The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Off Topic => Topic started by: fingerpaints on July 20, 2013, 08:09:33 PM
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I don't think in this day and age we really have much of a need for them any longer.
I wanted to share with you all I was at the video shop last night with my dad, and there was a young boy, probably around eight years old with his mum. He was looking through the new releases and picked out a Barbie movie, I thought to myself "it's going to be on in a minute". Well mum said to the little fella "you really liked the other one of these so we will hire this one for you" really warmed my heart to see a mother not caring what others around her thought of what her son wanted to watch. I really love seeing typical gender walls broken down, especially when it comes to children.
What are your thoughts on this sort of thing? I personally hate it when adults try to force children into typical "girls play with dolls and like pink, boys play with cars and like blue" type crap.
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I hate gender roles. I used to follow them thanks to how I was brought up. When I was a child I saw a mother buying her son a Skipper doll and thought it was so weird. Now that I think back, I feel that she was being an awesome parent.
I think it's more acceptable by society for girls to play with boy toys. My mom bought me lots of boy-pandered toys. Dinosaurs, Hot Wheels, Legos, etc.
But most parents freak if their son wants a girl-pandered toy. It's almost as if it's negative to be feminine. If a guy wants a feminine toy or wants to be feminine, by all means let him. Same for the opposite.
I had to edit this for a very stupid typo I made.
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My son likes ponies but he also likes trucks and construction vehicles and plays with both. He likes to play kitchen and also with dinosaurs. I give him a variety of toys and however he likes to imagine, I care not as long as he's being creative.
I hate when people over think the programming of gender roles with children. They're just kids. I was picking my son up from school one day when I saw another father chastising his son for playing with paper dolls in the classroom. I wanted to say something so badly as the only thing he was accomplishing was making a scene at this poor kid's expense. And of course I'm the one whose son meanwhile is styling the fake hair over at the beauty station and complimenting him on how well he parted her hair. XD
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Its breaking :) A lot of kids mimic what their parents do, so its common to see girls play with blocks or cars, and boys playing with a kitchen set :)
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I think things are changing and that's good. I'm also of the opinion though that nothing has really changed until it no longer matters. When moments like this don't stand out because that's just how it is. So.....I think things are headed the right way but I look forward to the time when it doesn't even matter anymore.
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My tiny step-brother is into lego and toy weapons, but he's also into musicals and has started asking me for ponies. (My dad once said that stepbrother's two greatest loves in life was automatic weaponry and musical theatre)
Anyway, I was at my dad's house eating breakfast with my stepmother, stepsister, and tiny stepbrother and tiny stepbrother asked 'hey, can you give me more ponies?' (he'd gotten me to give him a mainsail dollymix a while ago)
His sister, who is really a lovely girl, said: "Those are GIRL toys"
He was not deterred. I gave him a blind bag the other day, it turned out to be Holly Dash and he was so excited.
But yeah, I'm sick of girl things being seen as 'less worthy'. Entertainment, bands, books, etc, that are really popular with a female demographic are seen as pathetic and mockable and that ain't right.
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At the pool one afternoon, a father and son were splashing about in the shallow end. I overheard this conversation:
Dad: What are you doing? Synchronized swimming?
Son: Synchronized swimming is for GIRLS.
Dad: I'll have you know lots of guys are into synchronized swimming!
...because any gender should be allowed to flail about in the water in whatever style that suits their fancy. Way to go dad! Though if synchronized swimming is 'for girls', it does make me wonder what style of swimming is 'for guys'...? Water-skiing (http://www.lcra.org/portal/page/portal/library/media/public/images/archives/lands_recreation/water_skiing_1950s_LR00005.jpg) maybe? :P
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I broke the gender issues back in the 80s. Nothing but tonka trucks and ninja turtles for me. I didn't care what anyone thought and neither did my mom!
I will be happy to one day see a break in the toy isles where there is no long the girls isle and boys isle.
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I will be happy to one day see a break in the toy isles where there is no long the girls isle and boys isle.
There's actually a store in europe that has stuff classified by type, not gender. There was a thread on the forum and... actually, some people were kind of annoyed by it. I thought it was brill, tho'. Sounded like I'd find a lot more neat stuff.
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I too hate gender roles and it cheers me up to see them 'broken'. I was lucky and my parents never bothered with it, I played with lego, dinosaurs, ninja turtles, ponies etc. They even gave a pony as a gift to their friends' son. :)
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I was raised, well my Mom didn't care what I played with. So long as I played. My Dad was very old school gender rigid. I'm of the mind set, that it doesn't matter. Let the kids play with what they want, what they enjoy. Parents need to not over stress on the whole, "only for boys, only for girls".
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I don't believe in raising children with the gender roles that we're so specific when I was a child.
If my husband and I had a baby, I can tell you right now, if it's a girl there will be NO pink lol.
I think children whether they are male or female benefit from playing with all toys, not just gender specific toys.
It's hard to believe that there are still people out there that are bothered by boys playing with dolls and ponies, or girls playing with action figures and cars.
Although I think society in general has always made it harder for boys to be accepted when they play with toys that are more geared towards girls.
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I can see what you are saying to a large extent. As far as children and forcing gender stereotypes I agree.
Just to play devils advocate though, I don't think the world is ready to eliminate gender bias. It would be a little naive of me to say gender doesn't matter. I want both of my children to learn self defense, but I suspect I'll always be more worried about my daughter's safety than my son's. I know it's not right. But even if she was very strong , it's unlikely she would match a man in physical strength. And so I think it's important to educate her on safety and defense. Now of course there is always someone stronger than you so I'd want the same for my boy. But because of the society we live in I feel women are seen as easier targets for violence than men.
Perhaps though it's just less reported by men I don't know. Just my opinion.
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My only issue with this whole "fighting against gender stereotypes" stuff, is that sometimes it really comes across that some individuals have a problem if girls actually like 'feminine' things or that boys like 'masculine' things, as if that automatically makes them narrow-minded or sheltered.
Growing up my dad tried many times to get me to play soccer. I hated it. In junior high and high school I tried basketball and badminton. In the end I quit them both because I just...don't like them. I'm a girl. I do NOT like sports, it doesn't matter how supportive my parents were. They're just not something I like to do and I don't think that makes me a slave to gender stereotypes or whatever. I'm shocked because I recently enrolled in a tae kwon do class and I truly love it, the only sport I have EVER taken that I enjoy and I don't see myself suddenly turning around and wanting to go play flag football.
Likewise, we have a lot of little kids in my family (cousins, nieces, nephews, etc.) so we have a whole room filled with toys aimed for both boys and girls and we don't care who plays with what. Am I going to get mad when my niece wants to play with dolls? Or when my male cousin wants to play with trains? Am I going to take the toys away because they're falling into a gender trap? No, I'm going to let them play with whatever the hell they want. Sometimes my niece will get bored and want to play soccer with my dad. Sometimes she doesn't. It's really up to her and I don't see anything wrong with letting her stay inside and paint her nails and play dress up if that's what she wants to do.
Yes, it's great to allow kids the freedom to play with what they want, but that goes both ways and if a little girl truly enjoys playing fairy princess or a little boy wants to be a ninja master then go ahead and let them. Maybe little fairy princess doesn't WANT to be a ninja master too or your ninja master doesn't want to give up his swords in place of a tiara, and if they don't then that's just fine too.
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Sarahlacewing - I did read somewhere recently that young men are more stastically likely to be the victim of violent attack like muggings that women. I dont have a reference for that though. I have a boy and a girl and Im going to send them both to martial arts.
I have worked really hard to avoid gender stereotypes with my son and I think its worked - at nearly 8 he plays with MLP, Puppy in my Pocket , plays dolls with me and his sister. We have a pony and he is mad on riding despite it being a heavily girl dominated sport, but also plays with Dr Who stuff and lego.
My daughter I am struggling more with though - she is mad on dolls and pushchairs and handbags, hair bands etc, she wants to copy me in everything I do (including putting make up, which I wont let her do) and shes only 2. I find myself sitting down trying to convince her to play with construction toys like Duplo as I want her to be an engineer when she grows up!
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I think letting kids like what they like is key. It seems that's mostly a mix of traditionally boy/girl stuff. My son loves reading books, animal toys, and wants to grow up to be a ballerina. (So we put him in classes three years ago. He remains the only boy in his dance school.) he likes to play football in the front yard--mostly to giggle and tackle his dad. He loves art and ponies and board games. He cooks a lot of pretend plastic cuisine.
My daughter has a big monster truck (the Flintstones' peddling variety). She conquers every playground she sees and there is no physical challenge she can't conquer. She's fearless and outgoing.
They're just different from each other and from the cardboard kids that advertisers pretend exist. They like toys and could care less what side of the store they came from.
I played with ponies and G.I. Joes and She-ra and He-man. Legos and XO and comic books and nail polish. A mix. :)
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believe it or not- i recently talked to a mother whos little son will leave his third kindergarten by the age of 3 soon because they allowed him to wear a pink princess dress out of the dressing-up-box..
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Oh minamarie thats very sad, the poor little boy :( Even before we had our daughter, our son had "princess" dressing up clothes in his box and would wear them interchangably with his friends. I found he became aware of gender stereotypes when he started school age 5, before that he was happy to play with anything.
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I think letting kids like what they like is key.
^i really have to agree here. I try not to force them into anything and I try to keep myself from pushing them in a direction just because it's what I want for them (although I really hope they will try some self defense and swimming classes) As long as they are happy and safe i don't really care what they do. Of course there are exceptions that bare no mark in gender - trying new foods, learning to read and write, potty training, naps.
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It'll be great when everyone realizes that toys are toys, colors are colors, jobs are jobs, etc.
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I grew up playing with Street Sharks, Ninja Turtles, dinosaurs, Nerf guns, and Super Soakers. I could have cared less about dolls, Barbies, and dress-up and my folks didn't bat an eye! I wish more people thought like this. Toys are toys and, as long as the child is happy, it's fine!
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I know my ma didn't care about gender rolls, just got me toys for both and got me more of what I played with the most... Now the public elementary school and church I went to as a kid, seemed like they were trying to do the gender roll thing, annoyed the hell out of my mother.
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Its one of the ONLY great things about getting older......I like what I like and just dont care if anyone thinks its ok or not :biggrin: I am a big ole country boy that likes good smelling candles and sweet body washes and I love toys.....ALL toys from MLP and Rainbow Brite to He Man and TMNT......I will never allow anyone to tell me what I should or should not like I dont care what sex I am or what I look like....And I 100% think if you find something in this world that makes you happy and you are not hurting yourself or anyone ROCK ON!!!!!!
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I agree that kids should be able to play with/like whatever they'd like, regardless of their gender.
I was at Target once, and a mother and her son come down the stationary isle that I'm standing in. The little boy points to some mechanical pencils in red, pink, and yellow and says he'd like those ones. The mom quickly says, "No, those are girl colors. You should get these ones instead" and grabs some blue, green, and black ones.
I really wanted to say something, but of course I didn't because I didn't want to start anything. But really...who cares if the boy wants some red, yellow, and pink pencils?
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The only thing that bothers me is that a lot of people who are trying to encourage gender neutrality want to discourage girls from having "feminine" values but perhaps the better route is to encourage boys to embrace those same "feminine" values. I think it would benefit everyone.
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I get what you mean Wardah. Because some people assume 'feminine' means soft and gentle and emotional and 'masculine' means aggressive and butch and detached. :rolleyes:
I have never been able to understand the abject terror some parents seem to feel about their kids not complying with gender 'norms'. I wonder if it's to do with a latent homophobia? :huh:
I think the best thing a mother can do for her daughter is lead by example, not use the 'do as I say not as I do' approach. Of course if your daughter sees you wearing makeup every day/ wearing heels/ calling yourself fat, she'll do it too, you are the most important role model she'll ever have.
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Just a few days ago, I was in the pony isle of Toys R Us looking at the blindbags. I overheard a father telling his son, "No, pick a boy's toy." It made me sad to hear that. I didn't see what toy the kid had, but he wasn't even in any of the pink aisles.
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I get what you mean Wardah. Because some people assume 'feminine' means soft and gentle and emotional and 'masculine' means aggressive and butch and detached. :rolleyes:
I don't just mean from an emotional angle either, I think guys should be able to wear pink, sparkly, frilly things and long hair and it to be okay because it is simply beautiful when they do.
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I am glad people agree that it shouldn't be a problem, and I also agree that kids should be allowed to play with what they please. In my work we always set up a range of activities and never gear it towards a particular gender, I've helped numerous boys dress up in princess dresses and fairy wings, and played trucks and dinosaurs with little girls and vice versa.
