The MLP Arena
TCB => Trader & Shipping Support => Topic started by: Eskara1862 on October 15, 2012, 11:37:54 AM
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So, PayPal and eBay are at it again! There is a clause in the updated user agreements that you must go through arbitration and can not ban together with other similarly affected (scammed/abused) PayPal/eBay customers in a class action law suit. This basically means that we would each have to go against a gigantic corporation individually rather than banning together and fighting as a group. But, we still have time to preserve our rights and opt out of the specific clause in the new PayPal and eBay user agreements. Even if you have no current quarrel with either company, I highly recommend you opt out of this clause. You never know what will happen in the future.
Here's a link to the Consumerist with more information (http://consumerist.com/2012/10/15/here-is-a-downloadable-template-for-opting-out-of-paypal-arbitration-clause/) and a template you can download and mail in.
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I already opted out. The sneaky little you know what's. :mad:
But if I am thinking correctly they have two rather large lawsuits pending against them at the moment. So it really doesn't surprise me they went to these measures to try and protect themselves.
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I thought Paypal had a "no class action suits" thing a long time ago? But I'm sure they can update their policy as often as they want to catch any newer users, loop-holes that have been found, ect.
I was thinking about something the other day: When PayPal holds funds on "new eBay sellers" until the buyer receives their item, is there not some kind of law stating that there should be interest paid to the person who's money is held by a large financial institution? I'm thinking this falls aling the same lines as an escrow account on a mortgage, as an example. I could be totally wrong on this... but I just can't help but think that Paypal/eBay has something to gain financially by holding on to those funds for an extra week or three. :huh:
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Here are the two lawsuits I was talking about:
http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y11/m11/i11/s01
And I believe one of them is a case about them holding funds. I will have to go back and reread it.
The thing is their not the only one's either Sony, Netflix, and AT&T already added such clauses to their user agreements. The thing that ticked me off though was having to mail the dang thing. They only did that in hopes that most people are to lazy to go buy a stamp and send it snail mail is my thoughts.
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I thought Paypal had a "no class action suits" thing a long time ago? But I'm sure they can update their policy as often as they want to catch any newer users, loop-holes that have been found, ect.
I was thinking about something the other day: When PayPal holds funds on "new eBay sellers" until the buyer receives their item, is there not some kind of law stating that there should be interest paid to the person who's money is held by a large financial institution? I'm thinking this falls aling the same lines as an escrow account on a mortgage, as an example. I could be totally wrong on this... but I just can't help but think that Paypal/eBay has something to gain financially by holding on to those funds for an extra week or three. :huh:
You're absolutely right, Kitkatvantage. The issue here is that PayPal doesn't have a banking charter and therefore isn't a bank. (http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-858264.html) PayPal certainly acts as a bank and I would like to see them forced to abide by the same regulations as banks. Reg CC (http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/regcc/regcc.htm) states that banks can't hold customer funds for more than eleven business days at the maximum. I had funds held for 30 days last year. If PayPal is forced to follow Reg CC, then it will help a LOT of sellers.
Ponylady, you're totally right that they made it difficult on purpose. The policy is designed to be in their favor, so why should they make it easy for us to opt out?
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Hard to read for one who doesn't have English as a first language.
Gonna check paypal.nl to search for a Dutch version of this :)
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Well, the template for the opt out letter is in Word and since I don't have Word, I guess I'm stuck not opting out. I rarely use PayPal anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter too much.
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Does it includes PayPal transactions outside of eBay?
I'm not in US, but want to opt-out of this. Is it even possible?
Post Merge: October 15, 2012, 07:07:39 PM
ShortyBoo, it's also in PDF and the text to just copy-paste and give format to it.
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Why haven't I heard about this before. Did they send out something about it hidden in a PayPal user update?
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Why haven't I heard about this before. Did they send out something about it hidden in a PayPal user update?
I got an email from them on the 10th telling me about the new policy.
I found the text version (I have no idea how I missed it the first time I looked) and copied it into the program I do have (Works) and filled out the info and had my mom (it's her account, I just set it up and use it, with permission, of course) sign it. She doesn't understand why it's needed, but she said she'll send it out tomorrow.
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Does it includes PayPal transactions outside of eBay?
I'm not in US, but want to opt-out of this. Is it even possible?
Seconded...
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Thanks Eskara for pointing this out. I'm going to tell everyone I can about it and fill it out as well.
Just to be clear, it looks like you have to do all this by snail mail right?
