The MLP Arena

Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: Mana Minori on September 22, 2020, 05:24:47 AM

Title: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Mana Minori on September 22, 2020, 05:24:47 AM
I’ve been thinking. With a lot of g5 talk taking place, what will the future look like for the trademark flank tattoos on our beloved ponies? What sort of name do you see Hasbro giving them in g5? Markings? Symbols? Perhaps they will keep being called cutie marks, as g3 and g4 did? What do each of you think lies in store for these butt designs?
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Carrehz on September 22, 2020, 05:35:58 AM
I'm pretty sure we're stuck with "cutie mark" forever, now. There's no reason for them to change a perfectly good trademark. They've spent a lot of G4 drilling that term into our heads, too.

Also, "symbol" and "marking" are too generic to trademark.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 22, 2020, 06:22:29 AM
I'm sure they'll stick with cutie mark, for the reasons Carrehz said.  It's also become commonly known now, even among non-pony-people.  Like I was watching a Drawfee vid on Youtube;  they drew a pony and speculated "but what would their cutie mark be?"

That is great for Hasbro, they have this phrase that people associate with "a real My Little Pony" which other toy companies can't legally use.

I think visually they'll remain pretty much the same.  Brightly colored images, not natural-looking horse markings.  Unless that's the theme of some special set.  It's just a lot easier to design a separate graphic versus integrating natural-looking markings.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on September 22, 2020, 07:28:54 AM
I hope they drop the idea of the cutie mark being some sort of destiny indicator, because along the lines it sort of became a career indicator instead and got way more boring.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: SunPony on September 22, 2020, 08:34:55 AM
butt designs

ideal

I hope they drop the idea of the cutie mark being some sort of destiny indicator, because along the lines it sort of became a career indicator instead and got way more boring.

Personally I don't mind it being related to a pony's destiny or personality, but I def agree that the way it has been used as a career indicator is boring and also makes it seem like "your job is your life" in a way that is maybe not healthy for children to take in as a way of thinking.   
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Wardah on September 22, 2020, 08:46:15 AM
I came in through G3 but before they started using the term "Cutie Marks". I personally never liked the term symbol because for me symbols are supposed to be symbolic of something and imho the designs on ponies aren't deep enough in meaning to be something symbolic.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: MJNSEIFER on September 22, 2020, 08:48:34 AM
I hope they drop the idea of the cutie mark being some sort of destiny indicator, because along the lines it sort of became a career indicator instead and got way more boring.
I don't completely agree with that, but I'll have to look at the newer episodes to be sure - I do feel that episodes like that were trying to tell us that it didn't have to decide your career, as the whole idea was that you could be good at many things, and that your cutie mark was what you were best at and possibly the thing you enjoyed doing, but the show made it clear that you could do other things, I thought.

Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on September 22, 2020, 08:55:16 AM
There was that one episode that did say that you can enjoy hobbies outside of your cutie mark, but I think its the design of the side characters that bothers me. A doctor pony has a doctor cm, a vet has a vet cm, I think Cheerilee's avoids what I'm talking about but also serves as a contrast to ponies designed with literal cms. I get that you can't have the most well-thought out designs for side/background characters but having it indicate your super special talent and it being so integral to the story makes me look at the less-thought-out ponies and go hmm.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Leave a Whisper on September 22, 2020, 09:04:35 AM
I hope they drop the idea of the cutie mark being some sort of destiny indicator, because along the lines it sort of became a career indicator instead and got way more boring.

Same.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 22, 2020, 09:30:41 AM
I think being tied to a pony's destiny or at least interests is kind of necessary, because it would be weird if symbols were random. Like if a pony got a pear symbol but hated pears.  Or a pony with a gluten allergy got a wheat symbol.

I guess they could have the symbols change as the ponies age and their interests change, but . . . personally I don't like that idea.  Imagine Night Glider suddenly getting different symbols because she isn't into space anymore.  It might be unrealistic to say "She will always have this interest, that will never change", but it's okay for fictional worlds to be unrealistic.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 22, 2020, 09:59:07 AM
I want to see the demise of the term cutie mark but also don't think it will happen. I just feel that it's so patronising to be "cutie". Cute Mark, well, ok, I could maybe deal with that. But you have to make it cutesy language like you're talking down to someone...I never liked it in G3, and I don't like it in G4...

The original official name was rump mark or rump marking. I have G1 material from Hasbro that uses that terminology, but I don't see a return to it because that was then and now everything has to be slick, shiny and, apparently, 'cute' when aimed at young girls.

I don't really like the destiny indicator aspect either. On the surface it's actually a really clever idea. But in reality it's telling kids you can't change your mind or your future or your path once it's settled. And that has bigger potential ramifications in terms of the messages it sends out. I don't think  Hasbro thought about that, or the tv people, I think that's accidental, but we don't really need to be telling kids that they have only one potential path in life to follow. It's not like life is that simple, and kids need to know that as life moves on, you can absolutely change your dreams, hopes and goals. So I really want to see that connection go away.

...But I do think that symbols - whatever they are called - could be linked to some special magic for that pony. What I really would love to see is a return to the idea of magic not being the province of unicorns alone. I never liked it in the G1 animation - it never existed in the Uk comics, the most magical pony in ponyland was an earth pony - and I think that's another area where you're telling kids to fit into a mould, rather than break out of it and surprise people's expectations.

Characters like that have also shown to be popular (eg Ghoulia in MH) so I think having a symbol that connects to a pony's unique and individual magic would be a nice change.

