The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: Al-1701 on December 09, 2013, 09:22:33 PM
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I'm currently reviewing the My Little Pony series, and while it's still a few months away, Sonambula is waiting for me as the penultimate review in the series. This means I will have to come to grips with the fact I don't like how Hasbro handled introducing male ponies. I like the concept for having a few males in the predominately female cast, but I don't like the execution for a number of reasons.
1. I don't like that they waited until Year 5 to do it.
2. I don't like that made them a theme set.
3. I don't like that they're all earth ponies.
4. I don't like the term "Big Brother."
5. Sonambula was a bad way to introduce male ponies.
I don't like they came out in Year 5 because of that point in history regarding Hasbro's use of media. After 1986 blew up in their face, Hasbro decided to pull the plug on animation as an advertising tool in this year. That meant the Big Brothers would show up at the tail end of the series and probably only get one episode in a truncated season with a lot to cram into it. So, there being male ponies would barely tap the publicity the show brought.
I don't like that they're all earth ponies (and every male pony in G1 was an earth pony) because it doesn't seem fair that you can't have male unicorns and pegasi too. It's just never sat well with me.
And as for them being a theme set and called Big Brother ponies, I really don't like it. What I call theme sets are sets with a theme to the names and symbols. Sea ponies have an ocean theme, first year flutter ponies have flower theme, and the Princess ponies (at least in the UK) were named after birthstones. However, that's because these sets were special. The sea and flutter ponies were exotic species or ponies and the princesses were princesses. What makes the Big Brothers special? They're male? Are you saying being a different gender means they have to have separated from the mares who are the same species and status. It's also the reason I don't like the term "Big Brother" as it implies the mares are "Little Sisters" which creates a divide between them. Why not call them "Stallions" which would descriptive that creates no added divide?
Then there's the episode. David Wise, why do you do this to us?
If I had been on the MLP development team in the 80's I would have suggested introducing males in Year 4 and included them in the So Soft and Twinkle Eyes lines to take full advantage of the media. I'd use the feather fetlocks as a means of telling them apart from the mares, but they would just be a part of those sets. And then, the clone I made to write at Sunbow and Marvel would find a way to include them into the media that didn't make the female cast seem weaker in comparison. If Care Bears could do it, so could MLP.
Anyway, those are my thoughts on the Big Brothers.
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So... you don't like the name or that they are separate from the other ponies?
Remember that this was a toy line aimed at little girls. They were probably just trying to make the name appealing and assumed they wouldn't sell well to the target market.
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Yeah, you have to look at it from a marketer's point of view. Not a collector.
1.) Calling them "stallions" is a bit too sexual. (Handsome men are called stallions.) That's not something Hasbro wants to promote in a line for little girls.
2.) As you said, by Year 5 Hasbro was trying to cut back. The fact that the Big Brothers were all Earth ponies was probably because they didn't want to invest in a lot of different molds.
I think the Sonamula episode was one of the best in the series. The personalities of the ponies really shown in that ep, and the songs were catchy. I also liked the voices they got for the Big Brothers! :)
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. . . this was a toy line aimed at little girls. They were probably just trying to make the name appealing and assumed they wouldn't sell well to the target market.
I remember being so excited, thinking that they were finally making ponies for boys :'(
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What makes the Big Brothers special? They're male? Are you saying being a different gender means they have to have separated from the mares who are the same species and status.
I kind of appreciate it since it's so rare to see what is basically a reversal of the "Smurfette Principle" (of course, with a set rather than an individual). I kind of hope more people are aware of the parallel and it's existance (even though not likely intentional) can help them can think about why that's problematic, particularly when it becomes a trend, rather than a one-time thing, like here. I'm not sure what you mean about "status" though. Also, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're refering to with their species, but if the female ponies are all one species like you seem to be saying, despite being unicorns, pegasus, and earth ponies, then the males are also part of that species, but just with less physical diversity (which is in fact a real thing in biology, for example, in certain butterflies).
I also have to wonder, since the toys came first, if they were testing out how well boy characters sold before making more diverse molds for them. After all, the original (female) ponies were only Earth Ponies.
I don't see how "Big Brother" is any more divisive that stallion/mare. Both are gendered, so there's that. I guess the age implication is what you're referring to? I don't understand why that's a problem. I would agree that it's a little weird to use sibling terms when there's clearly at least a little romantic interest between some of them and the girls, but I also assume the name was applied to the toys first, and the series did what it could with it.
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Eh, many of these points don't really bug me too much. The episode that they were introduced in was the real problem IMHO.
So, the girls have always solved problems, right? Fight bad guys, and ya know, do things like that. But the second the Big Brother ponies come to town,
they're immediately shoehorned into the "damsel in distress" trope. As a feminist, that bugs me. Why couldn't the girls AND boys stop Sonambula together? Huh?
sigh.
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Yeah, that bugged me a bit too.
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So, the girls have always solved problems, right? Fight bad guys, and ya know, do things like that. But the second the Big Brother ponies come to town,
they're immediately shoehorned into the "damsel in distress" trope. As a feminist, that bugs me. Why couldn't the girls AND boys stop Sonambula together? Huh?
sigh.
It really bugged me as well. And the problem is the episode does such a good job of rendering the girls helpless. Why can't they fight back? They're hypnotized from a distance. Why can't they put up much of a fight well they're released from the spell? Their youth had been sucked out of them. From a narrative standpoint Wise did a good job setting up the situation, but that doesn't stop the situation itself from being chauvinistic.
And I think it's the "Big" part of the name that gets me the most. It suggests superiority which is a sticky issue with a toyline for girls.
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Eh, many of these points don't really bug me too much. The episode that they were introduced in was the real problem IMHO.
So, the girls have always solved problems, right? Fight bad guys, and ya know, do things like that. But the second the Big Brother ponies come to town,
they're immediately shoehorned into the "damsel in distress" trope. As a feminist, that bugs me. Why couldn't the girls AND boys stop Sonambula together? Huh?
sigh.
I guess to me I figured they were focusing on the male ponies having their own episode as they were just being introduced. Just like when they introduced the Bushwollies, most of the episode had them in it. All the ponies were influenced by the magical singing of Kiri the bird. In fact early in the episode the baby ponies saved the Big Brothers from the spell too. Once the ponies were freed from the spell they helped the big brothers in fighting the illusions that were made real by Sonambula. A couple of the Brothers went to rescue the unicorns, but the majority of the fighting was happening between the ponies and the magical creatures from Sonambula.
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...in fact early in the episode the baby ponies saved the Big Brothers from the spell too.
Yup, the little girls saved the day really! ;)
My only two problems with big brothers are:
1. I wanted more, including pegs and unicorns!
2. They did have stereotypically male jobs, while the only girls with jobs were nurses and cooks etc. I would have like more diversity there, big brother nurse or teacher etc.
That being said, I still love my boys! :)
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So, the girls have always solved problems, right? Fight bad guys, and ya know, do things like that. But the second the Big Brother ponies come to town,
they're immediately shoehorned into the "damsel in distress" trope. As a feminist, that bugs me. Why couldn't the girls AND boys stop Sonambula together? Huh?
sigh.
It really bugged me as well. And the problem is the episode does such a good job of rendering the girls helpless. Why can't they fight back? They're hypnotized from a distance. Why can't they put up much of a fight well they're released from the spell? Their youth had been sucked out of them. From a narrative standpoint Wise did a good job setting up the situation, but that doesn't stop the situation itself from being chauvinistic.
And I think it's the "Big" part of the name that gets me the most. It suggests superiority which is a sticky issue with a toyline for girls.
That's what I thought. It's kind of a lame thing to fall back on. And I definitely see how "big" brother ponies can suggest superiority.
Somebody said the name "stallion" was too sexualized to be a name instead, but I don't agree. A stallion is literally what you call a male horse. These are male horses. :P
Post Merge: December 10, 2013, 01:37:55 AM
Eh, many of these points don't really bug me too much. The episode that they were introduced in was the real problem IMHO.