Anyways, between this and that supreme court case that's going on with that Ebay seller it's starting to seem like selling on Ebay is requiring us to constantly think in legal terms.
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I don't really ever plan to join a class action suit (for ANY reason), so this... this won't affect me. I would stop using paypal when I stop agreeing to their terms... That hasn't happened... yet. :) But it's good to know this information, so thank you
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American Express has something somewhat similar to paypal called SERVE.
I think it works the same as paypal. The only place i see it advertised in on Zynga games on facebook.
But since ebay only takes paypal - not sure how much good it does. Although I did get a cute castleville debit card from it
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I don't really ever plan to join a class action suit (for ANY reason), so this... this won't affect me. I would stop using paypal when I stop agreeing to their terms... That hasn't happened... yet. :) But it's good to know this information, so thank you
lol, class action lawsuits are also for when Paypal wrongs a large portion of people.
For instance, you find out they randomly took out $10 out of your account for no reason. You aren't going to very well chase them for that type of money. However, if there are 50,000 other people who this has happened to a lawyer will jump in to defend the lot of you and one day you will get a check in the mail to right the wrong.
I've been a part of a couple class action lawsuits. They are important and quite frankly, I can't believe it's even legal to say you have to opt out. Ridiculous. Furthermore, even if you think you are somehow impossible to wrong, I very much suggest opting out. When a large corporation screws you, you need a recourse. Class action lawsuits are the only recourse for small people like us.
Why do you think Paypal and Ebay are scared of them? It's the only way to keep them in check.
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l am aware of what class action lawsuits are. I also don't need to explain why I would not be included in one.. It's a very personal choice, very political, and whatevs. So WHY the need for "lol"?? Why.
Other people are welcome to join them of course, I just would never choose to participate. Paypal has not wronged me *shrug*.
And let me note, I also do appreciate when others point out the "fine print" of when policies change. Hence why I felt the need to comment, and say thank you to Eskara for the pointing out this thing. I can see why others could be upset about it, and I do think it's awful that you have to opt out of stuff like this. I do think it's wrong when paypal just figures no one will do a thing about it, and just be forced into it (because who likes to fill out paper work to say "no, I do not want apart of this new policy).
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Thanks @Eskara for pointing this out and thanks to everyone else for sharing the additional info. Yet, more to beware of when dealing with Ebay and Paypal.
I have something else I noticed...more in another thread I'm about to start.
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I only JUST today got an email about the policy change from paypal.
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This is weird, I just did more research on this and the link that is provided in the original post says December 1st, however the deadline that I've found online is November 1st.
I'm thinking they are making the cut off date sooner hoping some won't notice and won't get those letters out before the deadline. Just to be safe, try to do it sooner rather than later.
Anyone whose ever been a part of these knows it's important to retain your right to do this. Honestly, I never understood how agreements like this were legal. Ebay and Paypal are really trying to do everything they can to not be held accountable for their shady ways.
Just to be clear, from what I've read online:
Paypal Deadline: November 1st 2012
Ebay Deadline: November 9th 2012
Get those letters out! They are hoping that people simply forget and space it out. Remember, the dates seem to be different from different sources so I don't know if these are 100% accurate. Better to be safe than sorry.
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I'm not in US, but want to opt-out of this. Is it even possible?
bumping as there was never an answer
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Here is the original letter that was sent from Paypal.
Notice of Policy Updates
Dear xxxxxxxx, PayPal recently posted a new Policy Update which includes changes to the PayPal User Agreement. The update to the User Agreement is effective November 1, 2012 and contains several changes, including changes that affect how claims you and PayPal have against each other are resolved. You will, with limited exception, be required to submit claims you have against PayPal to binding and final arbitration, unless you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate (Section 14.3) by December 1, 2012. Unless you opt out: (1) you will only be permitted to pursue claims against PayPal on an individual basis, not as a plaintiff or class member in any class or representative action or proceeding and (2) you will only be permitted to seek relief (including monetary, injunctive, and declaratory relief) on an individual basis.
You can view this Policy Update by logging in to your PayPal account. To log in to your account, go to https://www.paypal.com and enter your member log in information. Once you are logged in, look at the Notifications section on the top right side of the page for the latest Policy Updates. We encourage you to review the Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that have been made.
If you need help logging in, go to our Help Center by clicking the Help link located in the upper right-hand corner of any PayPal page.