But I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of a less fixed symbol on the rear, and instead a more tattoo approach across legs and body. *shrug*. I dunno. That one's up for debate.

Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Leave a Whisper on September 22, 2020, 10:40:03 AM
I think being tied to a pony's destiny or at least interests is kind of necessary, because it would be weird if symbols were random. Like if a pony got a pear symbol but hated pears.  Or a pony with a gluten allergy got a wheat symbol.

I guess they could have the symbols change as the ponies age and their interests change, but . . . personally I don't like that idea.  Imagine Night Glider suddenly getting different symbols because she isn't into space anymore.  It might be unrealistic to say "She will always have this interest, that will never change", but it's okay for fictional worlds to be unrealistic.

Why should it be tied to their destiny? Tying it to theme/name/interest is fine, but having it appear when you've finally found your calling in life and being something of a social pariah until you do is dumb. And it was way too late in the game for Hasbro to drop that nonsense into the line.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Mana Minori on September 22, 2020, 10:58:49 AM
I want to see the demise of the term cutie mark but also don't think it will happen. I just feel that it's so patronising to be "cutie". Cute Mark, well, ok, I could maybe deal with that. But you have to make it cutesy language like you're talking down to someone...I never liked it in G3, and I don't like it in G4...

The original official name was rump mark or rump marking. I have G1 material from Hasbro that uses that terminology, but I don't see a return to it because that was then and now everything has to be slick, shiny and, apparently, 'cute' when aimed at young girls.

I never saw the term Cutie Mark as talking down to the audience. I guess when you take being called “cutie” rather than “ cute”, it is usually applied to children, but with the cutie mark term, I always thought of it being a parallel to a beauty mark, and “cutie mark” just sound more similar to that than “cute mark”.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Ponybookworm on September 22, 2020, 11:03:58 AM
I want to see the demise of the term cutie mark but also don't think it will happen. I just feel that it's so patronising to be "cutie". Cute Mark, well, ok, I could maybe deal with that. But you have to make it cutesy language like you're talking down to someone...I never liked it in G3, and I don't like it in G4...

The original official name was rump mark or rump marking. I have G1 material from Hasbro that uses that terminology, but I don't see a return to it because that was then and now everything has to be slick, shiny and, apparently, 'cute' when aimed at young girls.
This, so much!!!

Destiny thing is cool in one way, but in another, as has been said by many, not so much. Nobody has just one interest, & many interests change as the years go by. However, knowing what your future could hold can give you hope, as searching for a purpose is something I've struggled with all my life.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Emillia on September 22, 2020, 11:04:27 AM
I think it depends on how the toyline and the show are going to be. Realistically, Hasbro already has the term "cutie mark" and they will probably continue with that.

But as we know, this reincarnation is going to be with an entirely new cast set in an entirely new world. So, maybe the writers of the show have their own ideas about what cutie marks/symbols can mean, and they might rename them. You can definitely do a lot more with them than Hasbro has been.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 22, 2020, 11:24:41 AM
I think being tied to a pony's destiny or at least interests is kind of necessary, because it would be weird if symbols were random. Like if a pony got a pear symbol but hated pears.  Or a pony with a gluten allergy got a wheat symbol.

I guess they could have the symbols change as the ponies age and their interests change, but . . . personally I don't like that idea.  Imagine Night Glider suddenly getting different symbols because she isn't into space anymore.  It might be unrealistic to say "She will always have this interest, that will never change", but it's okay for fictional worlds to be unrealistic.

Why should it be tied to their destiny? Tying it to theme/name/interest is fine, but having it appear when you've finally found your calling in life and being something of a social pariah until you do is dumb. And it was way too late in the game for Hasbro to drop that nonsense into the line.

But if it's a special interest that your butt knows you'll have for the rest of your life . . . how is that different from "your destiny"?

It just seems inescapable that there's an element of "Yeah, you like this one thing forever" unless a gen did away with symbols altogether or made them change.  But also, I don't think most kids are going to read that much into it?

Like in Avatar: The Last Airbender the four nations were split up by element type and you could argue the same thing--that it was saying that you were pre-destined only to be able to do ONE thing, if you were born in the Fire Nation you couldn't become an Air Bender, and that was limiting.  But . . . did kids actually interpret it that way?  Because I've never heard someone who grew up watching ATLA say that.

(And I am aware that the sequel series, Korra, wasn't like that, but I also know a lot of people who watched ATLA but not Korra.)
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Leave a Whisper on September 22, 2020, 11:37:56 AM
I think being tied to a pony's destiny or at least interests is kind of necessary, because it would be weird if symbols were random. Like if a pony got a pear symbol but hated pears.  Or a pony with a gluten allergy got a wheat symbol.

I guess they could have the symbols change as the ponies age and their interests change, but . . . personally I don't like that idea.  Imagine Night Glider suddenly getting different symbols because she isn't into space anymore.  It might be unrealistic to say "She will always have this interest, that will never change", but it's okay for fictional worlds to be unrealistic.

Why should it be tied to their destiny? Tying it to theme/name/interest is fine, but having it appear when you've finally found your calling in life and being something of a social pariah until you do is dumb. And it was way too late in the game for Hasbro to drop that nonsense into the line.

But if it's a special interest that your butt knows you'll have for the rest of your life . . . how is that different from "your destiny"?

It just seems inescapable that there's an element of "Yeah, you like this one thing forever" unless a gen did away with symbols altogether or made them change.  But also, I don't think most kids are going to read that much into it?

