The MLP Arena

Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: LadyMoondancer on July 30, 2023, 08:34:33 AM

Title: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: LadyMoondancer on July 30, 2023, 08:34:33 AM: I dug up my old Tumblr post (https://heckyeahponyscans.tumblr.com/post/141232452188) on this subject . . . here we go!

Do you know why we call pony generations G1, G2, etc? The term didn’t originate from Hasbro--except it also sort of did.

We must first look not at ponies, but at robots.

The first Transformers line ran from 1984 to 1991.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Then in 1993 Hasbro released Transformers Generation 2, a toyline so advanced that the logo was being sucked sideways by some preternatural force.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The truth was most of the G2 Transformers were previous Transformers in new color schemes . . .

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

But the point is that if THIS toyline was Generation 2, aka G2, it implied that the 1984 - 1991 Transformers were Generation 1, or G1. Thus the terms G1 and G2 were born in the Transformers fandom.

Let’s go back to ponies.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

The original line of MLPs ran from 1982 to 1992 in the US, and a few years more in select other countries.

MLP then lay dormant until it was rebooted in 1997:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Collectors did not call the new ponies G2s. They called them “the ’97 ponies” (even the ones made in 1998, 1999, etc) or “the new ponies”.

The original ponies were called “the 80s ponies” (even the ones made from 1990 to 1992) or “the old ponies”.

Then in 2003, My Little Pony was rebooted again:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Suddenly two labels were not enough, because what were THESE ponies supposed to be called? “The new-new ponies”? No, the community needed a more clearcut way to describe these three ~~generations~~ iterations of MLP.

And so discussions began on the then-central hub of MLP collecting, the My Little Pony Trading Post. Suggestions included calling the new ponies “the 2003 ponies”, or referring to each generation by their location (Dream Valley, Friendship Garden, and Ponyville).

Then a MLP collector who also collected Transformers remembered the “Generation 2″ robots. She suggested the ponies be called G1, G2, and G3. Not only were the terms clear, but they were short--an important consideration when collectors were buying, selling, and trading on forums with limited subject-line space.

There was no “aha” moment or immediate consensus; for a while each collector called the ponies whatever they preferred. But gradually the G1 / G2 / G3 labels gained favor and became universally accepted.

As for the pony collector who made the suggestion . . .

It was me. :)

The Gx term is still mostly fanon, you don’t see it used in official merchandise much. But when Basic Fun released their retro G3 ponies . . .

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Well, it made me smile.

---

Monster High has also started using G1, G2, and G3 . . . I asked a Monster High collector when this started and she said it really kicked off when the third generation was released. Which I found really interesting.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: BlackCurtains on July 30, 2023, 08:42:11 AM: You're an old school influencer :lol:

Gx is also used with Littlest Pet Shop. But they call G1 the first bunch of the 2000 ones, not the 90s Kenner ones, which in my opinion, should be OG G1.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: brightberry on July 30, 2023, 09:16:22 AM: That’s really cool!
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Leave a Whisper on July 30, 2023, 10:21:10 AM: Thanks for the history lesson Lady M. I thought it was pretty neat.

Quote
As for the pony collector who made the suggestion . . .

It was me. :)

Also, that part made me :snicker:
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Ponybookworm on July 30, 2023, 12:46:15 PM: Interesting lore, & how chuffed you must be to be part of it!!!
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: SunbeamV on July 30, 2023, 03:38:51 PM: some days i still feel like the baby of the mlp collecting community. and then some other days, someone crucial to mlp history drops by and i have to remember i've been lurking on mlp internet for literally 20 years and i'm considered a bit of a grandpa for having seen even just the tail end of the shift from "80s ponies and 97 ponies" to "g3" :drunk:

maybe i shouldnt have been unattended online like that at age 7 but hey :lol:
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Heart Of Midnight on July 30, 2023, 03:46:03 PM: Wow! Thanks for this interesting lesson! :happy:
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: lauranthalasa on July 30, 2023, 04:13:29 PM: Love this. My boyfriend is a transformer collector and I’m a pony collector 😅
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Loa on July 30, 2023, 04:40:39 PM: I feel this inspires a custom title...
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Taffeta on July 31, 2023, 04:29:47 AM: I feel old since I remember all those things happening (lol) but I'm also glad that my memory is the same as yours about the timing and so on and so forth. I've still got old scraps of newsgroup conversations where people were complaining about how the 'new ponies' were different from the 'old ponies' and so on.

It's useful though to have this kind of discussion come up properly every so often. If nothing else it's important when people try to mislabel things like the Tales ponies, and also to show why G1 isn't divided into sub categories, and so on.

I remember you suggesting it xD. But it's kind of like symbols as a term for the pony markings. I'm sure we all grew up with our own versions - I called them rump markings because Hasbro UK did - but symbol is nice and generic and so fits well (in my opinion) across the range of things G1 has to offer.

...Of course G3/G4+ have cutie marks, but you can also tell the vintage of a collector by whether they refer to G1 pony markings as cutie marks or G4 ones as symbols xD.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Carrehz on July 31, 2023, 05:56:36 AM: Love history threads like this <3 It's important to keep info like this going.

We were definitely tossing around the "G2" term for Monster High when that started, but I agree it really took off and solidified with G3. Which honestly makes sense to me - my experience has been that when toys switch from one gen to another, without a break in between the two, the terms don't get finalized really until the new generation's over and we're onto the next one. I remember there being some debate over whether the ponies following G3 were "G3.5" or "G4" or some third thing that didn't really get settled on until G4 came out. (That's why I always said "let's wait a few months and see what Hasbro do next" whenever we had threads debating on names for the G4 movie-style ponies... I still have no idea what to call them. I usually just go with "G4 reboot"...)

Quote from: BlackCurtains on July 30, 2023, 08:42:11 AM
Gx is also used with Littlest Pet Shop. But they call G1 the first bunch of the 2000 ones, not the 90s Kenner ones, which in my opinion, should be OG G1.

Wait, really? I thought G1 LPS were the Kenner line :what:
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: BlackCurtains on July 31, 2023, 06:54:26 AM: Nope. Kenner is Kenner. If you look on eBay for example, G1 LPS will bring some of the vintage ones, but mostly it's the 2000s. If you want Kenner LPS, that's what people put them under. And whoa... have prices come down on them! :tellme: I need money!
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: SunbeamV on July 31, 2023, 10:31:53 AM: Quote from: Taffeta on July 31, 2023, 04:29:47 AM
...Of course G3/G4+ have cutie marks, but you can also tell the vintage of a collector by whether they refer to G1 pony markings as cutie marks or G4 ones as symbols xD.

i have this fun little habit of only calling g1-2 ones symbols and then g3-5 ones are specifically cutie marks. it's confused probably more than my fair share of non pony folks xD
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on July 31, 2023, 04:12:03 PM: ahhhhh i remember those days... XD

in G3 we went from "not sure about this new design.... to OMG ALL PONY SHALL BE MINE" pretty quick in the collectors' community, didn't we?

there was so much stuff to buy and buy it we did XD
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Taffeta on August 01, 2023, 12:48:03 AM: Quote from: lovesbabysquirmy on July 31, 2023, 04:12:03 PM
ahhhhh i remember those days... XD

in G3 we went from "not sure about this new design.... to OMG ALL PONY SHALL BE MINE" pretty quick in the collectors' community, didn't we?

there was so much stuff to buy and buy it we did XD

So true! There was a LOT of excitement, and people saying, "at last Hasbro have listened and made ponies that look like ponies!" and stuff like that. It was a major buzz at the time. I think G3 is underestimated by later fans, but I'm pretty sure that, had it not existed, there would never have been a potential audience for G4. In particular G3 restored the viability of the US market in Hasbro's eyes after the failure of G2.

I also agree with Carrehz (and Happy Birthday Carrehz!) that new generation terms can't be created until things settle down and you see whether it really is new or something else.

With G1, subcategories do exist, but they're just the original categories Hasbro put out, rather than anything we needed to add. I'm not talking about set names, but things like Dream Beauties, Petite Ponies - classifications that Hasbro determined that we just took on board wholesale. It's not possible to think of these as G1.5 or anything because they were around alongside the regular line, and if you look at MLP as a whole, whether in the US or in any other part of the world where the mainstream (China/HK made) line was sold, you can see ponies in the same style at the end as at the beginning. Other gimmicks got added in, but, for example, Bow Tie (1983) and Sweetheart (1993) are the exact same pose.

I guess it really shows the changes in how MLP has been marketed, tbh. Within G1, you had different ponies being sold simultaneously in different regions. Although G2 continued beyond the US line, and G3 had various store exclusives, no other MLP line has done this in quite the same way. In general, G4 was universal - with a few exceptions. I think G5 has been as well. Names are also no longer translated, even if packages are.

It makes me think that G1 was always just new idea after new idea within one bigger framework, whereas G3 and later were actually semi-rebooted midline.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Leave a Whisper on August 01, 2023, 06:51:41 AM: I call them all symbols. I can't stand the term cutie mark, it sounds really stupid to my ears and that was before they started using it in shows.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Snapdragon on August 01, 2023, 07:02:36 AM: Woah, that’s so wild!! What’s crazy is I always kind of accepted these terms, and never really stopped to think, gee, who came up with them? That’s so cool!! Kudos to you! :frolic:
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Carrehz on August 01, 2023, 12:03:28 PM: Quote from: Taffeta on August 01, 2023, 12:48:03 AM
I also agree with Carrehz (and Happy Birthday Carrehz!) that new generation terms can't be created until things settle down and you see whether it really is new or something else.

Thank you :)

I agree that G3 "saved" the line, at least for the US, or, a global thing? Hm, how to put it without it sounding like I'm throwing G2 under the bus. I think if G3 hadn't been the hit it was, or if it hadn't happened at all, I don't think the line would've died but I don't think we'd have had anything like G4, if that makes sense? I think it'd be more like LPS where they revamp it every so often and it does well, it's popular, but it doesn't really have a big media blitz or cartoon or anything. (I know there was a cartoon for one of the recent LPS gens, but that always seemed to be more riding on FiM's popularity than anything) It's just kinda quietly going along in the background. Not sure if that makes sense. But anyway yeah I agree that Certain Parts of the fandom definitely underestimate how important G3 is/was to the brand.

Really good point re: subcategories. I've seen people go "Well why don't we call Equestria Girls G4.5" and such and it's like, well, same reason Dream Beauties aren't G1.5. It's not a new gen unless it's the universal new style for the line. which kinda goes back to my earlier point of gens not really being able to be defined until they're over (or at least in full swing, like... there was debate on what to call G3.5 but I don't think there was debate on whether or not it was the new style for the line, if you get me). not just cause of the "is it a subline or is it actually a revamp" but because you need to see what the new thing means overall, if that makes sense? I know what I mean but I'm not sure how to put it into words. Like.... even if Hasbro hadn't officially dubbed Pony Life as G4.5, I'd support it being called that, because it clearly just existed as a stopgap between G4 and G5. It's the halfway point, we can see that now that it's done (well it was kinda obvious from the start, but, you know :p). Whereas in retrospect, the G4 movie reboot line was just them freshening up the current line, not actively moving towards a new gen? I guess sorta like how they started using the Bride pose a lot near the end of G1, except they fully switched over to new moulds instead of just flirting with it. We can see that _now_ buti

Quote from: Taffeta on August 01, 2023, 12:48:03 AM
I guess it really shows the changes in how MLP has been marketed, tbh. Within G1, you had different ponies being sold simultaneously in different regions. Although G2 continued beyond the US line, and G3 had various store exclusives, no other MLP line has done this in quite the same way. In general, G4 was universal - with a few exceptions. I think G5 has been as well. Names are also no longer translated, even if packages are.

I think this applies to most things, really. Everything's a lot more "universal" and consistent now, more unified. Not just toys, but the media surrounding them too, it used to be you'd have other countries doing their own stuff and going off the rails or whatever... thinking like... I dunno, the Italian pony comics, or that Dutch G2 CD. (can think of better examples for non-pony stuff but I'm trying not to go too off-topic here :p) There was a lot more of countries just making their own stuff up and doing whatever. Now everything's pretty much the same the world over and just translated? Which I guess is because it's so much easier for everyone to communicate cross-country now. It's cool but it does make me kind of sad, in a way, to lose the individuality (? what word do I want here) we used to have there.

IIRC Hasbro said the names are the same now because it's easier/cheaper (?) to just trademark one name rather than have to go through the trademarking process for each country. I know that's why they tend towards nonsense names like Scootaloo, Tink-a-Tink-a-Too, etc instead of like how G1/G2 had names like Firefly, Ivy, Billie, etc, because it's easier to trademark things that aren't common words/names/etc.