Sincerely,
PayPal
The changes do go into effect November 1st but you have until December 1st. I have bolded where it says that your letter must be postmarked by December 1st.
And this is from Paypal's site:
Opt-Out Procedure.
You can choose to reject this Agreement to Arbitrate ("opt out") by mailing us a written opt-out notice ("Opt-Out Notice"). For new PayPal users, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than 30 Days after the date you accept the User Agreement for the first time. If you are already a current PayPal user and previously accepted the User Agreement prior to the introduction of this Agreement to Arbitrate, the Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than December 1, 2012. You must mail the Opt-Out Notice to PayPal, Inc., Attn: Litigation Department, 2211 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95131.
The Opt-Out Notice must state that you do not agree to this Agreement to Arbitrate and must include your name, address, phone number, and the email address(es) used to log in to the PayPal account(s) to which the opt-out applies. You must sign the Opt-Out Notice for it to be effective. This procedure is the only way you can opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate. If you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate, all other parts of the User Agreement, including all other provisions of Section 14 (Disputes with PayPal), will continue to apply. Opting out of this Agreement to Arbitrate has no effect on any previous, other, or future arbitration agreements that you may have with us.
So the original dates posted to opt out our correct. The November 1st you are seeing RPB is when the changes to their policy are going to take effect. :)
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Welp, if only I had a functional printer! Time to get my butt moving to somewhere that does then
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Thanks for pointing that out ponylady. Happy to hear we have more time.
It just annoys me that Paypal and Ebay like to pretend that they are totally separate entities. Yet, when anything like this goes down they practically do it at the same time.
Cobalte - Hum, this might be an American thing only. Maybe, in other more reasonable countries it's not legal to even need to opt out of anything. So maybe your safe?
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Is there any reason a person would not want to opt out? Is there any penalty for opting out?
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No downside to opting out that I can find!
Post Merge: October 29, 2012, 06:54:28 PM
So I just received the following email from PayPal. Looks like the're being somewhat upfront about their skeezy tactics!
PayPal eMail (http://view.ed4.net/v/WHTV69P/CRTIY/67OCHVM/EMGT4E/MAILACTION=1&FORMAT=H)
If you can't view the link, here's a copy/paste of what it says:
PayPal recently posted a new Policy Update which includes changes to the PayPal User Agreement. The update to the User Agreement is effective November 1, 2012 and contains several changes, including changes that affect how claims you and PayPal have against each other are resolved. You will, with limited exception, be required to submit claims you have against PayPal to binding and final arbitration, unless you opt out of the Agreement to Arbitrate (Section 14.3) by December 1, 2012. Unless you opt out: (1) you will only be permitted to pursue claims against PayPal on an individual basis, not as a plaintiff or class member in any class or representative action or proceeding and (2) you will only be permitted to seek relief (including monetary, injunctive, and declaratory relief) on an individual basis.
You can view this Policy Update by logging in to your PayPal account. To log in to your account, go to https://www.paypal.com and enter your member log in information. Once you are logged in, look at the Notifications section on the top right side of the page for the latest Policy Updates. We encourage you to review the Policy Update to familiarize yourself with all of the changes that have been made.
If you need help logging in, go to our Help Center by clicking the Help link located in the upper right-hand corner of any PayPal page.
Sincerely,
PayPal
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Well, I just checked my emails and haven't gotten any notification from PayPal about this, so I can only assume that it doesn't apply to me :S
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If you are an eBay user, especially as a seller, remember, time is running out to mail in your notification to opt out of the recent change to the user agreement that causes you to waive your right to participate in any class action lawsuits against eBay. If you do not opt out, any grievances you have will have to be settled through arbitration, which typically only benefits the corporation.
Opt out notices must be sent by mail to eBay, and must be postmarked no later than 9-NOV. It is important that as many sellers as possible opt out of this ridiculous requirement. It is highly likely that the idiots running eBay are forseeing some big class action against them within the coming months (perhaps after the corrupt Obama administration, which I think is hostile to their interests is replaced by the equally corrupt upcoming Romney administration that may be more favorable to them). I am personally guessing that there will be a suit concerning them taking a 9% fee on the shipping that our buyers pay. So if you are using calculated shipping instead of the so called "free" shipping that they encourage, you stand to get back a healthy chunk of change if this happens. Anyway, here is a sample opt out letter that you can print out and use, if you are interested in keeping your rights. Be sure to send it Certified at the very least, possibly with Return Receipt as well for good measure.
