The MLP Arena
TCB => Trader & Shipping Support => Topic started by: Honeycomb on October 31, 2012, 06:52:47 PM
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This is the first time anything like that has happened to me, and on here. Well, first time for everything.
I'm really angry now, very angry.
Gustyfox sold me Brazil Love Melody. She told me she could offer to ship her from US instead of Brazil, which would be cheaper for me, so I agreed to that.
I paid her directly via paypal. She asked if I could send money as gift, but unfortunately, this is no payment option on German paypal.
Yesterday she sent me a pm asking for more money to cover her taxes and paypal fees!
I refused, and told her that I would not have had any problems paying paypal fees in advance if she had told me, but a couple of days later.
This morning now she has refunded my paypal payment, and sent me a pm that she has received higher offers on Love Melody, and because she wanted to make money, refunded me.
I am pissed!!! Very much!!!
The sale was not even an auction type, she had a price, and I PAID!
I mean, I cannot force her to sell the pony to me, I just think that this is very wrong behaviour on part of a seller, and especially in the pony community!
Can I leave her feedback for this on here?
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Since you paid for it and it was a transaction, I don't see why you can't leave bad feedback. That is completely rude of her! Thanks for the heads up. A sale is a sale.. that's just ridiculous that she refunded your money to make more after she already sold it to you. And to go and ask for more money after you already paid... ugh.
Thanks for the heads up on them.
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Did she approach you about paying the fees before you paid? Or did she just ask to have the payment sent as a gift and not mention covering fees if gifting was not possible?
When I ask people to send payments as a gift, but do not discuss paying the fees if they are uncomfortable sending it that way or not able to do so, I also try to give the alternative of paying the fees (and I try to provide an estimate).
If I forget to mention the alternative of paying the fees up front, then I would not feel comfortable going back to my buyer after they have paid and ask them to send more money. Even if it was a substantial amount.
I do agree a sale is a sale once payment is sent, but I also see the other side as well. And as a seller, I try to be upfront and clear as possible about every aspect of the transaction - from flaws to payment methods and fees. If I fail to disclose something like covering fees, then as a seller I think I should eat that and not go back on my buyer because of my mistake.
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No, she didn't mention any fees whatsoever, just asked me to send as a gift. It was not a substantial amount, she was asking for 5 USD, but her explanation why was just ......
And it was she who offered to send the pony for cheaper from the US, I didn't even ask her to do that! I would have paid the higher charges from Brazil as well, because I really wanted that pony.
I do see the side of the seller as well, I know that paypal has enormous fees, so if I don't want to cover those, a) I don't offer paypal, b)I ask the buyer upfront to pay for them c) I calculate it into the asking price for the pony.
That's what she wrote in the last pms I got:
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Hello
I hope my question won't bother you, but would you mind adding extra US$5 to the pony total?
I mean, from what you sent me, after insane Brasilian taxes and paypal regular fees I got only US52, this is even less than the pony itself (that was 55), and I'm already offering a much more affordable shipping option than shipping from Brasil.
I'm sorry to bother, just let me know what would you like to do. Sorry about it.
Have a nice day
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October 31
Hey,
sorry, don't take this the wrong way, I don't want to sound mean or anything. But I really don't want to pay anything more after, because I think that's uncalled for. You gave me two shipping options, and I chose the cheaper one. You could have added paypal fees onto your selling price, or asked to cover those fees directly. With that I don't have problems. But now I won't pay anything anymore. Sorry
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Hello
Ok, if you don't mind I'm going to refund then.
I got offers on her and didn't sold to anyone else because I had priced her US$55. I don't mind giving free shipping. But right now I'm getting less than US$55 for her because of taxes. I was hoping to have money sent as gift so we wouldn't have this issue.
I'm sorry.
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I'm so sorry to hear about this :( Paypal fees can be a pain. I understand her not wanting to make a loss on the pony due to having to pay those fees, but really it should have been mentioned as soon as you said that you could not pay by the gift option, or worked into the price of the pony originally so there were no surprise extra costs later.
Since the transaction did go through, then you can leave some feedback if you want to. Did you reply to the last message she sent you?
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Covering the fees should have been mentioned up front before the payment was made as an alternative to the gift option. Not after the fact as in this case. :(
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No, I didn't reply. I was too angry when I saw the paypal refund.
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She should of said about the fees upfront. When I sell something I always figure in the fees when I sell on ebay. It was not right for her to ask later on. Is she new at selling? I am not sure if negative feedback is right, but maybe a yellow one. Gosh this is a hard one, the main thing is that its all up to you.
