The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: MJNSEIFER on July 23, 2013, 05:47:47 PM
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I feel kind of awkward asking this, but has been something I've been meaning to ask, and also, in a sense get off my chest for a while. I really hope no one takes it the wrong way...
I understand now that My Little Pony is primarily a girl's franchise (I was a little confused about something Bonnie said before, but I get it now) and I don't mind that I am a boy watching it, it has never bothered me, even when people told me it should, and even when I believed myself I shouldn't ever become a fan, I feel like I always didn't care deep down.
I didn't realize this until long after I became a fan, and saw other opinions on things, but I realized something about myself - I care so little about what gender something is marketed towards, I actually can't tell the difference anymore, and probably never could.
I see people fighting within the brony fandom about which generation is more girly than the other, or more boyish than the other, and while, in general (not just for MLP) neither is really a bad thing, I can't see anything girly or boyish about any of them - they all look genderless to me, like they could be enjoyed by a boy or a girl.
This isn't a macho thing, like I say I am fine with the idea of me, a guy, liking something made for girls, but what is it that makes people look at any generation of My Little Pony and think that it's not only for girls, but is also "girly"?
If you take the time to answer this, you will most probably get a confused or surprised response from me, so be warned. This is because, like I said, I have never really categorised "Boy stuff" and "Girl Stuff", so it comes a shock to me when I see things done so. For example, I always felt the slumber parties was something either gender did (I hosted a few when I was young), but someone on the MLP: FIM wikia said that it was a girly activity, and some ponies have been accused of being more "boy" like just because they are more "action packed" than the other girls, yet I've never associated that as just a boy thing.
Also I notice a lot of male bronies say that G3 (the show) is too girly for them, but to be it doesn't seem any less girly, or anymore girly than the other generations, is there any truth to what they're saying or is this just another anti-G3 thing (not that "Being girly" is a good reason to be "anti-anything". Also, I love G3.)
And yes, I know that ponies are regarded as a girl's animal, but even that is something I never understood.
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For me, I don't find My Little Pony...any gen...particularly "girly". Feminine, yes, but I don't consider girly and feminine to be the same thing.
To me girly is the stereotypical "pinkboycrazypopulargirlteenager" nonsense that people assume anything aimed at females is....but traditionally feminine things can be liked by anyone, just like traditionally masculine things can be.
Just because pastels, love, friendship and magic have been aimed primarily at girls doesn't make them bad, and to me the term "girly" always seemed bad. Sort of in the way someone would say to a baseball player that he "throws like a girl."
.....This doesn't really make a lot of sense, does it. Haha.
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(My comments were exsessive and inappropriate, mods please delete)
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I think that this is a very complex subject and there isn't a simple answer. But if I had to put it down to 3 things, these would be the 3 things I would guess.
1) Brushable hair- stereotypically girls like to do their hair more than boys. I can not think of a single toy in the boy's toy section that has brushable hair. In fact the only toy I can think of seeing in the boys section that does not have molded hair is Jesse from Toy Story. And you'll notice that her hair is "pre-styled" to look just like the character in the movies. I also find it interesting that there was never so much of a call for "show accurate" characters until the fan base had such a large influx of male fans.
2) Colors- Girls/women are allowed a much wider range of color choices than boys/men. Of course, there is the occasional guy who is comfortable in pink or purple. But most men I know will only wear a limited number of colors. You can even see it reflected in FIM itself. Most of the male characters are white/grey/brown/blue with the occasional red or orange thrown in. Even on a female oriented show about brightly colored ponies, the boys are very limited in color.
3) Conflict resolution- women are seen as being stronger on the interpersonal front. It seems that any story line that can be resolved by "getting to know yourself" or "talk it out and hug" is deemed feminine. Stereotypically, if two males are in a disagreement, they fight it out, sometimes physically, and then slap each others back to make up. In addition, again stereotypically, guys would rather fight an outside enemy than sit and discuss their feelings. As a result, a storyline with villains would be more stereotypically masculine than a storyline with no discernable villain or something to "fight."
These are just my initial thoughts, I'm sure this kind of discussion could go on, and on, and on.....
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Also the presence of songs. Although some "gender neutral" shows like Phineas & Ferb now have song sequences, songs in Saturday morning cartoons are definitely associated with "girls programming". Especially in the 80s. If it had songs and it was for girls. (Except for animated MOVIES like Disney flicks. Go figure, right?)
I suggest you track down the book "Sold Separately" from Amazon, it analyzes the differences in how girls' programming and advertisements differed from boys' programming and advertisements.
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(http://www.amazon.com/Sold-Separately-Children-Consumer-Communications/dp/081352198X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374630612&sr=8-1&keywords=sold+separately)
The book was written in the early 90s, so it doesn't have anything super recent in it, but it is interesting and does analyze the plots of two "MLP & Friends" shows.
