The 'average proportions' doll

[ZennaBug]

I like the concept.  I hope they do introduce more different body types, though I do like that they are focusing on healthy bodies.  But some tall dolls, short dolls, thin dolls, curvy dolls, and dolls of different ethnicity would be nice.  I had Barbies as a kid and never felt like I should look like her (my friends and I used to laugh at how ridiculous her body was), but a positive body image toy can't be a bad thing.  I don't think she's the prettiest doll I've ever seen, but I like her in concept.  If they can really work to diversify the dolls themselves and come up with some cool outfits (because let's face it, dressing up your dolls is the most fun part), then I think this could be a successful idea.

[Marionette]

Exactly. She needs some pizazz in her outfits because, at the end of the day, she's a fashion doll. Kids who play with them are kids who have an interest in fashion and/or in roleplay. That is what is needed for this doll to be successful, because she has no other gimmick. She's not a monster, princess, or whatever else, and that's perfectly fine, but that means she's missing an angle that Monster High and Disney Princess have. They can make her a soccer player, a gardener, an artist, a musician, whatever -- things real kids are! But they need to give her detailed and colorful outfits that appeal to children, along with accessories that will make roleplay fun. I also am excited to see them expand body types and ethnicities as these are also really important things if a girl is to have a doll she can identify with more, as is one of the goals here.

My personal wish... make the darn girl fully articulated! xD Then I'd probably buy them myself. As a collector I'm just really picky about dolls with knee and elbow joints because I wanna pose them. I'm not sure how much this matters to kids... probably not as much as to me, haha.

[brightberry]

I thought I remembered other dolls like this:

There was Emme
http://naturallybeautifulwomen.com/tag/emme-doll/

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=126339

And happy to be me
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/08/15/garden/she-s-no-barbie-nor-does-she-care-to-be.html

And Friends of Barbie
http://www.amazon.com/Rosie-ODonnell-Friend-Barbie-Doll/dp/B00001R3WC

[lovesbabysquirmy]

The double-edged sword of fashion dolls is that they are an expression of fantasy.  Everyone knows, for example, that Barbie's chest size is unrealistic - but media outlets peddle the notion as desirable.  The reason that one desires a fantastical scenario -such as looking like Barbie or defining oneself and self-image by that standard - are because they are fantasy. 

As Mr. Spock put it, "You may find that having is not so pleasing a thing as wanting." 

I don't particularly find this doll appealing, so there is no need to add her to my shelf.  I agree that she needs way cooler clothes - match her with a basic hand-held sewing machine and it would be great, but not this boring, everyday doll. 

[Marionette]

I'd never heard of Emme or Happy to Be Me. Emme is really cute... and articulated! :o Looking at her prices, I thought she couldn't be playline though, and it turns out she isn't. She's a collector's doll, so the demographic is a bit different (more targeted at adults and older kids who collect, not young kids who play).

The Happy to Be Me dolls are underwhelming though. They still look fairly Barbie-like to me, and they also make the mistake of rather boring clothes. Seeing as I've never heard of 'em, and they don't seem to still be made either, they seem to have not made much of a splash. This is exactly the road I hope Lammily doesn't go down.

That Rosie doll is a collector's doll too, and I think it might be a one-off sculpt, just used for Rosie.

[brightberry]

Actually, there was an Emme playline.  She was shown at the 2003 Toy Fair.

http://collectdolls.about.com/library/weekly/aa021903a.htm

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2002-02-20/features/0202200086_1_emme-robert-tonner-doll

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20020407&slug=wemmedoll07


And I also found, "Get Real Dolls".
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/08/10/get-real-girls-dolls-girls-didnt-really-get-them/

ok... I might want one of these. How cool!
http://www.behance.net/gallery/STARTUP-GET-REAL-GIRL-ACTION-DOLL-LINE/3590013

[Marionette]

Oh, that's interesting about Emme. I can't seem to find either collector or playline doll to purchase, which makes me a bit sad, but it'd probably cost too much for my taste anyway. xD

Woah, those Get Real dolls are cute! I want them now! @A@ Nakia especially. It is so, so hard to find a fully articulated 1/6 doll I like in a darker skintone that I actually like. I tend to like Japanese companies like Obitsu and Volks, and they just don't make 'em at all. I get sad when there's not a variety in my collection and I'm not able to make the characters I want to make. Unfortunately, they look a little too rare for me to want to customize, cruising ebay, but they're pretty cute as they are.

[Sunshine]

I'm not a doll person but I always love seeing people trying to... kind of "take down" the body image that Barbie puts out. Personally I never compared myself to a doll for body shape but I think all the "Real Body" dolls that have been posted here are truly lovely. If I had a kid who liked dolls I would definitely want to have her playing with "real" looking dolls like this versus Barbie. Also I really like the REASONS behind trying to make these types of dolls, it is true women in general and especially young girls suffer from bad body images, and anything positive that can show them that "size doesn't matter, size does not equal beauty" is really a positive thing I think!

[little.fox]

I am a bit perplexed as to why so many people seem to be against the idea of a doll that is supposed to promote self esteem in young people. Surely any attempt to improve the current state should be welcomed?

And as I said before, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Barbie is the root of all evil that ruins young girls lives, if you like Barbie and don't see a problem with her, that's fine, but when we are all bombarded with images of unattainable, photshopped "perfection" 24/7 from TV, films, games, magazine etc, I just don't think it's possible that it has no effect on us what so ever. I for one believe media has part of the responsibility here.

And as to those that take offense with the word "normal" in relation to Lammily, I haven't actually seen a quote from the creator using this term himself, I've only seen him state that she is average.

Of course it's impossible to manufacture one single doll that everyone will be able to idetinfy with physically, but as no-one alive will be able to identify fully with Barbie for example, (her measurements are literally impossible and most likely she wouldn't be fertile due to underweight, nor be able to stand up due to being top heavy and having unnaturally small feet) surely a doll like Lammily can only be an improvement.

[Firecracker]

I'm not against what Lamily stands for, I'm always for destroying the unreasonable views people have grown up with...  I find that Lamily's selling point by being average is just well, boring and not as marketable.  Unless she came with some fancy multi color outfit or something more exciting i can't say I would have even looked at her at all as a kid.
It's not the crazy proportions and other things that draw me to doll lines like monster high, it's the fact that they are many different color and monsters.  I'd love my monster dolls just as much if not more if they had less surreal figures.
I think that's why a lot of people are not loving Lamily.  If not for her body, why are we supposed to want her?

[brightberry]

I am a bit perplexed as to why so many people seem to be against the idea of a doll that is supposed to promote self esteem in young people. Surely any attempt to improve the current state should be welcomed?

And as I said before, I don't think anyone is suggesting that Barbie is the root of all evil that ruins young girls lives, if you like Barbie and don't see a problem with her, that's fine, but when we are all bombarded with images of unattainable, photshopped "perfection" 24/7 from TV, films, games, magazine etc, I just don't think it's possible that it has no effect on us what so ever. I for one believe media has part of the responsibility here.

And as to those that take offense with the word "normal" in relation to Lammily, I haven't actually seen a quote from the creator using this term himself, I've only seen him state that she is average.

Of course it's impossible to manufacture one single doll that everyone will be able to idetinfy with physically, but as no-one alive will be able to identify fully with Barbie for example, (her measurements are literally impossible and most likely she wouldn't be fertile due to underweight, nor be able to stand up due to being top heavy and having unnaturally small feet) surely a doll like Lammily can only be an improvement.

http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2006/04/19/post-1/

Well, this is the study results that suggests Barbie effects 1st graders self esteem.  But her grip seems to loosen with 2nd graders.  But the odd thing is that Emme effects 2nd graders even more and she is suppose to be the more realistic body.

I'm not sure what is going on with that because it doesn't answer a question.  It just creates more.  Why the drop with 2nd graders?  Why the increase with Emme?  And most importantly, why do some little girls seem to be not bothered by either doll?  That's the question I think will help girls the most.

Based on this, a doll like Lammily is not only not going to solve the problem, she can contribute to it just as much.  I don't know why.  But that looks to be the case.

My only guess is that maybe some little girls get more positive feedback about themselves than other girls do.  Maybe some are told how unrealistic Barbie is, that no one can look like that and they don't worry about it any more.  But perhaps getting the idea, "this is how you might really look and this is a standard of beauty you can live up to" could make them even more self-conscience.  After all, as little girls, they don't look anything like that and they have no idea if they ever will.  They don't even know what body type they will be.  But that's just my speculation.  The study only proves that dolls of any shape can cause many girls to not like their bodies.  That's it.

I don't think Lammily is bad at all and if kids want her, that's great.  But I don't really think she's healthier for body image. Not according to the study.  Whatever it is that makes little girls ignore Barbie and other dolls as body role models, that's the key.  That's what we really need to know.

http://www.elle.com/news/culture/lammily-real-barbie-nickolay-lamm

It’s sort of surprising that you're a male and you're making this product. You don't have daughters, either. What's the genesis?

I was reading something on the Internet, and I remember a commenter that kind of read my mind. I think it was on Huff Post. On some story, he posted a comment that said something like 'To the male, to me, Barbie…she kind of looks alien-like.' And that's what sparked it. I agree. If Barbie were a real woman, she'd be intimidating and cold, and what I like about real women is that they're warm and friendly. I just wanted to create an image that would reflect that.

Get that? Real women are warm and friendly. Not intimidating.   

[Shiromisa]

Ha, Brightberry, I was just thinking about that quote! Thank you, I'm on my phone and couldn't find it. It seems like he hasn't quite...thought this one through, you know? Like he's thought as far as "I want to make a doll that appeals to me as an adult male," without taking into account what kids want (vets and princesses and other cool story-ready things like that). I'm not sure this idea is ready for primetime.

[Aerora]

Honestly the thing that bugs me most is... the creator doesn't have a physical prototype. Yet he says he'll be able to ship out, what, thousands of dolls within the year?

(And also, yeah, I love the idea of dolls with actual body type variation! Just... that probably isn't enough to sell a line all on its own, especially in the fashion doll world.)

[little.fox]

brightberry, that is very interesting indeed, and I do agree that we need to find out more about what impact (and why) toys have on kids, but this is just one single study, it doesn't neccesarily prove anything.

[MiRaja]

It’s sort of surprising that you're a male and you're making this product. You don't have daughters, either. What's the genesis?[/b]

I was reading something on the Internet, and I remember a commenter that kind of read my mind. I think it was on Huff Post. On some story, he posted a comment that said something like 'To the male, to me, Barbie…she kind of looks alien-like.' And that's what sparked it. I agree. If Barbie were a real woman, she'd be intimidating and cold, and what I like about real women is that they're warm and friendly. I just wanted to create an image that would reflect that.

Get that? Real women are warm and friendly. Not intimidating.   
[/quote]

Clearly he's never met me. 

Anyways, I'm with Fox and what she has to say.  I've said it thrice, I believe, but no, Barbie is not the root of it all.  But she is a contributing factor and I love the word Fox said.  Bombarded.  That's exactly it, and I'm tired of the responses from people saying that OH NO, they've never been effected by this at all, but then say that the Lammily doll is simply average proportion and that Barbie's body is actually attainable.  Read:  It isn't.  No real person can look that way.  Our perception of the human body is so incredibly warped by the media these days it isn't even funny.  We see in magazines the same sort of Barbie bodies and we completely accept these bodies as real when in fact the photoshopper has taken 3-4 inches off her waist, stretched her torso, stretched her thighs and thinned those out, along with her shins too, thinned her arms ( can't have any bingo wings, now can we?! ) and also lengthened her neck. 

I am a long time sufferer of body dismorphia.  These images, these crazily thin dolls, they affected me.  I was constantly told I was too fat and by being too fat I wasn't good enough.  I was told from this by the media, kids at school, even my family.  My whole worth completely hinged on my weight and I am totally sick and tired of the continual defense of the unattainable.  The defense of it being fantasy is beginning to sound a bit old hat, too.  Is it a good fantasy for a child to have of having a body of a woman suffering from severe anorexia?  I mean that Monster High Doll whose body is actual bones?  Not cool, not cool at all in my opinion, not when so many of our women are suffering from a disease that leaves them looking little more like a bag of bones.  There is no attack on people who are thin.  The Lammily doll is not by any means fat, or even not-skinny.  Those proportions are based on the average teenage girl who is still generally pretty skinny.  Those proportions are still of a girl who wears a size 2-6.  If you wear a size 2-6 you are still skinny.  Goodness. 

And I am not even saying the Lammily doll is the answer.  I'm of the mind that his project will probably never come to fruition.  As others have said, he has no physical prototype.  All of the dolls shown are renderings.  They are not of a real doll.  I'm not sure how they're going tackle the logistics of all the joints in her body, if they're going to take a page out of vintage vinyl dolls for the knee joints and elbow joints where there is a hard plastic mechanism covered with a soft vinyl sleeve so that the dolls arms and legs are 'seamless.' . .   That is not an easy thing to mock up, but it has been done.  In all actuality, Lamily's body reminds me sort of Sweet Sue Sophisticate made in the 1960's.  She had jointed ankles that could switch from flats, ballet slippers to high heels.  It was actually quite neat. 

If it was up to me, I'd have dolls back to the way these used to be.  Not any sort of rose-tinted spectacles, but dolls in the past were done so much better.  I'm sick of the Barbie-doll that's really more an action figure than an actual doll.  :p  Larger dolls, with more complex costumes, with joints and open and close eyes.  Clothing that's made like real people's clothing, with the jewelry having just as much attention to detail as what a real person would wear.  I'm just so tired of everything so mass-produced to boot with all the unattainable images of 'beauty.'  Everything that's out now is just so ugly and cheap to me, sorry to say, and I know there are a lot of people who collect these new dolls, and if that's what you enjoy, I'm glad someone can, but I can't.  I'm really of the mind that I would prefer to spend a lot of money on one doll than buy a bunch for very little money.  Quality > Quantity. 

And I've rambled once again.