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I know as long as your transaction takes place on the arena you can leave feedback on the arena. If it was sold on another forum you couldn't leave feedback here.
I am sorry this happened. I have to agree with what others have said that if this was an expensive pony the discussion of helping with fees should have been agreed upon before you paid. I am glad she refunded you right away though instead of sitting on this for a long time. I am not sure though that this was a very good way to handle a transaction. Once she agreed to take your payment and payment was made you were involved in a sale so yes...if it took place here feedback should be left regarding what happened. It is true that no one has to sell a pony if they don't want to but that kind of thing really isn't good to do and I hope it doesn't happen again.
Post Merge: October 31, 2012, 08:19:34 PM
Honestly though 5USD really isn't very much to change an entire sale over. I know for myself I would gladly have sent that to her to have a pony I wanted. Its not like it was 20.00. Can I ask you why you were not wanting to pay just 5.00? How much would that have cost you where you are? I am curious as maybe the exchange rate makes it higher? Its not a whole lot in USD amount and she did seem to be asking in a nice way. Its true though it should have been factored in before...but to have your pony....would it have been that much?? I am not trying to take any side...I am just wondering. I do understand how you feel that it was more money asked for after the fact and that doesn't seem fair...but if it was a small amount....I would like to see you have your pony that you wanted...I was just hoping maybe she would change her mind? And let you have it. I know you don't want to pay that and shouldn't really have to, but its not much unless it coverts higher. :huh:
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That's her sales post btw.
http://mlparena.com/mlp/index.php/topic,311701.0.html
No mentioning of fees.
Edit:
No, I don't think 5 USD is much, but like I said, I am not willing to pay for paypal fees after the transaction was already made and I wasn't told beforehand.
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Well she isn't new to selling at all. It looks like she has done very well with her selling. Maybe she just forgot to mention it and was hoping you wouldn't mind sending it to her after the fact. Maybe too she was shocked at how much PP took out of her amount and that wasn't okay with her and she had no way of knowing that until she saw it happen...because perhaps everyone else is able to use the gift option. Maybe this is the first time she encountered someone who couldn't use that option. If it was the first time I can see why it might have been a shock to see so much money go to fees that you are not expecting because you have not had a transaction like that before. :huh:
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She has had such transactions before, I looked at her feedback, and another German member bought from her recently. So she knows the fees and the non-available gift option in Germany. :(
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I would definitely leave her feedback! :( That is completely not okay!
We've had quite the discussion on Paypal fees here lately, and the majority of people feel it's part of the cost of accepting Paypal as payment. She should have either asked a higher selling price of the pony or mentioned that fees would be charged BEFORE the transaction was concluded. As the price was agreed upon and money exchanged, it's inappropriate to not complete the sale and send your pony. :( Even worse to say she was taking offers after listing it as a sale item with a set price, and then refund your money!
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NOT okay leave appropriate feedback
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I would definitely leave her feedback! :( That is completely not okay!
We've had quite the discussion on Paypal fees here lately, and the majority of people feel it's part of the cost of accepting Paypal as payment. She should have either asked a higher selling price of the pony or mentioned that fees would be charged BEFORE the transaction was concluded. As the price was agreed upon and money exchanged, it's inappropriate to not complete the sale and send your pony. :( Even worse to say she was taking offers after listing it as a sale item with a set price, and then refund your money!
This,
personally I prefer it if the seller factors the paypal fees into the sale of the pony & I'm none the wiser. I don't feel that its right for a seller to ask the buyer to pay these, but thats imo. Thankfully I've only ever been asked to pay once as the gift option has also been removed for me too.
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I agree with all written here.... :( Looks like a huge communication error on the sellers part. It's very poor form to ask for additional funds after an amount is agreed upon and paid for....
Even if I *really* wanted an item, I have to agree with you here.... most likely I wouldn't send even a small amount after the fact to cover fees if I was pm'ed for even more money right after paying. It's the principle of it.... Better as a seller to eat an error as a learning experience and be more clear with their selling terms and careful about calculating out costs working those into their prices/terms in the future.
One thing she didn't do though was say she's selling to a higher offer, at least based on the info you provided.
I got offers on her and didn't sold to anyone else because I had priced her US$55. I don't mind giving free shipping.
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I'm sorry to hear you both have issues with each other.
I had very good transactions with GustyFox before and there was never a problem.
She bought from me, I bought from her and we traded.
And it's always a pleasure to take business with her.
In Germany we can't use the gift option - but when a seller ask me for it I mostly willing to cover a few $$ when it is a higher priced item...