TO: : eBay Inc., c/o National Registered Agents, Inc., 2778 W. Shady Bend Lane, Lehi, UT 84043
I do not agree to the eBay Agreement to Arbitrate, which is part of the eBay User Agreement and hereby opt out of the eBay arbitration program. My refusal to participate in the Ebay arbitration program will continue under any subsequent eBay user agreements.
Name:
eBay User ID(s):
Email Address(es):
Street Address:
City, State, Zipcode:
Date:
Signature:
If the eBay user is not an individual: I certify that I am the authorized representative of the entity associated with the User ID(s) described above
Signature of Authorized Representative:
Mail to: eBay Inc., c/o National Registered Agents, Inc., 2778 W. Shady Bend Lane, Lehi, UT 84043
This Opt-Out Notice must be postmarked no later than November 9, 2012 or, for new users, no later than 30 days after the date of accepting the User Agreement for the first time
If you have multiple eBay accounts, be sure to include all of them and their associated email addresses.
[Moving to TS - kaoskat]
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Thanks for the reminder. :hug:
I am going to merge it though with the already existing thread on this subject.
PL
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November 9? Sheesh, my letter won't make it there on time!
Post Merge: November 02, 2012, 07:11:36 AM
Edit: can any pony send one on my behalf? :(
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November 9? Sheesh, my letter won't make it there on time!
Post Merge: November 02, 2012, 07:11:36 AM
Edit: can any pony send one on my behalf? :(
Don't worry, if you put it on the post before December 1st it'll be OK.
They are caring about the date it was posted, not when it arrives at the offices.
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November 9? Sheesh, my letter won't make it there on time!
Post Merge: November 02, 2012, 07:11:36 AM
Edit: can any pony send one on my behalf? :(
Don't worry, if you put it on the post before December 1st it'll be OK.
They are caring about the date it was posted, not when it arrives at the offices.
oohhhhh, I get it. I'm dumb, thanks for clearing that up for me haha xD, I was just running around panicing and looking for an envelope xD! Can I hand write it? my printer is bust.
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I don't think it matters if it reads clearly =) I also need to send mine, but will be until Monday =S
I know I can't write due to my... small size letter... (believe it or not, sometimes I wrote in less than 2 mm height... *sigh*. I'm always told to gave a magnifier when I write ¬¬X).
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I don't think it matters if it reads clearly =) I also need to send mine, but will be until Monday =S
I know I can't write due to my... small size letter... (believe it or not, sometimes I wrote in less than 2 mm height... *sigh*. I'm always told to gave a magnifier when I write ¬¬X).
LOL! Min is large and sometimes neat, sometimes messy. Maybe I should get someone to print it for me xD
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So we have to send one to ebay too! Ack. And I thought I was done!
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It is the eBay one that has to be postmarked by 9-NOV. So as long as it is in the system before then, all should be well.
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Just sent both. Thank you all for the advice and for the ebay template letter (which I used). If not for this thread I would not have sent both.
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There's no way to opt out online I have to send a letter??
I guess I'm a bit confused on the whole thing.
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There's no way to opt out online I have to send a letter??
I guess I'm a bit confused on the whole thing.
Yes, you have to send it via snail mail. It's all a ploy to make it extra hard to opt out and discourage people from doing so. It's a pain in the butt, but double check your letters for typos and get those letters out.
Mine are done and I'm getting them in the mail tomorrow. Best to do both Ebay and Paypal at the same time.
I really think this is just the beginning. I bet you that in a year or so Ebay and Paypal won't even let you opt out. Just wait. We can hope that by then the supreme court will catch up and make this whole thing illegal anyways. It's getting scarier and scarier what corporations are allowed to do nowadays. But no one complains due to convenience and ignorance.
At the very least, opting out of this ridiculous agreement is at least a way to make it known that you don't agree with it and won't stand for it.
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I think I forgot something.
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Well my daughter and I have been selling some of my dolls on eBay & I think paypal has changed this like just this week, but previously if you wanted to print a fed-ex label, you had to print it on eBay because paypal didn't have the option for fed-ex, so we are printing a fed-ex label on eBay and it says they will bill my daughter's "monthly statement" for the label, well we were checking her bank account for something else & saw that eBay had charged her bank account for the label instead. It gets worse, eBay doesn't have my daughter's bank account info, paypal had to give the info to them, so much for paypal not sharing people's payment info, I smelled a lawsuit the minute I found out about it.