So, the girls have always solved problems, right? Fight bad guys, and ya know, do things like that. But the second the Big Brother ponies come to town,
they're immediately shoehorned into the "damsel in distress" trope. As a feminist, that bugs me. Why couldn't the girls AND boys stop Sonambula together? Huh?
sigh.
I guess to me I figured they were focusing on the male ponies having their own episode as they were just being introduced. Just like when they introduced the Bushwollies, most of the episode had them in it. All the ponies were influenced by the magical singing of Kiri the bird. In fact early in the episode the baby ponies saved the Big Brothers from the spell too. Once the ponies were freed from the spell they helped the big brothers in fighting the illusions that were made real by Sonambula. A couple of the Brothers went to rescue the unicorns, but the majority of the fighting was happening between the ponies and the magical creatures from Sonambula.
I can see how that would be, too. I still think it's a bit sexist to go to the Damsel in Distress trope, but I can see why they did it. :>
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I do wish that they had had boy unicorns and pegs- although I guess it would take some big wings to get those Clydesdale brothers off the ground :D
We (my sister and I) had always had lots of male characters in our herd, we weren't allowed to watch TV so they all had the genders and personalities that we assigned them. I recall that Bow Tie and Minty were male characters, and Twilight too :biggrin:
I don't have a problem with "big brother" ponies- they were big I guess :D There were lots of sexist generalizations/stereotypes in the cartoon of course. It was an advertising cartoon in the 80s. Pretty hard to escape that stuff.
And I guess "Stallion" does probably generate imagery that isn't super fitting with MLP- and of course we couldn't call them geldings right? ;)
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I don't mind the name or how they released them... I'm just happy to have them at all!! (here's looking at you G3-G4 <_< ) Speaking of which... I need to start hunting for Tex...
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I know they are so cute aren't they? Clydesdales have always been one of my favorite horses of all times and I always thought they looked a lot like Clydesdales ...
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I have no problems with the Big Brothers at all. I'm just happy that they made boy ponies.
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I have no problems with the Big Brothers at all. I'm just happy that they made boy ponies.
:like:
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I'd wanted boy ponies for as long as I knew they existed, and was so excited when I finally got my first one a few years ago, but even still, I actually am a little uncomfortable with their symbols being all stereotypically "male" things to the point of being silly. Though I do very much appreciate that they are also pink and purple, not just "boy colors." I think it's perfectly OK to feel both things about them.
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I have no problem with Big Brother ponies but they could of called them Shire ponies :D that is after all whet they are supposed to be hehe :D
Love the little boys too they are all just so cute hehe.
Tbh a few of the 'girl' ponies I always think of a boys haha for example Magic Star, Tootsie (original not white), Bubbles & Scrumptious
I know they are not boy's but..... thats how I have always seen them & played with them like that since I was little, I know there was a few more can't remember atm though :p
Wish they had brought more G1 boy's out :D
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And some people say FiM has a lack of boy ponies, bah! Total lies. Theres tons of males in FiM, just a few less than there is mares, not a huge difference. And theres pegasi and unicorn stallions too! G1 has no such thing, all boys were EARTH.
I guess fluffy hooves make you grounded and unable to use magic in ponyland. idk
Now therre just need to be more G4 stallion toys as we'd be set.
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I really am not bothered by the big brother ponies in any way. It's a toyline for girls and i don't see the problem with most of the characters being girls. (It's not as if most toylines aimed at boys are filled with female characters...So this is not just a Hasbro/MLP thing.)
Not saying that there shouldn't have been more male ponies or different species...but i don't care that much. Also, "big brother" sounds cute. A lot cuter than the use of "mare" and "stallion" in Fim.
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Let's not forget the Mountain Boys in this topic! They're great too!
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I love all the big brothers, and besides you don't have to go by the American name, you don't even have to call them Big Brothers.
The were called Adventure Boy ponies in the UK and some of their names were different in the UK. Tug, Tracks, Trucker, First Base.
Plus Mountain Boys were released around the same time in the UK, actually I've read info that say Mountain Boys came first. (quote from Taffeta's website) Released around the same time as the Adventure Boy/Big Brother Pony first set (reliable UK sources say before, and indeed they appear on an earlier insert dated 1987 than the Brother Ponies), these six ponies did not come with hats or bandanas.
I really didn't put a lot of stock in the cartoon, it was like a really fun accessory to the toy, not the end all and be all of MLP creation. To me the cartoon was never the official pony land it was just there to be watched for entertainment purposes.
I guess for folks who based a lot of their My Little Pony dreams/life/hopes/fears off the cartoon (this goes for the G1 thru G4 cartoon obsessed), well I guess it's more likely you're going to be disappointed.
But if you were like me, collected the toy for the toys sake, used your own imagination for pony adventures instead of whatever hasbro decided to throw at you on the TV show - you to could live like I did, where there were no limits placed by hasbro on ponyland.
Plus, since there are awesome customizers out there, you to can own all kinds of big brother ponies. Not just what hasbro wanted you to buy.
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I've always loved Tex, but I dislike the designs of all the other BB ponies. I've never thought about it beyond that, though. The whole gender, audience, sexism etc etc aspect of that kinda thing... just never occured to me as a child. Or an adult. It's a cartoon for girls. *shrug*
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And some people say FiM has a lack of boy ponies, bah! Total lies. Theres tons of males in FiM, just a few less than there is mares, not a huge difference.
Fun fact: there have been studies done, and if a show has 33% or more of the cast as female, people perceive the show as having mostly female characters, or the women outnumbering the men. Interesting (if depressing), huh?
And I suppose Hasbro could have gone with "colts"!
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So... you don't like the name or that they are separate from the other ponies?
Remember that this was a toy line aimed at little girls. They were probably just trying to make the name appealing and assumed they wouldn't sell well to the target market.
This is absolutely correct!
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The name "Big Brother" has always made me a bit uncomfortable, too, but that's because I over-think children's toys. There are mother ponies and there are baby ponies, but there are few male ponies specifically labeled as "daddy" ponies (and we know exactly who their children and mates are, as they all came as a set). Who are the big brothers related to, sibling-wise? Where did baby ponies like baby Gusty and baby Sundance come from? Do the ponies all practice incest? These questions are, of course, rhetorical because I don't think we really want to think too deeply about this subject. But that, of course, is why I personally protest the name "Big Brother."
On the other hand, though, I do love male ponies. I love the way they look, even if they do perpetuate a stereotype that men are bigger and stronger than women.
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Lucky was called a Stallion, and he's a baby...
I have no problems with the Big Brothers at all. I'm just happy that they made boy ponies.
Yes.
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The problem is all I had was the cartoon. I wasn't aware of MLP until the 90's when it aired on the Disney Channel, by then the toys were on their way out. I only bought my first G1s at the My Little Pony Fair this year.
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The name "Big Brother" has always made me a bit uncomfortable, too, but that's because I over-think children's toys. There are mother ponies and there are baby ponies, but there are few male ponies specifically labeled as "daddy" ponies (and we know exactly who their children and mates are, as they all came as a set). Who are the big brothers related to, sibling-wise? Where did baby ponies like baby Gusty and baby Sundance come from? Do the ponies all practice incest? These questions are, of course, rhetorical because I don't think we really want to think too deeply about this subject. But that, of course, is why I personally protest the name "Big Brother."
On the other hand, though, I do love male ponies. I love the way they look, even if they do perpetuate a stereotype that men are bigger and stronger than women.
...that's a bit of an odd response. Can't someone's big brother be someone else's husband?
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Lol, it amuses me a little that people are disturbed by the Big Brother name and want something different. IF you want to go into the more realistic side of things and call them stallions then might as well be satisfied with the small amount they made. After all stallions are not typically friends nor do they share mares with other stallions. You wouldn't need a bunch of males.
I don't think anything in the pony world is meant to be realistic. That's why they are ponies with symbols on the rear and bright colors. Breyers and other models for realistic stuff.