Quote from: Leave a Whisper on August 01, 2023, 06:51:41 AM
I call them all symbols. I can't stand the term cutie mark, it sounds really stupid to my ears and that was before they started using it in shows.
Same here - heck I didn't like "cutie mark" before Hasbro coined it. (Animaniacs used it first! :P)
I admit I can't help but twitch when I see people use it for G1/2. Okay... I have that reaction any time I see the term. XD But with G3-5 I'll tell myself "Alright self, chill, it's the official term" you know? not that I'd "correct" anyone or whatever, people can use whatever name they prefer and all.. it just bugs me XD
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Ponybookworm on August 01, 2023, 02:28:41 PM: I don't like Cutie Mark either. It feels like being talked down to every time I hear it!!!
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Carrehz on August 01, 2023, 04:22:05 PM: Quote from: Ponybookworm on August 01, 2023, 02:28:41 PM
I don't like Cutie Mark either. It feels like being talked down to every time I hear it!!!

Ahhh that's it!! Somehow it just feels patronizing, I dunno why.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 01, 2023, 05:32:56 PM: Yeah, I don't like "cutie mark" either. But it is probably trademarkable, ha ha. I remember during G3 a lot of collectors would call just the hoof-heart (on the magnet foot) a cutie mark.

I agree that G3 brought My Little Pony to the forefront again. I counted how many individual ponies were released one year and it was a crazy amount. Like, 90 different characters. And then the HUUUUGE playsets. I wonder if G3 was more of a monetary success than G4 in terms of toy sales. (But MLP FIM did better with merchandise sales for sure . . . Funko Pops etc.)

About names, I like how they gave the G5 ponies last names because now they can use whatever short name they want (like Sunny) and add the last name to make it unique enough to trademark. Much better than calling a pony Hitcharoo or Pipp-a-Dipp-a-Dee or whatever. :lol:

I watched a fan video explaining the different Littlest Pet Shop generations and it was very interesting, but I must confess . . . all the generations look exactly the same to me. (Except the Kenner ones.) This must be how non-MLP collectors feel when I show them my ponies.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Carrehz on August 01, 2023, 06:07:28 PM: the LPS gens all seem so arbitrary to me too! except for the.. original style? G1? sdfghj I'm sure Kenner used to be G1, this is driving me crazy haha. I can see why they'd be considered a separate thing though since they really are a different toy apart from the name.
But yeah I was saying, I see the difference between, the original Hasbro ones and the first reboot that didn't have the bobbleheads. And then the reboot after that that brought back the bobbleheads. After that it kinda loses me ^^;

I remember the whole "is 'cutie mark' the hoof heart or the hip symbol?" thing too!! And then I think eventually there was a G3 backcard or something that made it explicitly clear it was the hip symbol?

Quote from: LadyMoondancer on August 01, 2023, 05:32:56 PM
Pipp-a-Dipp-a-Dee

:lmao:
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Leave a Whisper on August 01, 2023, 06:25:17 PM: Quote
Much better than calling a pony Hitcharoo or Pipp-a-Dipp-a-Dee or whatever. :lol:

>_<
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Taffeta on August 02, 2023, 04:27:32 AM: If those two names come up now in G5 we'll know Hasbro are watching ;)

The irony of G2 was that it didn't sell well in the US, and of course we know that there was backlash. But around 2000, the first set to not be sold in the US included Silver Swirl the unicorn. I remember one US collector complaining that they started bringing out the good stuff after the US line ended...

Not to go off topic on the regional thing -aside to say that G1's regional diversity is one of it's biggest plus points for me - but in terms of whether G3 saved MLP globally...it probably did, because the North American market (Canada included of course) is massive and that's going to sway people's decision making. Especially with a US company at the helm. But in the case of G1 and G2, MLP survived longer in Europe than it did in north America. I always think that it's interesting how the companies here wanted to give the line more time...and succeeded in doing so, even if it was just for a couple of years. I often wonder if that latter G2 success in Europe helped persuade Hasbro in the US to try again.

I also remember those discussions about 'what the heck is a cutie mark!' in G3 xD.

I don't like the term either - I always found it patronising, like the need to cutesify things targeted at girls. It seemed like that to me. There's a big linguistic difference between 'cute' and 'cutie' in my opinion. But I think I also find it jarring because 'cutie' isn't a word that is well used in the UK just in general.

I hate that it is used on the BF pony boxes. But then in the 80s and 90s, Hasbro would reprint boxes to reflect correct regional spellings and terminology (Mum instead of Mom, colour instead of color just to name two examples) and now they don't bother, to save costs...which I also don't really like.

What's interesting to me with cutie mark as a term is that I found it nauseating but mostly irrelevant in G3. I disliked it but I didn't feel triggered by it when people used it. It just goes to show how obnoxious the cutie mark crusading was in G4, because now when I see it used for G1, it irks me a lot more.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: BlackCurtains on August 02, 2023, 07:12:49 AM: I think the cutie mark being used for G1/all ponies is a lot like personal pronouns. Like, if you grew up with G4 and all you know is cutie mark, then calling them that on G1 is just a mistake, you don't know any better. But once people start to point out that they are called symbols, if you deliberately keep calling them cutie marks, than you are being annoying and disrespectful. Of course it's worse with pronouns, but I think it's the same kind of attitude. "This is what I know, so that is what it is and I refuse to accommodate by doing a simple thing."
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 02, 2023, 09:34:21 AM: I've seen new users dogpiled on the board for saying "cutie mark" in reference to G1 and boy . . . that was a bad look. We don't have to be a hivemind. I call them symbols, but I don't care if other people call them cutie marks, tramp stamps, or whatever, lol. I've never had anyone jump down my throat for calling the G3 tramp stamps "symbols", which is technically the wrong term, so I don't know why I should wring my hands over someone calling a G1's tramp stamp a cutie mark.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: brightberry on August 02, 2023, 03:51:31 PM: I wasn't online in the 80s obviously. :P But I remember never knowing what to call it. I went with "markings" or sometimes "symbols". Whatever people choose to use, I don't mind. Well, maybe not "tramp stamp." lol
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Taffeta on August 03, 2023, 01:51:17 AM: I feel like symbol is generic and neutral simply because it's not official to any generation. I won't pile on someone for using cutie mark for G1, I just find it triggering. But mostly I accept that it's when people have come in from G4 to G1 and that's what they know. If it comes up in a discussion, though, I think it's ok to point out that it's a later term. But as I said before, the behaviour of bronies generally in trying to force their way on older gen fans is the reason it triggers me. I wouldn't even notice if it hadn't been for all the other stuff.

Symbol is not the same as cutie mark, though. It's not official, it doesn't associate to one or two specific generations, and it's entirely generic and used for collector convenience. It's very much a toy collectoresque term, but that's all.

Hasbro used various terms in the eighties and nineties. Design seems quite common. Rump design or rump marking is also an official Hasbro designation, at least in the UK:
(below courtesy of Chrissytree, see the text on the pony gimmick instructions)
Spoiler
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

So calling a G1 symbol a cutie mark and calling a G4 marking a rump design is equivalent. Calling either a symbol is generic, and there was never any real issue about doing so beyond G1 until G4.

Symbol can apply to all ponies of any generation, at least when talking about the toys. Cutie mark and rump design cannot.
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: FernMariposa919 on August 03, 2023, 01:39:49 PM: Hey, that's really cool and I love the little twist at the end. I honestly never gave much thought about when ponies were called G1, G2, G3, etc. I know it wasn't always the case and had to come from somewhere, but now I'm glad I know!
Title: Re: Etymology: When Ponies Became G[X]
Post by: Carrehz on August 04, 2023, 10:24:01 AM: Yeah, seeing "cutie mark" applied to G1/G2 annoys me, but I wouldn't "correct" someone. It's like how it bugs me that "alicorn" became the official term for winged pegasi, to me it's wrong (alicorns are unicorn horns!!!), but I'm not going to go about policing what other people say or whatever. Explaining the difference in terms though is fair enough IMO, especially since the two ARE different in-universe/lore-wise/however you want to put it... since G4 started the whole "cutie marks have to be earned/represent their ~*special talent*~" bit.. which just wasn't a thing at all in earlier gens. so even past my own personal preference, it makes sense to me to differentiate between "symbols" and "cutie marks", you know?

I'm like... 98% sure "rump symbol" was used a few times in G2 too. And I want to say the Tales model sheets called them "emblems"?