Like in Avatar: The Last Airbender the four nations were split up by element type and you could argue the same thing--that it was saying that you were pre-destined only to be able to do ONE thing, if you were born in the Fire Nation you couldn't become an Air Bender, and that was limiting.  But . . . did kids actually interpret it that way?  Because I've never heard someone who grew up watching ATLA say that.

(And I am aware that the sequel series, Korra, wasn't like that, but I also know a lot of people who watched ATLA but not Korra.)

Because interest or tteme is different since it ties into their symbol and name. Waiting for the thing you'll be doing for the rest of your life and being made an outcast until a picture appears on your hip is different and a bad example to set.

 For example, you could love singing but are stage-shy and you may even have an awful singing voice anyway, all while working  a regular 9 to 5 job at the grocery store.

If you wanna go into pony terms Waterfire is neither a zen master, nor a pyro who puts out her own fires with the nearest water source. She's a pony who loves to read books on the beach.

Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: dragglereeka on September 22, 2020, 12:42:10 PM
I'd love to see more elaborate designs i.e like Twice as Fancy ponies and cascading symbols being commonplace. As long as they all colour co-ordinated well.
Perhaps magic colour changing features too, that somehow matched the ponies magical/practical abilities.
For example, a pony with an open book cutie mark, that under the heat of your thumb would show up text or a picture. This pony's interest would be reading and/or history, something like that :)



Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Leave a Whisper on September 22, 2020, 12:49:47 PM
I'd love to see more elaborate designs i.e like Twice as Fancy ponies and cascading symbols being commonplace. As long as they all colour co-ordinated well.
Perhaps magic colour changing features too, that somehow matched the ponies magical/practical abilities.
For example, a pony with an open book cutie mark, that under the heat of your thumb would show up text or a picture. This pony's interest would be reading and/or history, something like that :)

That would be great!
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Nemesis on September 22, 2020, 02:09:23 PM
Yes, bring back gimmicky symbols! I’d especially like to see more TaFs and gradients. :)

I’m probably completely alone in this... but I remember back when G3 was first announced, and Hasbro first coined the term “cutie mark”. I was SO relieved! XD I was sick of cumbersome terminology like “flank symbol”, and was really happy to have a cute, Hasbro-specific name for it that rolled off the tongue. I don’t love the way cutie marks were so exaggerated in G4 (or most of the goofier elements of G4, for that matter), but I’ll always think of it as a G3 term firstly.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Ragamuffin on September 22, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
I don't think they'll ever change it and I'm indifferent towards the term "Cutie Mark"... generally speaking.

In FiM I thought it was so funny... CMs are this huge important cultural thing, but they're called "Cutie Marks". The cutesiest, fluffiest, pinkest word for it, and they play their importance completely straight. In something like G3 it fits better because for one, it's never mentioned in media and it's not important. And two, G3 is just cutesy so it just fits. FiM tries to go fantasy with wars and villains and stuff. That season finale with Starlight Glimmer, there was like... an apocalyptic scenario where everyone died or something right? And then they throw around girly words like "Cutie Mark"... XD
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Wardah on September 22, 2020, 03:40:13 PM
Yes, bring back gimmicky symbols! I’d especially like to see more TaFs and gradients. :)

I’m probably completely alone in this... but I remember back when G3 was first announced, and Hasbro first coined the term “cutie mark”. I was SO relieved! XD I was sick of cumbersome terminology like “flank symbol”, and was really happy to have a cute, Hasbro-specific name for it that rolled off the tongue. I don’t love the way cutie marks were so exaggerated in G4 (or most of the goofier elements of G4, for that matter), but I’ll always think of it as a G3 term firstly.

Afaik they didn't start using the term Cutie Mark until G3 focused on the Core 7.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 22, 2020, 03:58:00 PM
@Nemesis - Hasbro coined rump mark in G1. :P Online collectors just didn't like it that much, so it fell by the wayside. And while I agree it's clunky, at least it is what it says it is, and doesn't patronise or gender the line more than necessary.

I think there was some confusion originally about whether CM was the symbol or the heart.

 I get that cutie mark is a wordplay on beauty mark but...in a sense, doesn't that make it even worse? That it's about someone's appearance? I dunno. I always felt cutie was a patronising word and the whole thing was as Ragamuffin said, girly and fluffy and...saccharin.

So I wasn't that girl, it would've completely turned me off the line. I already find Rarity's fashion obsession and Pinkie Pie's party throwing really bothersome (and Rarity is probably my favourite M6 because Glory). In G1 as a kid I took against Sunbeam pretty badly because she was a party organiser, so it's not just a G4 thing.

My ponies fought zombie invasions and stuff. They definitely would not have been able to do that with a 'cutie mark'. I mean seriously. Cringe. I really wince inside when someone refers to a G1 symbol as a cutie mark. Nope.

...But MLP has got progressively more 'girly' in its promotion as generations have gone on - pink packages, and so on...and even though I think FIM was attempting empowerment it actually empowered them using some of those same stereotypes (hair, fashion, parties etc). And then you have the cute language - not just the cutie mark but the everypony (I also wince at that, I won't pretend otherwise) and so on.

I'd really like G5 to avoid all of that. As I said before, a symbol that resonates to the pony's inner magic or spirit or personality but NOT their interests, hobbies, intentions, dreams or goals would be less limiting in the message, but I would also love to see more TAFish symbols that didn't suddenly have to involve computer chips and usb drives because the pony likes computers...or something...

I guess I also want G5 to be a lot more of a magical realm and a lot less of a slice of life thing though. And that is also probably worth taking into consideration when thinking what symbols may be going forward.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 22, 2020, 06:00:04 PM
Yes, bring back gimmicky symbols! I’d especially like to see more TaFs and gradients. :)

I’m probably completely alone in this... but I remember back when G3 was first announced, and Hasbro first coined the term “cutie mark”. I was SO relieved! XD I was sick of cumbersome terminology like “flank symbol”, and was really happy to have a cute, Hasbro-specific name for it that rolled off the tongue. I don’t love the way cutie marks were so exaggerated in G4 (or most of the goofier elements of G4, for that matter), but I’ll always think of it as a G3 term firstly.

Afaik they didn't start using the term Cutie Mark until G3 focused on the Core 7.

No, they started using it almost immediately.  And for years MLP collectors mistakenly thought "cutie mark" meant the hoof heart (that indicated the foot where the magnet was), so you would see sale listings like "good symbol, slight scuff on cutie mark."  :P

Edit:  This pony is from the 2nd year of G3, but I thiiiink they used the term even earlier than that--like in promotional announcements and stuff.  Not positive, though. Anyway, there's a "TM" after the term cutie mark (in the teeniest, thinnest font possible) so I'm sure this was the plan since the launch of G3.

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This year was very heavy on the term because the Sparkle ponies (like Forsythia and Denim Blue) had glitter over their cutie marks, which was also advertised on their packaging.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Ragamuffin on September 22, 2020, 06:15:06 PM
No, they started using it almost immediately.  And for years MLP collectors mistakenly thought "cutie mark" meant the hoof heart (that indicated the foot where the magnet was), so you would see sale listings like "good symbol, slight scuff on cutie mark."  :P

Edit:  This pony is from the 2nd year of G3, but I thiiiink they used the term even earlier than that--like in promotional announcements and stuff.  Not positive, though.

First I heard about Cutie Marks as a kid was either in the "Meet the Ponies" book or the "How to Draw" book, which had to have been 2003. I think they're mentioned in both but it comes down to which one I owned first. XD
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: sd_dreamcrystal on September 22, 2020, 06:29:51 PM
CM still makes me cringe a lot XD
I actually refuse to stay it outside of just saying CM

I still use the term symbol but I've been thinking of another term that would work for my own personal ponies... However, Hasbro is likely to still use the CM term for a long time and the symbols themselves are likely still going to be a mix of simple and colorful to minor complex.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 22, 2020, 06:48:06 PM
No, they started using it almost immediately.  And for years MLP collectors mistakenly thought "cutie mark" meant the hoof heart (that indicated the foot where the magnet was), so you would see sale listings like "good symbol, slight scuff on cutie mark."  :P

Edit:  This pony is from the 2nd year of G3, but I thiiiink they used the term even earlier than that--like in promotional announcements and stuff.  Not positive, though.

First I heard about Cutie Marks as a kid was either in the "Meet the Ponies" book or the "How to Draw" book, which had to have been 2003. I think they're mentioned in both but it comes down to which one I owned first. XD

Is that the book where Rainbow Dash is holding a giant pencil on the front?

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I'm so confused.

And you're right, I checked my scans of the How To Draw book and they mention them.

Spoiler
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Early enough that all the ponies were drawn with double hoof hearts . . . I wonder why that never came to fruition.  Like, it's even part of the G3 logo.

Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Sunset on September 22, 2020, 08:17:21 PM
Put me on the side of wanting to move away from the “destiny” side of symbols.  I generally just want beautifully designed toys and would be ok if the franchise just moved back towards not really mentioning them in the media much. 

Plus, as I mentioned in other threads, I regret that some of the other species depicted in the show didn’t get cutie marks which I attribute to it being only a special pony thing.  In G5, I want all toys to have a symbol even if they aren’t ponies. (Intelligent or large characters, not little animal pets that are already tiny.)

But I still do want symbols/cutie marks.  I would never want Hasbro to just drop the concept altogether because I consider it one of the core aspects of what makes a pony a “My Little Pony” and not just another colorful pony toy.

I have never been a fan of “cutie mark.”  I have come to accept using it in regards to G4 since it is so integral to the mythos. 
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Nemesis on September 22, 2020, 09:14:27 PM
They definitely made use of the term “cutie mark” right out of the gate in G3. I heard it before the first G3 ponies even hit stores, from promotional info and discussion around the internet. I remember it very well, because I was SO excited that MLP was being revived (here in the States, there hadn’t been new ponies since I was a small child... so sad).

@Taffeta:
I’ll be honest... I hate the term “rump mark” most of all. XD The word “rump” sucks any magic or whimsy out of the concept immediately, for me. I think of “rump roast” when I hear it. XP

In any case, I 100% respect your feelings, tastes, and pony preferences. I do have to say though, I always loved the girly aspects of MLP. Rarity is honestly my favorite of the G4 main cast BECAUSE of her love of fashion (as well as her drama queen persona and savvy business sense). The episodes centering around her designing and sewing were some of my favorites. X3

I understand that different people have different interests, and that’s how it should be. It bothers me when people deride stereotypically feminine or girly things, though. There’s nothing inherently wrong with liking fashion, tea parties, or pink. It IS wrong to assume that every female on the planet is in love with those things, but the fact is that many girls and women DO love them. Stereotypically masculine hobbies like sports, construction/tools, and cars are never treated that way. If a man loves those things, then at worst he’s considered basic. If a woman is into those things, she’s considered progressive and empowered. But “feminine” things are forever treated as meaningless and degrading. Men are mocked for enjoying them, and women are mocked and/or told they are the brainwashed products of social conditioning.

The thing about MLP is that because it’s a franchise with a wide cast of characters, all kinds of interests are represented. In G4, half of the main cast are completely disinterested in fashion or “girly” things (RD and AJ almost openly resent it). The terminology is cutesy I suppose, but lots of other aspects of the show are far, far from “girly” (dragon wars, epic battles, rodeos, military schools, etc.). I just feel like there’s room for all of it in MLP. Dismissing “girly” interests in a toyline/show aimed at young girls is as harmful as dismissing any other interests or pursuits. In both cases, we’re telling girls and women that they shouldn’t like or partake in something because of their gender.

Just my two cents as a devout “girly-girl” who loves pink and glitter, haha. When I played with my ponies, they had epic adventures and fought the forces of evil... and afterwards chilled out at the spa, performed in ballets, and had their manes done. XD
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 23, 2020, 12:40:10 AM
So I am not sure if I can explain this clearly, but I am pretty bothered by this statement:

Quote
Dismissing “girly” interests in a toyline/show aimed at young girls is as harmful as dismissing any other interests or pursuits. In both cases, we’re telling girls and women that they shouldn’t like or partake in something because of their gender.

Nobody ever said otherwise, and you've entirely missed the point I was making.

There's nothing wrong with girls being empowered by 'girly' or 'not girly'. My point is that there's still too much of an expectation of those themes from toy producers, and so on and so forth. It's not the themes themselves that are an issue, but the anticipation that toy companies seem to think they can't sell a toy to a girl if it isn't pink/fluffy/connected in some way to fashion/parties...

Girls can absolutely share those things, enjoy those things, and should. But what I was really getting at is the bigger issue that girls are shoehorned into certain colours/styles/themes very young as a kind of an expectation that's what they will be interested in. There was a study some time ago about this and that if a caregiver thought a child was a girl, they'd immediately go for the pink, the doll, etc - but if they thought the child was a boy, they'd immediately go for the train, and the truck, and so on. We still live in a world where it's very common to encourage young girls to 'take care of dolly's needs' and 'play house' and so on, with the kind of toys that also shoehorn a girl into a particular direction.

As a kid I hated pink. Now, I love it, because it's no longer trying to define me. I never had anything against the colour. I had something against the pink aisle and the fact that there were pretty much only so many things that appeared that, including fashion dolls and so on. Toy companies telling me as a kid that I could either dress up dolly or change her nappy and feed her. No thanks.

...It's all very well saying girls can be empowered by fashion, and it's absolutely true. But then again, why are they choosing to empower Rarity with fashion? Is it because she's a girl, and that's 'something girls like'?

It's how toy coorporations see us. It's nothing to do with how women see themselves, or what interests women choose for themselves. And it isn't helped by the fact the G4 creator also derided older generations for parties, and girly things, then put them in her show. That says a lot for the influence of those toy coorporations, who think that they can't appeal to girls without some make up, jewellery, fashion and parties.

As for rump mark, as I said, collectors back when didn't like it, so it didn't stick. But it is the correct official term for G1, you can't pretend it doesn't exist any more than I can pretend cutie mark doesn't exist because I hate it xD. Hasbro had a term for the symbols from G1 time. They also used Rump Design in g2 iirc. They didn't just start with it in G3, which was what you were saying.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Emillia on September 23, 2020, 01:47:56 AM

...It's all very well saying girls can be empowered by fashion, and it's absolutely true. But then again, why are they choosing to empower Rarity with fashion? Is it because she's a girl, and that's 'something girls like'?


Really? I never thought about it like that at all. I always saw G4 Rarity as creative and artistic. Making fashions like Rarity does is a rather high-skill level thing, and personally I thought FiM really celebrated that. Yes, it's "girly", and they could have literally make her good at anything else, but at the same time - why not? I truly get your issue with that idea though, but I don't think everyone looks at it trough the same lens (I think that's an English proverb, but I could be mixing languages up, sorry in advance).
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 23, 2020, 02:08:38 AM

...It's all very well saying girls can be empowered by fashion, and it's absolutely true. But then again, why are they choosing to empower Rarity with fashion? Is it because she's a girl, and that's 'something girls like'?


Really? I never thought about it like that at all. I always saw G4 Rarity as creative and artistic. Making fashions like Rarity does is a rather high-skill level thing, and personally I thought FiM really celebrated that. Yes, it's "girly", and they could have literally make her good at anything else, but at the same time - why not? I truly get your issue with that idea though, but I don't think everyone looks at it trough the same lens (I think that's an English proverb, but I could be mixing languages up, sorry in advance).

Well, it's only one way of interpreting it. It's more a case of asking, why did Hasbro/FIM choose that particular area in which to expand on Rarity as an artist and a businesswoman. THere's nothing wrong with it in its own sense, until you remember the walls and walls of fashion dolls and realise how much of the market aimed at girls is tied up in that concept. It's not about what happens in the show so much as the wider choices. Even lines like Monster High and Jem - which are also not about fashion per se - put huge emphasis on fashion as a concept because they're fashion dolls, right? (But 'boy' dolls with clothing are action figures? Even though they have clothing too?) Do you see what I mean? It's not inside the show, it's the wider assumptions I have issues with.

But this isn't really a thread about gender themes or FIM per se. I just didn't like the assumption that my problem is with women empowering themselves with fashion. My problem is that it's such an obvious natural choice for a girl's toy to be linked with fashion/clothing/make up that it makes me wonder why fashion, and why not something else?

Spoiler
Putting this in spoiler as well because it's way OT, but going back to that theme of a fashion design as empowerment, Shana in the Jem series is the band's fashion designer as well as their drummer/guitarist. But the way in which her character is handled is so entirely different to Rarity, it feels much less patronising and much more real. Shana is an artist, a musician and a pragmatic businesswoman. Rarity is unnaturally obsessed with what everyone else is wearing/looks like, how her hair is, and gemstones. Which has nothing to do with Sparker's gem collecting, and everything to do with reinforcing stereotypes.

I think Shana is a lot more empowering as a character involved in fashion, even though she's from 35 years ago, than Rarity is.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Leave a Whisper on September 23, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
No one said anything about wanting them to go away. Its just the destiny thing is dumb and needs to go away. Especially since it now needs to magically appear instead of always being there.  And impo, rump design is both physically innacurate and just as awkward and awful as cutie mark. The symbol is on their hips anyway.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: kittyhasnosoul on September 23, 2020, 06:07:42 AM
I just hope the designs are pretty and original! And hopefully the new show adds more lore to the cutie marks, whether theyre called cutie marks or not. I like lore.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Carrehz on September 23, 2020, 06:09:51 AM
I've never liked "cutie mark". Animaniacs used it first and I disliked it there as well >P Too cutesy-wootsy and just silly sounding. I mean, I don't expect complete seriousness from MLP, but... I just don't like the name.

I like the idea of "CM = destiny" in theory, I suppose, but in practice it breaks down pretty quickly... I mean what the heck does a spoon represent. What about that background pony in FiM who had Grumpy Cat for his symbol. And I HATE the whole "only ponies get CMs!!!" crap. Breezies should have symbols!!! I'm not asking for every single char to have 'em, but I wish the hippogriffs had had them, at least. I love my Silverstream and Skystar, but they look so bare without symbols...
(Plus if only ponies have them in G4, what about Zecora? :/)

I just wish we could scrap all of this story stuff relating to the symbols and go back to making them pretty. Bring back TAFs!
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Mrs. Prospector on September 23, 2020, 07:32:06 AM
What would you want Cutie Marks to be called moving on? I feel like "rump design/symbol" is really unattractive, and just "symbol" isn't special enough. "Birthmark" might work if the ponies are born with them, or "magical emblem" or something.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 23, 2020, 07:55:05 AM
I don't think we need to go back to rump design or rump mark either, I only brought it up to demonstrate that Hasbro didn't just start naming them in G3, it's just that the G1/G2 term was not popular with the online community and got superseded by symbol pretty quick.

Symbol can't be copyrighted. Hasbro would want something they could copyright.

It would depend on whether they had any meaning or whether they were just decorative, though. If they were just decorative they might not need a name.


Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: SunPony on September 23, 2020, 08:21:47 AM
Hip mark or hip decor or hip print might be good options, except what do you call it on TAF ponies, hmm...

or for copyright status, maybe Pony Print (yay for alliteration)?  Print makes sense for them as toys but not really for them to call it within their own universe.

What would we call it if people had something like that?  Maybe hip mark, like we have birth marks?
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 23, 2020, 08:33:33 AM
Pony Print is better than Cutie Mark by a very very big margin.

Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on September 23, 2020, 08:40:06 AM
Pony Print is so cute! Their newspaper could be the Pony Print Print.
They're essentially quarter marks, yeah? I guess that would need a bit more incorporation of pony anatomy in general terms (and flank is incorrect?) and can't be copyrighted.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: reanna-mator on September 23, 2020, 08:42:55 AM
I'm less concerned with what they're called more than I am what they'll look like. I'd really like to continue to see more elaborate designs, designs with glitter, "twice as fancy" style ponies, and I wouldn't mind seeing the return of 3D/raised cutie marks but with the current size, that might be a little harder? Perhaps for "fashion style" larger ponies.

I also think Pony Print is SUPER cute, but I don't see them steering away from Cutie Mark since it's been so widely used for a while now.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Wardah on September 23, 2020, 09:51:29 AM
Ironically calling it a "symbol" post G4 makes more sense than it did pre G4 when most of the time they were random and had very little to do with anything. I guess that's why I kinda prefer "Cutie Mark" but for pre G3 I prefer to just say what it is like for example Bowtie I would describe as "blue pony with pink bows on her".
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Leave a Whisper on September 23, 2020, 10:05:28 AM
Hip mark or hip decor or hip print might be good options, except what do you call it on TAF ponies, hmm...

or for copyright status, maybe Pony Print (yay for alliteration)?  Print makes sense for them as toys but not really for them to call it within their own universe.

What would we call it if people had something like that?  Maybe hip mark, like we have birth marks?

I'm "hip" with that.  ;)
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Nemesis on September 23, 2020, 11:56:26 AM

...It's all very well saying girls can be empowered by fashion, and it's absolutely true. But then again, why are they choosing to empower Rarity with fashion? Is it because she's a girl, and that's 'something girls like'?