Nothing about the brothers ever bothered me except I wasn't a fan. I was a little girl and wanted cute girl ponies. The only reason brother ponies are in my house now is the wife likes them.
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I love all the big brothers, and besides you don't have to go by the American name, you don't even have to call them Big Brothers.
I really didn't put a lot of stock in the cartoon, it was like a really fun accessory to the toy, not the end all and be all of MLP creation. To me the cartoon was never the official pony land it was just there to be watched for entertainment purposes.
I guess for folks who based a lot of their My Little Pony dreams/life/hopes/fears off the cartoon (this goes for the G1 thru G4 cartoon obsessed), well I guess it's more likely you're going to be disappointed.
But if you were like me, collected the toy for the toys sake, used your own imagination for pony adventures instead of whatever hasbro decided to throw at you on the TV show - you to could live like I did, where there were no limits placed by hasbro on ponyland.
:nod: :iconclap: :thumb:
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I agree with the sentiment of it being a line aimed at little girls...that typically equates to female characters. As others have mentioned the opposite happens in some male orientated boy lines...how many female transformers were there in the cartoon again? I love MLP for what it is - a simple sweet toy line with the cartoons as a cute merch angle but certainly not something which affects my opinion of the toys.
As for the name it is a gentle alliterative name which is cute and appealing for the target market. The boys were not designed to be boyfriends or dads...they were supposed to just be male ponies in the line and the nicest way to do that is literally to make them "big brothers". Its a very common way to introduce male characters in a line with such a young demographic. As to the lack of unicorn and pegasus...gosh yes I would have loved these too. But with the majority of ponies in general being earth ponies and the boys only getting a couple of sets [remember the first sets of the girls were all earth after all], the fact all the boys were is not too surprising. If you dont like Big Brother...dont use it. As Karen says Adventure Boy is what they went with in the UK. Personally I dont see it as some kind of deep and dark hidden meaning about dominance...I think it literally was that they were bigger ponies and their relationships to the other ponies were cutest explained as like big brothers.
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There were mommy ponies, daddy ponies, baby brother ponies, baby sister ponies, sweet heart sisters and twins. I don`t see any problem with familial titles.
There were Daddy ponies, baby brother ponies and mountain boys as well as the big brothers. There were different sets of male ponies with different titles.
I do wish that there had been pegasi and unicorns. If they had continued the male lines they probably would have come out with them. That is one nice thing that G4 is doing with the blind bags having the "big mac" pose and also the "shining armour pose". I just hope we get some brushable boys....Ooh wouldnt that be a great favorites set? Big mac, shining armour (not troll hair), Dr whooves, snips and snails, mr cake and the villian Sombra. *dreamy eyes*
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...We (my sister and I) had always had lots of male characters in our herd, we weren't allowed to watch TV so they all had the genders and personalities that we assigned them. I recall that Bow Tie and Minty were male characters, and Twilight too :biggrin: ...
Same with me, melody was male, and powder, skyflyer, and majesty. Other ponies as needed. Someone had to father all those babies. LoL
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Since I was into MLP in 1983 and there were no boys for a while, my thoughts at the time when big brothers became available was: FINALLY BOYS! YAY!!
I didn't really sit around and lament why would they choose to call them big brothers.
I was just excited that they were created in the first place.
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I would have preferred they called them stallions, though I'm not horribly bothered by the name. my biggest issue if any is there being so few male ponies period. I don't mind there being more girls, but it would be nice to have at least a few boys per set (and not just earth ponies)
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...We (my sister and I) had always had lots of male characters in our herd, we weren't allowed to watch TV so they all had the genders and personalities that we assigned them. I recall that Bow Tie and Minty were male characters, and Twilight too :biggrin: ...
Same with me, melody was male, and powder, skyflyer, and majesty. Other ponies as needed. Someone had to father all those babies. LoL
That's so funny, I did the same thing. The ponies mostly didn't look gendered to me - Mainsail was a boy in my group.
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I really didn't put a lot of stock in the cartoon, it was like a really fun accessory to the toy, not the end all and be all of MLP creation.
This is the wisest thing I have read on the Arena! ^_^ I think we should all remember that the cartoons (in all generations) were accessories for the toys, just like the combs and pamphlets!
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I didn't like them at all when they came out. I have warmed up to them since. But I guess as a kid I didn't meet many big brothers who didn't bully their younger siblings. It felt like an invasion. :P
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I have no problems with the Big Brothers at all. I'm just happy that they made boy ponies.
:like:
This. And let's just remember this was in the 1980s when things weren't exactly as they are now in terms of total equality. It was just the time they were produced that led to a bunch of the stuff that people are having an issue with here. Not saying it should have been inequal but it was how things were at the time.
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1. I don't like that they waited until Year 5 to do it.
I am under the impression that in their early years, ponies were not strongly gendered. Female pronouns would always be used when they were needed, but gender was not that big of an issue. By introducing a specific set of male characters however, it suddenly makes all other ponies explicitly female.
I pretty much agree with what you said. If the ponies must be gendered, the sets should've be mixed. There would've be no problem with the females being the vast majority, the problem is the segregation between the two genders.
2. I don't like that made them a theme set.
I think this says a lot of how different "girls'" toylines operate compared to "boys'". You'd never see a theme set of female characters in any "boys'" toyline. It's like women are encouraged to worship men from a young age. The very concept of a character being male is a selling point. And the main point of introducing a male character is often so the female character (which you are meant to identify with) will have someone to date. Little girls are taught that a romantic relationship with a man is a very important part of life, while boys are taught to be more independent.
3. I don't like that they're all earth ponies.
This is certainly something that contributes to making male ponies seem like a completely different species of pony (notice that they each have a different colored streak in their mane, which up to that point was exclusive to unicorns and their offspring), but other than that I don't have much of a problem with this. Unicorns and pegasi are rarer anyway.
4. I don't like the term "Big Brother."
Neither do I. It evokes the image of a strong, male person that will protect you. And this is the name applied to what was the only set of male ponies at the time (and pretty much ever in the US). Yeah...
5. Sonambula was a bad way to introduce male ponies.
Yes, it was. From the way the ponies fawn over the big brothers, to the fact that the big brothers can break free from their fantasies with little effort while the other ponies cannot, this episode is terrible from a feminist perspective.
I do not hate this set of ponies in any way, quite the opposite, but I think it's important to be critical of even the things you like. Of course Hasbro meant no harm making these, they were following the norms of society (and still are) which is really what is getting criticised here. However, they are still very much responsible for continuing to reinforce these norms and sending out possibly harmful messages to children.
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Since I was into MLP in 1983 and there were no boys for a while, my thoughts at the time when big brothers became available was: FINALLY BOYS! YAY!!
I didn't really sit around and lament why would they choose to call them big brothers.
I was just excited that they were created in the first place.
Yeah, I'm with you on this one.
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I'm glad this has struck up a discussion.
Admittedly, I have filled in the gaps in my mind as well. The Mountain Boys are unicorns, the BB's don't have a streak in their manes, and I came up with male pegasi. Though, I've also come up with my own ideas for the natures of some ponies like Truly is a nurse and Sparkler is a demolitions expert.
The cartoon is certainly not the be all and end all of the franchise (something G4 needs to remember), but it's still an important advertising tool, and I think Hasbro screwed the pooch using it to present male ponies.
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...We (my sister and I) had always had lots of male characters in our herd, we weren't allowed to watch TV so they all had the genders and personalities that we assigned them. I recall that Bow Tie and Minty were male characters, and Twilight too :biggrin: ...
Same with me, melody was male, and powder, skyflyer, and majesty. Other ponies as needed. Someone had to father all those babies. LoL
That's so funny, I did the same thing. The ponies mostly didn't look gendered to me - Mainsail was a boy in my group.
Mine too! There's just something about Mainsail that screamed 'dude' to me. Also, pirate captain:
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I'm glad this has struck up a discussion.
