Where have all the good swaps gone? Hosts needed for new ideas

[deeleelambbaa]

My biggest beef with all the swaps is that they don't welcome newbies, and those that do, welcome the newbies with +3 feedback already, or 3 months of membership, or both and more...
in my opinion, those things don't judge if someone is new or worthy of participating with others, it should be up to the judgement of the host to pair people of similar talent.
I understand that it's the way things have been for a long time, and everyone has done it the hard way through personal swaps and all, but it really isn't a very good representing system. I and I'm sure several other "newbies" were customizing before I was a member on here, and you all have seen our work and seen us around a bit- we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place.
It's a bit of an elitist viewpoint, to make us "prove ourselves" in order to run with the rest of the clan.
In my opinion, there should be more (I'm not calling for all!) swaps that welcome ACTUAL newbies to the arena. Judge it by the number and quality of customs a person has done so far, the amount of technique s/he has explored. It may take some more effort to background check each participant, but it'll be more fun as well- Aren't we all on here stalking new posts of customs all the time anyway? It's fun to look up someone's entire gallery, see his/her progression.

[Diamond]

My biggest beef with all the swaps is that they don't welcome newbies, and those that do, welcome the newbies with +3 feedback already, or 3 months of membership, or both and more...
in my opinion, those things don't judge if someone is new or worthy of participating with others, it should be up to the judgement of the host to pair people of similar talent.
I understand that it's the way things have been for a long time, and everyone has done it the hard way through personal swaps and all, but it really isn't a very good representing system. I and I'm sure several other "newbies" were customizing before I was a member on here, and you all have seen our work and seen us around a bit- we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place.
It's a bit of an elitist viewpoint, to make us "prove ourselves" in order to run with the rest of the clan.
In my opinion, there should be more (I'm not calling for all!) swaps that welcome ACTUAL newbies to the arena. Judge it by the number and quality of customs a person has done so far, the amount of technique s/he has explored. It may take some more effort to background check each participant, but it'll be more fun as well- Aren't we all on here stalking new posts of customs all the time anyway? It's fun to look up someone's entire gallery, see his/her progression.

Unfortunately there have been too many newbies who do not come though.  Hence many swaps having newbies have at least some form of feedback.  So while it is hard to wait till you manage to get that feedback it shall be so much sweeter when you can and have proven you are as good as you say you are at getting that pony done.  There have been in the past total newbie swaps, and I am sure someone shall offer one some place along the lines.

I do not enter for two reasons, one I do not have the feedback needed, and two I am slower then molasses so I do not want anyone to not get there pony in the time frame required.  Though if someone was to offer  a carousel swap, I would clear some time and be all in.

[pop-girl]

There are many reasons why the board is not currently flooded with swaps and I think most of those reasons have already been mentioned.

I rarely join swaps anymore mainly because I have so little time to customize and what time I do have is taken up by commissions. I recently joined "The Love Swap" but it was my first swap in over 3 years. I joined because it was run by Jupi and I know she's a tough but fair swap host - I trust her enough to know this swap wouldn't be a waste of my time.

Running a swap is a huge responsibility and one that shouldn't be taken lightly. I run the Official Arena Holiday Custom Swap every year but never participate myself. I keep myself available just in case someone doesn't follow through. Once of these year's I'd like to actually sign up.

My biggest beef with all the swaps is that they don't welcome newbies, and those that do, welcome the newbies with +3 feedback already, or 3 months of membership, or both and more...
in my opinion, those things don't judge if someone is new or worthy of participating with others, it should be up to the judgement of the host to pair people of similar talent.
I understand that it's the way things have been for a long time, and everyone has done it the hard way through personal swaps and all, but it really isn't a very good representing system. I and I'm sure several other "newbies" were customizing before I was a member on here, and you all have seen our work and seen us around a bit- we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place.
It's a bit of an elitist viewpoint, to make us "prove ourselves" in order to run with the rest of the clan.
In my opinion, there should be more (I'm not calling for all!) swaps that welcome ACTUAL newbies to the arena. Judge it by the number and quality of customs a person has done so far, the amount of technique s/he has explored. It may take some more effort to background check each participant, but it'll be more fun as well- Aren't we all on here stalking new posts of customs all the time anyway? It's fun to look up someone's entire gallery, see his/her progression.

I'm not sure I understand how it is "elitist" to require some proof of reliability.
Just because a person has made custom ponies before doesn't automatically make them a responsible trade partner.

Feedback requirements do not exist to prove you can paint a pony - they exist to show you can be counted on to follow through and ship on time. Also, your feedback doesn't have to involve custom ponies, it can involve selling or trading Hasbro ponies and merchandise.

[Bladespark]

There's really no way to please everybody with swaps.  You have people who want the standards to be lower, because the strict rules make it more stressful, or because they don't have enough feedback, or whatever other reason.  Then you  have people who want the standards to be even stricter, who are afraid of not getting their half or getting something not that great.  No matter which way you go, you're going to displease some people.

Guaranteeing that all participants get something good just means putting more burden on the host, making it easy on the host makes it more likely somebody will be a deadbeat.  Anything you try to do is going to make the swap less appealing to somebody somewhere.

I think things are fine the way they are.  No system can EVER be perfect and there's no way to make it perfect.  You just do the best you can.

And I'm not doing any swaps because I just don't have time!  I'm swamped with work.  I'd like to do a private swap again someday with somebody interesting, but doing the huge group swaps doesn't appeal to me enough (no matter what the rules are) for me to spend that tiny sliver of free time on one.

[heftysmurf76]

There's really no way to please everybody with swaps.  You have people who want the standards to be lower, because the strict rules make it more stressful, or because they don't have enough feedback, or whatever other reason.  Then you  have people who want the standards to be even stricter, who are afraid of not getting their half or getting something not that great.  No matter which way you go, you're going to displease some people.

Guaranteeing that all participants get something good just means putting more burden on the host, making it easy on the host makes it more likely somebody will be a deadbeat.  Anything you try to do is going to make the swap less appealing to somebody somewhere.

I think things are fine the way they are.  No system can EVER be perfect and there's no way to make it perfect.  You just do the best you can.

NICELY said, so true, you can't please ALL the people ALL the time! There sadly are no garuntees in life or in swaps, no matter how hard you plan. You pick up the pieces to the best of your ability, "fix" it, and move on, and HOPE that a MAJORITY of the people ARE happy :-D


I count myself fortunate that in the 3 swaps I have hosted, I haven't had much trouble. I would definitely like to host again at some point, but I know better then to get that involved right now...

[NoDivision]

My biggest beef with all the swaps is that they don't welcome newbies, and those that do, welcome the newbies with +3 feedback already, or 3 months of membership, or both and more...
in my opinion, those things don't judge if someone is new or worthy of participating with others, it should be up to the judgement of the host to pair people of similar talent.
I understand that it's the way things have been for a long time, and everyone has done it the hard way through personal swaps and all, but it really isn't a very good representing system. I and I'm sure several other "newbies" were customizing before I was a member on here, and you all have seen our work and seen us around a bit- we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place.
It's a bit of an elitist viewpoint, to make us "prove ourselves" in order to run with the rest of the clan.
In my opinion, there should be more (I'm not calling for all!) swaps that welcome ACTUAL newbies to the arena. Judge it by the number and quality of customs a person has done so far, the amount of technique s/he has explored. It may take some more effort to background check each participant, but it'll be more fun as well- Aren't we all on here stalking new posts of customs all the time anyway? It's fun to look up someone's entire gallery, see his/her progression.

I'm not sure I understand how it is "elitist" to require some proof of reliability.
Just because a person has made custom ponies before doesn't automatically make them a responsible trade partner.

Feedback requirements do not exist to prove you can paint a pony - they exist to show you can be counted on to follow through and ship on time. Also, your feedback doesn't have to involve custom ponies, it can involve selling or trading Hasbro ponies and merchandise.

Quote for truth. I mean I'm sorry that some newer members feel left out but what would you rather we do? Let all people in to whatever swaps they want without having any proof if they are trustworthy or not? People would be dropping out all over the place, not sending ponies, swap hosts would be over run with unhappy participants...

Like Pop said, it's not about artistic skill. Swaps are open to people of all skill levels and are matched accordingly, and yor artistic skill has nothing to do with how long you've been here and we know that.  The requirements for feedback and being around a certain amount of time are to prove you can be trusted to follow through with commitments. It baffles me that people don't understand why that is important.
 