Really? I never thought about it like that at all. I always saw G4 Rarity as creative and artistic. Making fashions like Rarity does is a rather high-skill level thing, and personally I thought FiM really celebrated that. Yes, it's "girly", and they could have literally make her good at anything else, but at the same time - why not? I truly get your issue with that idea though, but I don't think everyone looks at it trough the same lens (I think that's an English proverb, but I could be mixing languages up, sorry in advance).

Honestly, I’m pretty sure they picked “fashion designer” as Rarity’s career because... fashion IS popular among MLP’s core demographic. A LOT of girls and women genuinely like these “girly” things, so it makes sense to include characters and toys that will appeal to them. I felt like G4 did a pretty good job of having diverse characters who were into different things. It wasn’t over-saturated with pink, cupcakes, glitter, etc., but those things were represented because... they’re popular with young girls. That’s not just a stereotype... it’s also a reality. Not all girls are into the same things of course, but many love pink, glitter, fashion, and makeup. There have been lots of toylines through the years that tried to buck the stereotypes and avoid anything “girly” in their girl-aimed products. Unless you count Breyer horses (though I’d say most of those are pretty unisex), I can’t think of any that have been successful or long-lived.

I do get what you’re saying about how adults stereotype kids based on their genders. But if it’s a matter of shopping for a child you don’t know well, it’s ALWAYS a toss up. Most adults will opt for something that’s “in” and popular with the child’s demographic. I don’t really think that’s wrong.

In any case, I’m sorry if something I said offended you, or if I missed another point you were making (it was late when I posted). I just get a bit defensive of my pink and glitter. There are groups and individuals that are on this anti-girly kick, and berating parents about what they should or shouldn’t allow their daughters to play with. Not to mention all the negativity that brands like Disney Princess get from self-proclaimed “progressive” women.

“Girls who play with Barbie will grow up to believe they’re lesser than men—give them a Mrs. Potato Head instead!” (Real suggestion from researchers.) Umm... right. I’m definitely going to be thrilled with a potato when I asked for a glamorous fashion doll for my birthday. :/ Nothing wrong with the Potato Heads, mind you (I loved mine as a kid), but I played with them in a totally different way. They were not Barbie substitutes.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: The_Loner on September 23, 2020, 12:12:23 PM
They better be on both sides!
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 23, 2020, 12:18:14 PM


In any case, I’m sorry if something I said offended you, or if I missed another point you were making (it was late when I posted). I just get a bit defensive of my pink and glitter. There are groups and individuals that are on this anti-girly kick, and berating parents about what they should or shouldn’t allow their daughters to play with. Not to mention all the negativity that brands like Disney Princess get from self-proclaimed “progressive” women.

“Girls who play with Barbie will grow up to believe they’re lesser than men—give them a Mrs. Potato Head instead!” (Real suggestion from researchers.) Umm... right. I’m definitely going to be thrilled with a potato when I asked for a glamorous fashion doll for my birthday. :/ Nothing wrong with the Potato Heads, mind you (I loved mine as a kid), but I played with them in a totally different way. They were not Barbie substitutes.

It's a valid frustration, I just don't appreciate it being taken out on me when I never said anything about it not being ok for girls to like those things or that it was in any way detrimental if girls did. I was entirely talking about the stereotype attitudes that fuel toy creation. The "girls should like this! attitude, as opposed to "this girl likes that" which is completely different.

 I am very much of the opinion all girls should like and be whatever and whoever they want to be and follow whatever interests them. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with Rarity being a fashion designer, but just that it's worth considering in context why fashion was chosen to be the medium.

I do have more problems with Rarity's image-obsessiveness, since I don't think it's helpful in the modern context to see a cartoon character fussing over her appearance or the appearance of others as much given how damaging social media and such can be on those exact themes. Rarity is not a bully, she's not a bad guy. But she is subtly reinforcing certain expectations that I'm not really a fan of.

As for the believing themselves inferior, there was a televised experiment at a school here that basically proved that stereotypes fed to girls, including about the kind of jobs they should or should not do, did have a direct influence on limiting their ambtion and increased their sense inferiority vis a vis men. I am not blaming glitter or pink for this, or Barbie. I am blaming the overwhelming and limited drive to gender girls into certain roles and likes/dislikes at an early age, while rarely providing for those kids who might NOT want to go down that line.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09202jz

But this is now off topic, so let's drop it and get back to symbols.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Pokeyonekenobie on September 23, 2020, 12:30:59 PM
I've always wondered how the parents in FiM were able to so accurately name their children when their gluteal tats hadn't shown up yet to tell the world just who/what they were.  :silly:

Like, what if Rainbow Dash's tat had been a bee with a flower?  Would she have applied for a name change or just been okay with it?

At least in G1 they were born with their tats so their parents had an idea of what name might match up.   
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Ponyfan on September 23, 2020, 01:04:33 PM
I've always wondered how the parents in FiM were able to so accurately name their children when their gluteal tats hadn't shown up yet to tell the world just who/what they were.  :silly:

Like, what if Rainbow Dash's tat had been a bee with a flower?  Would she have applied for a name change or just been okay with it?


I’ve wondered that too especially with ponies like Spoiled Rich.  I think her name before was Spoiled Milk.  Who would name their baby pony that? :silly:

I would like to see the term cutie mark go away.  It bothers me when someone refers to G1 symbols as cutie marks. 

I like the term Pony Prints for cutie marks.   I’d like to see the cutie mark being tied to the pony’s destiny go away in G5. 