Admittedly, I have filled in the gaps in my mind as well. The Mountain Boys are unicorns, the BB's don't have a streak in their manes, and I came up with male pegasi. Though, I've also come up with my own ideas for the natures of some ponies like Truly is a nurse and Sparkler is a demolitions expert.
The cartoon is certainly not the be all and end all of the franchise (something G4 needs to remember), but it's still an important advertising tool, and I think Hasbro screwed the pooch using it to present male ponies.
Wait, what is wrong with them having a streak in their mane?
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I'm glad this has struck up a discussion.
Admittedly, I have filled in the gaps in my mind as well. The Mountain Boys are unicorns, the BB's don't have a streak in their manes, and I came up with male pegasi. Though, I've also come up with my own ideas for the natures of some ponies like Truly is a nurse and Sparkler is a demolitions expert.
The cartoon is certainly not the be all and end all of the franchise (something G4 needs to remember), but it's still an important advertising tool, and I think Hasbro screwed the pooch using it to present male ponies.
Somebody please draw Sparkler as a Demoman. (Demomare?)
I do the same thing. It's sort of hard for me to recognize character traits if they're not glaringly obvious [ie Fluttershy's shyness), so I like to make up my own headcanons. :>
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That's it, Barnacle will forever be 'ship's cook' to me, now. XD Awesome pic! Hang in there, Beachball!
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I agree with the sentiment of it being a line aimed at little girls...that typically equates to female characters. As others have mentioned the opposite happens in some male orientated boy lines...how many female transformers were there in the cartoon again? I love MLP for what it is - a simple sweet toy line with the cartoons as a cute merch angle but certainly not something which affects my opinion of the toys.
As for the name it is a gentle alliterative name which is cute and appealing for the target market. The boys were not designed to be boyfriends or dads...they were supposed to just be male ponies in the line and the nicest way to do that is literally to make them "big brothers". Its a very common way to introduce male characters in a line with such a young demographic. As to the lack of unicorn and pegasus...gosh yes I would have loved these too. But with the majority of ponies in general being earth ponies and the boys only getting a couple of sets [remember the first sets of the girls were all earth after all], the fact all the boys were is not too surprising. If you dont like Big Brother...dont use it. As Karen says Adventure Boy is what they went with in the UK. Personally I dont see it as some kind of deep and dark hidden meaning about dominance...I think it literally was that they were bigger ponies and their relationships to the other ponies were cutest explained as like big brothers.
I fully agree with this ^^
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And for History's sake and my sanity, please remember that the first male pony introduced to us was Lucky. HE was the first pony 'presented' to us by hasbro, NOT the cartoon.
SO it was not through the cartoon that a lot of us came to know male ponies, it was through the mail. No not email, the actual postal service. You send in money and horseshoe points and Hasbro sent you a shinny new stallion.
Who knew you could get a man in the mail who would date your ponies; dang, I gotta wait for him to grown up, he's only a baby pony!!!
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I kinda felt uncomfortable about the stereotypical "male roles" they were given and also feel there should have been more variety to them in regards to pony races and toy types. (I think that a twinkle-eyed big brother pony would have been awesome)
The name for them doesn't really bug me much though because Hasbro did the same thing with the sweetheart sisters. Ponies that looked vastly different to the others were given a special grouping name.
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And for History's sake and my sanity, please remember that the first male pony introduced to us was Lucky. HE was the first pony 'presented' to us by hasbro, NOT the cartoon.
SO it was not through the cartoon that a lot of us came to know male ponies, it was through the mail. No not email, the actual postal service. You send in money and horseshoe points and Hasbro sent you a shinny new stallion.
Who knew you could get a man in the mail who would date your ponies; dang, I gotta wait for him to grown up, he's only a baby pony!!!
Hey, maybe that means they're all Lucky's big brothers! You know, since he's obviously the little one.
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And for History's sake and my sanity, please remember that the first male pony introduced to us was Lucky. HE was the first pony 'presented' to us by hasbro, NOT the cartoon.
SO it was not through the cartoon that a lot of us came to know male ponies, it was through the mail. No not email, the actual postal service. You send in money and horseshoe points and Hasbro sent you a shinny new stallion.
Who knew you could get a man in the mail who would date your ponies; dang, I gotta wait for him to grown up, he's only a baby pony!!!
Hey, maybe that means they're all Lucky's big brothers! You know, since he's obviously the little one.
or he's the original daddy, horses grow up faster than humans. :cool:
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And for History's sake and my sanity, please remember that the first male pony introduced to us was Lucky. HE was the first pony 'presented' to us by hasbro, NOT the cartoon.
SO it was not through the cartoon that a lot of us came to know male ponies, it was through the mail. No not email, the actual postal service. You send in money and horseshoe points and Hasbro sent you a shinny new stallion.
Who knew you could get a man in the mail who would date your ponies; dang, I gotta wait for him to grown up, he's only a baby pony!!!
Hey, maybe that means they're all Lucky's big brothers! You know, since he's obviously the little one.
There's also a few other boys, including one of the newborn twins, and Clipper! New headcanon. Also, they could be the sweetheart sisters brothers!
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And for History's sake and my sanity, please remember that the first male pony introduced to us was Lucky. HE was the first pony 'presented' to us by hasbro, NOT the cartoon.
SO it was not through the cartoon that a lot of us came to know male ponies, it was through the mail. No not email, the actual postal service. You send in money and horseshoe points and Hasbro sent you a shinny new stallion.
Who knew you could get a man in the mail who would date your ponies; dang, I gotta wait for him to grown up, he's only a baby pony!!!
Hey, maybe that means they're all Lucky's big brothers! You know, since he's obviously the little one.
There's also a few other boys, including one of the newborn twins, and Clipper! New headcanon. Also, they could be the sweetheart sisters brothers!
Yes, but they all came after Lucky.
And now that I'm thinking about it, I think his mail order pamphlet came in the mail to me, that I didn't get it from an insert in a pony package.
I think how it worked is they already had my name because I'd already ordering ponies through the mail order program. If say you ordered birthflower ponies or baby ember you were in the system. So you were mailed the pamphlet for.
I got quite a few order forms sent to me directly from Hasbro, so I'm almost positive Lucky's was mailed to me.
This pre-dated all the other male ponies in the toyline.
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I wasn't saying any of those pre-dated Lucky, I was adding to Shiro's idea.
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Well.... I was about 4 years old and a little girl when the released the "big brothers" and I will be honest with the other who have said so... I did not like them. Simply because they were boys. I didn't want to play with boy ponies, I wanted pretty girl ponies who had pretty colors and I could style their hair.
I remember for Christmas that year I got like 3 boy ponies and I was sad. I also remember the boy ponies sitting on the store shelves for a lot longer than any other ponies.
However, I do love the episode they were released in it's one of my favorites.
I started playing with them once I was older and they became the "Dad's to my pony families.
Sorry, but My Little Pony is a little girls toy esp back then....
http://youtu.be/bCFKFcmQZfA
SO it was not through the cartoon that a lot of us came to know male ponies, it was through the mail. No not email, the actual postal service. You send in money and horseshoe points and Hasbro sent you a shinny new stallion
And for those of you who don't like the name "big brother" they called him "Lucky the Stallion" just an FYI :P
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Even though Lucky was a colt.
This is why I think Hasbro did not do a good job with the BB's. They didn't do enough to sell the idea to little girls that there are boy ponies who enjoy a good grooming as much as the girls. They were instead the guys who did manly things and the mares swooned over the simple idea of their return.
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Even though Lucky was a colt.
This is why I think Hasbro did not do a good job with the BB's. They didn't do enough to sell the idea to little girls that there are boy ponies who enjoy a good grooming as much as the girls. They were instead the guys who did manly things and the mares swooned over the simple idea of their return.
This, too. Gender roles have always been a problem in American society but when you force them on horses it gets to be a bit ridiculous imho.