Also, there is no "trustworthy" test that you pass to join the arena. You sign up with a name and an e-mail address, so I don't see why you think "we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place" is a valid statement.

[deeleelambbaa]

My biggest beef with all the swaps is that they don't welcome newbies, and those that do, welcome the newbies with +3 feedback already, or 3 months of membership, or both and more...
in my opinion, those things don't judge if someone is new or worthy of participating with others, it should be up to the judgement of the host to pair people of similar talent.
I understand that it's the way things have been for a long time, and everyone has done it the hard way through personal swaps and all, but it really isn't a very good representing system. I and I'm sure several other "newbies" were customizing before I was a member on here, and you all have seen our work and seen us around a bit- we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place.
It's a bit of an elitist viewpoint, to make us "prove ourselves" in order to run with the rest of the clan.
In my opinion, there should be more (I'm not calling for all!) swaps that welcome ACTUAL newbies to the arena. Judge it by the number and quality of customs a person has done so far, the amount of technique s/he has explored. It may take some more effort to background check each participant, but it'll be more fun as well- Aren't we all on here stalking new posts of customs all the time anyway? It's fun to look up someone's entire gallery, see his/her progression.

I'm not sure I understand how it is "elitist" to require some proof of reliability.
Just because a person has made custom ponies before doesn't automatically make them a responsible trade partner.

Feedback requirements do not exist to prove you can paint a pony - they exist to show you can be counted on to follow through and ship on time. Also, your feedback doesn't have to involve custom ponies, it can involve selling or trading Hasbro ponies and merchandise.

Quote for truth. I mean I'm sorry that some newer members feel left out but what would you rather we do? Let all people in to whatever swaps they want without having any proof if they are trustworthy or not? People would be dropping out all over the place, not sending ponies, swap hosts would be over run with unhappy participants...

Like Pop said, it's not about artistic skill. Swaps are open to people of all skill levels and are matched accordingly, and yor artistic skill has nothing to do with how long you've been here and we know that.  The requirements for feedback and being around a certain amount of time are to prove you can be trusted to follow through with commitments. It baffles me that people don't understand why that is important.
 
Also, there is no "trustworthy" test that you pass to join the arena. You sign up with a name and an e-mail address, so I don't see why you think "we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place" is a valid statement.

well, it is technically elitist, by definition, to have rankings and divisions of classes between people, such as the moderators, then the people with the most posts and feedback, then the 'newbies' at the bottom with unequal rights, but I am obviously not calling for the destruction of order.
And I understand that the feedback is supposed to represent our strength of commitment, but as previously stated, there have been plenty of non-newbies that don't follow through as well, so there are holes in the feedback system.
I'd be interested to see how these strictly newbie swaps turned out in the past, if they all were wondering if their partner would follow through, being a newbie and such...
Also, many people look at feedback before buying from someone because, like you all said, it's supposed to represent if someone is trustworthy enough to ship within a reasonable time. Do you see the paradoxical cycle here? Newbies need feedback to join a swap and get more feedback to prove themselves as trustworthy members of the society, however they can only get feedback from sales that require/prefer feedback, or newbies can do personal swaps, which some people look at feedback to judge if the personal swap will be worth it. This is a very demanding niche to make home!
Finally, my note on being trustworthy in order to be on this arena is directed more towards the policies that we all agreed to, such as posting only clean content and such, showing that we're all controlled adults ( in the manners that are necessary, of course ;p ) united by such an innocent commonality- ponies. Ponies. I'll say it one more time to let it sink in: We. paint. ponies. I couldn't find it in my heart not to trust someone like that until proven otherwise.
Wouldn't it be nice to take a cue from our own governmental system: Innocent of being untrustworthy until proven guilty?
Maybe I will host a swap sometime as an experiment. Thank you for the inspiration, all.

[ViciousJupiter]

Just adding a tiny little comment.

No where does it say a newbie can't host a swap and allow all newbies to join...just sayin..you could be the one to step up to the plate on this.

Just cause some of us have been at this longer and have been througbt he fire doesnt mean we didn't all start right where you are now.  I traded and sold ponies for a year before I felt qualified to join an arena swap.  Host your own swap if you feel the other rules are too strict.

