shop with brands who steal cultural, ethnic or other such designs and call it Haute Couture.

I totally respect this.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 30, 2015, 06:14:21 PM

I don't know what you read wrong there.  I thought it was quite clear.  I said I don't think it's okay to ostracize someone for owning a recast.  Period.  Basically saying, I don't think it's okay to be mean to someone for owning one.  But that doesn't mean I'm going to spend my money with someone who purposely makes recasts.  Or purposely buys them.  It's not be mean, it's just my choice.  I understand situations where an oopsy happens.  I have friends in other doll companies who have bought a doll sold to them as legit and it be a recast.  Whether it is BJD or Bisque.  It happens.  But I have a lot of friends who make dolls as their job, too, and I know the fear they suffer that their work could be directly impacted because someone purposely recasted a doll they made.   It's not anything made at you personally, or anyone for that matter.  I mean, I don't even buy BJD, but if I were, I would not be buying BJD related goods from someone who owned recasts.  Not to be mean to them, but I'd rather spend my money with someone either directly making original dolls or supporting original doll makers.  It's just a choice, it's not a witch hunt. 

thanks for clarifying.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: SwordPony on December 30, 2015, 06:15:20 PM
I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.
i'm sorry, i'm not attacking, i'm just trying to understand.
it is ok to ostracize someone who knowing owns a recast?
this is why i suddenly feel like a leper. i've own the one girl for about a month, and now i've been labeled into a group.
Spoiler
and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.
it honestly makes me want to drop the arena altogether, but i love the community here. but i think. ok. people who are anti-recasts will see me in other threads and still be silently judging me for my decisions. i just don't understand. there are people that post things i morally disagree with, but it's not my place to tell them or whatnot.

Please don't feel like you have to leave the Arena. Some people are always going to be witch hunting but don't feel like you have to hide your dolls because of it. They are yours and you love them. there are those of us here that are neutral on the topic and won't turn away just because you own one. :hug:
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Phynix on December 30, 2015, 07:20:06 PM
Yeah a lot of the collectors in my community are a bit on the snobish side of things, like I said it is there loss not mine! I get to find friends who understand and like me and not waste my time on fake people!

I didn't mean to make this convo go a bit weird. I am sorry that happened. Wasn't the intent. Just wanted to inform a few people on what does happen when you get a recast. I am not pro Recast, but I am not 100% anti recast.

As for the law, It is a Parody law. People can Parody items and ideas and get away with it. I think it is actually 50% not 10. IE the DG baby fakies they don't have bum logos if I remember right, they also have one row of hair?

But with BJD they often just rip it directly and it is hard to find that parody line as my Cuprit looks different from another's Cuprit (example) so as these are meant to be customized where is the line? my 2 cents.

Any ways Rosierjay I needs to see your dolls. We need to get together over chat maybe? I am in need of BJD clothes for msd, so I am messaging you!

Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Wardah on December 30, 2015, 11:21:39 PM
So I went to an artist friend of mine and had him recast it. He rook my broken one, made a mold, poured it in resin, fixed the fractures and walla! I have a new crown in Clear Resin for only $50.

I think there is a big difference between recasting a doll part (or having a friend do it if you lack the skills) for yourself and mass producing recasts of full dolls.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: kCherry on December 31, 2015, 08:17:32 AM
Just wanted to step in here and give you guys a HUGE kudos for actually carrying this discussion in a civil tone for four pages! I think this may be the first recast thread I've seen go this far without shouting or mud-slinging! I'm very proud of my Arena Dollyheads today!!! :lovey:

rosierjay, while our rules about recast dolls may or may not change in the future our rules about bullying will not EVER! If you ever feel "pushed out" of the Arena by other members please let us know. This is Not tolerated in any way and I hope you never experience anything like it here on this forum. :hug:


Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 31, 2015, 10:09:05 AM
I don't think it snobbery to take a firm position against something that I see as really hurtful to artists that I love, and which is becoming increasingly problematic and detrimental to the bjd art doll hobby and to the artists who create the most amazing dolls.

I think it is helpful to read accounts of the doll artists themselves.  Here's one: https://www.facebook.com/neferkane/posts/10152835480899643; here's another http://www.enchantedforum.net/showthread.php?2515-Enchanted-doll-recast/page8 (incredibly, some people try to make the artist feel like she brought it on herself by not producing dolls fast enough- the feeling of entitlement is almost not to be believed)

Just think if you were a professional artist- you spent YEARS sculpting and perfecting your doll, her movement, her face, her look.  You work by yourself or have one employee, but take pride in your work so your dolls are handcrafted and finished- gorgeous works of art.  Then you find out that someone has taken your doll, copied it, and is selling it for less than what it costs you to manufacture it.  Your doll which you made 6 - 10 of a year is now being cranked out with no effort at all by someone who is making a lot of money off of your blood sweat and tears.

It used to be that only the larger BJD companies were being ripped off, (and even the "large" companies like Fairyland are still just a small team of artists) and now even the rarest and most exclusive artist dolls are being copied and sold.  It is driving artists out of the hobby, hurting them financially, making collectors less trustful of each other and making buying/trading/selling dolls a bit of a nightmare-  especially for those dolls which are known to have recasts (which is an increasing number every month).  It's a bad thing that is happening.

That said- I don't think it is appropriate to ban or ostricize or be horrible to someone who may have inadvertently obtained a recast.  Of course not!  Bullying is never okay.

Still, I do think that keeping out discussions, sales and general encouragement of recasts is generally a good thing because the more people think recasts are fine and acceptable, the more likely it is that people will buy recasts and support that industry and more and more dolls will be recast as more and more doll artists drop out of the hobby.  I guess if it were up to me, I'd just let people know as best as I could why recast dolls are hurtful and why it is important not to encourage the practice.  Again, not ban or ostracize, just not support, even if it does bring down accusations of snobbery and such. 

People are very very good at rationalization and will probably believe what they want to believe or what best suits them (we are all guilty of it) regardless of what is said or done or what they read-  but once in a while, people do take it upon themselves to learn more and if just one person learns something new and makes a decision not to support a recast company, well I think it is worth it to keep putting the information out there again and again.

Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 31, 2015, 10:17:20 AM
Aw I don't think anyone meant YOU were being a snob, Galactica. When I agreed with that I meant the bjd community in general and how it seems pretty common to be a little GOTTA ONE UP EVERYONE~ about things there. Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does exist a lot. It's in a lot of collectible communities really.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Galactica on December 31, 2015, 11:59:51 AM
Aw I don't think anyone meant YOU were being a snob, Galactica. When I agreed with that I meant the bjd community in general and how it seems pretty common to be a little GOTTA ONE UP EVERYONE~ about things there. Obviously it doesn't apply to everyone, but it does exist a lot. It's in a lot of collectible communities really.

Well sure, there are snobs  in any collector group- or at least unpleasant people.  Also sometimes it is easy to jump to conclusions or misunderstand things in online communities- when maybe not everyone explains themselves as artfully as they could, or maybe is just misunderstood anyway, especially since we can't read tone - and so we put on the words the voice we are imagining (whether it is accurate or not). SO easy to misunderstand things... 

I think people showing pix of their fabulous ponies and dolls/dioramas could look like "one upping" or bragging sometimes- and I guess it is bragging of a sorts.  But I guess I like to post pictures of my dolls and things with online communities- because there are VERY FEW people outside those communities that see my weirdo doll pony art and various collections who don't have that look like they think I am absolutely bonkers... Sometimes it is nice to know there are other crazies out there too value the same things you do :D

I often feel awkward when I go to a big doll meet where there are lots of people I know- but I think that is just because I am somewhat socially awkward anyway, and probably so are at least 3/4 of the people I am interacting with-  I've noticed that it takes about 3 full on "visits" for me to start feeling comfortable with new people  :blush:
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: ZennaBug on December 31, 2015, 12:04:07 PM
Like I said before: I don't like that people recast the dolls, but I don't want to exclude someone just because they own one.  Now if that person was actively making and selling recasts, that would be different.  But I'm not going to stop talking to someone just for owning a recast and I personally wouldn't stop buying from someone that I trusted just because of one of their dolls.  If they had another legit doll for sale that had its certificates and such, then that would be ok for me.  Same with selling handmade clothes.  That's an art in itself and I wouldn't stop buying from someone just because of one doll they own. 

As for being given a recast doll as a gift like you were, Phynix, I don't know what I would do.  If my husband (who knows nothing about dolls) bought me one, I don't think I'd have the heart to tell him what it was.  I'd be disappointed (and irritated at whoever sold it to him), but what else would there be to do?  I wouldn't want to sell it and there's a sentimentality with gifts.  It's unlikely that he'll ever try to surprise me with a doll though and if he did want to get me a doll, I think he'd probably have me pick it out.  So I doubt I'll ever find myself in that uncomfortable situation.  Still, I think it's awful that your group cast you out like that because you were honest about your doll.  *shrug*

and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.

Jus because he has no paperwork doesn't mean that he's a recast.  :hug:  My fourth doll, Brooke, has no documentation of any kind.  I bought her naked, blank, and bald at a doll meet.  She doesn't have her original box or certificate (she's the only one of my dolls without a box and possibly the only one without her certificate too).  I bought her because I loved her and I had never heard of recasts at that time.  Luckily for me, both of her previous owners are active members of that local BJD group and I trust them both (plus the original owner has her box opening pics I found out last year).  I suppose that it could have gone badly for me, though, if I had just bought her from a random person who wasn't trustworthy.  Even so, if I ever want to sell her, I might have a harder time because I don't have her certifications.  I can't imagine selling Brooke though; I adore her!

So your new doll may still be legit, even without his papers.  I don't really know how to tell you how to tell whether or not he is real though.  I mean, you can check inside his head to see if all of the markings are correct, but they can fake those too if someone really wants to.  Usually you'd know by the look and feel of the resin, I guess.  Recasts are usually not as high quality as the originals.  But since you are so new to BJDs, it may be hard to tell.  They fool even experienced people too.  Have you contacted your seller about the paperwork?  Maybe they can give you something.  If someone sold you a recast but passed it off as legit, then that isn't ok!  :(  But it could just be a case of a doll with several owners and the paperwork went missing along the line.  :hug:
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 31, 2015, 12:11:45 PM
My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: ZennaBug on December 31, 2015, 12:32:59 PM
I agree, Emerald.  Regardless of my personal feelings about recast dolls, I think that they way some people are treated because of it is a bigger problem.  Threats, exclusion, bullying, etc.  Especially when you consider that a lot of the people who own recasts got them by accident or when they were still new enough to BJDs that they didn't really know about recasts to begin with.  I think there's a big difference between cases like that and the people who are actively producing the recasts, which seems a more appropriate direction to aim the anger.  And even then, sending threats of physical harm is just too extreme.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Noxxbunny on December 31, 2015, 12:44:13 PM
My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

If you're on Tumblr, I'm surprised you haven't stumbled upon the recast minefield earlier. :blink:
BOTH sides get disgustingly nasty with each other in ways I haven't even seen on much more "hateful" websites. It's almost impressive. In a disturbing sort of way.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on December 31, 2015, 12:47:52 PM
My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

If you're on Tumblr, I'm surprised you haven't stumbled upon the recast minefield earlier. :blink:
BOTH sides get disgustingly nasty with each other in ways I haven't even seen on much more "hateful" websites. It's almost impressive. In a disturbing sort of way.

I actually have not been into bjd for over 10 years until like a week ago when I pulled my doll out of storage. I was on DoA all the time in those days and didn't know about re-casts. I'm sure they're not new, but they are new to me. I was on tumblr for steven universe until I followed doll blogs the other night.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: rosierjay on December 31, 2015, 01:46:16 PM
its funny, when i bought the my second doll. knowing she was (and well still is) a recast, i had no idea how others felt about it. i know people had warned me about recasts, but i figured since i knew it was a recast and not a legit, i didn't think it was a huge problem(cause i didn't have to worry about thinking i was getting a legit and it actually be a recast). And i didn't know about the strong opinions people have about recast. i probably would have never bought a bjd or gotten into the drama if i had known. XD
i like the dolls, but i'm not sure if it's worth the stress about being careful what and where to post.
I have an account on DoA, that i got several years ago, before i ever owned a doll. i did this week, after reading this thread actually, ask the mods to lock my account. not sure if they have yet, but i'd rather do it myself, then for things to go around and have it done for me. i think i posted 6 times, so no real loss.

this is a hope another legit question. for those that are anti recast and feel very strongly about it.. i understand not buying from me or others that own at all(dolls, ponies, etc). but would you allow me to buy non doll things from you? like ponies? i know it may seem petty, but it's a concern. if you have a pony for sale i've been hunting for, i don't want to offer, of course, if i know i'm going to turned down because our morals don't align. i don't begrudge you for your decision. it's your choice, i just don't want to make it awkward for anyone in the future.


i guess i don't feel strongly about the legit vs recast debate. that is a choice. i think of it like politics, i'm happier not thinking about it. i don't think this is a very responsible or respectful response. honestly. but with where i am emotionally in my life it's what i can manage.
wow reading that over it sounds so overly dramatic. guess to sum up. i just need to time to process and make long term decisions. but i don't know if the "recast" label goes away if you get rid of or smash the dolls.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Noxxbunny on December 31, 2015, 05:26:37 PM
My personal thought process with the buying from people with re-casts...idk...I think if they were selling them as legit dolls and lying to people it would make sense to not trust them and not want to buy anything from them as they would have proven themselves dishonest as sellers. To not buy clothes or something from somebody because they OWN recasts? For me that seems like overkill. Everyone has their own opinion, though, and nobody really has the right to tell someone that their feelings are invalid. At the end of the day we all are just people who love dolls and I think that's the important thing. They make us happy, so I think trying to keep the fandom welcoming and positive while striving to inform people of the negative side of these copied dolls is the way to keep from alienating.

I saw someone on tumblr the other night say some HORRIBLE things about people who own recasts. Borderline threats of bodily harm. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and inexcusable.

If you're on Tumblr, I'm surprised you haven't stumbled upon the recast minefield earlier. :blink:
BOTH sides get disgustingly nasty with each other in ways I haven't even seen on much more "hateful" websites. It's almost impressive. In a disturbing sort of way.

I actually have not been into bjd for over 10 years until like a week ago when I pulled my doll out of storage. I was on DoA all the time in those days and didn't know about re-casts. I'm sure they're not new, but they are new to me. I was on tumblr for steven universe until I followed doll blogs the other night.

Then I would just say be prepared to see more of that kind of thing if you search for recast-related stuff on Tumblr. Both sides have their very vocal and very vulgar members. It's not exactly a pretty sight. :huh: And this thread was praised for a reason! I too, have never seen a recast discussion go on this long without people name calling and fighting, unfortunately.


this is a hope another legit question. for those that are anti recast and feel very strongly about it.. i understand not buying from me or others that own at all(dolls, ponies, etc). but would you allow me to buy non doll things from you? like ponies? i know it may seem petty, but it's a concern. if you have a pony for sale i've been hunting for, i don't want to offer, of course, if i know i'm going to turned down because our morals don't align. i don't begrudge you for your decision. it's your choice, i just don't want to make it awkward for anyone in the future.


For me personally, they're separate things. Two different markets. I personally don't see any reason to associate the two. They really don't have anything to do with each other.

This is just in regards to regular products and not handmade good or art, but as a seller, I'm sure I've sold things to plenty of people who don't share the same views I do. And I'm sure that also goes for people who have sold to me. But it doesn't matter, really. Any other way and it would just seem unprofessional.

Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Wardah on December 31, 2015, 09:56:05 PM
Too bad so much drama about recasts tho. I can think of a reason where it would be beneficial. Recasts would make great clothing dummies. Like if a doll clothes maker isn't too crazy about a BJD with odd size measurements but wants to make clothes that fit the odd sized doll as well they are stuck buying a doll they don't like.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Loona on January 01, 2016, 03:19:50 PM
Too bad so much drama about recasts tho. I can think of a reason where it would be beneficial. Recasts would make great clothing dummies. Like if a doll clothes maker isn't too crazy about a BJD with odd size measurements but wants to make clothes that fit the odd sized doll as well they are stuck buying a doll they don't like.
I thought about this too while reading through this thread. what if someone who makes clothes for BJD wanted to offer several size options and needed different-sized dolls for measuring and modeling purposes? buying several legit dolls just because of this would be a financial disaster most likely. measurements can of course be requested from other owners, but clothes (not only in dolly size btw) usually sell better when they are modeled on actual dolls, not just pictured laying flat.

please note that this question was born out of curiosity from reading the posts here, in the head of an outsider. I really don't have any opinion about this, I am just curious :) I do not own a BJD, and I do not think I ever will. I have been adoring them in pictures for over 15 years now, but for several reasons I do not wish to own one. and for the clothing part, while I do occasionally make doll clothes myself and sometimes have thoughts of trying my hands out at sewing and selling, I am not planning to make clothes for BJD, because my interest in sewing comes from my own interest, and I don't have any interest in sewing for other types of dolls than the ones I like and own. I also can't imagine having a doll or dolls around solely for measuring and modeling purposes, doll collecting is about something else for me. but I do know there are people who sew clothes for (fashion) dolls, and own some dolls solely for these purposes.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Hervoyel on January 02, 2016, 02:04:45 PM
I thought about this too while reading through this thread. what if someone who makes clothes for BJD wanted to offer several size options and needed different-sized dolls for measuring and modeling purposes? buying several legit dolls just because of this would be a financial disaster most likely. measurements can of course be requested from other owners, but clothes (not only in dolly size btw) usually sell better when they are modeled on actual dolls, not just pictured laying flat.

The flip side of this is that there are a fair number of lower-cost legit BJDs out there that are similarly sized to the higher-end ones, so if someone is just looking for a doll as a clothing model, why wouldn't they just buy one/some of those? That way they don't need to make a huge financial investment and they're still supporting the artists who created the dolls - seems like a win/win situation.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Loona on January 02, 2016, 03:07:37 PM
I thought about this too while reading through this thread. what if someone who makes clothes for BJD wanted to offer several size options and needed different-sized dolls for measuring and modeling purposes? buying several legit dolls just because of this would be a financial disaster most likely. measurements can of course be requested from other owners, but clothes (not only in dolly size btw) usually sell better when they are modeled on actual dolls, not just pictured laying flat.

The flip side of this is that there are a fair number of lower-cost legit BJDs out there that are similarly sized to the higher-end ones, so if someone is just looking for a doll as a clothing model, why wouldn't they just buy one/some of those? That way they don't need to make a huge financial investment and they're still supporting the artists who created the dolls - seems like a win/win situation.
oh, that sounds great! thank you for your reply! :) I don't really know much about how much do recasts go for, and how their price compares to either their originals or to other originals of the same size, so if there are original dollies out there you can get for or close to the price of a recast that is similar-sized, than my question is no longer valid :) I was assuming that recasts are way cheaper, so this option didn't even come to mind.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Aerora on January 02, 2016, 05:31:13 PM
oh, that sounds great! thank you for your reply! :) I don't really know much about how much do recasts go for, and how their price compares to either their originals or to other originals of the same size, so if there are original dollies out there you can get for or close to the price of a recast that is similar-sized, than my question is no longer valid :) I was assuming that recasts are way cheaper, so this option didn't even come to mind.

IIRC while recasts are cheaper than the dolls they're ripping off, they're not the cheapest dolls available - looking at almost-definitely-not-legit sites, recast Minifees are $120-140. Resinsoul's MSDs (same size as a minifee) are $126-$150, and I know they're not the only lower-cost BJD company. Of course they're not the same doll, but both are classified as "slim MSD," so they should fit similar clothes, I think?
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Hervoyel on January 02, 2016, 05:54:31 PM
oh, that sounds great! thank you for your reply! :) I don't really know much about how much do recasts go for, and how their price compares to either their originals or to other originals of the same size, so if there are original dollies out there you can get for or close to the price of a recast that is similar-sized, than my question is no longer valid :) I was assuming that recasts are way cheaper, so this option didn't even come to mind.

IIRC while recasts are cheaper than the dolls they're ripping off, they're not the cheapest dolls available - looking at almost-definitely-not-legit sites, recast Minifees are $120-140. Resinsoul's MSDs (same size as a minifee) are $126-$150, and I know they're not the only lower-cost BJD company. Of course they're not the same doll, but both are classified as "slim MSD," so they should fit similar clothes, I think?
Yup. And companies like Mirodoll and Fantasy Doll/Angel Street can be even cheaper when they're having sales, so those are more legit companies whose dolls can be cheaper than recasts.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on January 03, 2016, 12:41:57 PM
Phynx I think you were treated very poorly and I'm sorry your doll group did that to you.  I do think that the recast witch hunt phenomena that happens can be extreme and ridiculous.  I think it is particularly bad when doll groups fling unbased accusations at innocent parties.

But... I do understand the idea behind not allowing in a social group (ie DOA which is so huge) people to openly own, sell, share photos of,  recast dolls.  Doing those things SUPPORTS recasters because it implies that having recast dolls is okay.

I know there are lots of people that just don't get why having a recast art doll hurts both the artist and the hobby while supporting an art thief.  But maybe those people might STILL hesitate before buying a recast doll (or before buying a doll that they do not know one way or the other if it is legit) if they thought they wouldn't be able to happily or easily share those dolls with their social networking groups. So then the recasters make less money and more people by legit art dolls.

I would compare it to owning a counterfit of a well known and living artist. Regardless of whether you personally enjoy the painting or not, or whether you knew it was counterfit when it was given to you- if you KNEW it was a counterfit, you probably would not want to post photos of it and share it with other art collectors right?  At least that's how I see it.

I don't think however that there is ever any call to be nasty to other people.


I have to agree with Galactica on this one.  If someone was given a recast as a gift, or they didn't do their research enough before buying, that's not an intentional violation against the artist.  But unfortunately taking photos of them, taking them to meets, and showing them off eventually justifies the industry of theft.  :( 

Bullying is never okay - people need to remember we all make choices - and sometimes, our loved ones make choices!  Buy from them again or don't.  Block them or don't.  But don't fill the air with negativity about how they are a terrible person simply because they own something. 

Fakie ponies are acceptable because the companies making them are MUCH smaller than Hasbro, and Hasbro will not seek damages against the few hundred dollars made. 

But BJDs aren't really made by large companies.... not really, not even the more well-known ones. By supporting recasts of that company's works, you are directly taking money/food/bills out of their employees' pockets.   

Not to make an equal comparison, but what if you owned a bunch of military stuff?  Like from the National Socialist Party of Germany in the 1930's?  It may be a fascinating piece of history, but you are likely NOT going to upload on the internet and show everyone how awesome it is.  :(  Unless you want incredible backlash, that is.... 
 

I don't shop from chains well known for ripping off people's art.  Like Hot Topic, like Forever 22.  I don't ever shop with brands who steal cultural, ethnic or other such designs and call it Haute Couture.


Me too!  You can totally understand how difficult this is when you want to go shopping! 
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Vertefae on January 03, 2016, 02:36:20 PM
Wait. Did we just compare Nazi relics with recasts? Knock off dolls to an organization that murdered millions of people?

I'm sorry gals, I'm done. They're toys, expensive plastic toys.

Post Merge: January 03, 2016, 02:47:20 PM

I wanted to add this. WWII artifacts are sold every day on the internet. Both from the Allies and the Axis powers. Including Nazi Germany.

How you can even begin to compare a knock off doll to that I'll never understand. At best you're looking at a comparison of fake art being passed as real. However being a member of recast friendly forums I can tell you first hand that you'll get banned faster than anything for passing a recast as a legit. Recast owners are not ashamed of what they own. Not until people on the web start comparing them to horrible people like the Nazis.
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: Emerald on January 03, 2016, 03:06:12 PM
Wait. Did we just compare Nazi relics with recasts? Knock off dolls to an organization that murdered millions of people?

I'm sorry gals, I'm done. They're toys, expensive plastic toys.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that lost me. Theft is bad, but it's not genocide. Can we keep this thread on topic? I don't want this thread to get shut down and if it turns into a discussion about NAZIS it's going to get ugly. Counterfeit toys are not murdering people. Can we just not make fantastical comparisons?
Title: Re: How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)
Post by: hathorcat on January 03, 2016, 03:37:46 PM
And done
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