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They were instead the guys who did manly things and the mares swooned over the simple idea of their return.
lol! Maybe... you know what as a little girl I bet I would have been head over heels for a handsome Prince pony with lovely brushable hair! They made a few G2 Princes that are handsome, I have them. I also have Shining Armor too I couldn't resist him... although I do wish he had better hair.
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Even though Lucky was a colt.
This is why I think Hasbro did not do a good job with the BB's. They didn't do enough to sell the idea to little girls that there are boy ponies who enjoy a good grooming as much as the girls. They were instead the guys who did manly things and the mares swooned over the simple idea of their return.
Erm, i'm sorry but this is not a MLP or Hasbro problem. This is an "entire society" problem.
I think there are worse aspects to it than the big brother ponies...Also, they still had brushable hair and the commercials showed them getting their manes brushed.
I'm sure that if they did not make them "manly" enough people would have complained too. Like how some complained about G2 male ponies looking just like the female ones.
Also the whole colt/filly stuff only started in G4.
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Yeesh...they're toys! Yes, look at them with adult eyes now and point out the obvious sexism and the name Big Brother showing dominance, but I think most children (including me) didn't care what the group was called. I didn't say "Big Brother tex" he was just Tex. It was the name and not the classification that was important.
My Quarterback was super special to me because he was always the big brother I wanted him to be in the herd. Sometimes he was the hero and sometimes he had to be saved. He was good for plowing the fields but it was the "girl" ponies who decided what the crop was going to be. He was great on the pirate ship (I didn't have Barnacle) but the girls set the main sail and did the hard work, and more often than not HE was the one tied to the main sail by enemy pirates!
It saddens me now that adults still try to enforce their ideals on innocent children's play. My nephew LOVES playing ponies with me and his sister, but his father still frowns on it because of the gender thing...boys don't play ponies, so i just purchased a slew of boy ponies just for him. Not the way I'd raise my child, but it's not my decision. If putting a pirate hat or football helmet allows him to play with us (much more gently than when the Transformers come in to wreck the joint) I'll do just that.
I never saw the pony TV show, so it didn't influence me at all...and really, my ponies were essentially genderless in my mind. The babies were all raised collectively by the herd at the Nursery so there were no daddies and mommies. Baby Firefly was adult Firefly as a child...she got to grow up!
I still love playing ponies and in our play everyone takes care of everyone else, and really, i think that's what's important...not what might or might not be between their legs or who has the bigger muscle mass.
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Growing up, I only had one boy pony, Daddy Apple Delight. I remember it being a bit awkward with all the moms and babies and no dads around... That said, some of my girls WERE boys until I got that family set, and realized that the boys looked different.
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I'm sort of concerned about what some of you are saying. I think you're missing some things me and others are saying.
We're not saying that it's bad to like Big Brother ponies or the episode they come from. Heck, the episode is what made me like them!
I find them charming characters and I'd love to own some. :>
But it's still important to recognize that the fact that their episode did not make any effort to empower the female ponies at all and left the
~tough manly job~ of saving them up to the big tough men, and that is sexist. It is also important to recognize that any toy aimed at children that doesn't
have a good diversity between male and female characters and what they do, but rather leave things like building or sports up to only male characters or things like cooking, cleaning and rearing kids/animals/etc up to only female characters enforces harmful gender stereotypes and affects the way kids think about them.
Basically, it's perfectly fine to like problematic media, but it's critical to recognize problematic points in it.
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I just think it's kind of a moot point *shrug* This happened decades ago. Could it have been done better at the time? Sure. But it was far from abnormal for the time period. And I don't think any of us were horribly adversely affected by it. I certainly don't believe that only girls can be nurses and only boys can be pirate captains. If you're really interested and concerned about gender inequality in children's entertainment then there are much bigger fish to fry than a cartoon about magical talking ponies from the 1980s.
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The issue I think some of us are having in the thread is that sexism can be such an overplayed issue. Yes it's true there are issues with girls toys even today--Barbie for example. But then on the other hand there are many people today who jump all over some aspects of entertainment saying "omg omg that's sexist!" over and over again. It's like the boy who cried wolf--some people just get tired of hearing it so many times, like a broken record. So when someone trots out the old line concerning a toy from the 80's that hasn't even been in production for 30+ years, to complain about how the boys all have gender-stereotypical symbols and have an 'oppressive' name like Big Brothers, it seems like... "Oh boy, here we go again." As No Division says, the Big Brother line is old. It isn't even something children are going to be exposed to today, unless a collector is sharing their childhood toyline with their kids/nieces/nephews/etc.
I'm not saying you don't have valid points about your objections with the Big Brother line (although personally I don't agree with the objections), I'm just saying this is why some people in the thread could be reacting to you that way, in my opinion.
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I'm sort of concerned about what some of you are saying. I think you're missing some things me and others are saying.
We're not saying that it's bad to like Big Brother ponies or the episode they come from. Heck, the episode is what made me like them!
I find them charming characters and I'd love to own some. :>
But it's still important to recognize that the fact that their episode did not make any effort to empower the female ponies at all and left the
~tough manly job~ of saving them up to the big tough men, and that is sexist. It is also important to recognize that any toy aimed at children that doesn't
have a good diversity between male and female characters and what they do, but rather leave things like building or sports up to only male characters or things like cooking, cleaning and rearing kids/animals/etc up to only female characters enforces harmful gender stereotypes and affects the way kids think about them.
Basically, it's perfectly fine to like problematic media, but it's critical to recognize problematic points in it.
Yes, G1 isn't 100% politically correct. (Heck, we got "Gypsy" and "Wigwam" running around.) But i really think there are worse things out there than the big brother ponies. It's not like they were the only male ponies anyway. Yes we had boys with "typical" boy hobbies but we also had dads, children and boys with nature related themes. If the big brothers are too stereotypical than how about daddy Bright Bouquet? He is pink and his body is covered in hearts... In the end the big brother ponies were just one part of the male ponies in G1 and i think it is silly to get upset about a toyline that died about 20 years ago.
At least the G1 male ponies were a varied looking bunch. I'm more amused by the need of FIM to make most male ponies grey, brown or some other drab color.
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Yeah I gotta agree, I didn't notice any of this stuff before this thread, so clearly it didn't affect me. I find it hard to qualify something that didn't affect me as problematic, so it's difficult to really take any notice of it now.
Then again, I have a tendency to not really take society's values on board, I evaluate people on an individual basis, always have, even as a child. *shrug* So I guess I also don't really feel qualified to say what Hasbro should or shouldn't have done with the toys and show.
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To each their own opinion... but here's mine :) :
I don't mind stereotypical "gender roles" in a cartoon...especially when it was only one episode. It's not like the entire series was based around the girls getting into trouble and the boys coming to their rescue. It was just one episode. I personally enjoyed the episode and thought (and still think) nothing of the gender roles coming into play. I'm sure if the Big Brothers were present throughout the entire series that there would be times the roles would be switched - the boys would get in trouble and the girls would come to their rescue. It'd be inevitable - otherwise it'd be a snore of a cartoon :)
I also don't personally mind the stereotypical "man jobs" being associated with the Big Brother ponies. If anything, I find it refreshing. To me, it doesn't mean that the girls **can't** like those things (baseball, boating, football, etc.), but it just means that there are guys around. I'm sure if they wanted to incorporate MORE boys into the show or into the toy line, Hasbro eventually would have made a chef boy or a gardening boy or something like that...but Big Brothers weren't released often so why not focus on something "manly" for the short time they are around?
I mean, call me crazy, but I like guys that open doors for me or carry heavy things around for me. It doesn't make me any less independent or any less of a person - it just shows that guys can be nice and sweet. I wish more were like this! :devious:
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I agree with drangonflitter and STLgusty. IMO, I feel that sometimes the sexism thing gets blown out of proportion. I played with MLP and I was around for the cartoon and never felt that guys had anything over me. In fact my husband feels that the Big Bros are very girly looking. They have pink and have purple and pastel colors. The only thing guyish about them is that they have "boy" themed symbols of sports and cars. Also I feel that the episode didn't make the girls whimpy or damsels in distress. Once the hypnotism was removed they fought back agains the bad guys. Yes they needed the spell broken, but so did the Brothers in the episode, and they were saved by baby girl ponies. The fact the girl ponies liked the big brothers is of no consiquence to me personally, but I do understand that there are different preferences for what people like as far as a companion, but just because the girl ponies liked the guy ponies is not something to bash in my opinion...
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The reason sexism keeps being brought up is because of people like many of you here who consistently try to dismiss it. Again, just read the responses here. "I find this portrayal harmful." "No, it's not; I turned out fine; get over it; stop talking about it."
Not noticing sexism doesn't mean you weren't affected by it, not feeling personally affected doesn't mean others aren't, and that's precisely why people who are aware of it keep trying to bring it into view. It's not even a matter of not consciously thinking of gendered stereotypes, but subconscious influences that affect how we interact with each other. Just take the studies that show hiring disparities between men and women applicants, even when potential employers were given identical made-up resumes with only the genders changed. No one even realized they were doing it. All these little things we're surrounded by add up even if by themselves they seem harmless.
So, yes, this is important. Sure, MLP is just one thing from the past and can't itself be changed, but talking about it is part of understanding the larger trends in society. It's not just about MLP, it's about what we can learn, how we can make things better and to do that means understanding how we got here -what underlies what we do and how we see things.
I would say this: if you don't want to talk about sexism, then OK, you don't have to, but don't go to places where it si being talked about and tell others they can't either.
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Even though Lucky was a colt.
This is why I think Hasbro did not do a good job with the BB's. They didn't do enough to sell the idea to little girls that there are boy ponies who enjoy a good grooming as much as the girls. They were instead the guys who did manly things and the mares swooned over the simple idea of their return.
Uhh, the commercial to sell the actual toy from the 80's has a little girl grooming/brushing Big Brother ponies hair; Tex to be exact.
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I don't dismiss it, I just tend to stay on the fence because I can't relate to anyone who feels affected by it. I'm pretty sure I'd notice sexism if it affected me directly - to be honest, people (particularly potential employers, who have outright commented on it) can't get past the fact that I'm overweight so I don't think it even gets as far as my gender, but that's a whole other issue.
I'd never try to silence anyone else from talking about it, but I would speak up on behalf of people who act on their right to not feel personally offended/affected by it. It's a valid opinion for some of us.
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I'd like to point out that in Quarterbacks backcard story, IF it hadn't been for the flutterponies helping him, he would have never got to the football game.
So much for the man coming to the rescue of the weak helpless females - the darn smallest ponies at the time actually helped him...
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I recognize that there was sexism in these toys - you'd have to be fairly far gone to not see it. But I can't take action against a toy/tv show that came out 25 years ago. Toys and kids entertainment should have come a long way by now, and they haven't. That's the part that gets me the most - not the actions of the past but the lack of change in the present. So I feel that focusing on current problems, of which there are tons, is a more productive use of my time personally. And as an adult pony collector I like my big brother toys just fine.
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I recognize that there was sexism in these toys - you'd have to be fairly far gone to not see it. But I can't take action against a toy/tv show that came out 25 years ago. Toys and kids entertainment should have come a long way by now, and they haven't. That's the part that gets me the most - not the actions of the past but the lack of change in the present. So I feel that focusing on current problems, of which there are tons, is a more productive use of my time personally. And as an adult pony collector I like my big brother toys just fine.
Thank you! That's how I feel as well. I love my ponies, I was such a tomboy and always outside, I don't even remember being inside and watching the cartoon, let alone remember anything sexist. But, I don't doubt that it was sexist, pretty much every cartoon from that time was, like NoD said, things are still like that now, so we really haven't come very far in 25 years which is pretty disturbing.
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I recognize that there was sexism in these toys - you'd have to be fairly far gone to not see it. But I can't take action against a toy/tv show that came out 25 years ago. Toys and kids entertainment should have come a long way by now, and they haven't. That's the part that gets me the most - not the actions of the past but the lack of change in the present. So I feel that focusing on current problems, of which there are tons, is a more productive use of my time personally. And as an adult pony collector I like my big brother toys just fine.
^^yep
I just want to say also that nobody said that you could not discuss sexism...some of us are just coming from a different point of view. If want to discuss sexism then you will have to allow the other side to talk too.
I do not think I am being dismissive about it. I personally do not think any guy is better than me just because he is a guy, so to me it is really more a matter of what you choose to do about yourself. If you choose to be affected by it, then you are. If you choose to feel that these toys downplayed who you are as a woman, then they will. Only you can choose to be offended. If you feel that someone or something or some company is being sexist and you disagree with it, then the best way is to vote with your dollar in a sense... :huh: Meaning don't patronize that place...I guess in this case don't buy the BBs...
Everyone is going to feel differently about this sort of thing. Some will feel it was bad and others not so much, but like NoDivision said, not much we can do about these particular toys now.
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The reason sexism keeps being brought up is because of people like many of you here who consistently try to dismiss it. Again, just read the responses here. "I find this portrayal harmful." "No, it's not; I turned out fine; get over it; stop talking about it."
Not noticing sexism doesn't mean you weren't affected by it, not feeling personally affected doesn't mean others aren't, and that's precisely why people who are aware of it keep trying to bring it into view. It's not even a matter of not consciously thinking of gendered stereotypes, but subconscious influences that affect how we interact with each other. Just take the studies that show hiring disparities between men and women applicants, even when potential employers were given identical made-up resumes with only the genders changed. No one even realized they were doing it. All these little things we're surrounded by add up even if by themselves they seem harmless.
So, yes, this is important. Sure, MLP is just one thing from the past and can't itself be changed, but talking about it is part of understanding the larger trends in society. It's not just about MLP, it's about what we can learn, how we can make things better and to do that means understanding how we got here -what underlies what we do and how we see things.
I would say this: if you don't want to talk about sexism, then OK, you don't have to, but don't go to places where it si being talked about and tell others they can't either.
I just want to say thank you! What you are saying is very important. I think blind nostalgia, that we keep recreating the worlds we remember and cherish from our childhoods (without thinking very critically about the problematic aspects) is a big reason we've made so little progress in gender equality. That's why these things are important to discuss, even if it happened a long time ago, and even if "there are worse things out there".
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The reason sexism keeps being brought up is because of people like many of you here who consistently try to dismiss it. Again, just read the responses here. "I find this portrayal harmful." "No, it's not; I turned out fine; get over it; stop talking about it."
Not noticing sexism doesn't mean you weren't affected by it, not feeling personally affected doesn't mean others aren't, and that's precisely why people who are aware of it keep trying to bring it into view. It's not even a matter of not consciously thinking of gendered stereotypes, but subconscious influences that affect how we interact with each other. Just take the studies that show hiring disparities between men and women applicants, even when potential employers were given identical made-up resumes with only the genders changed. No one even realized they were doing it. All these little things we're surrounded by add up even if by themselves they seem harmless.
So, yes, this is important. Sure, MLP is just one thing from the past and can't itself be changed, but talking about it is part of understanding the larger trends in society. It's not just about MLP, it's about what we can learn, how we can make things better and to do that means understanding how we got here -what underlies what we do and how we see things.
I would say this: if you don't want to talk about sexism, then OK, you don't have to, but don't go to places where it si being talked about and tell others they can't either.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This is *exactly* what I was trying to say and do.
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I also agree completely with Elisto. :like:
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I'm just trying to figure out who said we can't talk about it? Did I miss someones post that said how dare you talk about it?
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I'm just trying to figure out who said we can't talk about it? Did I miss someones post that said how dare you talk about it?
No one said that exactly. (I hope not, anyway. :<)
It's more of an implied thing to them, I think.
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I'm just trying to figure out who said we can't talk about it? Did I miss someones post that said how dare you talk about it?
Kind of wondered this too. I don't see how other people sharing their personal opinions is even implying that people can't or shouldn't talk about it. This is a discussion, I don't feel like anyone has been shutting down anyone else. I know I don't disagree with most of what's been said here, so I hope no one interprets anything I've said in that manner.
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So, I've stayed out of this discussion thus far, but I had to jump in and say that I really, really dislike the sentiment that "Only you can choose to be offended." I wish I could choose not to be offended (in general, I'm not touching this issue in particular). My life would be a whole lot easier if I could choose not to care about sexism. But, well, here we are.
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I'm just trying to figure out who said we can't talk about it? Did I miss someones post that said how dare you talk about it?
I am about to say it...
:P
Seriously - gender roles are always a hot topic unfortunately. While I am all for discussing them, I think the key thing to remember here is not to patronise or accuse someone with a different opinion from you of being wrong in their own opinion. And that is from those who have a problem with the cartoon and its perceived sexism and those who don't have a problem. Go ahead...say whatever you like from your own opinion...but lets respect everyone else's and understand they are equally in their own right to have them.
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Personally I'm more offended by those damned Wal*Mart and Target ads about how getting the perfect gifts cooking the food decorating the tree is all up to mom and she needs to be some kind of superhero to her kids at the same time AND look perfect while doing it.
Oh, and lets not forget the cough medicine ad where dad's too inept to even brush his daughter's hair implying that mom needs to get better faster because she has her whole family to take care of so she can't have any time to take care of herself! These ads are out RIGHT NOW...who cares about what happened 20+ years ago when this crap is still allowed on TV?
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LOL. That's definitely a problem, too.
Gender roles are quite confusing. They say women are weak but have you tried to cook meat?
You build some pretty good arm muscles doing that. Sloppy joes are the staple of my exercise resume.
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Personally I'm more offended by those damned Wal*Mart and Target ads about how getting the perfect gifts cooking the food decorating the tree is all up to mom and she needs to be some kind of superhero to her kids at the same time AND look perfect while doing it.
Oh, and lets not forget the cough medicine ad where dad's too inept to even brush his daughter's hair implying that mom needs to get better faster because she has her whole family to take care of so she can't have any time to take care of herself! These ads are out RIGHT NOW...who cares about what happened 20+ years ago when this crap is still allowed on TV?
oh my goodness. This is just awful. My dad left my mom recently and she's had to be a parent all by herself to my younger brother without any other parental figure and that means she's taken it upon herself to work herself to exhaustion. That add strikes a nerve with me simply because it's an unfair assumption that the mother can do absolutely everything. ESPECIALLY on a holiday. Are mothers not allowed to relax and enjoy a stress-free Christmas?
and that second one just makes me feel like everyone thinks I'd be an incompetent parent. My dad sucked at his parental duties, but that doesn't mean all dads would. ;n; I've met some amazing guys who want to raise a family and I'm pretty sure they'd do an amazing job.
I'm sorry to go off-topic but I was greatly offended by both those advertisements. Seeing a single episode of a kid's TV show use the "damsels in distress" trope in my opinion pales in comparison to when things like this are on public TV. I think the best way to end gender discrimination is to remove the gender stereotypes completely.
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The reason sexism keeps being brought up is because of people like many of you here who consistently try to dismiss it. Again, just read the responses here. "I find this portrayal harmful." "No, it's not; I turned out fine; get over it; stop talking about it."
Not noticing sexism doesn't mean you weren't affected by it, not feeling personally affected doesn't mean others aren't, and that's precisely why people who are aware of it keep trying to bring it into view. It's not even a matter of not consciously thinking of gendered stereotypes, but subconscious influences that affect how we interact with each other. Just take the studies that show hiring disparities between men and women applicants, even when potential employers were given identical made-up resumes with only the genders changed. No one even realized they were doing it. All these little things we're surrounded by add up even if by themselves they seem harmless.
So, yes, this is important. Sure, MLP is just one thing from the past and can't itself be changed, but talking about it is part of understanding the larger trends in society. It's not just about MLP, it's about what we can learn, how we can make things better and to do that means understanding how we got here -what underlies what we do and how we see things.
I would say this: if you don't want to talk about sexism, then OK, you don't have to, but don't go to places where it si being talked about and tell others they can't either.
Oh, I like this post very much. Thank you for making this post. My headache is starting to go away now.
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I recognize that there was sexism in these toys - you'd have to be fairly far gone to not see it.
See, I find that as offensive and dismissive as presumbly I and others have been accused of being about sexism. I DON'T see how therewas sexism in that episode with the Big Brothers - as someone else already pointed out, the BBs saved the girls but the children saved the BBs first, so what, does the hierarchy go children at the top then men then women? No! That's why I don't see how the sexism argument is valid. As someone (I think that same person) said - chances are if the BBs had been in more episodes chances are everyone would be saving everyone else regardless of gender.
As for the toys being categorised according to gender, they were categorised regularly due to their appearance. Categorisation inherently requires discrimination - I don't see why saying 'this is a set of boys' is any worse than saying 'this is a set of children' or 'this is a set of ponies with weird jewels for eyes - they have a physical characteristic which differs from other ponies'. And if anyone says 'saying this is a set of boys is different' - well, then you're presupposing the thing you're trying to argue is inherent in the segregation.
All of the above I had literally never considered before this thread, and while everyone is entitled to their opinions, I do not think my above opinion makes me 'fairly far gone' - whatever that even means.
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I said the toys, not the show. Having a set of boy ponies is not the issue, per se, but boy ponies having 'boy' symbols and girl ponies having 'girl' symbols is, to me, pretty unmistakably sexist. That's something that the toy industry as a whole has a VERY hard time getting over. Boys like baseball. Girls like flowers. Boys like trucks. Girls like butterflies. Boys are firefighters. Girls are nurses. Maybe my wording was not the best, but I do think that that kind of gender stereotyping is pretty hard to miss and pretty important to recognize.
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You said 'toys/show' so with lack of further distinction I took that to mean the episode also... but that's fair enough, that one aspect is like a sub-division of what everyone else is talking about, and that much I do agree with, as I hate gender division in all toys, not just ponies. (Gender division as in, assumption of girls playing with Barbie and boys playing with Lego, not gender division as in boy ponies in one set and girls in another - to me the latter is simply arbitrary categorisation exactly like 'these ponies have jewels for eyes, so they're a set.'). Never noticed it with the ponies, but I do notice now in basically all other toys that there are distinct, arbitrary assumptions make about the target audience of every toy, and those assumptions nearly all come down to gender stereotypes. It's quite clear even just in how toy shops are laid out when you're in the 'girl' section and when you're in the 'boy' section, and that does bother me.
To me though, that's not an equality thing as such, in that it doesn't imply one is better than the other, it simply implies one is 'different' from the other and as such should not cross over into the other's territory - which I disagree with on the grounds of the 'differences' are arbitrarily applied to each gender. It is an equality issue in that 'everyone should be able to do what they want', but I don't see it as an equality thing in terms of one being SUPERIOR to the other - which was a large part of the discussion about the BB ponies. Also, as a child, I didn't care if things were for boys, and neither did my parents. Barbie's head got ripped off and I built the Enterprise D with Lego.
On the upside, I know several people with kids, at least has one with a son who likes playing around in his mum's high heels, another has a son with a pink rocking horse, and another has sons with long hair despite people saying 'boys shouldn't have long hair', so I'm pretty proud of my friends for things like that. They just don't give a toss about gender stereotypes, their kids play with what they want to play with, and dress/look how they feel comfortable.
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Saw this woman, Laura Nelson, give a talk at Cambridge Festival of Ideas a year or two ago and she was very good
http://www.mumsnet.com/bloggers/guest-blog-gender-at-hamleys (http://www.mumsnet.com/bloggers/guest-blog-gender-at-hamleys)
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I only explicitly mentioned sexism in the toys. I've never actually seen that episode, hence why I didn't comment on it. I only mentioned the show as something I couldn't take action against as it was one of the issues that was brought up in this thread. Sorry if that was confusing, it was just a point of reference.
