The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: elish2 on September 12, 2013, 10:21:24 PM
-
Was having a chat with the hubby, who studies economics interestingly enough and got onto the subject of MLP and devaluation of prices.
Now I know that we all collect ponies because we love them and love looking at them and holding them...but there are some instances in which something has come up in our lives in which we have to make some quick cash and may need to sell some ponies in order to make ends meet...
Being an avid G3 collector, and since I have been updating my G3 checklist/price guide, I have noticed a lull and a devaluation in G3 prices, and not just these lovely gals, I think I have begun to note the falling of some prices in other gens as well. Which got me thinking about the whole buying process of we consumers.
It made me think of a Economist by the name of Milton Friedman. Paraphrasing something he said in regards to this: Consumers want to buy things at lower prices, but want to sell at higher prices.
Obviously selling the item at a higher price would create some value, and if people are willing to pay a slightly higher price that increases the value of the item. So here is a kind of thought, has some of the negativity with the value of, for example, G3 items have caused the prices to drop? Being unwilling to pay more than $3 for a G3 pony because the idea that they are not worth much could possibly be the key to the stagnation in the prices? If we were willing to pay a little more for that pony we think is nice, say $5 instead of $3, would that not help increase the value of said ponies? I know everyone is looking for ways to save a couple of bucks, but is it not interesting that buying a pony at a really low price just devalued that pony we just bought...Kind of an interesting thought...
-
If by economist you mean scalper? :lol: :huh:
G3's are pretty common in garage sales, thrift shops and such compared to G1 and G2's. They can even be found on some discount store shelves if your lucky.
I did notice a lot of "lots" sold on eBay are mostly G3's and individual prices for more common ponies aren't much higher than $8 a G3.
Honestly, I don't collect them. The G3's I do have came from lots in which I bought strictly for the G1's and G2's or accessories. I don't toss them or sell them since I do find them cute but I honestly would pass G3's up since my appeal rests mostly in G1 and G2's.
Plus, they are not really that fresh off the shelves yet, meaning we could see increases once a new gen MLP is released or enough time has passed where G3's become more difficult to find.
-
The flaw in that argument is that it doesn't account for all the variables.
Even if we assume that there were equal numbers of G3's produced on average compared to G1's or G2's (G2's almost certainly had smaller runs), one of the major things that changed was who was buying ponies and what was happening to those toys. In the era of G1, there were hardly any "collectors" as we think of them today, with rooms full of carefully groomed ponies and stacks of MIP ponies - there were some, but they were very few.
The vast majority of ponies were bought for children and opened. By the era of G3, the majority of ponies were still being bought for and played with by kids - but there was already an established collector community, and pretty much everyone purchased entire sets of ponies and either kept them in mint condition or in the box, if they had any desire to own the newest generation. That is likely why there is so little market for G3's - the people who want them right now already have them, the future collectors who outgrew G3 aren't yet cycling back into nostalgia, and even then it's going to be easier for them to pick up those childhood toys.
The way we acquire pieces for our collection has also changed radically. Most of the G1 era predates the internet. The only way of getting ponies was trading with other collectors or hunting them out in the "wild" - garage sales, estate sales, thrift stores. There was no Ebay, no Craigslist. Ponies weren't considered valuable, many were thrown away or otherwise lost.
-
The vast majority of ponies were bought for children and opened. By the era of G3, the majority of ponies were still being bought for and played with by kids - but there was already an established collector community, and pretty much everyone purchased entire sets of ponies and either kept them in mint condition or in the box, if they had any desire to own the newest generation. That is likely why there is so little market for G3's - the people who want them right now already have them, the future collectors who outgrew G3 aren't yet cycling back into nostalgia, and even then it's going to be easier for them to pick up those childhood toys.
This very much! There is simply a more vast supply of G3 and price/value is very much determined by supply and demand. There is more supply, less demand for G3 than G1, for example, so the prices are lower. Also, with collectibles like ponies that don't have a more or less 'fixed' value like electronics have, the price is determined by what people are willing to pay. We as the collectors are placing value on them based on availability and popularity. This is why Nirvanas reach high prices- not many available. Still, a pony may be more scarce but less sought after, and its price will be lower (for example, rare G2s. Some G2s are definitely rarer than say, a Mimic, but the latter will reach a higher price).
-
A lot of collectors may be saving up sets of G3s and there may have been more made than G1 or G2 but there are also more people in the world than in 1985. All those kids that played with G3 ponies and sold them in garage sales, dontated them, etc. will become adults and may decide they want to re-acquire their childhood ponies, just like a lot of G1 collectors. One of the main things that drive the prices of these things and other toys and "vintage" items are buyers trying to recreate their childhood. Sometimes it is nostalgia and sometimes it is for their own kids. For stuff like this it really is the buyer that sets the prices. A seller can price an item at whatever they want, but someone has to actually buy it to make it worth that. My Aunt sells full time on eBay and something she always told me was, "It is only worth what someone will pay for it." There is such a nice and honest community here. Pony collectors are lucky to have a place like this to trade, sell and buy.
Right now the G3s are very much victims of supply/demand as they are easily found at yard sales, thrift stores, etc but how many of those kids are going to come back looking for their favorites ponies some day?? Will some of them be worth as much as some of the G1s? Who knows? The world will be such a different place when those G3 kids are 30 years old.
-
This very much! There is simply a more vast supply of G3 and price/value is very much determined by supply and demand. There is more supply, less demand for G3 than G1, for example, so the prices are lower. Also, with collectibles like ponies that don't have a more or less 'fixed' value like electronics have, the price is determined by what people are willing to pay. We as the collectors are placing value on them based on availability and popularity. This is why Nirvanas reach high prices- not many available. Still, a pony may be more scarce but less sought after, and its price will be lower (for example, rare G2s. Some G2s are definitely rarer than say, a Mimic, but the latter will reach a higher price).
This is exactly what I am saying :) We determine the value based off of what we are willing to pay. Supply and demand may affect prices, but only based on the idea that the consumer will pay less because it is so easy to find, or higher because it is harder to find. Prices are usually set based on what people are willing to pay. For example something may be very common, but if people are willing to pay $50 per one, then that sets the price.
It was just an interesting way to look at the possibility that buying things for really good deals, could actually devalue the item we just bought. :)
I just want to clarify that I am not just talking g3. I happen to know a lot more about g3, but I meant in general I thought there was a lull in prices.
If by economist you mean scalper? :lol: :huh:
Truthfully in reality most people want this. Economically speaking that is exactly the way it is. They want to buy for the lowest price, but then sell items at the highest possible price. Otherwise Nike wouldn't be making the shoes for $0.50 then selling them for $100. People are willing to pay the price, so they will therefore sell it as such. If you find a Mimic for $0.01 and need to sell her later, you would more than likely sell her for more than that $0.01...(wow Mimic for a $0.01 is a dream lol :) ).
-
I agree with all of the points above.
In regards to future generations of collectors, here is my perspective. I'll compare it to myself. I was born in 1980. I was totally into MLP as a child. However, by my early teens, other things had taken my interest. It wasn't until my later teens that I was struck by nostalgia and even then I didn't always have the buying power to purchase ponies outside of garage sales and thrift stores. So compare that to a child born in 2000. That child today would only be 13.
Of course, there is also the ultimate consideration of the larger economy. Lots of people just can't afford to pay for extras right now.
-
I just want to clarify that I am not just talking g3. I happen to know a lot more about g3, but I meant in general I thought there was a lull in prices.
Prices are definitely down, but that is simply down to (here comes the dreaded word) 'the economy'. People have less to spend on frivolous things, logical result. Some things are holding their value though- mostly HTF/Nirvana's.
For the rest, it may be because I am not a native speaker but I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. We're making ponies worth less because we're willing to pay less? Yes, definitely the value is determined by what collectors are willing to pay- but, that's really logical to me. Thus, prices/value fluctuates and are not fixed. So, in buying AND selling, everybody looks for the most opportune moment to get the best price. Collectibles will always be a gamble in that way, since you can never be sure things will hold their value.
-
Prices are definitely down, but that is simply down to (here comes the dreaded word) 'the economy'. People have less to spend on frivolous things, logical result. Some things are holding their value though- mostly HTF/Nirvana's.
For the rest, it may be because I am not a native speaker but I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. We're making ponies worth less because we're willing to pay less? Yes, definitely the value is determined by what collectors are willing to pay- but, that's really logical to me. Thus, prices/value fluctuates and are not fixed. So, in buying AND selling, everybody looks for the most opportune moment to get the best price. Collectibles will always be a gamble in that way, since you can never be sure things will hold their value.
That is actually the point I am making. I just felt it was an interesting thing to think about, as my hubby brought it up. Fluctuation based on willingness to pay. :)
-
I think it also matters, in part, in how much a seller is willing to sell for. I may decide I was only going to pay $.01 for a Mimic, but I'm probably not going to find a seller willing to part with it at that price. Some negotiation is going to have to happen if I really want that Mimic. If sellers all decided their ponies had devalued to .25 a pony, I'm sure buyers will happily agree. So a seller could just as easily devalue ponies. I know if I want to sell something quickly, I can mark it down significantly. If I flood the market at that price, I could devalue all objects in that market. It happens all the time with mass production.
I think if there were fewer g3 ponies and sellers were harder to part from them, the price would go up even if there are fewer buyers. There will always be someone who wants one. But because these ponies are everywhere and you can always find a bargain if you wait long enough, sellers are having a harder time setting the price.
-
That is actually the point I am making. I just felt it was an interesting thing to think about, as my hubby brought it up. Fluctuation based on willingness to pay. :)
OK, got it now :) thanks for clarifying, sorry.
-
It comes down to supply and demand, though. There's a huge supply of G3s, because kids who grew up with them are done playing with them, and moving on (remember, G1s used to be like that too, in the 90s). They are all over ebay, garage sales, thrift stores, local listing etc. There's not enough demand to match that.
Chances are, for the hardcore G3 collectors, you have all but there rare ones by now. If you want to sell them, you have to price them low (or get absolutely every thift store, pony collector, and parent to match you, but that's really really unlikely). The MiB ones have maintained some value, but the market is flooded with loose ones. My MiB ones are all priced at less than I bought them for, but they still don't move fast.
-
I think it also matters, in part, in how much a seller is willing to sell for. I may decide I was only going to pay $.01 for a Mimic, but I'm probably not going to find a seller willing to part with it at that price. Some negotiation is going to have to happen if I really want that Mimic. If sellers all decided their ponies had devalued to .25 a pony, I'm sure buyers will happily agree. So a seller could just as easily devalue ponies. I know if I want to sell something quickly, I can mark it down significantly. If I flood the market at that price, I could devalue all objects in that market. It happens all the time with mass production.
I think if there were fewer g3 ponies and sellers were harder to part from them, the price would go up even if there are fewer buyers. There will always be someone who wants one. But because these ponies are everywhere and you can always find a bargain if you wait long enough, sellers are having a harder time setting the price.
Buyers are the ones who will ultimately decide the price for the item. The seller will only sell an item if a person is willing to pay it. If everyone demanded mimic at $0.01 then the seller would not be able to sell the item for higher than that.
Lol my hubby has me thinking economic theories....interesting discussion on it though.... :P
-
Its an abrupt answer but "no" :P The theory that reducing the price on a product devalues it in the eyes of consumers is a standard economics line. Its something you always need to be aware of when promoting products; the store that has a sale on 10 months out of 12 is unlikely to gets customers willing to pay full price; the bag of crisps which always had 50% free is seldom going to sell many of its normal sized bags at the same price.
But I don't think this economics theory of devaluing due to purchase point works the same way with collectibles. We are the product owners/sellers, we are the product buyers. Its a very unique economy which only truly exists within collectible/hobby markets. The market naturally allows people to pay below "average", above "average" and on "average", this means that we are controlling the market already. In addition there is no such thing as an RRP for any pony - there is a different perspective from almost every collector; what I will pay someone else may be unwilling to or where my limit is someone else may be willing to go higher. You cant adjust a market for collectible second hand goods which are in the hands of individuals and not commercial money making organisations - the market does not work the same way.
I dont think what we pay for an item "devalues" it; it is not devalued to the person who purchased the item - it is exactly what they were willing to pay for it [even if that is over, under or exactly what it "averages"]. You can devalue something which does not have a set price. And I will be selfish and say no I would not be willing to pay an extra $ for the pony I am purchasing because all I am doing it paying over its "worth" to the market, I am not increasing its value by paying more for it...I am simply paying more.
As others have said here we are not talking about something which has an RRP - you cant compare the price of second hand collectible MLPs to sneakers. Its not buyers who set the price of Nike trainers; its Nike and the wider market. They build a brand, a desirability - they set a price - the market sets consumable prices, inflation, etc. That's what sets a price not the buyer.
As others have said yes pony prices are down - across the first 3 generations - however look at some of the prices some G4 go for, they are above retail. Its something which happens naturally when a new generation is around and sought after, the most recent line always suffers when people re direct their free change. It will adjust as the years go on. Sometimes up...sometimes down.
-
I think it also matters, in part, in how much a seller is willing to sell for. I may decide I was only going to pay $.01 for a Mimic, but I'm probably not going to find a seller willing to part with it at that price. Some negotiation is going to have to happen if I really want that Mimic. If sellers all decided their ponies had devalued to .25 a pony, I'm sure buyers will happily agree. So a seller could just as easily devalue ponies. I know if I want to sell something quickly, I can mark it down significantly. If I flood the market at that price, I could devalue all objects in that market. It happens all the time with mass production.
I think if there were fewer g3 ponies and sellers were harder to part from them, the price would go up even if there are fewer buyers. There will always be someone who wants one. But because these ponies are everywhere and you can always find a bargain if you wait long enough, sellers are having a harder time setting the price.
Buyers are the ones who will ultimately decide the price for the item. The seller will only sell an item if a person is willing to pay it. If everyone demanded mimic at $0.01 then the seller would not be able to sell the item for higher than that.
Lol my hubby has me thinking economic theories....interesting discussion on it though.... :P
But then the seller has to agree to that price. I think as collectors, we aren't as inclined to sell off our collections. The buyers have to convince us that the market is too good to pass up. Selling any ponies at $.01 would make ebay pointless. People aren't going to go through all that trouble for a penny. I have plenty of ponies I could sell, but the amount I would get for them doesn't make it worth the pain and trouble of parting with them. It's only when people are willing to pay a certain price that others are willing to sell. It's a balancing act.
-
Time of year plays a role. You will notice around... end of November, prices will start to go back up. And come the new year - when collectors are getting their tax returns? Then it jumps back up. And drops during the summer. And goes back up just before Christmas... etc.
-
Since we are talking about pony devaluation, I had a thought on G4s. I know it is kind of unrelated to what you were saying about G3s but it is still related, in a sort.
I posit that once the Brony fandom dies out and MLP becomes just an internet fad (for some of those said Bronies) that the market for G4s will fall out, to an extent. Bronies will sell off their collections and won't buy any future releases, ponies will flood the market, and G4s will be worth even less than G3s.
Plus with more collectors than ever, keeping well maintained, mint to nearly mint merchandise, we will have piles of ponies who will be virtually worthless. We pay top dollar for FS AJ, Euro-only brushable releases, etc now but I think that in some time, these same small horses will be worth just a fraction of even their original retail prices.
But then, that is just my opinion.
-
G3s just aren't as scarce as G2s and G1's. The children who had G3s are coming to an age where they don't play with toys or are teenagers now (my sister is one of them) and thus, there is an influx of G3s on the market. If someone suddenly found an abandoned warehouse full of G1 Rapunzels and those were put on the market, they would no longer be selling for hundreds of dollars because there is a surplus.
It's like how lobster is pretty cheap (comparatively) in Maine right now, because fisherman caught an unusually high amount of them this summer. A surplus means people are more eager to move the product for a lower price then to hold out for a steeper one.