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Author Topic: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?  (Read 715 times)

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Offline ZuluSeashell

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 12:19:08 PM »
its certainly all very interesting!! :biggrin:

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 12:23:47 PM »
Leikin has confirmed this too about the set with Snowflake and Hopscotch.

It is answering so many questions for me that I have had for a long time regarding certain ponies :D

Whilst I understand nirvana, I don't have much understanding of Euro  and UK releases, I'm getting better though ;) (also I am a UK person so shame on me for not fully understanding the releases in my country!)

Love pkw xxx

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2018, 12:48:59 PM »
Who runs the MLParena Gallery? If you need any pics you are welcome to use my African pony pics that NightGliderSA posted. :)

Post Merge: May 16, 2018, 01:02:17 PM

PKW - Yes I'm so interested in the euro/Uk releases. They really seem to answer so many of the questions I had as a kid as to why we never got full sets and why the ponies shown on the backcards were sometimes never seen in the flesh...

I have also many many ponies from my parents thrifting days in France (they lived there for several years and went thrifting on the weekend to look for ponies for me back home). Most of them are Spanish, Italian, French, No Country, Some Macau. Some strange variants...

« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 01:02:17 PM by ZuluSeashell »

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2018, 02:19:15 PM »
Thank you Leikin :heart:

The White HK Tootise in the gallery is on that same Groom and Style card

http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=384150

So no AJ and Bow with that set? They were replaced with Hopscotch and Snowflake? Children must have been confused with the backcards then NOT showing those two ponies. I guess we CANNOT trust the backcards fully for this set!

It is starting to make sense with the "Italy" ponies as well since Italy Honeycomb and Gypsy were never made, but Hopscotch and Snowflake were, the same with Spain too...... it is starting to fall into place a little more for me.

I will have to update HK white Tootise's details in the gallery to explain which set she came with.

I think Taffeta would explode trying to fit all this information on her website. I don't think there is anywhere that has Euro release information clearly laid out. It is all a bit grey :(

Love pkw xxx

Oh, yes, hadn't seen her in the gallery, thanks :)

hmm, I think we had CP Bowtie and AJ as well. I have one of them MOC (dont remember witch one, or if both *lol*) and I think they originate from the same store as my baby Lemon Drop. They were sold with the set as Taffetta show, but I just think we got a more varied set, and not just those six, or that they where relased at different times, and it continued the set with replacing them after a while. As it wouldnt really make sence to have two versions of the ponies out at the same time I think. I have som pictures at home so maybe I can dig a little deeper into i later, but unfortunately I dont know where my own are packed away, soI have to wait with checking those.

It makes sence with the italy ponies. There is no green italian Tootsie though? But both CJ and BT was sold on the same card and if following the UK logic, it would include green Tootsie?  :P

No really Euro info clearly found. Most everything I see from European sites is based on US releases :/  We had a project on the swedish forum before to try and pinpoint the swedish releases, but the project died down along with people leaving the comunity and forums more and more. I thing Norrskensljus has done quite a massive research on it, but I dont think it is available anywhere :/
I have started to collect some adverts and stuff from Swedish magazines to see if I can puzzle something togheter.
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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2018, 02:50:03 PM »
Now you mention it, I am *sure* I have seen a CP AJ on a Scandinavian card... I will have to track down the thread (I am sure it was Norrskensljus who mentioned it). I will see if I can find the thread and compile something better for the gallery explaining this

Then I wonder if you guy got two waves? One with set/wave Hopscotch and Snowflake and another with Applejack and Bowtie.

It is also 1986, the year in which there is much confusion with the second set rainbows, again two releases with two different ponies.

What on earth was going on? :crazy: it is so confusing.

Please forgive me for seeming so naïve :blush:

ETA:

Looks like this has been bothering me for much longer than I thought!

http://mlparena.com/index.php/topic,290686.0.html

This has loooots of MOC pictures :)

http://mlparena.com/index.php/topic,371938.0.html

I *think* I finally understand this!

Love pkw xxx
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 05:56:22 PM by pinkkittywinks »

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 06:57:26 PM »
I just saw this thread. I feel like I should apologise for not seeing it sooner, sorry people.

Thank you for all the nice comments about my site :D

I want to emphasise that in terms of the UK release a LOT of this info was available online from the late 1990s on my original website. We did know what most of them were really early and the information was available. Kim refused to put the correct info on her website and she refused to do so to many people many times over several years. That's one of the big reasons it seems like that information wasn't available. We didn't have forums like this to post it on, and the mailing lists got hostile if you criticised DV. So information was there, but got drowned out. I feel I have to mention that as a point of pride. I have been working on this since 1997 :P.

The European info was more hazy but I had a lot of good information back then from people in France and the Netherlands about stuff sold there. I have been fighting the "UK" white tootsie and "UK" truly and cupcake myths for 20 years now. I'm still fighting them. It's very tiring because the right info has been available and online for years, and I feel frustrated knowing that in spite of that long fight, there are still sites that call them UK ponies, and still people who trust those sites.

I try my best with continental European stuff and have had a lot of awesome European people help me over the years. The UK is only documented as much as it is because I'm an obstinate obsessive and insisted on keeping my site going even if nobody else cared xD  Its nice now that it is becoming useful in figuring out other conundrums.

For the record, most of what you've been saying about Europe tallies with what I've learned from collectors in other places and also with what I've seen myself in terms of MIP items (one of my other passions is backcards of course). But I can't put all of it on my site :/ I include as much as I have been able but ultimately, my site's focus is the UK and it seems a bit irresponsible of me as a UK person to presume to speak for all different parts of Europe just because no other site is doing it. I am at risk of making as many errors in assumption as DV made about UK MLP back in the nineties.

The whole issue of the different releases in different parts of Europe has been largely ignored by big ID sites for years because they still use the Dream Valley US model. And it isn't the US model that is big and varied and confusing. It's the rest of the world. Realistically, the DV model is outdated because most countries didn't have a release that followed the US mainstream. Despite that, all new ID sites in the whole 20 years I have had my website (and there have been many) have followed that pattern established by DV in 1996. In doing so they segregate out the European ponies, and attempt to tie them into the years where the US equivalent is. If they don't fit that pattern they get left out, and so a lot of information falls by the wayside. Every time someone new decides to start an ID site, they start by asking for pictures of US ponies :/ In truth, most "US ponies" are not even actually that. Several are sold in other places too. We now know Night Glider was sold in South Africa and also in the Netherlands. But she is still a "US" pony to most people.

I don't use the NSS term any more (nor NBBE). I did originally, when I first put up my site, which was then just about the ponies we had in the UK that the US didn't have, but now it's not like that, and we have the proper information, I don't use non-terms and encourage other people not to use them either. Non-terms suggest a pony is subordinate in release to other parts of the world, and reinforces the us-mainstream system we have of pony ID, which is why there are so many gaps. Ponies have proper set names and releases, and should be classified as such, otherwise we will never get any of it straightened out at all. The rest of the world is a big place. There are more locations that had a release contrary to the US than one that matched it. But I am still the only person integrating all the releases rather than segregating US from other releases.

There is a big problem with people skipping from US mainstream to Nirvana and missing the bit in the middle. It's the interesting bit for me, so it annoys me that that's the case, but eh. What tootie_tails says in that 2012 thread you linked, PKW, is exactly true. It has been deteriorating for years and it still is the case that that information is becoming lost again, since we've lost most of the responsible G1 ID sites and the Wiki is trying to include so much it can't keep up with everything. And it is also structured on the US-mainstream pattern, which means it's already making problems for itself when dealing with stuff outside of the US. Some interesting stuff gets shoved together on the Wiki date and set-wise if you start looking at the wider links...

But this is a fond rant of mine, back on topic.

Straight hair CJ is a UK exclusive. *nods*.  UNLESS she was included in the Pony Friends set. It is hard to tell, looking at the backcard. In the 2 UK releases you can see they consciously shift her hair from curly to straight in the artwork, but the Pony Friends card seems somewhere in the middle and inconclusive. I think it possible this CJ was part of that set too - but I don't know. Maybe someone in Scandinavia might be able to help with that? In either case we do now know that magenta Posey was in that set.

Truly and Cupcake were never sold in the UK. Nor was white Tootsie. I genuinely think that Gusty was an afterthought when Hasbro suddenly realised they hadn't sold the y3 unicorn and pegasus set here after all. From backcard stories and club art of the time, I think it was meant to be Ribbon, not Gusty, but because we hadn't had Gusty at all and she was more prominent, we got her instead.

If I express my true feelings about Strawberry Reef and DV and their attempts at conveying UK pony information over the years I shall probably get banned. So I shall leave it to the imagination.

I have always been really interested in the South African release and I am so happy that we are now finding more stuff out about it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 08:03:05 PM by Taffeta »
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Offline ZuluSeashell

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2018, 12:10:47 PM »
Wow Taffeta thanks for the reply and all the info! I must say it again - your website has been super helpful! I spent hours the other evening straightening out my lists and grouping UK and Euro ponies into proper sets. It makes so much more sense.
And yes its so sad that everything has in the past revolved around the US sets and hence the rest of the world's ponies just lumped into silly categories if they did not fit the US releases. (eg NSS and NBBE).

Anyway lets hope that going forward we can keep the various countries separate and embrace the individuality of what was releases where... if that makes sense  :biggrin:

It really is a most interesting topic and makes for wonderful research! Well done for what you have painstakingly achieved over the years!

Ive always had a special interest in 'variants' and ponies from less common counties. I guess it all stems from being from a less-common country in the first place. The US ponies are of course wonderful, but relatively common and mainstream. The Euro's and UK sets were much more interesting and complicated.
For example I love that I have Posey from so many places . All different but all standing next to each other in my collection of 'international ponies' (I have US, UK magenta, Italian, Spanish, NC Spanish etc)

Anyway thanks so very much for all the help! I finally feel like this is making sense after all these years!

xxx
 :)

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2018, 02:02:12 PM »
You're welcome.

I don't have a problem with the fact that in the past things revolved around the US, because that was a core around which the community could develop. The problem is that it's still that way.

I don't want to get rid of that US core, but I kind of want to make it less of a core. The only way I could see to do it with my site was to try and include all sets together where possible, and then detail on the pages where I thought they were sold, but that's not a foolproof strategy. In any case, I don't like seeing my childhood ponies called US ponies, because I grew up with them. And I have seen people in Europe complain about ponies they grew up with being called UK ponies for the same reason.

The big issue is that although we have known for some years that the different parts of Europe had different releases, and that places like Australia, New Zealand, South Africa also had different releases from the US, people aren't doing anything about it, really. That's why this conversation and the other are so great for me, because it's that big bleak area of space that people have abandoned. I would love to see more discussions on this kind of thing, but they aren't as common as they used to be.

Unfortunately it is still okay for people like yourself to be confused and floundering around to figure out your pony collection as a child because websites are not geared up to provide the information you need collectively. We still have a long way to go to get a good working knowledge of South Africa but I do feel at last we're getting some way towards it. But websites that privelege the US line are useless to anyone trying to ID a childhood collection from outside those borders.

I really just want to see the end of "European" and "International" sections on ID sites and just have all of it integrated in together. The Wiki has gaps and holes but there is an attempt to include all versions of a pony on a single page, which is a lot more positive than some of the previous websites have had. The Wiki does still have problems with dating or tying ponies in to US set release timelines and so there are gaps and issues, but the point is, it's a huge project and the people there are trying, slowly, to get these things sorted out. I hope, one day, it'll be at a point where these things are much clearer.

In the meantime, I'll just keep stubbornly plugging away at my site :/
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Offline Leikin

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 02:17:08 PM »
Quote
Then I wonder if you guy got two waves? One with set/wave Hopscotch and Snowflake and another with Applejack and Bowtie.

Yes, I think so :) Or a continusly set that just changed in the middle. :)
Thanks for the thread, very interesting reading!  Norrskensljus is very well knowledged on our part of pony history, but there are still manyt hings to find out I think.

Quote
It is also 1986, the year in which there is much confusion with the second set rainbows, again two releases with two different ponies.
you mean with Starflower and Moondancer? I dont think Starflower was sold on the vertical card, was she? She is not included on backcard, nor on a swedish pamphlet I have with that set. At least she is very rare to find 2nd hand in Sweden, while the rest are fairly common. But it seems we got both the vertical and horizontal card with the 2nd set rainbows. At least I think all my 2nd set US carded rainbow come from the sam swedish store as everything else :P

Quote
Straight hair CJ is a UK exclusive. *nods*.  UNLESS she was included in the Pony Friends set. It is hard to tell, looking at the backcard. In the 2 UK releases you can see they consciously shift her hair from curly to straight in the artwork, but the Pony Friends card seems somewhere in the middle and inconclusive. I think it possible this CJ was part of that set too - but I don't know. Maybe someone in Scandinavia might be able to help with that? In either case we do now know that magenta Posey was in that set.
I dont think it was the straight hair  CJ in that set. At least I dont think I have seen pop up here with short hair, not that I remember at least. The one I have is from the UK. 
I find it unlikely that she was part of that set, as if she was, she would have popped up more frequent here in Sweden, like Truly or Cupcake.  But I cannot deny it 100% sure.

Quote
I really just want to see the end of "European" and "International" sections on ID sites and just have all of it integrated in together. The Wiki has gaps and holes but there is an attempt to include all versions of a pony on a single page, which is a lot more positive than some of the previous websites have had. The Wiki does still have problems with dating or tying ponies in to US set release timelines and so there are gaps and issues, but the point is, it's a huge project and the people there are trying, slowly, to get these things sorted out. I hope, one day, it'll be at a point where these things are much clearer.
I agree that it is good that the Wiki is actually trying to put a relative timeline in with the common US timeline, but it still seems focused on US, but I guess that might change the more info that gets put in on the wiki. However, there are still a lot of editors that are core US, so some belives are hard to was away.
And I'm starting to notice a trend on ebay that seller are listing variant ponies as what they are numbered as on the wiki, like "Blossom Italy variant numer five" like it is a given name of sorts, and not just a random number that has happens to have been given to a random pony. I dont know, it just kind of annoys me, as the numbering might change over time, so it would be a pity to just label a pony as variant no Xor so.  But then, it might just be me beeing fussy. :P
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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 02:49:14 PM »
The vertical rainbow card seems to exist only in scant numbers. There are two versions of the card, one features Flutterbye and the other Starflower, but I have yet to see the Starflower one in English. I have seen it in Spanish and German. I have seen the Flutterbye one in French, Spanish, German (I think) and English. Some of those are obviously Italian/Spanish made ponies, not necessarily HK.

It's possible that somewhere in the world had the Starflower card version in English and we just haven't nailed it down yet. I mean, there shouldn't be a Nestie baby box in English, as they weren't sold here - and yet there is >< So.

Thanks for the thoughts on CJ. Do you have the dark symbolled CJ with curly hair in Sweden? If so, then she is probably the one that came with that set..?

Wiki is still a US centric site. I don't think there is any way of changing that and it isn't as though we want to eradicate all the US stuff, just have more of a balance overall that prioritises information rather than regionally segregating things. There are a lot of issues and gaps still on the Wiki but the people who edit it are receptive to changes and that is a positive thing. Just it is harder for European people (or indeed, anywhere else) to contribute if it isn't clear where on the site that information fits in.

Strawberry Reef is no longer updated and yet is still heavily relied on despite the fact it has been mentioned here many times that its non US information is questionable. The same problem existed when DV was still peddling bad European information (up until DV took those sections down). It is plain irresponsible to leave up a website if you have no intention of editing the mistakes, because people rely on it :/

As for the ebay sellers, this stuff happens. The name Bobbie came from my site originally, so did the old name for the greek pony Ladybird. People do pick up on stuff from websites :/



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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2018, 07:47:54 AM »
It did? You know, I have wondered for the longest time why that pony was called Bobbie  :)

Sometimes names / terms just stick and there seems to be nothing that can be done about it. And while I agree with you wholeheartedly, I fear that NBBE and NSS for example are here to stay forever after as they are used on those main reference sites and also, very widely, on eBay. People who just have a few ponies to sell and are completely disinterested in collecting them will not go to the trouble of investigating further and so will continue to use what appears to be the accepted term for those ponies. Even new collectors generally take a while to realise that they are incorrect. Which will ensure the continuance. Sadly.

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2018, 08:24:05 AM »
The stupid thing is that neither my sister nor I can remember why we called her that. And we didn't do it with the intention of everyone else adopting it. I just had her on my site and said that she didn't really have a name but that we'd called ours Bobbie. Then I took a break from the community and by the time I came back everyone called her Bobbie. Though it has got out of hand, really, because for me only the version I have (yellow/pink hair) is Bobbie, but people use it for the blue haired one as well now.

It might have come from the Sweet Kisses card. Chrissytree suggested that to me and it's possible, although that's Bobby. But Bobbie is a girl :).

You're right about terms. It is always a long haul process. Nonetheless, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be attempted, even if it is slow progress.

I say this because when I first started this, there were a lot more misconceptions and mistakes that we had to work really hard to get rid of, but now a lot of people don't remember them.

Nobody believes now there was ever a "Prettybow" sold with the European grooming parlour (actual pony = Argentinian Flutterbye).

Mistaken names like Art Time (Paintingtime), Baby Pearl (Baby Diamond), Narcissus (Daffodil - based on her German name) and Baby Abacus (this actually her Spanish name) took a long time to eradicate. But we did more or less eradicate them.

Nobody now believes that first tooth baby Sundance or the pony friend dolls were sold in the UK.

I think mostly people also know now that blue heart Dazzleglow and lavender Woosie were sold in the US quite extensively. It comes up occasionally as a Euro variant thing but not so often any more.

Everyone knows white haired Posey is not a UK variant.

I'm still working on the UK white Tootsie and UK Cupcake and Truly but the only reason that myth still exists is because Strawberry Reef says so. I'm pretty sure the Wiki doesn't, at least I know for sure it doesn't say it with White Tootsie ;) Most of those myths that still exist relate to where ponies were sold. But I think most people also know Baby Cherries Jubilee's set wasn't sold in the UK.

So it's a long process but more people do use the terms Play & Care Set and Movie Star pony than used to. Play & Care Set is the term officially used on the Wiki for the set, which is kind of logical since it's written all over the box in big letters ;)

It's taken 20 years to get to this point but honestly, we are a ton better off than we were. But we're only at this point now because over time we've kept pushing these details until they become commonplace.

An ongoing battle.

Honestly, it's not that I completely hate the terms NSS and NBBE in all contexts. It's a bit weird, terming stuff as not being the version sold with a gimmick that came out later, but if it's Baby Cuddles or if it's Posey or even Surprise or someone like that it's just a term. It's when it's specifically applied only to the ponies sold outside the US that I have an issue with it. The terms are ugly, but what I don't like is the suggestion ponies not sold in the US are less valid versions of the US release. If it's just a general term to indicate 'has no flocking', then fine, so long as it's applied to all ponies who have a SS and a regular version. But it isn't often applied to Surprise or Heart Throb, so it doesn't make sense that it should be applied to Magic Star or Shady. I guess I feel this way as well because in UK terms, all of the early basic ponies are put together as simply "My Little Pony", so this segregation is unnatural somehow :/

As for NBBE, the Wiki uses the correct term Play & Care Set which also makes sense as it's written on the box. Again, if it's being used for all ponies that have a BBE version, eg NBBE Baby Cuddles, I have no problem with it as it's just a general classifier. But when it's being used specifically to refer to the four babies sold in the UK and Europe and not in the US, then I have a problem with it. If that makes sense.

The worst one I ever saw was NBBE NFT (Non Beddy Bye Eye Non First Tooth) baby Lickety Split as a sale/auction listing. That has to do something to a baby pony's self esteem ;)


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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2018, 01:26:30 PM »
The worst one I ever saw was NBBE NFT (Non Beddy Bye Eye Non First Tooth) baby Lickety Split as a sale/auction listing. That has to do something to a baby pony's self esteem ;)
Yeah, I have seen that one as well. ^^ For me play n care baby Lickety Split is the normal version as I had her as a child, and even though I never knew the set name as a child, I think it just seems odd to list all the things she is not, instead of just list what she actually is. ^^
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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 08:59:05 PM »
Taffeta: I've added the Bobbie, Hex and Ladybird name origins to the nirvana gallery ;) I don't think either of the Greek Easter ponies had a "given" name, both are fan/collector given names.

Quote
Quote
It is also 1986, the year in which there is much confusion with the second set rainbows, again two releases with two different ponies.
you mean with Starflower and Moondancer? I dont think Starflower was sold on the vertical card, was she? She is not included on backcard, nor on a swedish pamphlet I have with that set. At least she is very rare to find 2nd hand in Sweden, while the rest are fairly common. But it seems we got both the vertical and horizontal card with the 2nd set rainbows. At least I think all my 2nd set US carded rainbow come from the sam swedish store as everything else :P

I am think of the following two rainbow sets:

Tickle, Flutterbye, Moonstone, Confetti, Pinwheel and Trickles.

Tickle, Parasol, Starflower, Confetti, Pinwheel and Trickles.

Starshine got a rerelease with the US set didn't she?

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I can honestly say it has taken me YEARS to finally partly understand some of the European releases, even though the information is there, I've just not been able to wrap my brain round it.

Love pkw xxxx

Offline katrine2309

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Re: NSS help needed - Euro or UK?
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2018, 08:52:47 AM »
This is such an interesting read! Not sure if this helps at all, but I had CP Bowtie as a girl. She was my first pony, so I don’t remember exactly when I got her. I am born in 82, so most likely around 85-86. At the same time I got Posey, and she is not the magenta version.

Not sure at all about CP Applejack, but at least CP Bowtie was sold in Scandinavia (Norway, at least).
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