Sure - anybody who use paypal knows about the feez - but when I see it from GustyFox' point it was also nice from her to offer a cheaper and faster shipping option from the US instead of Brasil... so I guess it hadn't be a big problem to cover a part of her paypalfeez..
Believe me - to ship from the US is very nice - when she sent from Brasil it can take forever and you have 100% to do with customs control from Brasil..
I understand that you're disappointed - but in my opinion is a negative or neutral feedback a bit hard.
She send the money back to you directly - without any discusion. I know - it's still disappointend - but sometimes it's better to cancel a transaction directly then have a never ending story.
In my opinion people often leave to fast negative or neutal feedbacks. :/
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Asking to send money for goods as a gift to get around Paypal fees or asking for more money to cover the fee is against Paypal's ToS. You can get in trouble if you're caught and get your account shut down. Though factoring in the fee to the total cost of the item is okay, you just can't ask the buyer to pay the fee. Every time I've been asked to send pony payments as a gift I send it as goods with the fee on top.
I'd leave bad feedback.
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I'm with Sterns on this one. I don't think it's appropriate to leave negative feedback. She did refund you promptly and offered to ship your item in a less costly manner. Honestly, she made a simple mistake about PayPal fees, and respectfully asked you for a few more dollars. I don't see where Gusty was in the wrong by doing this?! It was your decision to not send the extra $5.
Ultimately it is the sellers decision to sell their pony. Why should she sell it for a loss? She is well within her right to decline the sale and refund your money. I certainly would be disappointed, but this is not a situation that merits negative feedback. I certainly wouldn't want $5 to haunt me and prevent me from entering any Arena swaps!
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I vote for neutral feedback to be left, not because of the whole Paypal issue. Strictly because of how bad it is business-wise for a person to agree to sell something and then take it back. Agreeing to a sale, to the point where there has been an agreement on shipping and money has been sent, is a binding transaction. Of course a seller has the right to decline a sale or trade when it is first offered, but it's not right to put up a sale, accept an offer, change their mind, then refund the buyer because they're losing money. That's just not cool.
Look at it as if this had been an ebay transaction. If the auction had ended and Honeycomb had sent money, only to have the seller refund it days later and say they didn't want to do the transaction anymore because they were losing money on shipping or Paypal fees, we would all agree that neutral or negative feedback would be appropriate. Especially if the seller flat out admitted they had already gotten a higher offer on the item.
Asking to send money for goods as a gift to get around Paypal fees or asking for more money to cover the fee is against Paypal's ToS. You can get in trouble if you're caught and get your account shut down.
This is true too.
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I didn't foresee taxes on this transaction would be higher than the usual 5%, I'm sorry about it.
MLPArena rules are not eBay rules (at least I didn't found it stated anywhere), I didn't found satated that sales are final or that I'm not allowed to give up a salle, or not allowed to change my mind. That's why I allowed myself to change my mind about this sell.
For instance, I recently had Bowtie on hold for 3 months, buyer changed her mind, nothing can be done, people are allowed to it. I lost other people that were interested back there, but (in my opinion) there is no one to blame here, rules doesn't cover that.
If i did anything against the rules I'll do my best to fix it, including sending you some sort of compensation, what I had in mind anyway.
I understand it's a paypal issue and not your fault. But the situation is, for US$52 I would be paying for shipping and giving a non intentional discount.
Exactly the same way you're not willing to pay more, I'm not willing to put some money into this transaction as well.
Once more, if there are rules for such situation just direct me to the post, I'm going to fix things up as soon as possible if I messed up.
By the way, I requested the payment to be sent as a gift, you sent the payment and then told me you couldn't send as gift.
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Gustyfox, thanks for coming here to post.
I understand that you don't want to make a loss on a pony sale. Nobody wants that. I know most of us have been there before, making less than we anticipated. But you are not new to selling on here, and you should have known that paypal is going to take a large chunk of money out of it. It's not the first time you have sold using paypal. If you don't want to cover these fees, than you should have asked for a higher price on the pony, or wrote it in your sales thread.
Also, as a buyer it is not my responsibility to send money as a gift when I am clearly making a purchase, my main responsibility is to pay on time.
I would have done send the money as a gift because you politely asked me to do it, if we had that choice in Germany, but we haven't, and you know that because of previous transactions you had.
I don't think that this is the correct way to do business, neither on ebay, nor on here. Especially not on here. Ebay rules are not mlparena rules, sure, BUT, common sales practice and behaviour applies here too, even more so, I think.
I'm sorry about all that, but because I am really unhappy about this transaction, I am going to leave feeback to reflect this. :(
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I didn't foresee taxes on this transaction would be higher than the usual 5%, I'm sorry about it.
