Rant: Why dyes and markers will fade

[Xenotropos]

On my travels through some pony modding sites I came across a couple suggestions on retouching/modding ponies that I found concerning.  I thought I'd post my rant about what I found here.

Why Dyes Will Fade
Some pony preservation/restoration sites suggested using dye (such as RIT) or "artists markers" (such as Prismacolor or Copic) to colour or touch up ponies.  They all mentioned that some have noticed issues with the dyes fading.  I hate to be "that guy", but having worked in the illustration field I can tell you from experience that all dyes and inks WILL fade over time.  Also, don't use markers on ponies unless you want the colour to fade and eventually bleed.  And here's why:

It's SCIENCE! if Science was an 80's cartoon...
Ever noticed how dyes and marker ink looks so brilliant?  The colour just bounces off the page, and your ponies.  The thing that makes dyes so attractive, effective, and bright is the same thing that will eventually make them fade.

If you remember your high school physics, you'll know that regular white light (sunlight) is made up of a spectrum of coloured rays.  An object appears blue because it reflects those parts of white light that appear blue to us.  Light, as weird as this sounds, is a physical thing.  Without getting too much into waves and particles, just think of light as being made of photons - small packets of light, like little glowing glass beads.

Hold that thought.

All paint or ink can be more or less sorted into two categories: dye based or pigment based.

Dyes are by their nature a liquid.  Inside that liquid is a suspension of extremely tiny particles that give it it's colour.  These tiny particles make dyes so vibrant.  It's the same reason a gem cut with many sides sparkles more than a gem with fewer sides.  More particles, more points of light bounced back. Dyes also soak into a lot of surfaces well because their coloured bits are so fine.  Dyes are found in, well, dyes, markers, inks and most alcohol based colours. 

Pigment based paint is made from ground substances suspended in something to make them spreadable.  Many of them come from minerals or earth (Burnt Sienna is - okay, in most cases - actually made from baked earth found near Sienna, Italy).  The bits are microscopic but much larger than those found in dyes.  Pigment based paint can be pretty brilliant, but less so than their dye cousins.  They also don't sink into materials as readily.  Pigment based colours will always stay to some extent on the surface of an object or cloth.  Most acrylic paint, oil paint and some "acrylic inks" (which are just really fine pigment that mimics ink) are pigment based.

Remember how I said to think of light as a stream of tiny glass beads?  Imagine billions of tiny glass beads bombarding an object at the speed of light.  Colour particles in paint and dyes eventually flake away under this pounding.  All paints of any sort fade over time, but the smaller particles flake off first.  This is why markers and dyes fade so easily.  This is also why pigments tend to be far more durable.

Artists markers are designed for use on materials that will go straight to print.  They're ideal for any work where the original isn't as important as their copies are.  Yellow markers in particular are made from a dye so fine that they are known to leach into surrounding surfaces.  I would never use markers of any sort on a pony for that reason.  They fade at a terrific rate. They're meant to live fast, die young, and make great looking temporary art.


DON'T PANIC (written in large, friendly letters)[/b]

I don't mean to say that any pony you have dyed is doomed.

No custom should ever be kept in direct sunlight, obviously.  Dyed ponies will keep their best in an unlit cabinet, or stored in boxes and displayed only on special occasions (or rotated with the seasons so they take the least amount of light damage but still can be enjoyed.  Pigment painted horses can take light, but even the best can't handle direct sunlight. 

One thing that may keep your dyed ponies better longer is to coat them with a few layers of thinned clear acrylic medium.  I did a test with marker ink, and paper that was treated after colouring with a few coats of this stayed nicer longer when hung in direct sun.  This probably works by holding down those delicate coloured particles longer.  You can get this at most art supply stores.

Another option might be to try a water-clean up polyurethane as a top coat.  They use this to protect vinyl decals on wood and it should help.  It's available at most hardware stores and comes in a matt or gloss format.  Polyurethane also has some limited UV protective properties too.

I've never found any way to prevent marker bleed.  The best advice I can give is NOT to use markers for any reason on a pony.


Lastly, The Ink That Isn't Ink
The one exception to all this is genuine India ink, or ink that states it's made with "carbon black" or "lamp black".  Carbon is a highly durable pigment, and can be ground finely enough to work like an ink.  You may want to mix it with a little acrylic medium to get it to stick to a pony though.  NOTE: Coloured India inks are NOT made with pigments and are all dyes.

The Obligatory But My Dyed Pony Hasn't Faded Answer
Hold on there, partner!  A dyed pony won't suddenly poof into an off white pony.  The difference we're talking about is years of looking perfect vs potential centuries of looking perfect.  Plastic will likely outlive western civilization.  A pony coloured with pigment paints, sealed and kept in a dry location out of direct sunlight could stay pristine long after I'm dust.  I want your mods to be handed down to collectors for decades and for your hard work to appreciated for as long as possible.  If you want to dye your ponies, go ahead.  I'm sure it'll look great.  AND you could always re-mod it later should the worst happen.  I'm just here to mention the risks.


Lastly Lastly: if this is true, where's my pile of coloured dust around my faded ponies??!!
These particles are small, I mean microscopic and then some small.  Some break into even smaller particles. Most of the dislodged particles float off in the air.  Some become part of the dust in your home.  Some get carried off when you touch a figure.  Some decay after dislodging and become base chemicals and loose atoms.  These are so small that you can't see the amount of coloured light they still reflect. So no, you can't put up a net and catch your loose colours 


In conclusion: TL;DR don't dye your ponies or use markers on them. They will  fade.  Fading bad.

[aintnobuffalo]

Thanks for sharing some insight into the science!

[Tulips]

That was an incredibly interesting read, thank you for sharing all this information. Scientific explanation makes everything in nature we take for granted so fascinating!

[Artemesia's Garden]

Great! A scientifically-minded person typing out 500 word essays so I don't have to

[banditpony]

Do people really recommend using markers for restoration? Yikes.

Could you make a recommendation on the best writing device there is for getting a pony signed? I've heard people using sharpies only to have it fade out (obviously)...

And what about dye on pony hair (like nylon or wool).

[Artemesia's Garden]

Do people really recommend using markers for restoration? Yikes.

Could you make a recommendation on the best writing device there is for getting a pony signed? I've heard people using sharpies only to have it fade out (obviously)...

And what about dye on pony hair (like nylon or wool).

Edding aerospace marker 8404 doesn't bleed BUT it isn't waterproof either so you wouldn't be able to wash the pony later.

For hair, iDye or RIT dye will dye nylon but AFAIK it's almost impossible to dye hair successfully on the pony.

[Xenotropos]

Do people really recommend using markers for restoration? Yikes.

Could you make a recommendation on the best writing device there is for getting a pony signed? I've heard people using sharpies only to have it fade out (obviously)...

And what about dye on pony hair (like nylon or wool).

I use Staedtler pigment liners for my black and white line art.  They contain (not to belabor the point) a carbon based ink that's pretty durable.  They will be wet for a while on vinyl, so if you get someone to sign them bank on leaving the pony exposed to air for at least overnight and do not let anything touch the inked area until then.  Windsor and Newton have a line of pigment markers, but I've never used 'em so I can't say how good they are.  Basically, look for a pen that states it uses pigment specifically, not dyes or colourants.


Even on hair or nylon, dyes can fade.  NOW, having said that, it depends on how the dye is placed into the product and what you're applying it to. 

Wool is likely to fade faster than nylon as it's prone to UV damage (learned this while researching carpet, of all things).

Nylon will fade faster if you use an acid dye.  This includes Kool-Aide and food colours, as well as dyes that use an acid to help the colour bind to the hair.  You'd be better off using a Reactive dye or a Direct dye.  Here's an article with suggestions, more science and product names: http://gnomespunyarn.com/wordpress/index.php/2009/07/dyeing-101-know-your-dyes-whats-the-difference-between-an-acid-dye-and-a-reactive-dye/


Fun Fact: if you're going to be storing ponies with nylon dyed hair for a long while (as in years and years), put them in a plastic bag and suck all the air out you can before sealing it, and if you really want to get hardcore about it, pop in an oxygen absorber before the final seal. You could also use one of those vacuum sealers for food storage too.  Then store your bagged ponies in a box away from light.  Apparently nylon is prone to bleaching from oxygen alone.  Nothing can stop colour loss entirely forever and ever, but this would be the equivalent of putting your ponies in a cryogenic chamber.

[banditpony]

Thank you

Hopefully this will help others if they want their ponies signed, or dying hair (for fading pink hair, one off colors or other cool effects)

[glitterball]

A great read - thanks for sharing your expertise with us! 

[Snapdragon]

Wow! Suddenly science is relevant in my life again!

I'm curious - I try to get my ponies signed with Micron artist-grade archival inking pens, would that be equivalent to Staedtler you think? They seem to last a lot longer than my Sharpie'd ponies have, with no bleeding or fading in the several years I've had them! (They also had that smearing issue you mentioned, unfortunately!!)

And - thank you so much for all of your in-depth knowledge!! I now understand a lot more about dying ponies, and I will make sure to save this post for future concerns about dying! ^_^

[bright rabbit 1]

What if you seal it with Acrylic Paint sealer? That migh stop the dye from fading.

[Xenotropos]

What if you seal it with Acrylic Paint sealer? That migh stop the dye from fading.

Acrylic paint sealer is meant to protect the top layer of a painting from dirt or dust, and to a lesser extent to keep the paint stuck on the surface it's painted onto.  It might help a bit with fading, but nothing will stop the inevitable. 

I did a "window test" with marker ink: stripes of marker on paper taped so it faces out on a sunny window, for a day or so.  One I sealed, one as it was originally.  Both faded, but the coated one was brighter.  Not a lot brighter, but still it was something.  I was hoping that the coating would somehow "turn" the ink into a plastic or an acrylic paint.  I was wrong because I didn't understand the underlying problem with ink.

The curse is that it's not the medium that makes acrylic paint so durable - it's the stuff that gives it colour in the first place.  Any paint or ink that gets it's colour from dyes or "colourants" fades faster than paint that uses a pigment base.  The acrylic medium is just the suspension that lets you paint with it.


Again, ink on a pony is not "instant death".  It will just fade much faster than pigment will.

Post Merge: April 07, 2017, 06:46:04 AM

I try to get my ponies signed with Micron artist-grade archival inking pens, would that be equivalent to Staedtler you think?

sakuraofamerica.com states the ink is "pigment based", so I would venture to say... yes?

Microns are nice inking pens.  I don't use 'em because I have a tendency to press down with everything like I'm engraving the darn drawing into my desk.  It's my bad habit.  Microns have a softer felt in their tips  than Staedtler seems to.  My poor microns end up like teeny brush pens when I'm done with 'em.  But that's an issue with ME, not the pens themselves.

[Kazzellin]

Huh! Interesting. So, am I safe in assuming that if I ever dye a pony, I should count on needing to seal the entire pony and not just the painted symbol/eyes areas (ie, treat it like a full-body repaint)? If I'm reading what you meant with the bombardment of tiny light particles, then the sealer acts as a literal shield to keep these particles from touching the paint (and therefore also the dye), right?

[Snapdragon]

LOL, that's my problem too Xenotropos! I love 'em, but MAN do I crush the poor things!

[Xenotropos]

Huh! Interesting. So, am I safe in assuming that if I ever dye a pony, I should count on needing to seal the entire pony and not just the painted symbol/eyes areas (ie, treat it like a full-body repaint)? If I'm reading what you meant with the bombardment of tiny light particles, then the sealer acts as a literal shield to keep these particles from touching the paint (and therefore also the dye), right?

Basically, yes.   

The sealer acts as a kind of shield. However I wouldn't suggest using dyes unless you absolutely have to.  Even with sealing, all dyes will fade eventually.  Light can break them down under the sealer (because the sealer is light transparent, so you can see through it) and cause them to discolour or fade. 

I'd be tempted to rotate dyed ponies on display, leaving them out for so many months then sealing them in airtight bags with as much air sucked out as possible, and putting them into a box in a dark area (like a dry closet).  In a super perfect world I'd store ponies like this in a space that's dry and stays relatively the same temperature all year round.


Again, dyes are not an automatic death sentence for your work, just not as durable as pigment based paint.