[Lucky4leafclover]

Along the same lines, there are TONS of way to establish feedback. We were ALL new once. When I was a new, I ran a FREE contest. I built my first feedbacks on my ability to follow through on shipping the prizes. I also built feedback by trading, and I sometimes had to send my end and wait until it arrived before they sent. It just works that way sometimes.

Try not to see it as a better than you attitude, we ALL started somewhere. If you have questions on how to get feedback, just ask. There are plenty of people willing to help with ideas.

On a side note, I miss my free contests, maybe some time I will bring them back.

[jupiternwndrlnd]

it's up to the swap host who they want to let into their swap.
the rules and host for a customs swap are approved by the moderators here.
sometimes even HOSTS go MIA or neglects yheir own rules and ships late. its always a risk joining a swap.
if the host is approved to run a swap that allows new members to join, then fine. i know about 6 months ago I co-hosted a "Newbie" swap, where the requirements where low, and newbies were able to join. But we still required some form of feedback. and even those who wrote me wanting to sign up with a 0 feedback, I offered a private trade with them to help them build feedback.
There are people willing to trade/buy from a new member.

[NoDivision]

Of course there are people with higher post counts and feedbacks but that does not make it an elitist system, that just means those people have been around longer and have, you know, had more transactions for which they have recieved feedback. You want to hold that against them and claim that they are elitist simply for being here longer than you?

A positive track record qualifies members to be able to take part in certain activities. Much like in the real world where you must have met certain requirements to be able to do things like drive a car or apply for certain jobs. There's nothing elitist about that. Using feedback is the best way to determine with a reasonable degree of certainty that someone is trustworthy enough to take place in a swap for which there is no real protection or reprocussions. Of course there are times when even people with good track records do something wrong, but those instances are relatively rare.

It is also extremely easy to build up feedback without already having feedback. People do it all the time. We all start with zero feedback. We all take part in transactions that allow us to gain feedback and build up that reputation.

[JSplit]

My biggest beef with all the swaps is that they don't welcome newbies, and those that do, welcome the newbies with +3 feedback already, or 3 months of membership, or both and more...
in my opinion, those things don't judge if someone is new or worthy of participating with others, it should be up to the judgement of the host to pair people of similar talent.
I understand that it's the way things have been for a long time, and everyone has done it the hard way through personal swaps and all, but it really isn't a very good representing system. I and I'm sure several other "newbies" were customizing before I was a member on here, and you all have seen our work and seen us around a bit- we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place.
It's a bit of an elitist viewpoint, to make us "prove ourselves" in order to run with the rest of the clan.
In my opinion, there should be more (I'm not calling for all!) swaps that welcome ACTUAL newbies to the arena. Judge it by the number and quality of customs a person has done so far, the amount of technique s/he has explored. It may take some more effort to background check each participant, but it'll be more fun as well- Aren't we all on here stalking new posts of customs all the time anyway? It's fun to look up someone's entire gallery, see his/her progression.

I'm not sure I understand how it is "elitist" to require some proof of reliability.
Just because a person has made custom ponies before doesn't automatically make them a responsible trade partner.

Feedback requirements do not exist to prove you can paint a pony - they exist to show you can be counted on to follow through and ship on time. Also, your feedback doesn't have to involve custom ponies, it can involve selling or trading Hasbro ponies and merchandise.

Quote for truth. I mean I'm sorry that some newer members feel left out but what would you rather we do? Let all people in to whatever swaps they want without having any proof if they are trustworthy or not? People would be dropping out all over the place, not sending ponies, swap hosts would be over run with unhappy participants...

Like Pop said, it's not about artistic skill. Swaps are open to people of all skill levels and are matched accordingly, and yor artistic skill has nothing to do with how long you've been here and we know that.  The requirements for feedback and being around a certain amount of time are to prove you can be trusted to follow through with commitments. It baffles me that people don't understand why that is important.
 
Also, there is no "trustworthy" test that you pass to join the arena. You sign up with a name and an e-mail address, so I don't see why you think "we're trustworthy people, or else we wouldn't be allowed on the arena in the first place" is a valid statement.

well, it is technically elitist, by definition, to have rankings and divisions of classes between people, such as the moderators, then the people with the most posts and feedback, then the 'newbies' at the bottom with unequal rights, but I am obviously not calling for the destruction of order.
And I understand that the feedback is supposed to represent our strength of commitment, but as previously stated, there have been plenty of non-newbies that don't follow through as well, so there are holes in the feedback system.
I'd be interested to see how these strictly newbie swaps turned out in the past, if they all were wondering if their partner would follow through, being a newbie and such...
Also, many people look at feedback before buying from someone because, like you all said, it's supposed to represent if someone is trustworthy enough to ship within a reasonable time. Do you see the paradoxical cycle here? Newbies need feedback to join a swap and get more feedback to prove themselves as trustworthy members of the society, however they can only get feedback from sales that require/prefer feedback, or newbies can do personal swaps, which some people look at feedback to judge if the personal swap will be worth it. This is a very demanding niche to make home!
Finally, my note on being trustworthy in order to be on this arena is directed more towards the policies that we all agreed to, such as posting only clean content and such, showing that we're all controlled adults ( in the manners that are necessary, of course ;p ) united by such an innocent commonality- ponies. Ponies. I'll say it one more time to let it sink in: We. paint. ponies. I couldn't find it in my heart not to trust someone like that until proven otherwise.
Wouldn't it be nice to take a cue from our own governmental system: Innocent of being untrustworthy until proven guilty?
Maybe I will host a swap sometime as an experiment. Thank you for the inspiration, all.

I may have only hosted one swap and I really loved doing it but at the same time it is nerve wracking. You have to worry about every single person shipping on time and doing the job they promised. If they don't it falls to you to "pick up the pieces" and make sure the non receiver gets something.  It's pretty hard to "make" someone do something over the internet so the only thing to go by is the feedback that others have left about their transactions with the person.  By looking at someone's feedback you can get the piece of mind of knowing they have followed through before.

As for personal swaps, I don't think that is really building feedback the hard way. It can be a great experience and can also give you the sense of what it's like to have a time frame, parameters around which to create your custom, and see just how important communication is.  No one goes into a swap (at least I hope they don't) with the intentions of going MIA or not creating a pony, but sometimes people don't know what they're getting into until it is too late. Feedback lets the swap organizer know that this is somewhat less likely to happen.

There are also other ways to gain feedback besides personal swaps. I've traded ponies I have already made with people, you can sell customs/custom supplies/ or just loose MLPs.

[deeleelambbaa]

  Like I said, I understand how the feedback system is supposed to work, I promise I really do. The reiteration is getting...well, repetitive, but thank you all for making sure I understand. 
  All I'm saying is that I think it would be fun to allow more blank-slate newbies into the swaps and see what happens. If you're a host and you don't want to, that's cool too. I'm just calling for a reconsideration by those hosts that go by the common "no newbies" rule because many other hosts are doing it.


   I've already said that I am thinking about hosting a swap, so your suggestions for me to do so are accepted encouragement, thank you.

  Thank you JSplit for telling of your own personal experience of hosting a swap, I will take your advice into consideration when I host mine- I'll make sure to do it when I have plenty of free time, after this semester ends maybe!


Didn't mean to cause a big hulabaloo about it all, obviously swaps is a touchy subject. Carry on with your various discussions, and have a pony-rific day ♥

[NoDivision]

I just don't think the "hey lets throw everyone into a swap and see what happens" attitude is a responsible one to have. That's just asking for way too much trouble. And it's not fair to your participants in they have a bad expereince because there was no sort of standard for those joining. And since swaps have to be approved by the staff here, I don't think anyone is going to let someone get away with hosting a swap that doesn't require any kind of feedback.

There are also requirements for the HOSTS of swaps - they have to meet certain fedback requirements as well since hosts are taking on a huge resposbility, as Jsplit and others have pointed out. If anyone in the swap falls through, you as a host are resposible for that. So as admirable as your desire to host a swap is, you're still gonig to have to build up your own feedback before you'd be able to.

We have newbie friendly swaps that only require minimal feedback. in swaps that have been run in the past the hosts have been very encouraging towards letting new members join and open to alternate feedback and have offered to help them build up feedback with private trades. Just because you weren't here to see it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. We have a pretty good system here and do what we can to make sure people feel encouraged. Not all swaps are open to all people, but throghout the year there are swaps for just about everyone.

[jupiternwndrlnd]

MOD WARNING: Please keep this on subject.
I do not want this turning into a "newbie vs veteran" discussion.

swaps come up all the time that are newbie friendly.