I get the impression that a larger amount of fees were taken from this transaction than the amount of fees in past transactions.
Is it possible that Paypal recently changed the amount of fees it takes from transactions to Brazil? If that is what happened here, I can understand a seller's point of view to be losing a lot more money than she expected to lose in fees.
It sounds like the details of the sale were not fully worked out before the payment was sent. If the seller requested it to be sent as a gift, the buyer should respond to say that sending as a gift is not an option. Next both buyer & seller should agree on how the fees will be handled. After that the payment should be sent.
I know both of you are long-time members here with lots of buying & selling experience. Rather than let emotions take over, maybe the 2 of you could communicate & come to an agreement. Maybe splitting the fees in half would be fair? This sale could still end positively for both of you. :)
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Well, as I mentioned, I don't know why it happened. I know with a Brazilian account I pay some extra fees that other countries doesn't have to pay. I don't know why your transaction costed more than other transactions I did recently.
I sold to Germany recently, as some of you checked, if things were as planned I wouldn't send the money back and undo the whole thing. Before anything else I want to sell the pony. And indeed "undoing" the whole business is not good for me as well.
About the gift option:
Just living in one country doesn't means necessarily your account is registered and based there. I sold to people living in Argentina that had US accounts. I had an US based account for a while. I'm dealing with an american that is living in UK. Just because you gave me a German shipping address doesn't mean your account is surely based in Germany. That's why I asked if you could send as gift, if I was sure you couldn't I wouldn't had asked at all.
Sure, it's not your responsibility sending as gift, even if your account had the option you could also decline doing, it's entirely your option and I understand. If you had declined and let me know before doing the payment we could have talked about it before the payment. May be even worked on other ways of payment if it were the case.
In the same way sellers here usually send packs as gifts (at least it's how I get most of mines even if I don't request it directly sometimes), we do it because we know we can avoid our fellows some trouble, it's nice, it's not mandatory.
Of course that is not the perfect ending for me as well, as I want to sell the pony. I'll be flying soon and holding things back is not good for me right now. I just can't afford the extra expense at this time, otherwise I would just send the pony. Even free shipping would be ok but more than that is kinda too much for me to afford at this time, specially considering it is a pony that I can get what I had in mind for (even after fees).
Fell free to leave the feedback you find fair. It's also your right to state how you feel/felt about the transaction, or lack of transaction. I don't see it as personal and understand.
As I mentioned before I'm going to send you something that, I hope, may do it for the harassment. I'm doing it because, despite everything else, I understand you went through a frustrating process that is somewhat my fault.
I contacted paypal and I'm checking Brazilian fees (I don't want this kind of surprise again also). If you have any suggestion on how to conclude the transaction in a way that would satisfy both I'm more than willing to work something out.
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I'd leave negative feedback. To my way of thinking - it wasn't necessarily bad service to ask someone to pay via "gift," or cover fees, but to then say, "well now I'm going with someone else who will pay me more" is very, very bad form. There isn't even an option given; if GustyFox had said, "Okay, either you can pay me the fees I need, or I will sell to someone else who is wiling to pay the fees," then that would have been okay, to my mind. You're giving someone the option, and letting them know that you're not willing to sell it for that price. (And I definitely understand not wanting to lose money on a sale!) But to just turn around and immediately resell an already-sold pony feels ... shady, to me. It would be an insta-neg on eBay.
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I still have the pony, still marked as on hold until a final decision.
I had a few people interested in her, even some offers, I never said I'm going to take more than what I originally wanted for her. That's not my intention, I just don't want to get less.
If we don't find a way to go through it then, yes, I'm going to offer the pony to other people who PMed me about her, in the order they PMed.
Sorry but just because I mentioned I got offers doesn't mean I accepted them or that the pony is already sold to anyone else.
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Since you paid for it and it was a transaction, I don't see why you can't leave bad feedback. That is completely rude of her! Thanks for the heads up. A sale is a sale.. that's just ridiculous that she refunded your money to make more after she already sold it to you. And to go and ask for more money after you already paid... ugh.
Thanks for the heads up on them.
Agree with karrie.
Ouch.. i'm very sorry to hear this :( I've had this (with another seller though!) so i know how much it can hurt. You had an agreement and *poof* it's gone. No fair.... sorry again, it just saddens me :hug:
The paypal fee thing should, in my opinion, be mentioned up front. Not after you paid the agreed price. I can understand it is no fun for her seeing her money being eaten up by paypal fees... but still.... it is totally not appropriate to sell to another. A standard price is not an aution. You should have gotten the pony, that's only fair.
lil edit: i dó think gusty is trying very hard to find a solution as i see here. very glad to see a good communication between the two of you here
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I don't want to drag this out longer than it has to be.
It's always good to hear other people's opinions on these things.
Thanks for explaining again, Gustyfox. I believe you that paypal might have changed their fee system, who knows what they are up to.
Feel free to offer the pony for sale again, it doesn't matter.
I'm not angry anymore. I won't leave feedback, but please include more selling details in your next sales post.
I don't need any compensation, because I didn't suffer any monetary loss, and neither did you.
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I just want to add a thank you for discussing this issue in public.
I find threads like these very helpful because they tend to tell a lot about the people involved, their attitude, their trading ability etc.
In fact, sometimes a thread like this can tell more than a +100 feedback.
We all make mistakes sometimes. I mean to me a good trader is not someone who supposedly never gets into trouble but someone who resolves it well if/when they get into trouble.
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We all make mistakes sometimes. I mean to me a good trader is not someone who supposedly never gets into trouble but someone who resolves it well if/when they get into trouble.
True ^^ :) I'm very glad to see both of you discussing the situation and working it out amicably. I know its an upsetting situation for both of you, so I think that you are handling it well :bigups:
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I appreciate your comprehension. And if you don't mind me using your address I still would like to send something pony related.
I got a reply from paypal and found that my fees are now variable -_- depending on the amount of sales I make per month. I'll try to explain so everyone that is interested will have a chance to check what happened, information may be useful later.
Paypal wrote me:
"Tarifas de 5,4% a 7,4% + 1,0% + R$0,60 por transação (o valor da tarifa pode variar de acordo com o volume total de pagamento recebido com PayPal)"
(Fees from 5,4% to 7,4% + 1% + R$0,60 per transaction (the fee may vary according the amount of payment received)
See that even with 8.4% taxes I should still get 55 and a couple cents, but they also charged me conversion fees and made a conversion (something I didn't requested) because the exchange rate at the time the transaction was made even more money was gone (besides everything else we were unlucky on the exchange rates at the day you made the payment, and I only realized it now that paypal reminded me about exchange currency).
This was an unusual situation, I still don't know why they did it now and my account should keep currency in US dollars all the time.
If, you are still interested and we can find a helper probably sending payment to someone who can then send me as gift will cost only the regular 4-5%. That is a possibility that came to my mind now.
I called paypal this morning and they should not convert my international payments to Brazil Reais anymore (they get money out of conversion like any exchange service does) so may be even sending directly to me may work.
Let me know what you think.
Anyway, I would like you to accept my sincere apologies and the small items I would like to send, I believe you may have use for a nice surprise after this trouble ^^ if you don't mind me using the address you gave me.
I may had done the refund hastily, I'm sorry if looked bad, I just didn't wanted to hold your money while unsure of what was going to happen next.
To everyone else, I appreciate you joining us. These opinions are always helpful in order to lead the path a situation like this may take.
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Yes, this is what I was going to get on and suggest. I was just thinking this morning that having a middleman might help some and might work. I am not sure though because it looks like she can not send gift money to anyone, but the USA fee taken out will not be as much as your fee so it certainly would help some to have someone working in the middle to help this transaction. I am sure if you asked someone would come forward willing to help. Gustyfox that is so nice of you to send a little gift. I can see you are trying to make a difficult situation a little better. That is so nice of you.
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I'm sorry I got so angry; reading this paypal mess I feel really bad now. Just gotta love them ...
Thank you for clarifying everything again for me and the others.
Hope you understand that at the moment I don't really feel like buying this pony anymore. But good luck with your sales!
Sorry for bringing this out here, but I'm pretty sure your reputation wasn't spoiled, because you really seem like a nice person to deal with.
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I'm glad this situation is resolved, I think this is a great example of the way people work with each other here on the Arena.
I would definitely do business with either party in the future if I see a trade or sale from them. I don't think anyone's reputation is damaged from a thread like this when it all gets worked out in the end. :)
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I'm glad this situation is resolved, I think this is a great example of the way people work with each other here on the Arena.
I would definitely do business with either party in the future if I see a trade or sale from them. I don't think anyone's reputation is damaged from a thread like this when it all gets worked out in the end. :)
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
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I'm glad this situation is resolved, I think this is a great example of the way people work with each other here on the Arena.
I would definitely do business with either party in the future if I see a trade or sale from them. I don't think anyone's reputation is damaged from a thread like this when it all gets worked out in the end. :)
I couldn't have said it any better myself.
I completely agree too :) :bigups: