Pony symbols and cutie marks in the future

[LadyMoondancer]

I think being tied to a pony's destiny or at least interests is kind of necessary, because it would be weird if symbols were random. Like if a pony got a pear symbol but hated pears.  Or a pony with a gluten allergy got a wheat symbol.

I guess they could have the symbols change as the ponies age and their interests change, but . . . personally I don't like that idea.  Imagine Night Glider suddenly getting different symbols because she isn't into space anymore.  It might be unrealistic to say "She will always have this interest, that will never change", but it's okay for fictional worlds to be unrealistic.

Why should it be tied to their destiny? Tying it to theme/name/interest is fine, but having it appear when you've finally found your calling in life and being something of a social pariah until you do is dumb. And it was way too late in the game for Hasbro to drop that nonsense into the line.

But if it's a special interest that your butt knows you'll have for the rest of your life . . . how is that different from "your destiny"?

It just seems inescapable that there's an element of "Yeah, you like this one thing forever" unless a gen did away with symbols altogether or made them change.  But also, I don't think most kids are going to read that much into it?

Like in Avatar: The Last Airbender the four nations were split up by element type and you could argue the same thing--that it was saying that you were pre-destined only to be able to do ONE thing, if you were born in the Fire Nation you couldn't become an Air Bender, and that was limiting.  But . . . did kids actually interpret it that way?  Because I've never heard someone who grew up watching ATLA say that.

(And I am aware that the sequel series, Korra, wasn't like that, but I also know a lot of people who watched ATLA but not Korra.)

[Leave a Whisper]

I think being tied to a pony's destiny or at least interests is kind of necessary, because it would be weird if symbols were random. Like if a pony got a pear symbol but hated pears.  Or a pony with a gluten allergy got a wheat symbol.

I guess they could have the symbols change as the ponies age and their interests change, but . . . personally I don't like that idea.  Imagine Night Glider suddenly getting different symbols because she isn't into space anymore.  It might be unrealistic to say "She will always have this interest, that will never change", but it's okay for fictional worlds to be unrealistic.

Why should it be tied to their destiny? Tying it to theme/name/interest is fine, but having it appear when you've finally found your calling in life and being something of a social pariah until you do is dumb. And it was way too late in the game for Hasbro to drop that nonsense into the line.

But if it's a special interest that your butt knows you'll have for the rest of your life . . . how is that different from "your destiny"?

It just seems inescapable that there's an element of "Yeah, you like this one thing forever" unless a gen did away with symbols altogether or made them change.  But also, I don't think most kids are going to read that much into it?

Like in Avatar: The Last Airbender the four nations were split up by element type and you could argue the same thing--that it was saying that you were pre-destined only to be able to do ONE thing, if you were born in the Fire Nation you couldn't become an Air Bender, and that was limiting.  But . . . did kids actually interpret it that way?  Because I've never heard someone who grew up watching ATLA say that.

(And I am aware that the sequel series, Korra, wasn't like that, but I also know a lot of people who watched ATLA but not Korra.)

Because interest or tteme is different since it ties into their symbol and name. Waiting for the thing you'll be doing for the rest of your life and being made an outcast until a picture appears on your hip is different and a bad example to set.

 For example, you could love singing but are stage-shy and you may even have an awful singing voice anyway, all while working  a regular 9 to 5 job at the grocery store.

If you wanna go into pony terms Waterfire is neither a zen master, nor a pyro who puts out her own fires with the nearest water source. She's a pony who loves to read books on the beach.

[dragglereeka]

I'd love to see more elaborate designs i.e like Twice as Fancy ponies and cascading symbols being commonplace. As long as they all colour co-ordinated well.
Perhaps magic colour changing features too, that somehow matched the ponies magical/practical abilities.
For example, a pony with an open book cutie mark, that under the heat of your thumb would show up text or a picture. This pony's interest would be reading and/or history, something like that

[Leave a Whisper]

I'd love to see more elaborate designs i.e like Twice as Fancy ponies and cascading symbols being commonplace. As long as they all colour co-ordinated well.
Perhaps magic colour changing features too, that somehow matched the ponies magical/practical abilities.
For example, a pony with an open book cutie mark, that under the heat of your thumb would show up text or a picture. This pony's interest would be reading and/or history, something like that

That would be great!

[Nemesis]

Yes, bring back gimmicky symbols! I’d especially like to see more TaFs and gradients.

I’m probably completely alone in this... but I remember back when G3 was first announced, and Hasbro first coined the term “cutie mark”. I was SO relieved! I was sick of cumbersome terminology like “flank symbol”, and was really happy to have a cute, Hasbro-specific name for it that rolled off the tongue. I don’t love the way cutie marks were so exaggerated in G4 (or most of the goofier elements of G4, for that matter), but I’ll always think of it as a G3 term firstly.

[Ragamuffin]

I don't think they'll ever change it and I'm indifferent towards the term "Cutie Mark"... generally speaking.

In FiM I thought it was so funny... CMs are this huge important cultural thing, but they're called "Cutie Marks". The cutesiest, fluffiest, pinkest word for it, and they play their importance completely straight. In something like G3 it fits better because for one, it's never mentioned in media and it's not important. And two, G3 is just cutesy so it just fits. FiM tries to go fantasy with wars and villains and stuff. That season finale with Starlight Glimmer, there was like... an apocalyptic scenario where everyone died or something right? And then they throw around girly words like "Cutie Mark"...

[Wardah]

Yes, bring back gimmicky symbols! I’d especially like to see more TaFs and gradients.

I’m probably completely alone in this... but I remember back when G3 was first announced, and Hasbro first coined the term “cutie mark”. I was SO relieved! I was sick of cumbersome terminology like “flank symbol”, and was really happy to have a cute, Hasbro-specific name for it that rolled off the tongue. I don’t love the way cutie marks were so exaggerated in G4 (or most of the goofier elements of G4, for that matter), but I’ll always think of it as a G3 term firstly.

Afaik they didn't start using the term Cutie Mark until G3 focused on the Core 7.

[Taffeta]

@Nemesis - Hasbro coined rump mark in G1. Online collectors just didn't like it that much, so it fell by the wayside. And while I agree it's clunky, at least it is what it says it is, and doesn't patronise or gender the line more than necessary.

I think there was some confusion originally about whether CM was the symbol or the heart.

 I get that cutie mark is a wordplay on beauty mark but...in a sense, doesn't that make it even worse? That it's about someone's appearance? I dunno. I always felt cutie was a patronising word and the whole thing was as Ragamuffin said, girly and fluffy and...saccharin.

So I wasn't that girl, it would've completely turned me off the line. I already find Rarity's fashion obsession and Pinkie Pie's party throwing really bothersome (and Rarity is probably my favourite M6 because Glory). In G1 as a kid I took against Sunbeam pretty badly because she was a party organiser, so it's not just a G4 thing.

My ponies fought zombie invasions and stuff. They definitely would not have been able to do that with a 'cutie mark'. I mean seriously. Cringe. I really wince inside when someone refers to a G1 symbol as a cutie mark. Nope.

...But MLP has got progressively more 'girly' in its promotion as generations have gone on - pink packages, and so on...and even though I think FIM was attempting empowerment it actually empowered them using some of those same stereotypes (hair, fashion, parties etc). And then you have the cute language - not just the cutie mark but the everypony (I also wince at that, I won't pretend otherwise) and so on.

I'd really like G5 to avoid all of that. As I said before, a symbol that resonates to the pony's inner magic or spirit or personality but NOT their interests, hobbies, intentions, dreams or goals would be less limiting in the message, but I would also love to see more TAFish symbols that didn't suddenly have to involve computer chips and usb drives because the pony likes computers...or something...

I guess I also want G5 to be a lot more of a magical realm and a lot less of a slice of life thing though. And that is also probably worth taking into consideration when thinking what symbols may be going forward.

[LadyMoondancer]

Yes, bring back gimmicky symbols! I’d especially like to see more TaFs and gradients.