I think the differences within lines of toys are just as important as those between lines of toys, although sometimes not as apparent. Comparing it to barbie - Barbie is a girl. Ken is a boy. So they are, you know, labled as he and she. Just like girl ponies are girls, and boy ponies are boys, so the boys are labeled as such. Recognition of different sexes is basic. But things like (and I'm harking back to older times with this, I know that) Barbie wearing all pink and having 'female' professions if she was given a job at all and Ken wearing only manly colors creates gender bias as opposed to just the differentiation of the sexes.
That's where I see sexism in the pony toys. It's not that the boys are recognized as being boys, its the characteristics they are given vs the characteristics of the girls. And it's not true in all cases and across all characteristics (like yes, some boy ponies are pink, and some like the mountain boys have neutral symbols) but there's often a pretty clear distinction that is definitely driven by gender stereotypes. And those are the problems that continue to this day.
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That's fair enough, and going back to ponies, yes I can see an issue with male ponies being associated with stereotypically 'manly' things, though again I hadn't noiced that before this thead (Tex is just Texan, Wigwam is possibly racist but sexist? I dunno...but yeah, Slugger, Steamer, Salty - ships, trains, baseball, I see the stereotypes there) but I would agree that if there is an instance within toy lines where the same discrimination about gender-based interests as occurs on a large scale is being portrayed within a toy line, that's bad. At least some of the BBs had 'girly' colours? :P
Yeah no I can see the issue with that, but given that they came out so long ago I'd still have to side with people going 'eh.. it was 20 years ago' - let the BBs be begones and take issue with current toys on the market which could actually be altered if people shouted about it.
EDIT: You edited while I was writing so we've echoed each other a bit there, but yes, I absolutely agree with you on this point in general.
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I said the toys, not the show. Having a set of boy ponies is not the issue, per se, but boy ponies having 'boy' symbols and girl ponies having 'girl' symbols is, to me, pretty unmistakably sexist.
But not every male pony had a "boy symbol" just like not every female pony having a "girl symbol". There was variation in the G1 toyline.
To me that is what is really important. There is nothing wrong with guys who like "typical guy things" or girls who like "typical girl things". So i'm not bothered by male ponies with typical male symbols or female ponies with typical female symbols. As long as that is not the only thing we are getting.
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I actually used to get flack about my eldest daughter liking Spiderman. She wore spiderman shirts and she plays with action figures and cars as well as MLP and dolls and teddy bears. I did have a person tell me that I was going to confuse her by allowing her to play with "boys" items. I think the only person who would confuse things is the person trying to make my daughter not herself. I am not offended by the idea that some people think this way. Really I think it is a matter of upbringing by your family. If your family enforced the ideas of stereotypes, then that maybe how you see things in your life (not necessarily a fact about a person, as we are all capable of making our own decisions about how to be). But as I see it, the more people raise their kids to not be that way the more it will dwindle down. But I also believe that people are allowed to have their own ideas and opinions and thoughts, no matter how much I disagree with them or feel completely different about it. So to me, I do not try to take offense on the matter...
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What the heck DOES Ken do as a profession? I don't think I remember him having a job, and Barbie was always the breadwinner being a doctor, veterinarian, whatever. Ken was the arm candy gold digger, so I think it all depends on what angle you choose to look from as to whether something is sexist or not.
And pleanty of the ponies had atypically femaile symbols or gender-neutral ones, such as Firefly rockin' Zeus' bolts, Mainsail with the sailboats, baby liqorice, clovers for Minty, Gusty's Maple leaves (a he in Italian pony shows, btw) and Applejack's apples.
I think the idea of having a big brother and sweetheart for a sister is nice. In my mind it implys that the whole family looks out and cares for one another, and it's up to the child just who those ponies are related to. I should also throw in that there were the Pony Pals who had male characters as well, like Kingsley, and although he was pink, he still kicked He Man's Battlecat's/Cringer's butt more times than not during my playtime!
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But I also believe that people are allowed to have their own ideas and opinions and thoughts, no matter how much I disagree with them or feel completely different about it. So to me, I do not try to take offense on the matter...
My concern with it is actually about shame and repression. If you happen to have a child who likes things that conform to 'gender norms' (ugh), and they're happy, well, good for them they probably won't get any slack about it. I do however firmly believe that a child should not be repressed or shamed for showing interest in other things when the divisions are arbitrary. I possibly feel a little stronger about this with regard to boys not being allowed to be 'girly', as I think that's still more taboo than girls playing with boys toys. I think that kind of repression and shaming is the foundation of sexism in later life, and while I have never felt personally affected by the results of it, I see it a lot in my male friends who don't feel they can do or like certain things. Except for my brony friends (and my brony brother). They just don't care lol. There's a very fine line, at times, between identifying the gender of something (like a boy pony) and using gender stereotypes to do it (he must be a boy pony, he likes baseball).
It's the abritrary, socially-fabricated divisions that bother me. WHY is pink girly? Pink USED to be for boys, a long time ago. Etc. It's a cultural thing, and I hate shame and repression based on arbitrary social 'norms'.
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I'm just trying to figure out who said we can't talk about it? Did I miss someones post that said how dare you talk about it?
No one said directly "don't talk about it," but that seems to be the implication of a lot of what's said.
Yeesh...they're toys!
I just think it's kind of a moot point *shrug* This happened decades ago.
I really didn't put a lot of stock in the cartoon, it was like a really fun accessory to the toy, not the end all and be all of MLP creation.
This is the wisest thing I have read on the Arena! ^_^ I think we should all remember that the cartoons (in all generations) were accessories for the toys, just like the combs and pamphlets!
Isn't the point of all this to suggest that we don't need to talk about it for one reason or another, even though it's something from our own lifetime and some are even just discovering now? Why else say these things? When someone says they find something problematic, "that unimportant" is not just another opinion. It doesn't address the concerns and so shuts down discussion because the main point hasn't been taken seriously (and you can disagree and still take the concerns seriously, but you have to actually address them to do that).
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*ponders if her previous comments about allowing other people opinions...even if we don't agree with them...to be allowed and not judged was simply over looked or not obvious enough*
STOP IT
Does this work?
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I don't think you're being fair, Elisto. No one ever said it's not allowed to be talked about. They said it's not a big deal to them, and that's not the same thing at all. You're putting your own inflection on people's words and assigning a hidden meaning to what people are saying. Especially quoting what /I/ said, which had nothing to do with what you're talking about at all. I was just complimenting KarenTheUnicorn on her idea that the show was an accessory to sell the toy. I take a lot of offense to you taking my words out of context, and I wish you would think about what you say before you type it.
Remember that words you read online don't have a voice inflection behind it, so you're not necessarily understanding the tone of the person who is typing. You shouldn't try to guess the 'hidden meaning' behind people's words online.
And since this thread is most likely going to be locked soon, and people are taking what other people say out of context, I'll bow out now.
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Cat - I don't agree with the color red you used but I'll fight to the death for your right to choose it :P
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Cat - I don't agree with the color red you used but I'll fight to the death for your right to choose it :P
lmao :haha: I myself would've preferred purple lol
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I guess I'd better go, too. I'm sorry if our points aren't being made clear enough, but I'll do my best...
All me and Elisto are saying is that just because you don't see sexism, doesn't mean we don't. We just wanna put our thoughts forward, that's all.
I'm not offended by your guys' opinions at all. :>
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And all we were saying was just because you guys do doesn't mean we should - it doesn't mean we're trying to silence anyone. I don't think anyone is actually being disrespectful of anyone else's opinions here.
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Ok...as we are now discussing the results of off topic discussions rather than anything to do with ponies, as this topic has veered off topic anyway and ignored a couple of mod warnings, I am going to lock it.
Yes, Seashell and Mikey...next time I am getting serious...and I am calling out the purple text! *suspense music*