The 'average proportions' doll

[tinyblondie]

I think she is lovely. I hope that she does well, I would like to see different versions of her too featuring various ethnicities, body types and heights 

[brightberry]

That's exactly it, and I'm tired of the responses from people saying that OH NO, they've never been effected by this at all, but then say that the Lammily doll is simply average proportion and that Barbie's body is actually attainable.  Read:  It isn't.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said barbie's body is attainable... or in any of the articles linked.   So maybe you're getting that somewhere else?  The study does show that some little girls are not affected by barbie, so people saying they weren't here isn't really strange.  Especially if they are adults and still like dolls.  For whatever reason, some people are not influenced and that's interesting.

brightberry, that is very interesting indeed, and I do agree that we need to find out more about what impact (and why) toys have on kids, but this is just one single study, it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Right. It doesn't prove much.  It does indicate that barbie influences many girls at least after a short time of experiencing barbie and that's why the study gets quoted so often in these lammily articles.  But in the same study more "average" dolls also negatively influenced girls, even more so than barbie in the 2nd grade.  I find it mildly annoying now to read articles that produce the study as evidence that barbie is bad for girls and lammily is good when the same study indicates that other mature dolls are just as problematic.  But I guess that's what the news does.   

I think whatever parents are doing to make sure that their girls have a healthy attitude towards dolls... they should figure out what that is and write a book about it.

I don't remember ever wanting to look like barbie.  I actually kind of dreaded growing up.  

[little.fox]

I agree, if we could find out what those parents are doing right, that would be a huge step in the right direction!

[Jocelyn]

There is a blog/facebook page I follow that tries to do exactly that - Pigtail Pals and Ballcap Buddies. Though the mom behind it can be kind of, ah...aggressive at times - I think there was a thread here about a post she made against Monster High, back when MH was still in this forum. She is very much against the Barbie ideal and is all about raising girls to love their body, and all body types. And letting girls know that what you can do with your body is far more important than what it looks like. I'm not sure if people will agree with her completely, but she just came out with a book recently so I thought maybe I should throw the info out there.

Her book: http://www.amazon.com/Redefining-Girly-Stereotyping-Sexualizing-Girlhood/dp/1613745524/ and her blog: http://pigtailpalsblog.com/

I agree that while the idea behind Lammily is a good one, she's just too boring to appeal to kids. The creator seems very aware of what proactive mothers want for their kids, but he doesn't really seem to be factoring in what the kids want.

[SwordPony]

That's the lady that likes to smack down anything that she doesn't like. I get trying to protect your child but this lady takes it to the extreme.

[MiRaja]

That's exactly it, and I'm tired of the responses from people saying that OH NO, they've never been effected by this at all, but then say that the Lammily doll is simply average proportion and that Barbie's body is actually attainable.  Read:  It isn't.

I don't think anyone on this thread has said barbie's body is attainable... or in any of the articles linked.   So maybe you're getting that somewhere else?  The study does show that some little girls are not affected by barbie, so people saying they weren't here isn't really strange.  Especially if they are adults and still like dolls.  For whatever reason, some people are not influenced and that's interesting.

brightberry, that is very interesting indeed, and I do agree that we need to find out more about what impact (and why) toys have on kids, but this is just one single study, it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Right. It doesn't prove much.  It does indicate that barbie influences many girls at least after a short time of experiencing barbie and that's why the study gets quoted so often in these lammily articles.  But in the same study more "average" dolls also negatively influenced girls, even more so than barbie in the 2nd grade.  I find it mildly annoying now to read articles that produce the study as evidence that barbie is bad for girls and lammily is good when the same study indicates that other mature dolls are just as problematic.  But I guess that's what the news does.   

I think whatever parents are doing to make sure that their girls have a healthy attitude towards dolls... they should figure out what that is and write a book about it.

I don't remember ever wanting to look like barbie.  I actually kind of dreaded growing up.  

There are a couple people in this very thread that the Barbie physique, in their opinion is obtainable.  I'm not going to pick out any individuals or point fingers, but it's definitely has been said, and on the grounds that Mattel slightly tweaked the Barbie body in the last decade or so. 

And just because *you* didn't grow up to want to look like Barbie doesn't mean other little girls didn't or didn't internalize the fat shaming that happens in our society.  I've seen several people use that sort of anecdata, too, and some even more so.  Great, I say!  But the facts, not the anecdotes and personal experiences by a few people in a fandom, say that our young girls and young women are growing up with some very twisted and warped ideals of the human body.  Even though I think it's clear from SOME of the responses that the people who are saying they are not affected or weren't, clearly were/are affected by the warped ideals of beauty in our society and the strain it places on women's health. 

And it's one study that is casually saying that *some* are affected, which suggests that in the MINORITY some girls are not being affected while the majority is being affected by what media and corporations push as beauty and success. 

[brightberry]

I'm certainly not denying that many girls are affected by barbie.  The study clearly shows that many are and that they are also affected by more realistic proportions on dolls.  But it also shows that some are not.  So wouldn't it be prudent to figure what it is that made that happen?


Oh Jocelyn... Thank you for the link.  I thought this entry was really interesting:
http://pigtailpalsblog.com/2014/02/reframe-the-campaign-barbie-sport-illustrated-and-your-daughter/#.UyaNnM40h8E

[tinyblondie]

That's the lady that likes to smack down anything that she doesn't like. I get trying to protect your child but this lady takes it to the extreme.

She's made some very good points in the past but some terrible ones too. She once said that the G4 Ponies were sexualized, not even the EG dolls but the actual ponies 

She seems to find fault with alot of things that arnt faulty. Like with Frozen she said that cause Anna and Elsa are beautiful: 'As adventurous and independent as these gals are, the message is still that you must be beautiful while you do it.' which strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

I cant remember seeing a post by her about this doll but I hope I do soon. I have a feeling its going to be one of her better posts here her points are all sensible and you dont get the feeling she's spent alot of time hunting for faults.

[Vertefae]

That's the lady that likes to smack down anything that she doesn't like. I get trying to protect your child but this lady takes it to the extreme.

She's made some very good points in the past but some terrible ones too. She once said that the G4 Ponies were sexualized, not even the EG dolls but the actual ponies 

She seems to find fault with alot of things that arnt faulty. Like with Frozen she said that cause Anna and Elsa are beautiful: 'As adventurous and independent as these gals are, the message is still that you must be beautiful while you do it.' which strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

I cant remember seeing a post by her about this doll but I hope I do soon. I have a feeling its going to be one of her better posts here her points are all sensible and you dont get the feeling she's spent alot of time hunting for faults.

I have to wonder if she's comfortable in her own body. She's very quick to shame people/things she considers beautiful. Almost as if they should be ashamed of how they look.

As far as why some girls aren't affected by how fashion dolls look, maybe they have a more supportive family life, maybe their patents aren't always going on about dieting, maybe body image isn't made such a huge deal and maybe they simply don't care because it's not being made such a huge deal in their everyday lives.

[Wardah]

That's the lady that likes to smack down anything that she doesn't like. I get trying to protect your child but this lady takes it to the extreme.

She's made some very good points in the past but some terrible ones too. She once said that the G4 Ponies were sexualized, not even the EG dolls but the actual ponies 

She seems to find fault with alot of things that arnt faulty. Like with Frozen she said that cause Anna and Elsa are beautiful: 'As adventurous and independent as these gals are, the message is still that you must be beautiful while you do it.' which strikes me as a bit ridiculous.

I cant remember seeing a post by her about this doll but I hope I do soon. I have a feeling its going to be one of her better posts here her points are all sensible and you dont get the feeling she's spent alot of time hunting for faults.

I have to wonder if she's comfortable in her own body. She's very quick to shame people/things she considers beautiful. Almost as if they should be ashamed of how they look.

This is exactly what bugs me about her. To her it almost seems like beauty is a flaw. Not everyone can get good grades or be a sports star even if they try their hardest. For some people being beautiful is all they have that stands out because they are average at everything else. Whether they are good people or not should be what gets judged. Not achievements or looks. Some people could have tons of achievements and just be so full of themselves that nobody can stand them. And a model could just be one of the kindest people ever using their off time to help others.

[Hervoyel]

As far as why some girls aren't affected by how fashion dolls look, maybe they have a more supportive family life, maybe their patents aren't always going on about dieting, maybe body image isn't made such a huge deal and maybe they simply don't care because it's not being made such a huge deal in their everyday lives.