I do think with boys some parents are worried about them turning out gay because they like pink or playing with dolls. It's not going to "turn" the child gay, that is something that you don't choose for yourself (I mean that in the nicest possible way, I am bi myself so no offence ment to anybody, I really don't care about sexual orientation of anyone).
As a child I played with what I wanted, and hated dolls with a passion. I used my brother as a doll though lol.
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This is a great discussion. I had the proudest moment the other day when my 4yo daughter said to me, "Let's play princesses. Transform and roll out!"
She loves to play princess or fairy and with her Barbies and ponies, but also cars and trucks. "Princess" and "Prince" are relatively interchangeable and they get married in every possible combination. :lol: The biggest challenge I'm finding is that I tend to look at and buy her the toys that *I* want to play with, which are often more "girly".
I'm for letting kids be kids and whoever they want to be. Actually, I'm for that for anybody and everybody. I'm glad that it looks like civilization is starting to figure that out.
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Sarahlacewing - I did read somewhere recently that young men are more stastically likely to be the victim of violent attack like muggings that women. I dont have a reference for that though. I have a boy and a girl and Im going to send them both to martial arts.
I have worked really hard to avoid gender stereotypes with my son and I think its worked - at nearly 8 he plays with MLP, Puppy in my Pocket , plays dolls with me and his sister. We have a pony and he is mad on riding despite it being a heavily girl dominated sport, but also plays with Dr Who stuff and lego.
My daughter I am struggling more with though - she is mad on dolls and pushchairs and handbags, hair bands etc, she wants to copy me in everything I do (including putting make up, which I wont let her do) and shes only 2. I find myself sitting down trying to convince her to play with construction toys like Duplo as I want her to be an engineer when she grows up!
I'm sorry, but this seems to prove the exact point I was trying to make a couple pages back. You've obviously given your daughter the opportunity to play with whatever toy she wants just like your son, and she is choosing to play with the more 'feminine toys'. I totally understand not wanting to give a 2 year old make-up of course, but why is it so terrible if she consistently chooses dress-up clothes and handbags over 'boy toys'? SHE is the one making the choice here. It's great you have such high aspirations for her when she grows up, but would you be disappointed if she wound up wanting to be a hair stylist? Or a florist? That you failed as a mother because she didn't choose something that wasn't 'typically feminine'?
Again, it seems that I'm really getting the vibe that while the new thing is to urge kids to play with toys typically associated with the opposite gender, it's somehow wrong if the child in question is primarily interested in toys geared toward their own gender. And that's really frustrating. Yes, we want to aim to let children know they CAN play with whatever they want and that it makes absolutely no difference on who they are as a person, but if a little girl only wants to play dress up or a little boy only wants to play superhero, why is that a problem? Why do we have to force them to play other things that may not even interest them because it's the thing to do to prove we're 'open-minded'?
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Is true, pink stuff is great. Nothin' less valid about a girl deciding to be a total girly girl. All that's important is she's having fun.
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I was thinking of making this thread a while ago but didn't end up doing it.
I find gender roles rather stupid myself and my sister bought a dora DVD for her son and it had a teach your girl to ride thing inside of it.
I used to be like ___ is for girls eww why do you like this but now I don't have a problem with things like ponies or babies.
My dad is kinda making fun of me for being a brony now which I find really wrong.
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If I can jump back in for a second I think there is so much toy separation now within the manufacturer. My momma was trying to buy some Legos or mega blocks or whatever and since both my sister and I have both gender children she wanted to geta variety pack so they could pick out what they wanted to play with. But everywhere she went it was like pink and girly or blue and manly. There wasn't a variety of blocks. She kept asking people for variety packs and they'd say oh well is it for a boy or a girl? She did finally find some but it was so annoying. And clothing wise too she likes yellows, tans, green, etc but so many baby things are pink or blue. I dunno maybe it was better back when you didn't know what you were having. Lol
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I unfortunately saw the opposite of this at work.the other day, one of the children was having a birthday on the weekend, so his mum brought in bubble wands for everyone in pink, purple, green and blue. The first little fella to go home wanted a pink one to which his mum screwed up her face and said "are you sure? Thats a girls colour" I politely told her at his age the pink bubble wand shouldn't be an issue, she sadly replied "I don't think dad will be too happy". Seriously the kid is like 2 1/2.
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I just wishmore toys were non gender specific, as most were in the 70s and early 80s when I was little.
Of course all that matters to me in the end is that my children are happy in their career choices. But I really feel that gender stereotyping starts so early on and they get it from their peers, from television, from pre-school and school that I have to provide an alternative view point.
I dont deny her the girly stuff. I have an older son so theres a variety of toys. I just think playing along strict gender lines really limits both boys and girls opportunities. I also heard someone in an interview saying that there was a dearth of girls going into science and one of the reasons was that they were not encouraged from an early age to play with construction toys etc.
But the other day she threw her dinner on the floor because i gave it to her on a blue plate, not a pink plate and I think thats ridiculous behavior, even for a 2 year old!!
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Wow they actually push it at pre school in the UK? That is sad :(
Here in Australia there is a big push for "gender neutral" play, and we aren't even supposed to use gender orientated words such as boy, girl, her, him, his or hers unless it's explaining something not directed at a child. In saying that, most of the gender stereotypes are coming from adults. Kids don't care, they may like something more than something else, but it shouldn't be because it's a boys / girls thing.
The biggest problem I have seen is parents, mainly father's with their sons. They seem to think because little johnny likes dressing up like a princess and playing tea parties he's going to be gay (why that's a problem I don't even know) but at a young age, they don't care and are often only starting to recognise there are differences between boys and girls.
I think that adults do need to start educating children that it's ok to play with what we want, and grow up to be who we want to be.
Until society deems it normal, it's never going to be easy.
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My daughter I am struggling more with though - she is mad on dolls and pushchairs and handbags, hair bands etc, she wants to copy me in everything I do (including putting make up, which I wont let her do) and shes only 2. I find myself sitting down trying to convince her to play with construction toys like Duplo as I want her to be an engineer when she grows up!
I don't understand; what's the struggle? Maybe she wants to be a girly-girl. What if she doesn't want to be an engineer? She might want to be a ballerina. :P
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One of my favorite albums as a kid was "Free to be You and Me" by Marlo Thomas and friends. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_to_Be..._You_and_Me
It's a collection of songs and stories that all have to do with self esteem and gender roles. One of my favorite songs is Alan Alda singing "William wants a doll" about a boy who wants a doll but everyone teases him and tries to buy him boy appropriate toys. Then Grandma comes to visit and buys him the doll anyway and tells Williams father that William wants a doll so when he has a baby someday he'll know how to care for it!
It also has my favorite princess story ever called "Atalanta," about a princess whose Dad decides it's time for her to get married and sets up a race where the winner will get to marry Atalanta. Only, she doesn't know that she wants to get married and asks if she can also run in the race. If she wins, she'll decide for herself what she wants to do.
Check it out!
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The people I've seen having problems with it are dads, when their sons want something "girly." I don't care who likes what. It's your beeswax, not mine.
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Anyone ever see this? It made me giggle. :lol:
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This was like me growing up. I was fortunate enough to have played with whatever kind of toys I liked. I had many Barbie dolls, but I also had tons of legos and remote control cars. Apparently I also had a dinosaur phase and would only play with dino toys and wear dinosaur-themed clothing. Kids will be kids, why not let them play with what they want? My coworker was visiting in-laws once with her family and she forgot to pack pajamas for her daughter, so she went to the store to pick up a cheap pair she could wear. Her daughter (she was 3 or 4 at the time) picked out a pair of boys' dinosaur PJs, so my coworker bought them. Her in-laws threw a fit about their granddaughter wearing boy pajamas! Seriously, a toddler picked out a pair of PJs that she wanted to wear. What can possibly be wrong with that?
Working at a kids' clothing store, I am unfortunately exposed to this kind of stuff all the time. I have no problem with a boy picking out a tractor shirt or a girl picking out a ballerina shirt, but I also wouldn't have a problem with it being the other way around. Kids shouldn't be made to feel ashamed because of what toys or clothing they like.
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I don't understand; what's the struggle? Maybe she wants to be a girly-girl. What if she doesn't want to be an engineer? She might want to be a ballerina. :P
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She might indeed ;) She certainly loves her "baby Ballet" lessons. I just want to make sure I expose her to all the other alternatives as well and give her all the opportunities that girls and women have in this country now :)
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I was in the store yesterday, in the toy isle, looking for ponies of course. There was a little girl looking at the 'boys' toys. She picked out a pack of race cars, and the mother took it off her, telling her, "You can't have those, they are for boys." and it made me so mad! Poor little girl wanted to play with toy cars, and her mother wouldn't let her.
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My sister was the girl who had to have everything pink, and I was always the one who wanted bug collecting kits. However, she's loved Legos for years, and I had quite the Barbie collection! My parents were never really concerned about "boy things" or "girl things," although since we were girls I guess it wasn't a big deal. I think boys get more flak for wanting girly things than the other way around. As comfortable as we were with what we liked, though, it felt like the most awful thing in the world to request to get the boy's toy at McDonald's instead of what I was "supposed" to get.
I'm waiting for the day when it truly doesn't matter. Liking things will not make you turn out a certain way, no matter what some people believe. And the division between the pink aisles and the rest of the store will never not look ridiculous.
Now if only people my age would stop assuming things about girls who have short hair... :rolleyes:
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My daughter I am struggling more with though - she is mad on dolls and pushchairs and handbags, hair bands etc, she wants to copy me in everything I do (including putting make up, which I wont let her do) and shes only 2. I find myself sitting down trying to convince her to play with construction toys like Duplo as I want her to be an engineer when she grows up!
When I read this I feel a little sad. That is probably just the way I am taking it. Your daughter is clearly showing you what she loves and her preference. :) Our role as educators/parents/caregivers is not to request a child to play with boy toys when they are a girl, or request a boy to play with girl toys when they are a boy. Its to provide an environment that exposes them to boy/girl and not be condescending when that child picks what they want to play with on their own. JMO :) The exposure is just having the toys available for her. To choose her field of work or career for her is much the same thing. She is a person with individual thought and choices. She may be talented in a totally different area.
This whole gender thing needs balance. It works best when its a behind the scenes like exposure with no interference on the part of an adult. If the environment is set up right and the child is allowed to choose then we are on the right track. Removing choices just places a child back in a pre-determined role by the parent and or society.
I didn't want to attack anyone, just wanted to share my passion on this topic in three areas and that is environment, toys and career talents. My husband wanted to be a chef and was a disappointment to his family as a result. They are doctors. That was not fair, my husband wasn't born to be a MD. My BFF wanted to be in acting and theater. That wasn't okay either because she came from Lawyers. It was so hard on her growing up knowing they wanted her to be something she had no interest in. We talked about that often. :cry: My other friend's father was determined to make his daughter a lawyer and she became one only to live a life of emptiness and unhappiness. She went back to school to become a teacher and now she is a happy person doing what she loves. Why was it not okay for her to choose? I will never understand that. Not suggesting that is what you are doing by the way. :)
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Let the kids play with what they want - that's how we all learn. I've got no problems, in general, with it.
That said, if one of my children was struggling with their gender identity - their sense of masculinity or femininity - then yes, I might attempt to steer them toward toys that will help them develop their gender identity, because culture and society does still put certain gender associations with certain toys.
(Incidentally, when the heck did Legos get so "gendered"??? I always remember them as just giant tubs of blocks - I guess I'm too old to have had any of the themed playsets. But I was looking at some in a store the other day, and they all seemed either "super-macho" or "super-frilly-girly" sets. When did that happen?? I thought Lego was originally specifically designed to be gender-neutral?? Or am I misremembering that book on toy history that I read......)
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I'm female, I played with dinosaurs, liked the color blue, had "violent episodes" with my toys when I was little :lol: and I wanna be the breadwinner of my family (If I end up having one)... I know no gender roles :cool:
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My daughter I am struggling more with though - she is mad on dolls and pushchairs and handbags, hair bands etc, she wants to copy me in everything I do (including putting make up, which I wont let her do) and shes only 2. I find myself sitting down trying to convince her to play with construction toys like Duplo as I want her to be an engineer when she grows up!
I can understand not making her wear make up but you shouldn't force her to become something later on in life.
Most girls who act like this in their young childhood end up growing out of it or tonning it down a bit in a couple of years. They just likely see people on TV/irl who act like this and think they need to act like it as well.