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If you mean by "girly" that the show appeals to girls- I would say that that the fact that all of the main characters are females- (in both the old show and the new) suggests that the show was aimed at girls. It is after all essentially a commercial to sell pony toys- which prior to FiM, were primarily purchased by and for little girls. (Not saying I agree with what was going on, just stating the obvious).
I loved it when boys started buying ponies and watching the show, thinking that this would lead to a more widespread acceptance of boys who would rather play with ponies and strawberry shortcake dolls (say), than more traditionally "male" pastimes or toys.
I absolutely love and adore families that don't try to shove gender norms down their kids throats (be they boy or girl).
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Also the presence of songs. Although some "gender neutral" shows like Phineas & Ferb now have song sequences, songs in Saturday morning cartoons are definitely associated with "girls programming". Especially in the 80s. If it had songs and it was for girls. (Except for animated MOVIES like Disney flicks. Go figure, right?)
I suggest you track down the book "Sold Separately" from Amazon, it analyzes the differences in how girls' programming and advertisements differed from boys' programming and advertisements.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
(http://www.amazon.com/Sold-Separately-Children-Consumer-Communications/dp/081352198X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374630612&sr=8-1&keywords=sold+separately)
*nods* This is a very good point. And you will notice that Disney in the past couple of decades does heavily lean towards girly/princess and that the characters most often actually sing the songs. On the other hand, Pixar, both before and after being acquired by Disney, leans to the masculine. Songs are fewer and usually the character does not actually sing the song so much as the song is played over the action.
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I thought I read somewhere that more men are color blind because they have a Y chromosome. My dad can't tell the difference between red and green. At traffic lights, he has to go by where the light is, rather than what color it is. So perhaps many men just don't appreciate the wide range of colors that many women do. Also, there seem to be a lot of bows and pink. Stereotypically bows and pink are linked to girls. For instance if you saw a little girl in a store with a pink bow in her hair, no one would think much of it. But if a little boy was wearing a pink bow, there would be people looking at him like he was odd. I don't personally agree with that kind of attitude, but I do see a lot of it sadly. I agree with what was said above about the brushable hair as well.
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Kind of makes me wonder what the G1 Transformers would have sung about, if the writers had followed the "one song per segment" rule like they did with G1 MLP. ;)
"That Megatron, he's just so mean!
But his demise has been foreseen,
And I instead will rule supreme,
Me, Starscreeeeeeam!"
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Kind of makes me wonder what the G1 Transformers would have sung about, if the writers had followed the "one song per segment" rule like they did with G1 MLP. ;)
"That Megatron, he's just so mean!
But his demise has been foreseen,
And I instead will rule supreme,
Me, Starscreeeeeeam!"
:lmao:
I can totally hear this being rocked out to a heavy metal tune!
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I think it's great that you don't really see gender when you look at MLP or other toys--I'd try to stay just the way you are!
Definitely everything that has been said here. I think colors are #1. If you look at the My Pretty Pony, I can see that being a toy that could have been marketed to boys, though it was exclusively marketed to girls. I agree that "boy toys" don't involve grooming, but a gender-neutral toy that could be marketed for boys or girls could I imagine involve some brushable hair. "Brushability" definitely makes toys more in the "girl" camp (sadly--who couldn't love the soothing feeling of brushing hair?) but a pink Cotton Candy w/ plastic molded hair seems "girlier" to me than a brown Cotton Candy w/ brushable hair.
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I find it funny that people find G1 more "girly", especially Rescue from Midnight Castle, which had distinctly non-cuddly dragons and a demon-centaur with Victor Caroli's menacing voice- it seems intended to entertain boys as much as girls, though the product it was promoting was meant primarily for girls. Even the regular show was more "high fantasy", with the ponies exploring unknown places and coming up against monsters, witches, sorcerers and all sorts of other creatures- stuff just as comfortable in a boys' show as it is a girls' one. Personally, I liked it, but I also liked "boy" shows like Transformers and G.I. Joe, and to this day am still disappointed that the planned Transformers/G.I. Joe cameos never happened in the '80s MLP movie (thus tying the ponies into the interconnected universe of Hasbro cartoons), so I'm not a very good judge of what makes something "girly", but I don't find G1 any more so than G4- it's just an '80s show that was tied down by stricter rules.
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what makes ponies girly for me is my displays, its how i display my collection, i display them with girly things. so in a nut shell it can be boyish for others whom want them to be :D its our own perception, each to there own i reckon :)
everything is gender neutral for my 2 kids (boy and girl) at the moment till they decide how they want things ;)
how ever if i had a transformer collection which i would love but can not afford G1 TF right now, it wouldn't be a girly display ;)
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This is an interesting topic for me. When I was very young, although I was female, I didn't like fashion dolls or baby dolls. I liked Hot Wheels, tractors, airplanes, and stuffed animals. This was a source of worry to my grandmother who wanted me to play with "girls' toys" but my parents didn't mind.
I loved My Little Pony the second I saw them. I didn't find anything too overly feminine/girly about toy ponies.
Bonnie Zacherle has mentioned that she originally created My Little Pony to be a toy for children of either gender.
Now, I note that even as a kid I didn't like a lot of the MLP marketing. The "My LIttle Pony Mommy" commercials. I was never interested in being a mommy to my ponies, or in "nurturing" type play. I wanted my ponies to be horses, not avatars of humans. That being said, I did do fashion shows with pony wear, though it was my friends who were more interested in styling the ponies' hair (I liked using my ponies to act out grand adventures, my most common plot being a war against the dragons.) Over time I noticed ponies becoming more fixated on hair play/wedding play/princesses than they were at the beginning, when they lived in a stable and wore saddles and bridles. So the kind of play ponies were advertised for became more feminine over time.
There's also the fact that boy ponies were not introduced until considerably later in the line and never in the numbers as girl ponies. I played ponies with a male friend and I remember how happy he was when I finally got some boy ponies. The weird thing was I played GI Joes with him too, and the Joes had a female character right from the start of the 80s 3 3/4" toyline (Scarlett).
So I would say in modern times ponies are considered girls' toys because: 30 years of marketing to girls, the important role of fashion and hair play in pony sales (Hasbro insisted FiM have a fashion-conscious character, to support their fashion play toys, and Lauren Faust did her best with the concept to make Rarity a designer rather than just a shopaholic), the colour palette of pinks and purples designed to appeal to girls, the fact that the main characters are all female.
I am honestly surprised we as a culture have not grown past this. I collect MLP and Transformers. I have loved MLP and Transformers my whole life. Oddly, my male friends would play MLP with me, but my female friends wouldn't play Transformers with me.
Should I ever have children, I am going to be like my parents, and if my daughter wants Hot Wheels and my son wants Barbie, I'm okay with that.
EDIT: That Transformers song is solid gold. ROFL!!!
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Yeah, I was never into fashion or princesses, either, and since I didn't actually know the names or backstories for many of my childhood ponies I naturally just assumed some were male (and when I learned they were ALL female, was very confused.) Fortunately, I had girl friends who would rather act out contemporary politics with ponies than do fashion shows or the like- I don't know where those girls are now, but I'm sure they grew up to be awesome.
Your observation that MLP toys took on more "girlish" interests is interesting; I'm of the opinion that marketing toward girls in general has become even more narrow and stereotypical over time. Even the decisions in the FiM toyline are vexing: the insistence on princesses instead of queens, the huge emphasis on fashion playsets, even making the early Celestia toys pink because "that's what girls like" (of course it's all they like when everything is pink!)- it makes me glad that during my formative years MLP was just a bunch of funky colored horses. Or maybe I've just gotten more jaded as I've grown. :think:
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I notice that I neglected to comment on your specific question as to why G3 might be seen as more "girly" than other generations.
Again, I think that there are multiple reasons. I have always thought personally even from the beginning of G3 that the G3 cartoons were targeting a younger audience than G1 did. The stories are short. They lack any kind of element that might be deemed too "scary." The dialogue is simple and the voices are portrayed as very young. Add to that that the animation was not the highest quality and what you end up with is something not deemed very "sophisticated." In my opinion, none of this would make something "girly." But when you add to that all of the other stuff that *is* stereotypically "girly." And the fact that the average male brony is college age who is presumably "sophisticated." Well, I suspect that the stereotypical male likes to think of himself as more intelligent than the average female. Therefore, he might be tempted to think of G3 as more "girly" than G4 because it is "less sophisticated." As opposed to how I think of it, as simply aimed at an younger audience.
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yeah i was a tom boy all my childhood life, but loved mlp the moment i first saw them, i didn't like dolly's, loved TF's, played with cars, never noticed anything of all the femininity of the G1's till i got older, minty was my fav and seashell which both have green on them. :)
to add to my comment above
Post Merge: July 23, 2013, 08:39:09 PM
yeah i thought G3's to be more girly whirly then other gens too.
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What Sunset said.
If something is seen as silly or uncool, it's automatically "girly" or "gay". To me it says a lot about how women (and people who are 'like' women) are thought about still in society. Sadly, it's not just men either who buy into this negative labeling.
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TBH, I've had that same reaction before. I played with my brother's toys way more often than my own (MLP and Treasure Trolls were the only "girly" toys I really cared much about), so I didn't really know or care so much about gender marketing.
Then, as an adult, I saw a BK promotion. With their kids' meals, girls got dolls, and boys got robots. I remember turning to my friends and going, "WTF? I thought robots were unisex, not just for boys!"
I'm of the opinion that marketing toward girls in general has become even more narrow and stereotypical over time.
Oh, definitely. The amount of time I spend in toy stores makes this painfully obvious. Dolls and ponies are in bright-pink aisles, and MH is the only brand that really breaks up the mostly-pink color scheme going on. Lego displays don't focus as much on good old-fashioned construction or even unisex playsets (unless you go to the Lego Store itself)--instead, you have to choose between combat-oriented playsets "for boys" or the lesser-quality Lego Friends. Educational toys for anyone over the preschool/primary age group are assumed to be "for boys." Most toys in the "pink" section focus almost entirely on fashion and hair-styling, with a secondary emphasis on cleaning house and baby care. It's so strange to me whenever I see anything else in the "pink" section at all lately, and I know it wasn't this way when I was a child myself.
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Great discussion in here! There's so many things I wanted to say that have already been said lol. I'll try not to repeat everything over again.
Yes, I see a lot of current MLP fans saying G3 are too "girly" when I believe it would be more correct to say the G3 are "too young" for them to be interested in the line. The G3's were actually aimed at a younger group of girls than the G1's and the G4's. Just check the MLP commercials of girls playing with the toys and you will see what age Hasbro was advertising to.
Pastel colors, inclusion of songs, conflict resolution, brushable hair, and the inclusion of almost entirely female cast are all clear indicators of programming aimed at young females (or "girly toys" to use the term many people are using in the thread)
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What Sunset said.
If something is seen as silly or uncool, it's automatically "girly" or "gay". To me it says a lot about how women (and people who are 'like' women) are thought about still in society. Sadly, it's not just men either who buy into this negative labeling.
This.
"Girly" pretty much means the same as "lame" and is hardly ever used as a positive thing. Kinda how people now want to claim that Fim is gender neutral. As if it not possible for girly things to be good.
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I had about 4 seriously lengthy eye watering wall-o-text paragraphs typed up to post but then changed my mind :P
I decided all I really wanted to say was this...What's wrong with something being girly? I think I missed the memo at the start of G4 which seems to have become popular and which pointed out it was lame or not cool for something to be either overtly feminine or to have an overriding girlish sentiment/core to it.
But for every reason typed here [and which Sunset put so eloquently] MLP = girly...and for me there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The only difference in the generations is a different age demographic and therefore the girlyness is presented in different ways.
These toys are not aimed at boys, they are not designed to be gender neutral but neither are they aimed at adults. These factors do not and should not stop us [or any little girl or any little boy] from enjoying them. Its just that I think if we appreciate them for what they are, then we need to appreciate their girlyness right alongside.
*skips out of thread in a cloud of pink glitter*
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I think its cause they are ponies and they are pink and purple colors. But then its so different then action figures and car being boy toys. I am a girl and played with cars and ponies at the same time.
I think that its cool when I see a little boy that is crazy about horses. When I grew up all the boys in my class made fun of me cause I liked ponies and horses. But you know what!!! I have a wonderful hobby as a adult and they do not have one. I have things to show for my hard earned and smart spent money.
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I think some of it is down to the toys themselves (G1 certainly, and all generations overall) being, like dolls, a 'grooming toy'. While ponies are certainly more gender-neutral than human dolls, the 'default' for the ponies was that they were girls (boys being an entirely separate addition and different model), and the focus of the merchandise and play was on styling their hair and dressing them up. (I am speaking of G1 here as that is what I grew up with.) Grooming is, obviously, a huge issue and industry for women given the expectations on appearance. Now, there is certainly attention given to men's appearances but I think in general it is fair to say that more is given to women. As a society, we seem to expect women to spend a lot of time on their appearance - hairdos, makeup, fashion, manicures, etc., while men are 'supposed' to be able to get showered, dressed and ready to go in much less time. Toys for boys in general are focused more on 'doing' than 'looking', if you see what I mean.
Some of this has changed in the newer lines (G4 particularly) probably because of the 'new' demographic and I think because of the trend towards toys and collectibles being marketed towards young adults with disposable income, such as the Funko line.
In terms of the cartoons I have only ever watched FiM, but I would say it is a fairly 'girly' show in that all of the main cast are female, with only a few male ponies getting much airtime, and the themes being around friendship, sharing, family, communication and understanding which are all associated as 'feminine', however silly that is. That said there are some more 'masculine' elements as well in terms of the more action-oriented episode, Rainbow Dash and Applejack being very hands-on and physically strong ponies, and so on.
Sorry, this is really rambling but it is so hot here that I'm pretty sure a lot of my brain has boiled into mush!
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Ok slumber partys definitely gender neutral- boys were just more known for backyard “camping” so the boys I grew up with always had “camp outs” lol-same thing.
Now for ponies, it all just comes down to what is common thought on stuff. Ie- pink is for girls and blue is for boys. Boys want swards and cars, girls want dolls and a “real” pony. Now this common thought is stupid but there. Back in the early 1900’s blue was a girls color, and pink was a boys color (it was a muted red)… somewhere in the last 100 years that flipped. Now girly or not is just opinion, my hubby thinks MLP FIM is funny and enjoys watching it with my girls sometimes this does not make him girly lol. Just like I love transformers but this isn’t just a “boy’y” thing for me (we really need a work for boy stuff that matches girly lol) I know my older daughter has a big problem with BOY stuff, and wont be any part of it. Why? I have no clue, probably what she learned from friends or some other part of her family cuz it wasn’t me lol. My 7 year old- “Transformers are BOYS toys.”- said with a know it all, snarky smirk. Me “Okey dokey.”
I guess to sum up- if you don’t see a problem or a difference it really doesn’t matter.
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I apparently have been thinking too much on this subject.
So I was just contemplating the differences in terminology and gender. FiM is all about friendship. It is even in the title. I just realized that boys programing actually has a lot about friendship but it is never used in those terms. Boy programming always seems to use terms like "team" and "comraderie."
Do you think that this is because boys are seen as needing a "common goal" around which to build friendships, where as girls often see the friendship as the "goal"?
Thoughts?
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I've had Bronies, who just got into ponies thanks to FiM, express a preference for blindbag toys over brushables because they "don't know what to do with the hair." Unsurprisingly as most of them didn't have toys with brushable hair when they were children. Elfpony and I have been considering a con panel or some such on Displaying Toys with Brushable Hair....basically, the complete idiot's guide to restoring and styling toys with hair.
I do know boys who had MLP's and/or She Ras in the 80s, but they often let the hair turn into rats' nests (to be fair, so did I, so most of my childhood ponies have lovely hair once i conditioned and brushed it).
I agree that's a big factor, toys with combable/style-able hair are considered feminine.
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I've had Bronies, who just got into ponies thanks to FiM, express a preference for blindbag toys over brushables because they "don't know what to do with the hair."
I used to be like this. Than I got one with brushable hair and was all "moar brushables!". There's something so enjoyable about just brushing hair and trying to style it. I suck at it, but I'm having fun and that's all that matters.
I decided all I really wanted to say was this...What's wrong with something being girly? I think I missed the memo at the start of G4 which seems to have become popular and which pointed out it was lame or not cool for something to be either overtly feminine or to have an overriding girlish sentiment/core to it.
But for every reason typed here [and which Sunset put so eloquently] MLP = girly...and for me there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Can I agree with all this? 27 year old hetero male here, and I much, much prefer my TV shows to be girly. However, I want a bit more action involved, because there's something so perfect about girls in "Yay frills and lace and other girly things" punching a monster in the face as opposed to serious time, all the time. I think I just like the cuteness helping me escape from how terrifying the world is.
Kind of makes me wonder what the G1 Transformers would have sung about, if the writers had followed the "one song per segment" rule like they did with G1 MLP. ;)
"That Megatron, he's just so mean!
But his demise has been foreseen,
And I instead will rule supreme,
Me, Starscreeeeeeam!"
Hah. The last Batman (arguably the most manly of all many superheroes) show did an entire musical episode (with Neil Patrick Harris!). It was terrific. Some people hated it, but I feel like most of them are the "Batman needs to be serious all the time forever RAWR!" types, and I don't need them:p
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I appreciate everyone's input in this. I hadn't thought about it much, but growing up as the oldest of 7 siblings we all kind of liked things together. We'd all watch all of the cartoons together: ponies, transformers, Scooby-Doo, Gummi Bears, He-Man, Johnny Quest, Voltron, GI Joe, Fat Albert, Dinosaucers, etc... and each one of us kind of leaned toward a certain type (I was horse crazy, one brother liked Transformers and Voltron, one of my brothers liked baby-type dolls, my sister was more into dogs/puppies, etc...) but we all got into eachother's interests in some way or another. We also mashed up our toys when we were playing like Voltron and the ponies battling the combined forces of Cobra and Skeletor. I feel really lucky that no one ever cared what we were playing or how we were playing. We all just were free to develop our own personal styles and tastes.
I guess we also didn't feel like the shows were steering us in any gender stereo-types. Hadn't thought about it but I don't think any of us ever felt 'uncomfortable' watching shows. I am glad that more guys like FiM and I also feel like times have changed a lot and straight guys can say 'Hey, I LOVE Pinkie Pie!!' without getting alienated or labeled. I don't think that would have happened in the 80's (where I'm from ;) ).
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I feel really lucky that no one ever cared what we were playing or how we were playing. We all just were free to develop our own personal styles and tastes.
Awww. What a good story! I think that says a lot about your family, in a good way. :) I wish more kids were allowed to play however they wanted, as long as they're playing safely of course.
I have a horrible experience that haunts me even today. In the G3 days (probably around 2005) I was cruising the toy aisle of Wal-mart looking for new G3's and it was about Halloween time. I suddenly heard a very young voice from the next aisle over, a little boy saying loudly that he wanted to be a Care Bear for Halloween. Then a very angry adult male voice told him that he couldn't be a Care Bear because that's "a cartoon for girls." :( It was so disheartening to hear.
Sad to think a cartoon that is actually pretty gender-neutral (with an about equal mix of male and female characters) is still considered a 'girl cartoon' because it talks about friendship and feelings.
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I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but horses and ponies themselves are usually considered to be more girlish than boyish. There's no big reason this should be, of course. I know a lot of girls who went through the "horsey phase," but why would only girls get those? And why aren't horses considered more manly, considering they were domesticated for farm work and for riding off into war?
If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say it's because every kid wants to be able to ride something, and that (this is a gross generalization) boys would flocks to cars - which one can just hop in and drive as recklessly as one wants :lol: - and girls would chose horses - living creatures that need to be nurtured and taken care of. Again we see the aspect of care and even mothering that was discussed before.
Personally I think girls are naturally more inclined to be nurturing than boys are, but this is not true of every child, and even then it's not a rule or anything, and it's a shame people try to push the idea that boys and girls have to be a certain way.
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Thanks for all the responses everyone, I hope that you were all okay with the thread.
For me, I don't find My Little Pony...any gen...particularly "girly". Feminine, yes, but I don't consider girly and feminine to be the same thing.
To me girly is the stereotypical "pinkboycrazypopulargirlteenager" nonsense that people assume anything aimed at females is....but traditionally feminine things can be liked by anyone, just like traditionally masculine things can be.
Just because pastels, love, friendship and magic have been aimed primarily at girls doesn't make them bad, and to me the term "girly" always seemed bad. Sort of in the way someone would say to a baseball player that he "throws like a girl."
.....This doesn't really make a lot of sense, does it. Haha.
It does make sense actually, that's a very well written way of saying it.
I think that this is a very complex subject and there isn't a simple answer. But if I had to put it down to 3 things, these would be the 3 things I would guess.
1) Brushable hair- stereotypically girls like to do their hair more than boys. I can not think of a single toy in the boy's toy section that has brushable hair. In fact the only toy I can think of seeing in the boys section that does not have molded hair is Jesse from Toy Story. And you'll notice that her hair is "pre-styled" to look just like the character in the movies. I also find it interesting that there was never so much of a call for "show accurate" characters until the fan base had such a large influx of male fans. I can sought of see what you mean on this one, while I myself would have loved to have grown up with the brushable ponies (though I probably wouldn't style them, unless it was part of the "storyline" I was doing.) it's probably the only hairstyle toy I would have probably bought, so while I never thought of it as girly before, I can see what you mean now that you pointed it out.
The only good thing about not growing up with the brushable ponies is that I never ruined one of them. I'm sure I had one toy with brushable hair (not a pony) that I ended up giving a haircut because it went with the "storyline" somehow (just basically making it more realistic, I guess) and I decided I didn't like her like that, and of course couldn't do anything about it (unless I'm imagining this memory?)
2) Colors- Girls/women are allowed a much wider range of color choices than boys/men. Of course, there is the occasional guy who is comfortable in pink or purple. But most men I know will only wear a limited number of colors. You can even see it reflected in FIM itself. Most of the male characters are white/grey/brown/blue with the occasional red or orange thrown in. Even on a female oriented show about brightly colored ponies, the boys are very limited in color.
Now this is something I never thought of at all, even though I always knew about (but don't agree with) the whole "blue for boys, and pink for girls" thing; I never realized that other boys/men prefered more limited colors than girls. I've loved things more colorful myself, so thanks for pointing this out. Also, I am one of those guys who is "comfortable in pink and purple" in fact they're the colors I feel the most comfortable in.
3) Conflict resolution- women are seen as being stronger on the interpersonal front. It seems that any story line that can be resolved by "getting to know yourself" or "talk it out and hug" is deemed feminine. Stereotypically, if two males are in a disagreement, they fight it out, sometimes physically, and then slap each others back to make up. In addition, again stereotypically, guys would rather fight an outside enemy than sit and discuss their feelings. As a result, a storyline with villains would be more stereotypically masculine than a storyline with no discernable villain or something to "fight."
Another thing that makes sense when it's pointed out to me, but I would never have really thought of myself at the end of the day.
These are just my initial thoughts, I'm sure this kind of discussion could go on, and on, and on.....
Thanks for them, I hope that I didn't sound argumentitive when I pointed out that I never really noticed them, and that I still won't at the end of the day; it's the same as how I know that pink is seen as a girly color (though ironically blue was supposed to be the girly one of the two - Google it.) to me it is just a color, so I will never view these as girly things, but I am thankful to your response as it explains why other people do, if that makes sense.
Also the presence of songs. Although some "gender neutral" shows like Phineas & Ferb now have song sequences, songs in Saturday morning cartoons are definitely associated with "girls programming". Especially in the 80s. If it had songs and it was for girls. (Except for animated MOVIES like Disney flicks. Go figure, right?)
I suggest you track down the book "Sold Separately" from Amazon, it analyzes the differences in how girls' programming and advertisements differed from boys' programming and advertisements.
The book was written in the early 90s, so it doesn't have anything super recent in it, but it is interesting and does analyze the plots of two "MLP & Friends" shows.
Another one that never occured to me (see why I posted this thread now?) for the most part I always loved it when a song was used in a show (I've always viewed music to be an important part of my life, hence why I like more songs than most people seem to), though on TV it seems to be how the songs used that determines if I like it or not, as well as how it sounds (I'll stop here, going off topic). I will think about the book, thanks for telling me about it.
And you will notice that Disney in the past couple of decades does heavily lean towards girly/princess and that the characters most often actually sing the songs. On the other hand, Pixar, both before and after being acquired by Disney, leans to the masculine. Songs are fewer and usually the character does not actually sing the song so much as the song is played over the action.
My reply to this is kind of irrelovent (as side from the fact that I'm okay with both versions) but I have three songs planned in my project (real songs, so there's a chance it won't happen sadly - one of them means a lot to me), two of which are played during the action, but one is actually sung by two of the ponies... sorry to mention it, it just reminded me of it.
I think it's great that you don't really see gender when you look at MLP or other toys--I'd try to stay just the way you are!
I will. Thanks. I appreciate your response, a lot.
This is an interesting topic for me. When I was very young, although I was female, I didn't like fashion dolls or baby dolls. I liked Hot Wheels, tractors, airplanes, and stuffed animals. This was a source of worry to my grandmother who wanted me to play with "girls' toys" but my parents didn't mind.
I loved My Little Pony the second I saw them. I didn't find anything too overly feminine/girly about toy ponies.
You seem close to how I am, you just like things based on your opinion, not who they are targetted to (if I read that wrong I appologise)
Bonnie Zacherle has mentioned that she originally created My Little Pony to be a toy for children of either gender.
Oh, so Bonnie did say this after all? I thought she did, but I have been corrected about it before...
I am honestly surprised we as a culture have not grown past this.
As so am I, every single day.
I absolutely love and adore families that don't try to shove gender norms down their kids throats (be they boy or girl).
Should I ever have children, I am going to be like my parents, and if my daughter wants Hot Wheels and my son wants Barbie, I'm okay with that.
To both of these comments, that is the kind of parent I hope to be, I will allow my child to be a fan of and to have toys of whatever he or she likes.
My parents were not like this, hence why I missed out on collecting ponies in my past, and deeply regret it as I have said before, because I feel that I missed out on them, I really wish that I had been more assertive about it, and just got them, or explained to my parents why it shouldn't matter.
That is why if my son/daughter wants anything from something that the media and public view as something targeted towards the opposite gender, I will allow them to do so. He/she may get back into whatever it was in the future, and regret never growing up with the toys like me.
I have a horrible experience that haunts me even today. In the G3 days (probably around 2005) I was cruising the toy aisle of Wal-mart looking for new G3's and it was about Halloween time. I suddenly heard a very young voice from the next aisle over, a little boy saying loudly that he wanted to be a Care Bear for Halloween. Then a very angry adult male voice told him that he couldn't be a Care Bear because that's "a cartoon for girls." :( It was so disheartening to hear.
Awwww, it's a shame that some parents are like that, like I say it shouldn't be forced on children like that.
It was nowhere near as bad as that, but either last year or early this year my cousin's son (what's the correct term?) picked something up at a sale (I think it was princess book) and my mother (not his, mine - it was a family outing) took it off him, and told him "you don't want that it's for girls". It wasn't angry like the man you mentioned, and I don't think he minded (he didn't look like he was really bothered about what he'd picked up), but ultimately I think kids should be allowed to be fans of what they like, and shouldn't be told that something is "too girly/boyish" for them.
This is probably a long reply by now, so I'm going to make one more response and then take a break on this. I will reply to the others when I can (including the G3 responses).