I also agree that Breezies and hippogriffs should have symbols. :)

Ponyfan
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Nemesis on September 23, 2020, 01:47:50 PM
But this is now off topic, so let's drop it and get back to symbols.

Yes, agreed. I apologize for not understanding your original statement. You referred to the cutesy language and cutie mark terminology as patronizing, and I thought you were talking about “girly” themes in general (like fashion and parties). I still disagree about the cutesy language being patronizing (I always found it cute and charming), but I understand now that that’s that’s all you meant to say.

I overreacted a bit, and I’m sorry about that. :hug:

gluteal tats

I think we’ve found Hasbro a new trademark! =D
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 23, 2020, 01:53:14 PM
@Nemesis :cookie:

If it gives you context, I'm writing this post surrounded by a bunch of plushes, one of which is pink, all of whom are technically 'cute'. ;) Cute is fine, so long as it's cute by choice, not by cultural expectation.

...I think gluteal tats is a bit close to the glue factory >.>xD
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Ponybookworm on September 23, 2020, 03:08:47 PM
They better be on both sides!
Could
Not
Agree
MORE!!!
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Pokeyonekenobie on September 23, 2020, 04:14:09 PM
They better be on both sides!
Could
Not
Agree
MORE!!!

Now, what if they were born with one marking (in order to give their parents an idea of what to name them) but then they magically earned a second marking on the other side depicting their skills/talents?  That might make for new mix-em-up that hasn't been done yet.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Nemesis on September 23, 2020, 04:50:18 PM
They better be on both sides!
Could
Not
Agree
MORE!!!

Now, what if they were born with one marking (in order to give their parents an idea of what to name them) but then they magically earned a second marking on the other side depicting their skills/talents?  That might make for new mix-em-up that hasn't been done yet.

That would actually... be a really cool design idea! I always loved the Hero/Villain (aka Two Face) SDCC pony from G3. That’s on the extreme side, but I love the idea of not making the marks symmetrical.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Sunset on September 23, 2020, 05:59:04 PM
They better be on both sides!

Ha! It’s so interesting how so many of us forgot to mention this.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: SunPony on September 23, 2020, 06:58:30 PM
They better be on both sides!
Could
Not
Agree
MORE!!!

Now, what if they were born with one marking (in order to give their parents an idea of what to name them) but then they magically earned a second marking on the other side depicting their skills/talents?  That might make for new mix-em-up that hasn't been done yet.

Huh, never thought of that.  Sounds like a cool idea!   :cool:
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 24, 2020, 12:21:03 AM
TBH I'd rather have the same symbol on both sides than a variation. I'm thinking of the toy line before any kind of media incarnation, here, but how annoying if you want to pose a pony to show a particular symbol but can only do that if they're a particular way around?

Yes to 2 symbols returning. No to variation between them imo.

(Also no to any kind of heat sensitive/changing symbol - Magic Message ponies are a good enough lesson why that's a problematic toy concept)
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: dragglereeka on September 24, 2020, 04:50:00 AM
I guess I also want G5 to be a lot more of a magical realm and a lot less of a slice of life thing though. And that is also probably worth taking into consideration when thinking what symbols may be going forward.


Agreed, more fantasy, magic and mystery :3
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Wardah on September 24, 2020, 06:26:16 AM
(Also no to any kind of heat sensitive/changing symbol - Magic Message ponies are a good enough lesson why that's a problematic toy concept)

I think that toy technology has come a long way since then. There have been much more successful implementations of color changing since.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Nemesis on September 24, 2020, 08:10:33 AM
(Also no to any kind of heat sensitive/changing symbol - Magic Message ponies are a good enough lesson why that's a problematic toy concept)

I think that toy technology has come a long way since then. There have been much more successful implementations of color changing since.

I’ve never noticed any problems with my Magic Message ponies... What issues are they known for?
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 24, 2020, 10:15:23 AM
The symbols damage easily and, if you're careless when washing them, they can come right off.

Colour changing tech has come on, true, but you still end up with the problem that things can get 'stuck'.

I'm not a huge fan of the gimmick in symbols (not for the Nurse ponies either) tbh.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 24, 2020, 11:48:13 AM
The Magic Message symbols have a symbol stamped on the body like normal, and then a thin plasticy piece of material (the heat sensitive part) glued over it.  The plasticy piece can get rubbed or scraped off . . . I also remember one collector who had the plasticy part just slide right off when she was trying to wash Cloud Dreamer in hot water.  (Probably because the heat loosened the glue.)

I'd looove symbols on both sides again.

Forgot to add that one of the reasons I don't want symbols that can change when a pony's interests change (within the lore) is it sounds like the perfect reason for Hasbro to never make a new character again.  Like instead of "we need to appeal to the girls who like stars, let's make a new pony character with stars", they could just say "THIS week Love-a-belle learns about astronomy and has STAR symbols instead of her usual hearts!"  And then they'd release a Love-a-Belle identical to all the other Love-a-belle's, except with a different symbol.

Kind of like if you look at the BTAS toyline, if they felt like they needed a blue action figure, they'd just paint Batman blue and call him "Arctic Mission Batman" or something.
Title: Re: Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future
Post by: Taffeta on September 24, 2020, 12:58:16 PM
The MM ponies do not have a symbol stamped as normal. They have a multilayer heat sensitive symbol, which can come off init's entirety, leaving the pony without a symbol at all.

The nurse ponies probably do have a stamped symbol, but the MM ponies do not.

I have had more than one come through  my hands with no remaining symbol, which could not happen if they were stamped.
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