I wonder if some of it isn't just a matter of personality - some kids are pretty oblivious to the surrounding culture in general, and on the flip side, some soak everything up even when their family is fairly supportive (or limits pop-culture consumption).   And preferences fit in there too; I didn't play with fashion dolls as a kid - they just didn't interest me at all - but my sister loved them, and there wasn't any parental pressure on either of us to be for or against them, y'know?

I don't doubt that family plays a big roll in reinforcing (or counteracting) general cultural norms and trends, but I think there are probably too many other factors at play.  After all, I'd think we've all met exceptions to any generalization like that - people who had supportive/socially-aware parents who ended up with eating disorders as well as ex-child models with healthy self-images?

[little.fox]

Yes, I agree that partly it's probably just down to personality!

Just like you say some kids will soak everything up, dispite what parents say & do.

[brightberry]

I agree many children will do that.  But I also know that can be tempered with good parenting and keeping their child aware that there is another point of view will at least give them something to turn to when things get out of hand. 

I still think it's interesting that in the study there is a dramatic dip in barbie's influence in the 2nd grade and a rise in the Emme.

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2006/04/19/post-1/

I don't think that can all be accounted for by personality alone.  Maybe they lost interest in barbie.  Maybe they think she's for babies or maybe they heard all the noise that was going around at that time about how unrealistic barbie was.  And maybe, now faced with this new doll, they felt uncertain again.


I agree that the http://pigtailpalsblog.com/ writer is often all over the place.


But even if she doesn't like barbie, she still lets her kids have them and she was still invited to meet the Monster High creators and give her input.  In the end, I think she just wants her kids to look more critically at what's being marketed to them.

http://pigtailpalsblog.com/2012/08/the-tooth-fairy-is-friends-with-mermaid-barbies/#.UycnX840h8E

http://pigtailpalsblog.com/2013/04/barbie-in-a-bucket/

http://pigtailpalsblog.com/2013/07/barbie-world-is-it-what-i-thought-it-would-be/#.UycX4c40h8E

http://pigtailpalsblog.com/2012/10/meeting-with-mattel-about-monster-high/#.Uycd2840h8E

[Hervoyel]

I don't think that can all be accounted for by personality alone.

That's the issue with both extremes of this - nothing exists in a vacuum, so it's never going to be all personality or all parenting or all pop culture.

That Barbie vs. Emme storybook study allows for some of that by differentiating by age, but there must be so many other factors at play in the background (and to be fair, maybe the study itself talked about that and the blog just didn't mention it).  Another thing I wonder about is the cumulative effects - so the immediate effects may change with maturity, but what effect do the impressions of the younger ones have in the longer term? 

What does it mean to have had that influence at 3 (and thought those thoughts at that specific time) when you're 5 or 10, or 35.  It seems like the fact that they don't think the same way at 10 would be a separate issue from the fact that they're (potentially) now a 10-year-old who had certain thoughts at 3.

[tinyblondie]

As far as why some girls aren't affected by how fashion dolls look, maybe they have a more supportive family life, maybe their patents aren't always going on about dieting, maybe body image isn't made such a huge deal and maybe they simply don't care because it's not being made such a huge deal in their everyday lives.

I wonder if some of it isn't just a matter of personality - some kids are pretty oblivious to the surrounding culture in general, and on the flip side, some soak everything up even when their family is fairly supportive (or limits pop-culture consumption).   And preferences fit in there too; I didn't play with fashion dolls as a kid - they just didn't interest me at all - but my sister loved them, and there wasn't any parental pressure on either of us to be for or against them, y'know?

I don't doubt that family plays a big roll in reinforcing (or counteracting) general cultural norms and trends, but I think there are probably too many other factors at play.  After all, I'd think we've all met exceptions to any generalization like that - people who had supportive/socially-aware parents who ended up with eating disorders as well as ex-child models with healthy self-images?

Hoenstly I think its impossible to pinpoint or point fingers in regards to body image problems. I grew up in a house where my mum never dieted or talked about diets, where my sister made it clear that she only went to weight watchers to help her maintain a healthy weight and where I played with Ponies and Tea Sets rather than Barbies. But I still had Anorexia for 7 years. They say prevention is better than the cure but ED's are such deep rooted problems that I think working out ways to reinforce healthy body image is much better.