I’m probably completely alone in this... but I remember back when G3 was first announced, and Hasbro first coined the term “cutie mark”. I was SO relieved! I was sick of cumbersome terminology like “flank symbol”, and was really happy to have a cute, Hasbro-specific name for it that rolled off the tongue. I don’t love the way cutie marks were so exaggerated in G4 (or most of the goofier elements of G4, for that matter), but I’ll always think of it as a G3 term firstly.

Afaik they didn't start using the term Cutie Mark until G3 focused on the Core 7.

No, they started using it almost immediately.  And for years MLP collectors mistakenly thought "cutie mark" meant the hoof heart (that indicated the foot where the magnet was), so you would see sale listings like "good symbol, slight scuff on cutie mark." 

Edit:  This pony is from the 2nd year of G3, but I thiiiink they used the term even earlier than that--like in promotional announcements and stuff.  Not positive, though. Anyway, there's a "TM" after the term cutie mark (in the teeniest, thinnest font possible) so I'm sure this was the plan since the launch of G3.

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This year was very heavy on the term because the Sparkle ponies (like Forsythia and Denim Blue) had glitter over their cutie marks, which was also advertised on their packaging.

[Ragamuffin]

No, they started using it almost immediately.  And for years MLP collectors mistakenly thought "cutie mark" meant the hoof heart (that indicated the foot where the magnet was), so you would see sale listings like "good symbol, slight scuff on cutie mark." 

Edit:  This pony is from the 2nd year of G3, but I thiiiink they used the term even earlier than that--like in promotional announcements and stuff.  Not positive, though.

First I heard about Cutie Marks as a kid was either in the "Meet the Ponies" book or the "How to Draw" book, which had to have been 2003. I think they're mentioned in both but it comes down to which one I owned first.

[sd_dreamcrystal]

CM still makes me cringe a lot
I actually refuse to stay it outside of just saying CM

I still use the term symbol but I've been thinking of another term that would work for my own personal ponies... However, Hasbro is likely to still use the CM term for a long time and the symbols themselves are likely still going to be a mix of simple and colorful to minor complex.

[LadyMoondancer]

No, they started using it almost immediately.  And for years MLP collectors mistakenly thought "cutie mark" meant the hoof heart (that indicated the foot where the magnet was), so you would see sale listings like "good symbol, slight scuff on cutie mark." 

Edit:  This pony is from the 2nd year of G3, but I thiiiink they used the term even earlier than that--like in promotional announcements and stuff.  Not positive, though.

First I heard about Cutie Marks as a kid was either in the "Meet the Ponies" book or the "How to Draw" book, which had to have been 2003. I think they're mentioned in both but it comes down to which one I owned first.

Is that the book where Rainbow Dash is holding a giant pencil on the front?

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I'm so confused.

And you're right, I checked my scans of the How To Draw book and they mention them.

Spoiler

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Early enough that all the ponies were drawn with double hoof hearts . . . I wonder why that never came to fruition.  Like, it's even part of the G3 logo.

[Sunset]

Put me on the side of wanting to move away from the “destiny” side of symbols.  I generally just want beautifully designed toys and would be ok if the franchise just moved back towards not really mentioning them in the media much. 

Plus, as I mentioned in other threads, I regret that some of the other species depicted in the show didn’t get cutie marks which I attribute to it being only a special pony thing.  In G5, I want all toys to have a symbol even if they aren’t ponies. (Intelligent or large characters, not little animal pets that are already tiny.)

But I still do want symbols/cutie marks.  I would never want Hasbro to just drop the concept altogether because I consider it one of the core aspects of what makes a pony a “My Little Pony” and not just another colorful pony toy.

I have never been a fan of “cutie mark.”  I have come to accept using it in regards to G4 since it is so integral to the mythos. 

[Nemesis]

They definitely made use of the term “cutie mark” right out of the gate in G3. I heard it before the first G3 ponies even hit stores, from promotional info and discussion around the internet. I remember it very well, because I was SO excited that MLP was being revived (here in the States, there hadn’t been new ponies since I was a small child... so sad).

@Taffeta:
I’ll be honest... I hate the term “rump mark” most of all. The word “rump” sucks any magic or whimsy out of the concept immediately, for me. I think of “rump roast” when I hear it. XP

In any case, I 100% respect your feelings, tastes, and pony preferences. I do have to say though, I always loved the girly aspects of MLP. Rarity is honestly my favorite of the G4 main cast BECAUSE of her love of fashion (as well as her drama queen persona and savvy business sense). The episodes centering around her designing and sewing were some of my favorites. X3

I understand that different people have different interests, and that’s how it should be. It bothers me when people deride stereotypically feminine or girly things, though. There’s nothing inherently wrong with liking fashion, tea parties, or pink. It IS wrong to assume that every female on the planet is in love with those things, but the fact is that many girls and women DO love them. Stereotypically masculine hobbies like sports, construction/tools, and cars are never treated that way. If a man loves those things, then at worst he’s considered basic. If a woman is into those things, she’s considered progressive and empowered. But “feminine” things are forever treated as meaningless and degrading. Men are mocked for enjoying them, and women are mocked and/or told they are the brainwashed products of social conditioning.

The thing about MLP is that because it’s a franchise with a wide cast of characters, all kinds of interests are represented. In G4, half of the main cast are completely disinterested in fashion or “girly” things (RD and AJ almost openly resent it). The terminology is cutesy I suppose, but lots of other aspects of the show are far, far from “girly” (dragon wars, epic battles, rodeos, military schools, etc.). I just feel like there’s room for all of it in MLP. Dismissing “girly” interests in a toyline/show aimed at young girls is as harmful as dismissing any other interests or pursuits. In both cases, we’re telling girls and women that they shouldn’t like or partake in something because of their gender.

Just my two cents as a devout “girly-girl” who loves pink and glitter, haha. When I played with my ponies, they had epic adventures and fought the forces of evil... and afterwards chilled out at the spa, performed in ballets, and had their manes done.

[Taffeta]

So I am not sure if I can explain this clearly, but I am pretty bothered by this statement:

Dismissing “girly” interests in a toyline/show aimed at young girls is as harmful as dismissing any other interests or pursuits. In both cases, we’re telling girls and women that they shouldn’t like or partake in something because of their gender.

Nobody ever said otherwise, and you've entirely missed the point I was making.

There's nothing wrong with girls being empowered by 'girly' or 'not girly'. My point is that there's still too much of an expectation of those themes from toy producers, and so on and so forth. It's not the themes themselves that are an issue, but the anticipation that toy companies seem to think they can't sell a toy to a girl if it isn't pink/fluffy/connected in some way to fashion/parties...

Girls can absolutely share those things, enjoy those things, and should. But what I was really getting at is the bigger issue that girls are shoehorned into certain colours/styles/themes very young as a kind of an expectation that's what they will be interested in. There was a study some time ago about this and that if a caregiver thought a child was a girl, they'd immediately go for the pink, the doll, etc - but if they thought the child was a boy, they'd immediately go for the train, and the truck, and so on. We still live in a world where it's very common to encourage young girls to 'take care of dolly's needs' and 'play house' and so on, with the kind of toys that also shoehorn a girl into a particular direction.

As a kid I hated pink. Now, I love it, because it's no longer trying to define me. I never had anything against the colour. I had something against the pink aisle and the fact that there were pretty much only so many things that appeared that, including fashion dolls and so on. Toy companies telling me as a kid that I could either dress up dolly or change her nappy and feed her. No thanks.

...It's all very well saying girls can be empowered by fashion, and it's absolutely true. But then again, why are they choosing to empower Rarity with fashion? Is it because she's a girl, and that's 'something girls like'?

It's how toy coorporations see us. It's nothing to do with how women see themselves, or what interests women choose for themselves. And it isn't helped by the fact the G4 creator also derided older generations for parties, and girly things, then put them in her show. That says a lot for the influence of those toy coorporations, who think that they can't appeal to girls without some make up, jewellery, fashion and parties.

As for rump mark, as I said, collectors back when didn't like it, so it didn't stick. But it is the correct official term for G1, you can't pretend it doesn't exist any more than I can pretend cutie mark doesn't exist because I hate it xD. Hasbro had a term for the symbols from G1 time. They also used Rump Design in g2 iirc. They didn't just start with it in G3, which was what you were saying.