I had about 4 seriously lengthy eye watering wall-o-text paragraphs typed up to post but then changed my mind :P
I decided all I really wanted to say was this...What's wrong with something being girly? I think I missed the memo at the start of G4 which seems to have become popular and which pointed out it was lame or not cool for something to be either overtly feminine or to have an overriding girlish sentiment/core to it.
But for every reason typed here [and which Sunset put so eloquently] MLP = girly...and for me there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. The only difference in the generations is a different age demographic and therefore the girlyness is presented in different ways.
These toys are not aimed at boys, they are not designed to be gender neutral but neither are they aimed at adults. These factors do not and should not stop us [or any little girl or any little boy] from enjoying them. Its just that I think if we appreciate them for what they are, then we need to appreciate their girlyness right alongside.
*skips out of thread in a cloud of pink glitter*
I find nothing wrong with the fact that it's a girl's show. Like I said, this isn't some kind of "macho" thing where I don't want to admit that I like a girl's show. I know I do, and don't mind it or find anything wrong with it, it's just that I was curious as to why others found it "girly" as opposed to just "for girls" because I've never looked at things like that. I do not find anything bad about it being a girl's show. It's hard to explain.
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You're right. I liked, what I liked, and my parents weren't obsessed with trying to make me conform to traditional gender roles. If I wanted ponies, I could get ponies. If I wanted Micro Machines, I could get Micro Machines. If I wanted to watch Jem, I could watch Jem. If I wanted to watch Transformers, I could watch Transformers. That meant that as I got older, I didn't care so much if other kids "approved" of my likes.
I'd rather say that ponies are designed to appeal to girls, rather than that they are for girls, because there are clearly lots of boys/men who like MLP, particularly FIM, and every year there are more girls/women at TFCon, even though Transformers are designed to appeal to boys.
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Personally I think My Little Pony is extreeemely 'girly', and has always seemed so to me. 'When I say 'Girly', I mean what society defines as girly, and marketed to girls.
More recently, they are marketed more diversely, eg: to older collectors who like 'retro' - both male and female, and also ...not sure what to call it ...'scene' with hot topic stuff for the new series.
- Pony toys are very much like dolls because they have brushable hair, and are often sold with combs. A lot of focus is on hair styling and brushing
- CUTE and PRETTY
- Pink, purple, and GLITTER are prevalent
- There are Families, like babies, and brothers and sisters, 'play mummy and baby' (nurturing)
- Sets include 'nurturing' home living environments- kitchens, nurseries, gardens, bedrooms. Also nurturing away from home environments school, ballet school
- The whole thing of 'caring for ones appearance' stuff like dressing, hairdressing and decorating is general is also nurturing
- beautiful sparkly Princesses (personally I love that)
None of the things I listed above are typical features of 'boy orientated toys' (Which is too bad, because a lot of these things are great. Overwhelming when it's an entire aisle and every toy ticks every feature, but great)
If a little boy is playing with a baby doll and feeding bottle, parents might snatch it away because of some kind of stupid homophobia, a worry that the behaviour is too effeminate! Nurturing - BAD? But, boys grow up. It's a common complaint to hear that ***SOME*** men (and women) are not interested in helping to raise their own kids!
(I'm not saying that toys one plays with as a child has any effect on ones actions as an adult, just commenting on something I see as one of the many weird and ironic problems with society)
Personally, I didn't particularly are for the 'caring for baby' type play when I was little, but if a child wants to , why would someone go and tell them that its bad?
Sorry bit of a rant there :/
There are always plush toys that both boys and girls are allowed to fuss over at a young age I guess
When I was a child all my peers were dinosaur obsessed...it was i]everyone[/i] The little girls I know now don't care for dinosaurs, I always find that sad. It's great that like dolls and ponies but surely your bratz dolls could do with one dinosaur friend...:(
People have many examples of seeing parents tell their kids which toys are for who. yesterday, I saw a little girl pick up a small Ben 10 toy (green egg thing, toy inside) the mother said NO...that is for boys! and pointed to the pink Hello Kitty one, and said she could have that instead
'grrr, if they cost the same and you're prepared to buy it, let her pick, you aren't going to be the one playing with it' - is what I said in my head XD
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I've had Bronies, who just got into ponies thanks to FiM, express a preference for blindbag toys over brushables because they "don't know what to do with the hair." Unsurprisingly as most of them didn't have toys with brushable hair when they were children. Elfpony and I have been considering a con panel or some such on Displaying Toys with Brushable Hair....basically, the complete idiot's guide to restoring and styling toys with hair.
It's funny you say this--I used to hate combing my dolls' hair, because they "weren't Barbie" and I loathed everything Barbie. I also slept with one of them regularly. I'll let you imagine how horrible the hair was after 20 years of storage with ZERO combing-out.
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I'd rather say that ponies are designed to appeal to girls rather than that they are for girls
:like: