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An article I found rather interesting...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jul/20/harrods-toy-kingdom-boy-girl-divide
"Gender-neutral? Harrods' new Toy Kingdom tries to end boy-girl divide - London department store organises new multi-sensory toy zone by theme rather than sex."
So I wonder where/how they stock the ponies? :D
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Gender neutral? Why the heck have they done that!?
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I think that's fantastic! Thanks for sharing the link LBS. I wish more stores would do that instead of herding children to pre-determined girl or boy aisles. When I was a kid I always felt I was doing something wrong if I wanted to look at the action figures because that was "boy territory" :huh: Kids should be free to look at whatever toys interest them without any strict gender-coding making them feel bad about it!
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It sounds like a neat idea. I know when I was a kid, I played with both boys and girls toys because I was kind of a tomboy, but also because I had two brothers and was the only girl. So while I had My Little Ponies and Barbies, I also had G.I. Joes and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. They would never admit it now, but my brothers also played with my Barbies as kids, mostly to have wives or girlfriends for the G.I. Joe figures.
If they get rid of gender sections in toy stores, maybe next they can work on getting rid of the massive amount of pink. I mean, there's nothing wrong with pink. It's my favorite color, actually. But pretty much every girl toy is either completely pink, or has some pink on it somewhere. When I was a kid, I didn't like pink, I liked blue so it made me go for boys toys more than girls. And it's sad to see how much more pink there is now than there was in the 80s. Just look at the MLP line. Almost every single pony either is pink, or has pink somewhere on them, be it their hair, cutie mark or eyes. It's crazy. And yet, the pink ones are usually the last ones to sell. Everytime I go to the pony aisle, even when the others are wiped out, I can always find lots of Pinkie Pie, Twinkleshine, Cupcake, Lulu Luck, Cherry Pie, etc. Then there's all the pink Celestias that never seem to sell. I wish they'd get a hint. Not every girl loves pink, and even if they do, they don't want everything to be pink.
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I love it! I wonder if they have a space-theme aisle, that would be amazing. ^_^ Too bad there isn't one here in the states.
I would feel so much better bringing my (future) children to a store that focuses on gender-neutral toy aisles. As a girl, I hated anything pink mainly because I was headstrong and pink merely symbolized that females had certain roles in society (and also I was told frequently by older kids, mainly boys, that "no" I couldn't play adventures or dinosaurs or cops n robbers because I was a girl and was supposed to play with barbies).
I support kids being able to choose what they like, not being told. Because that is early permission to do what they want to do in life, become anything they want to be no matter what gender they are.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
Coming from a girl who hated dolls and pink sparkly things, I certainly noticed as a child. :|
(I've got plenty of stories from my parents to back me up too! lol)
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I think my parents somehow mostly shielded me from gender-segregated toy advertising. I loved MLP, and other "girl" stuff, but I also loved toy trucks and had both a toy kitchen and toy workbench, among other things. I never really saw this as unusual or thought of myself as a tomboy either. However, I also know if I were more aware of toys marketed as for girls or boys, I would have felt intimidated by it because I was always a little afraid of doing/liking the "wrong" thing. I think some kids are more sensitive to that.
I think this is a good thing, assuming Harrods continues this. I realize toy-aisle segregation is claimed to be grouped by what boys and girls are seen to usually prefer, but it also ends up reinforcing those differences as though they are what boys and girls are supposed to prefer. Like how I got lots of baby dolls and Barbies from family members because of course girls like that! (I didn't). And sure, it might seem harmless, except that it's not when things like blocks and building toys and such get partitioned as "for boys" because playing with certain types of toys, like blocks, actually can help kids develop skills like math and spacial reasoning. Besides that it seems wrong to suggest that kids who like something outside their expected interests like something "odd" or are unusual in some way.
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I personally don't see any problem with the way toy stores display their toys now with the "pink" and "blue" aisles. There's no rule stating boys can't look for a toy down the pink aisle and vice versa, and I feel that if a child is uncomfortable doing so, its a matter of the way their parents have educated them about their gender role, not a result of the way the store is displaying their products. I like the way the toys are grouped because it makes everything easier to find, and it just all around looks cleaner with things grouped by their coloring. Dolls in once section, dress-up sets, action figures, electronics, sports items, etc. It just so happens those toys happen to be designed in a certain color, which is part of their appeal in the first place (as much as I love normal colored ponies, if they were ALL shades of brown, tan and black I don't imagine they'd have the same charm to as large an audience as they do now).
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Inky I agree. It's the parents ( as I said in my last post) who teach the kids about the girl toys/boy toys thing. After all, how does a two year old know that star wars is a 'boy' toy? They don't. ( I collect star wars btw and I'm a girl lol ).
The same way, how does a 3 year old know that pink dollies are for girls? They don't. It's the adults that buy into the gender thing, not the kids.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
It's not that kids care about gender equality/neutrality etc, but they do generally get ushered into the set roles of each gender very early, and these roles severely limit what we feel is ok to do in life, what we play with and who we are. If something like this will help bring down those concrete walls in between the gender roles, I'm all for it.
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I used to play with "boy toys" as well as "girl toys" because most of my neighborhood playmates were boys, and I think I was one of only four or five girls out of my entire pre-school class.
My most frequent playmate, my younger brother, had this thing where he NEVER wanted to be the bad guy and he NEVER wanted to be girl characters. So if we were playing Star Wars, I had Leia and Darth Vader; Transformers, I was the Decepticons; He-Man, I was Tee-La and Skeletor.
Looking back it doesn't make much sense because the "bad guys" were always so much cooler. Just means I get to tease him about being a goody-goody :)
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I love that they've taken steps towards gender neutrality. Granted, until toy companies get in on some of this, I doubt we'll see major strides in ending the "pink-washing" of girls' toys, (among other things), but at least the stores are doing their best to break down a few of these walls.
And while not all kids notice, plenty of them do. I remember my sister, when we were young, grew very upset that nearly all toys marketed towards girls were pink. She loved the toys, but hated the colours. Eventually she was turned off towards "girl" toys entirely (because she was tired of being told that, "oh, it's pink, it MUST be a girl toy", or "oh, it's blue, that is a BOY toy") and stopped buying them altogether in favor of gender-neutral toys such as stuffed animals like cats and horses.
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Let's not forget that peers are influencing factors as well, not just parents.
I know my brother and I used to watch the same shows, Power Rangers, My Little Pony, Care Bears, until we started school and all of a sudden he didn't want to watch shows with me anymore because kids would make fun of him.
There's no rule stating boys can't look for a toy down the pink aisle and vice versa, and I feel that if a child is uncomfortable doing so, its a matter of the way their parents have educated them about their gender role, not a result of the way the store is displaying their products.
I agree, it's not all just about the stores. It's also about society, what parents teach kids, how kids treat other kids, etc. But I think stores can help lessen the pressure by simply painting over the pink and blue with white. (The Target I go to has tags sticking out in the aisles to show people where the monster high/pokemon/ponies are, etc which I think works even better than pink and blue aisles.) ^^
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Hmmm interesting.
I think in a way having a 'gender neutral' toyshop makes sense orgnisation wise as I'd much prefer to go into a shop and have it set out like:
Sports, Animals, Vehicles, Collectables, Soft Toys, 'Make Believe' etc.
Growing up I was very 'girly' until I was about 10 after that I started to become a fair bit more 'tomboyish'. And I didn't 'grow out of it' as it were in fact I think I've become more so as I've gotten older, or maybe a bit 'neutral' as I'm not that into a lot of what are supposedly typically 'feminine' things like makeup, fashion etc.but I did have an influence of 'boys' toys as I had two older brothers so I tended to play with their handmedown Lego and Brio trains as well as my Barbies, Dolls etc.
My local toyshop I think is quite obviously segregated to some extent.
As whilst the toddler toys and 'science' toys are generally lumped together one side of the shop has all the 'girly' toys like dolls, ponies, fur real, whilst the other side has the more 'boy' like toys like the Lego, Playmobile, Action figures etc.
I wonder if after a while they'll stop the 'girls toys=pink' I've noticed whilst boys stuff seems to get a fair bit of colour variety a lot of stuff aimed at girls seems to be mostly in shades of pink and purple.
I think peer influence does affect quite early on, in my early years of school I had quite short hair (pageboy cut I think) and I remember getting picked on by a girl because apparently short hair meant I was a boy. I ended up refusing pretty much to have my hair cut for years. Yet now I have rather short hair again.
I also remember when in the school library which we got to go to each week and pick out a book I used to get weird looks, there was this section of Asterix comics and I went through a stage of reading quite a few of them and it was weird because 'comics are for boys'.
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I never really liked the idea of toys being deemed "gender specific" anyway. I had ponies, barbies and toy trucks when I was little. :P
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If they get rid of gender sections in toy stores, maybe next they can work on getting rid of the massive amount of pink. I mean, there's nothing wrong with pink. It's my favorite color, actually. But pretty much every girl toy is either completely pink, or has some pink on it somewhere. When I was a kid, I didn't like pink, I liked blue so it made me go for boys toys more than girls. And it's sad to see how much more pink there is now than there was in the 80s. Just look at the MLP line. Almost every single pony either is pink, or has pink somewhere on them, be it their hair, cutie mark or eyes. It's crazy. And yet, the pink ones are usually the last ones to sell. Everytime I go to the pony aisle, even when the others are wiped out, I can always find lots of Pinkie Pie, Twinkleshine, Cupcake, Lulu Luck, Cherry Pie, etc. Then there's all the pink Celestias that never seem to sell. I wish they'd get a hint. Not every girl loves pink, and even if they do, they don't want everything to be pink.
I second this. I'm not opposed to pink, but it's not my favorite color (that would be purple, but that's not the point), and the fact that girl toys are so completely saturated with pink is just...ugh. Any color can be too overbearing if it's used too much.
I haven't recently gone down the toy isles or into toy stores, mainly because I don't have any discretionary income to spend on such things (including ponies) right now, but I agree that if the 'girl' isle has too much pink, it can be headache-inducing.
As a kid, I was into both "girl" toys, and some "boy" type toys. I had ponies of course (and other horse-related toys...that's the majority of what my toys were...I was definitely equine crazy. XP), plushies (of which I still have most of them...I may have too many plushies XD; ) but I also had a few cars and things. I had a model-backhoe, (I have no idea why, but...) plastic dinosaurs, a whole lot of plastic animal models (which I used to make zoos with my blocks for). I also used to build and shoot model rockets with my dad.
I had dolls, but wasn't really very interested in them. I eventually gave my barbies to my mom, and now SHE collects them. XD
But yeah...I was kinda all across the board as far as toys went. I still have a lot of them...currently most of them are at my parents' place (except my ponies...they stay with ME. XP ) because I don't have room for them right now.
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Excellent. I'm always pleased to see companies and stores that are geared towards kids take a more gender-neutral approach.
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The "color coding" of toys is just embarrassing. I mean, it's gotten to the point where you see a kid's camera in blue and a kid's camera in pink next to it, because heaven forbid boys and girls buy the SAME CAMERA. (Gasp!)
Kids absolutely pick up what they are "supposed" to like from society, their parents don't have to sit down and say, "Now remember, sweetie, pink is for girls." I was watching a Friends rerun a while ago and one of the guys was a divorced dad who was upset because his son (who lived with his mother) had a Barbie as his favorite toy. The whoooole episode was about him trying to get the Barbie away from the kid, and I was like, "Really??"
I mean, on some level I guess it was mocking people who are so caught up in gender roles, but at the same time I felt it was reinforcing it too, like the tone of the show was "Well, of COURSE a dad wouldn't want his son playing with a DOLL."
On a semi-related note, isn't it weird that baby dolls are still marketed solely towards girls, even though these days we (society) generally expect men to take an interest / help out with their infant children? "Yes, little boys, grow up to play with your babies. But don't have a baby doll. That's a girl's toy!" Weird.
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I think the main bonus here is the chance to expose kids to more toys that are different. Variety is always good. :)
I played with Barbies and Disney toys at home, but when I went to see my uncle he played Matchbox cars with me and he had some totally rad Matchbox sets. I never owned any myself, but I didn't need to. If he hadn't had them, I never would have been exposed to them because I was usually where all the pink was.
I think exposure to different kinds of play is the best darn thing you can offer a child. Let their young minds be met with many different things.
On a semi-related note, isn't it weird that baby dolls are still marketed solely towards girls, even though these days we (society) generally expect men to take an interest / help out with their infant children? "Yes, little boys, grow up to play with your babies. But don't have a baby doll. That's a girl's toy!" Weird.
I picked up on this when reading the article since I have a younger cousin whose favorite toy was a baby doll. He was three and no one in the family thought it was weird or had to be stopped. All he got was laughs and smiles, which made him feel like it was okay to love the baby doll and he was the happiest little boy alive in that moment of love and acceptance.
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Gender neutral? Why the heck have they done that!?
Maybe to help out guys who don't want to walk down "the pink aisle of doom"? XD
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Well on this, I feel is really not going to work to go to all this trouble. We can help kids with these issues in classrooms and at home. We don't need to completely re arrange a toy store so its even more confusing to shop in than it already is. Sorry, my opinion is that I know for a fact no child of mine is going to be damaged going into a store like it is. My mother bought Gi Joe, boy board games, dart shooting guns and hot wheels toys for me when I was a kid. I had plenty of boy toys with my girl toys. I was never confused or felt gender issues pushed on me and I really believe it was because of how I was raised. I am still all girl too. I still love all things pink even with that exposure.
When I was at the store though, I didn't want to have to search through a sea of everything to find the toys I was interested in. That would have caused me a lot of frustration as a child. Sometimes I think this world just takes everything too far. As if parents can't help kids on their own without help from the toy store.
Even my husband had a baby doll growing up that he loved. I really do feel strongly about this. This problem exists with children because parents do it to their kids. The problem does not exist because we have an all Barbie Isle and an All Hot Wheel Isle.
It all starts when mom is having a girl and she gets everything pink. Kids in schools also put pressures on kids. I would also say that TV and Movies are a huge problem as well. As far as color goes...its a selling factor really. It would take decades to get that to change where they would still make lots of money. It isn't the store set up. JMHO
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We don't need to completely re arrange a toy store so its even more confusing to shop in than it already is.
So long as everything will still be themed I think it can work in other stores. They could for example have one whole section dedicated to My Little Pony with one of those brand display banners above it. ToysRUs already do this, at least in the UK, it's just that all the stereotypically "for girls" brands are put side-by-side. But instead it'll be fair game for ponies to be next to the branded Transformers shelves.
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I've never been to Harrods, as its only in London it seems. What they've done sounds pretty interesting, in that they've gone more for a Disney fantasy land feel (e.g. Enchanted Forest with lighting effects, flowers, birdsong etc.). The effort definitely makes them unique, as they say they want to be more than a toy shop, more of an experience for kids to enjoy than just shop in. So for other stores it might not work that are more strictly business, but the general principle could work as above with being themed by brand but not gender.
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I completely agree with everything you said tulagirl, as I truly believe no matter how a toy store may display their childrens' toys, it won't make a lick of difference if the ideas about gender equality aren't being taught at home first.
Case in point, I used to work at Michaels, which is a craft store. There, things are grouped by what they are-painting supplies, wood crafts, beadwork, scrapbooking, etc. Nothing is really displayed in such a way that is gender exclusive, even though many of the crafts can be geared toward children. One day while I was working the check out line, a young boy (maybe around 4?) was allowed to pick out a candy. He picked a candy necklace. At first his mother told him no and specifically told him it was for girls. When he kept asking she gave in, but not before reminding him that necklaces were for girls and not boys.
I'm pretty sure nowhere do they separate candy between the boys and the girls. Candy is candy and it's all just shoved on a wall. Obviously the display doesn't matter for some individuals with their own ideas about what is or isn't appropriate for girls and boys to play with, so I don't see how creating one confusing mess of toys in the name of 'gender equality' would make much of a difference either.
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One day while I was working the check out line, a young boy (maybe around 4?) was allowed to pick out a candy. He picked a candy necklace. At first his mother told him no and specifically told him it was for girls. When he kept asking she gave in, but not before reminding him that necklaces were for girls and not boys.
Yes and who was the problem in this? The parent. Mom just made a big deal out of nothing and not the store. Sad really. Its just candy. I remember getting those temporary tatoos as a kid from the candy isle in convenience stores. I wanted robots and monsters so I knew just what packs to pick. No one had to help me out and all the candy was on one isle.
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As we've experienced though, not all parents are like that (mine weren't either). So do all stores need to be like that? :) So long as they're still grouped by brand/show/series etc. Or by the type of toy e.g. dolls, plushies. I doubt any store would just chuck everything in 1 big pile (and neither is Harrods). Though I did used to like the plushie mountain some Disney Stores had. :lol: But you can still find Cinderella next to Cars in Disney Stores since they just have a general plushie section on shelves.
Imagine if all stores did start grouping candy flowers, hearts and such together "for girls" in one area and moved the rest elsewhere. :lol:
4 Year Old Girl Questions Toy Marketing Strategies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3mTTIoB_oc
Note how she doesn't say "blue" for boys. I think most "boys toys" sections in stores are actually pretty varied in colour and not predominately blue.
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I hated the color pink when I was little. Absolutely hated it! I had no problem looking in the "boy" toy aisles as a kid, but I loathed venturing into the "girl" aisles because of the copious amounts of pink. I prefered the Barbies and the MLPs, but I always hated how seperate the sections were, especially since the stuff I wanted was covered in pink.
And there are times when companies tell you what's for girls and what's for boys. McDonald's is the best example. Whenever they had two toys, one was for boys, and one was for girls. I remeber my mother being asked at the counter or drive up window if the meals were for boys or girls, and that dictated which toy you got. I sometimes asked for the boy's toy, but it was pretty obviously seperated by gender.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
It's not that kids care about gender equality/neutrality etc, but they do generally get ushered into the set roles of each gender very early, and these roles severely limit what we feel is ok to do in life, what we play with and who we are. If something like this will help bring down those concrete walls in between the gender roles, I'm all for it.
:like: What little.fox said ^.^ And I did indeed notice as a child which things were "for girls" and "for boys" and it wasn't because of how my parents raised me. They raised me to see both genders as equal and they let me have all kinds of toys--I had MLP, Star Wars action figures, Lego, plushies, toy swords, dolls, whatever.
But when I was in a toy store with strongly coded girl and boy aisles I felt I was being a bad person for liking the stuff in the boy aisle even though my parents said it was totally okay. Because the pink/blue divide is bigger than a family--it's society-wide and some kids, like me (who is admittedly overly sensitive), do indeed pick up on the gendered expectations (whether expressed outright or more subtly/subconsciously) coming from school, friends, teachers, store employees, catalogues, TV ads, etc etc etc... and in-store marketing.
:) So yeah, I'm all for non-gendered ways of organizing toys. If we continue to make gender a dividing issue on such an everyday level as a toy store, how will our society ever learn to ease off the gender-coding in all the other areas of life?
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Go, Harrods! I think that's awesome! I've read plenty of stories from guys who grew up playing with "girl toys" and like the color pink, and I always thought they were cool for standing up to the gender norms. Same for the women who played with G.I. Joes and stuff.
To be honest, I'm kind of wondering if the "you're a girl, so you like pink" thing became so engraved in my mind at one point that I thought it was true. I went through a spell where I liked everything pink, and I even had my bedroom walls painted pink. Then, after I got into middle school or so, I hated pink and wanted to avoid it as much as possible. When I look back, sometimes I ask myself, "Did I really like pink or was that the gender stereotype talking?"
I don't mind the color too much now. But going down the girl toy aisles does kind of bug me...
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And there are times when companies tell you what's for girls and what's for boys. McDonald's is the best example. Whenever they had two toys, one was for boys, and one was for girls. I remeber my mother being asked at the counter or drive up window if the meals were for boys or girls, and that dictated which toy you got. I sometimes asked for the boy's toy, but it was pretty obviously seperated by gender.
McDonald's toys are a great example of this. Or, you could watch the commercials on TV. Most "cooking sets" (like ice cream makers, Easy Bake, etc) the commercials will strictly have girls in them -- craft kits are like this, too (I don't think I've ever seen a boy in an ad for stick-on gem kits, despite my younger male cousins' fascination with them). Regardless of whether parents are involved in dictating "this is a boy/girl toy", there are still societal messages being sent to our kids.
I like the idea of grouping toys by theme (ie, "fantasy" and "animals", etc). The toys would still be organized in a way that would make them easy to find, without labeling them "girl" or "boy" toys.
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Sad to say this is nothing new, it has been tried before. Many times in fact.
It all comes down really to the parents and how they present it. I too this day see parents say things to there kids that make me cringe. It is then repeated by the kids. I also see them come in and want that pink car seat for there girl irregardless of how safe it is.
Thoth played with trucks and horses, she never liked dolls that much, Polly Pocket yes Barbie to my older sisters dismay not so much.
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I feel lucky that my son has no issues going down the girl isle. If he sees something he likes, he goes for it. He loves watching My Little Pony, Dora the Explorer, but he loves He-Man and dinosaurs and video games.
Not to mention, my My Little Ponies frequently fight Goombas and Bobombs.
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Personally, I don't get the need to do this. I'm not opposed to it, but when I was a kid I had absolutely no problem going into the "boys" section and grabbing a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle! I owned several of them. I also started buying Star Trek action figures when I was about 12 (I still have my tricorder!) So what's the big deal?
Post Merge: August 13, 2012, 09:43:08 PM
Oh, I do agree that there isa bit too much pink in the girl aisles though, I never understood that either. When I was a kid I went for the aqua and the white ponies, a pink Celestia would have bothered me as a kid enough to not want to buy it when it clearly should be white.
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Didn't Toys-R-Us try this a few years back? (I know I read something about it in one of the toy industry magazines.......) I thought it ultimately hurt their sales, because consumers were more confused about where to locate items and they would give up and shop elsewhere?
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There is no way to fix something so every person in the world feels happy, included, better intact self esteem or even safe. I mean we need to do this within ourselves. There is just no way on the planet to serve the masses. What society needs to do in my opinion is start looking inward for their empowerment and self esteem and sense of belonging regardless of differences they see in themselves. We need to teach our kids that it is okay for them to go to a certain isle and get what they want. They have to learn to beat the odds of what makes them different and like themselves for being the orange in the apple cart. Thats what makes an intact, healthy emotional person. I personally feel that building self esteem instead of having it done for you has lasting results that will follow you all through life. I don't expect everyone around me and everything around me to make me feel safe enough to be me. I have to feel safe enough to be me no matter what enviornment I am in. I say empower the child and leave the store out of the picture. Free to be me so to speak...all kids need to learn that.
Its like you are running a hotel and bunch of people come in and say, "change the curtains to blue. Green is ugly." So the hotel changes the curtains to blue. Then a new crowd comes in and says, "change the curtains to red, blue is ugly." I mean this could go on and on and never end. I see both sides...I just don't see a solution that will really work.
We have always had issues with sterotyping and the like. We have always tried to come up with a solution and just about the time we fix one problem we create another one.
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I think it's good that Harrod's is doing this, but on the other hand I also think that gender neutrality is going to be better taught by parents than anyone else. Having been in Harrod's, I think it is a beautiful store, but I wouldn't want the store values to be the only thing influencing a child.
I think a child would get spoiled thinking that level of opulence is normal (I mean, a bakery section and popcorn just for dogs? really??). I used to live in NYC, and I loved going to FAO Schwarz and other department stores, but the lux factor of Harrod's was jaw-dropping all the same. :dropjaw:
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Absolutely, we all should learn to be strong on our own. ^.^ But no one can exist isolated from social influences, and I don't believe we should have to be strong in spite of our own society. Probably I'm idealistic, but I don't think that's an okay way for things to be, or that it's the way it has to be. :)
Social codes and expectations (like gender-roles, gendered toys) still affect even those of us who are aware of them, and they will affect those who aren't aware even more, and I really think that's a problem. We're not separate from our environment, and when that environment channels girls down one aisle and boys down another, that's creating a gendered divide that does have an effect.
Kids (like I was, who yes, was and still is very sensitive and struggles with self esteem) should in my opinion not ever have to be faced with a gendered presentation, like pink aisle/blue aisle, that forces them to make a choice, because they can't grasp that choice, shouldn't have to, and aren't ready for it. It really does make some kids (like me) feel bad, and wrong, and confused despite what our parents have taught us. Why, if mom says I can like anything, is the stuff I like in the "Boys Toys" aisle, when I'm a girl? That is really darn confusing for a kid--it was for me! (And yeah some stores where I live aren't just color-coded but have actual signs that say Girls Toys and Boys Toys!)
Or, putting it another way, what purpose does it serve to split toys by gender? All I can think of, like others have mentioned, is that in reducing "what girls like" to one aisle and "what boys like" to another it makes it apparently easier for people to shop for gifts. And why is that easier for us than to shop by, say, theme? Because our society is dependent on gender-coding... people (and I'm generalizing here, of course there are many of us who go beyond this--but not enough yet!) want a "girl toy" or a "boy toy." They'll look by gender first, not by interest. And I honestly believe this is something we need to change in our society.
Yes, we're all individuals and all different and we should all celebrate it! But we should be empowered to celebrate ourselves as unique human beings not only on a personal level but also an institutional one. If we teach our kids that boys and girls are equal, and they can be whoever they want and play with whatever they want... and then they go to the toy store and actually see that their world is not actually laid out that way after all? I think that isn't right. I guess I really think that for our society to learn not to reduce people to their gender means we need to start rethinking our world from the roots up. Starting, say, in toy stores. ^.^
/stops rambling :)
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My experience as a kid is similar to Zombelina's. My parents raised me to treat boys and girls the same and not to create stereotypical barriers in my head. My sister and I played together with all kinds of toys regardless of whether they were "boys" or "girls".
But parents' influence on their kids is not absolute. So I always felt like I wasn't allowed to spend any time in the pink aisles even if I REALLY wanted that LPS toy or creepy pregnant Pound Puppy or whatever it was that I was after at the time. I can remember disapproving looks from random parents in the store or staff asking me if I was looking for the GI Joe's and didn't I know they were on the blue aisle over there. Stuff like that. And heaven help me if the new toy I took to show off at school was a fluffy kitten toy or one of my sisters dolls instead of a monster truck or something with guns on (though I loved all that "for boys" junk too). Kids quickly learn what is considered "normal" and "okay" and what is not, no matter how progressive the parents are.
So I think the more desegregation like this that we see "out there", the better. The more kids are exposed to the idea that there is no hard barrier between what is for girls and what is for boys, the more it will take root and carry on into their adult lives. Yes, parents are the best place for the idea to start but if the rest of the world doesn't at least sometimes help the idea along, it stops as soon as kids hit school age.
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And there are times when companies tell you what's for girls and what's for boys. McDonald's is the best example. Whenever they had two toys, one was for boys, and one was for girls. I remeber my mother being asked at the counter or drive up window if the meals were for boys or girls, and that dictated which toy you got. I sometimes asked for the boy's toy, but it was pretty obviously seperated by gender.
McDonald's toys are a great example of this. Or, you could watch the commercials on TV. Most "cooking sets" (like ice cream makers, Easy Bake, etc) the commercials will strictly have girls in them -- craft kits are like this, too (I don't think I've ever seen a boy in an ad for stick-on gem kits, despite my younger male cousins' fascination with them). Regardless of whether parents are involved in dictating "this is a boy/girl toy", there are still societal messages being sent to our kids.
I like the idea of grouping toys by theme (ie, "fantasy" and "animals", etc). The toys would still be organized in a way that would make them easy to find, without labeling them "girl" or "boy" toys.
I've noticed that. Only adverts for cooking stuff I've seen boys and girls present was when they did the McDonald's themed McFlurry maker and for a chocolate coin maker and a gummy sweet maker.
Also I've noticed most of the 'crafty' stuff unless it's say Crayola markers always seems to be marketed toward girls that and most 'girls' craft stuff is always billed as fashion related like 'make a cute bag' or 'make cute cards' and if you find any kids 'how to draw' books chances are there's one for 'girls' which will have stuff like princesses, baby animals etc but a 'boys' one will be about dinosaurs, spacemen etc.
It's weird as I'm sure a lot of stuff billed as 'for boys' is actually pretty gender neutral in the grand sheme in things. Like dinosaurs I love dinosaurs and several people I went to college with who are female really liked them too.
There's also the thing that for stuff aimed at girls it seems to be 'look how pretty, look how cute' but with boys its 'look how cool, look how fun' type advertising.
I've noticed it on TV. We have CNToo and that seems to be where they broadcast all the 'action' cartoons like Ben10, Transformers, Generator Rex yet in all the logo related stuff (sorry can't think of a proper name, it's when they do the little gags involving the logo) it's always boys. Yet several of these 'action' cartoons feature females as protaganists like Transformers:Prime and Thundercats.
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Lol when I was a kid I was a real tomboy so I avoided the pink aisle like the plague!
It's a shame, I might have succumbed to ponies sooner lol
It's nice to see a store going gender-neutral. I wonder if children's clothing might ever go the same way, I always thought that boys got the best clothes while girls got all the pink frilly stuff, blegh!
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I think this is a very good idea. My sister has some form of Autism, and she has a weird way of making decisions from it. I take her to the toy shop everytime I go to get ponies usually, and I'll ask her what she wants. She comes across a Ben 10 figure she liked, but wouldn't buy it because she's got it stuck in her head that Ben 10 is for boys and she wasn't allowed it because she was a girl. I tried to explain it didn't matter, but it was a no go. I think if things are set out more gender neutrally it'll be great for kids who have this sort of notion!
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This is always a hot topic but first off I work in marketing and I can tell you pink and blue aisles are not leaving a toy store near you soon - this is a clever press raising stunt by Harrods. The store has never had out and out girls and boys sections anyway - they are as much a tourist attraction as a toy shop after all - I dont know too many regular Londoners who shop for toys in Harrods!
I dont want to sound too annoyed [:P] but I must say a comment along the lines of "get ushered into the set roles of each gender very early, and these roles severely limit what we feel is ok to do in life" is a little odd - just because I am a girl and liked girls toys when I grow up I can only 'do girl things' and not break out of 'feminine roles' when I grow up? In its own way that kind of statement is just as gender bias as girl aisles and boy aisles - its implying that unless we can be "gender-neutral" as children we will never be able to "cross gender barriers" when we grow up.
I can assure you in my house it was very much "boy toys" for my little brother and "girl toys for me" - was that my parents and families choice? Probably yes - however as a little girl I didnt want race cars and he-man toys - I wanted Barbie and MLP and I am not afraid to say that. Even now when I can appreciate other toys and think some boys toys are "cool" I dont want to collect them. If I had a child would I force her down the pink aisle and to pick girl toys - no of course not - she could have whichever toy she preferred but at the same time I would probably be more likely to buy her a toy from the pink aisle than the blue if I was choosing myself. I dont think there is any harm in that - am I reinforcing gender type? Maybe, a little - but is it really awful that we think girls cant be girls and boys cant be boys? Its great for kids to understand differences and understand that nothing is stopping them doing what the other sex can do but at the same time I also don't have a problem with their being a demarcation between genders [sometimes]. Male, female, other its what makes us interesting and different. Children should have a choice but as well as that choice to "play with toys for a different gender" they should also be able to choose only toys for "their gender" without the implication that doing so is enforcing 1950s stereotypes.
Is the pink and blue aisle thing about marketing? Yes, largely its put in place to help guide buyers to obvious purchases - yes there is a lot of pink in girls packaging and a lot of blue in boys packaging. But hey - it works - it wasnt put in place because toy manufacturers got together one day and said "lets set up a gender divide" - that colour divide has been in place since the 1940s [and was originally a clothing colour divide rather than toys]. Why are cartoons of full fat milk in "blue" packets and semi-skimmed milk in "green" and fully skimmed milk in "red" no matter who the manufacturer is? Its to make purchasing simpler - its a marketing tool thats all but its a helpful and successful one.
Little boys and little girls can and do play together, they share toys, share games and should always mix - but personally I dont have a problem if a little girl wishes to be a girly girl or a tom boy or if a little boy wants a pony or feels the need to only play with his box of toy cars. Kids are kids - educate them well but personally I dont like to assume that only allowing a child to play with girls toys is doing to damage them as a person when they grow up.
Oh and seriously someone needs to point me in the direction of where to buy a McFlurry maker - I NEED THIS :)
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I couldn't agree more. Sorry I love my dolls, ponies, make up and sparkly princesses. I don't want to play with super heroes, football and guns. I want my pink aisles. If guy wanna shop in the pink aisle that's not a problem but why does it have to be colour neutral? :/
To clarify, no I wasn't 'brainwashed' as a kid or 'damaged' by having a girls section and boy section, one of my favourite toys as a child was Lego Knights castle. However I craved for pink stuff. That's it.
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I dont want to sound too annoyed [:P] but I must say a comment along the lines of "get ushered into the set roles of each gender very early, and these roles severely limit what we feel is ok to do in life" is a little odd - just because I am a girl and liked girls toys when I grow up I can only 'do girl things' and not break out of 'feminine roles' when I grow up? In its own way that kind of statement is just as gender bias as girl aisles and boy aisles - its implying that unless we can be "gender-neutral" as children we will never be able to "cross gender barriers" when we grow up.
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Little boys and little girls can and do play together, they share toys, share games and should always mix - but personally I dont have a problem if a little girl wishes to be a girly girl or a tom boy or if a little boy wants a pony or feels the need to only play with his box of toy cars. Kids are kids - educate them well but personally I dont like to assume that only allowing a child to play with girls toys is doing to damage them as a person when they grow up.
Oh, I absolutely don't think that there's anything wrong with girls preferring the pink aisle/stereotypically female toys. There isn't, at all. I loved my Star Wars action figures, but I loved my Disney Princesses more, and that's just as okay as if it had been the other way round! ^.^ Girly girls and boyish girls are both wonderful, just as girly boys and boyish boys are both wonderful. Of course there's nothing wrong with girls being girls or boys being boys--but there's also nothing wrong with the reverse either! And our society does not accept that part very well (especially boys not being boys).
The only problem is when society reinforces to the girly girl (boyish boy) that she is the one who is right/good/correct for liking what she does, and reinforces to the boyish girl (girlish boy) that she is wrong. And one of the ways society reinforces these ideas is through environments like gender-divided toy stores. Children certainly don't have to be gender-netural--they don't even know what that means of course! But I think their environment should be, so that they have the freedom to be themselves, however "girlish" or "boyish" that may be.
Basically, this--
So I think the more desegregation like this that we see "out there", the better. The more kids are exposed to the idea that there is no hard barrier between what is for girls and what is for boys, the more it will take root and carry on into their adult lives. Yes, parents are the best place for the idea to start but if the rest of the world doesn't at least sometimes help the idea along, it stops as soon as kids hit school age.
Gender-coded toy aisles aren't stopping girls from being girls or boys from being boys, and nor should they. (And I do not believe having toys organized by themes rather than gender would stop the girly girls or boyish boys from finding what they liked either, and nor should they.) But the gender-divided aisles can and do stop girls who also have "boyish" interests and boys who also have "girlish" interests. Just from my example and ButtonMasher's: a girl worried to go look at action figures after getting a doll and a boy worried to look at LPS after getting a truck, even though parents say it's okay? That really makes me sad. :(
I couldn't agree more. Sorry I love my dolls, ponies, make up and sparkly princesses. I don't want to play with super heroes, football and guns. I want my pink aisles. If guy wanna shop in the pink aisle that's not a problem but why does it have to be colour neutral? :/
To clarify, no I wasn't 'brainwashed' as a kid or 'damaged' by having a girls section and boy section, one of my favourite toys as a child was Lego Knights castle. However I craved for pink stuff. That's it.
And that's totally, absolutely okay and should be celebrated! (My favourite color was pink when I was tiny, and hey, it still is!) But I also want the little boy who loves princesses to feel okay too--and it's a lot harder for him to feel okay about himself when the aisle he's standing in says Girls. That's not sending a "celebrate who you are, boy who loves princesses" message--that's sending a "you're out of place, boy who loves princesses" message. :huh:
edited to fix a bizarre typo *facepalm*
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If stores made toy aisles gender neutral, that doesn't mean if you love girl toys you'd HAVE to like boy toys or if you like boy toys you'd HAVE to like girl toys. That doesn't make sense in the slightest, and that argument completely baffles me. Is it seriously that offensive to some of you to think about venturing into blue aisles and seeing "boy" toys next to "girl" toys? :/
This sure sounds familiar. . .maybe the word "brony" is related? -cough-
Its okay to be a girly girl and love pink, and its okay to be a boyish boy and love superheroes and sports. Its also okay to be a tomboy and love Hot Wheels or a "girly" boy and love dolls. Just because YOU fit gender stereotypes/don't care/never had a problem with them as a kid doesn't mean such huge and obvious divides between "girl" and "boy" toys doesn't damage kids.
And the fact that people do not want (and seem upset/offended?!) by gender neutral toy aisles is astounding to me. And the amount of people saying its up to a child's parents and only their parents to teach gender equality. That's just insane. Children DO NOT live in a bubble. Unless you're not allowing your child out of your home (which, by the way, is BAD) they WILL have contact with other people. Some of those people WILL enforce gender stereotypes and make little girls feel bad for playing with swords in the mud and little boys feel bad for playing dress up tea party with My Little Ponies. It is literally impossible to keep your child away from gender stereotypes, and while some kids may not really be affected by them, others will be. That's already been proven in this very thread. And the attitude of "its the parents' responsibility to make the child understand genders are equal, not society's! STFU!" is absolutely ridiculous. Yes parents should teach equality, but when society doesn't they can't do a damn thing about it but try and change how society views things like gender equality and stereotypes. But apparently that's terrible and bad and awful?
I'm absolutely stunned by some of these posts. I don't care if its just a stunt or the store isn't serious or "it won't change anything" or whatever. Its the fact that people are literally UPSET about a store making gender neutral toy aisles that blows me away.
As a child, I didn't even notice if aisles were different colors (seriously I've tried to remember so many times, but I can't). I HATED pink and dresses because it was what I was supposed to like. My favorite color alternated between blue and green for many years. I played with Barbies because they were bought for me, but I really wanted Hot Wheels (which I wasn't allowed to have). These days I still don't really like pink, I love pretty dresses/skirts and getting dolled up, my favorite color is yellow, and my room is overflowing with MLPs and dolls. But the memory of being denied those Hot Wheels still hurts a bit when I remember it.
As a mother, (&^(#@ gender stereotypes! #*@#)$ gender separation like that! If my son wants to play with Barbies, My Little Ponies, baby dolls, etc when he's old enough to actually have an opinion about that, good for him! If my future daughter loves sports and hates Barbies, good for her! If one of my future kids likes whatever toys are "for" their gender, good for them! I'll buy my kid what they like, and I won't try and force-feed pink aisle toys to a girl or blue aisle toys to a boy. If they don't like those toys, I will not buy them those toys. When I was a kid it made me feel so unloved and unimportant when I was given a toy I hated for Christmas while my cousins all got the same toy I actually wanted. I will never contribute to my children feeling that way, to the best of my ability, because I know what an awful feeling it is.
All "you"s are general and directed at no one in particular.
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I dont think there is any harm in people having different opinions on this so lets not tell them to STFU and that they are being ridiculous for what they say. As I mentioned its a hot subject but one we should be able to discuss without calling each other out.
And as much as I personally disagree with some statements that doesnt make me wrong or the person stating them wrong - its an individual opinion. I dont agree that pink and blue aisles are completely "enforcing" stereotypes - they are a marketing ploy to help aid buying but thats my opinion. And we can see from the amount of people in this thread stating that they had boys toys when younger despite being girls that the blue aisle was not a no-go land to them, which is good.
Personally I am not upset by their being gender focused aisles, I just dont think it matters and I dont understand why having specific aisles prevents boys heading for the pink and girls heading for the blue. Personally I like the separation it makes finding the toys I am interested in that much easier! :P
I think if nothing else this thread seems to conclude that we are all of the opinion kids should pretty much be able to pick and choose whichever toy from whichever aisle that that want :)
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I don't think it will work. Hot Wheels cars still come in blue packages while barbies still come in pink. If they seperate barbies in one aisle for dolls and Hot Wheels in an aisle for cars then there is still a blue aisle and a pink aisle and the boys and girls will still seperate.
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This is a good idea.
As a kid, people in my family who didn't know me "too well" forced me to the girl isles when I absolutely hated that stuff. I hated everything pink, sparkly, doll-related or clothes-related, apart from certain Disney franchises (Mulan, Lion King), and MLP, though I was sort of like "those are ok/cool" that actually wanted them.
I'd much rather have been in the boys isles looking at Pokémon toys and video games and things relating to anime like Dragonball. A gender neutral store will hopefully allow kids to be able to make their own decisions about what they want more, rather than people just forcing them off to the gendered isles.
When I was a kid I was a bit weird on gender. Didn't see myself as ether gender and usually identified as male when I could, not my birth gender, so I'm probably very bias on this ahah;;
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Maybe its just around here locally but I don't think I really see a specific predominately blue section when I walk through toy stores or toy sections where everything for an aisle or 2 is blue. There are some brands of toy like Thomas the Tank Engine that use blue, since the character is blue. Or Toy Story due to the sky blue wallpaper in the film used as a backdrop. But other than that the colours are pretty varied, until you hit the section awash with pink.
Sylvanian Families packaging is coloured blue due to using a sky with clouds as the backdrop similar to Toy Story. Some might consider those "for girls" since its cutesy little animals and families playing house in doll house style environments etc. (Of course that isn't my opinion.)
Looking at that video posted further back the 4 year old didn't say "blue" for the boys they said "different colours". I could be wrong but I think for the most part boys toys don't use the blue cliche as often as girls toys use pink. Like in this pic of a Walmart, the toys seem to cover a spectrum. Black, yellow, red, green etc. It's mainly the walls that have been painted blue.
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But this is predominately pink even without painting the walls to be that way:
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I think it's a nice initiative but i doubt it will accomplish much.
In the end it's the parents who decide what a kid gets. The lay-out of a store is not going to matter much if a parent is already convinced girls should only play with toys aimed at girls (same for boys). When i was a kid my parents didn't mind me getting toys aimed mostly at boys (i had a ton of dinosaurs).
So for parents who let their kids pick what they like the color of an isle is of no importance in the first place.
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This is AWESOME!! I sincerely hope that, one day, all stores are organised this way.
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I don't get why people think parents have absolute control over what influences their kids. Kids are little sponges, absorbing EVERYTHING they see--not just "what mom and dad tell them."
Gender-divided toy aisles absolutely broadcast a message. "Girls can like this, boys can like that. And if you cross the invisible line, you are some kind of weirdo." Some kids, either due to natural personality or family support, can ignore that message, which is great. But what a crappy deal for more sensitive kids.
I mean, look at the whole "brony" thing. What I hear from most of them is "I always thought MLP was about vapid giggling and tea parties"--yeah, because they were trained to ignore and disparage anything girly.
It's especially bad for boys, because of the whole stereotype of "if you like anything girly than you must be gay, which is BAD" idea.
Oh--I think it's also worth pointing out that it's not just kids who are influenced by the gendered layouts of toys. It's also adults--from the parents who just plain won't let a girl play with "boy" toys or vice versa, to the ones who only look for birthday presents in the pink (or blue) aisle because it's been so ingrained in them that "pink is for girls, blue is for boys", to that one stupid relative who tells you that your little girl will grow up to be a lesbian (gasp!) if you buy her a football.
One store layout is not going to change their minds, but it is a step towards change, towards making it "normal" not to shunt one gender away from the other (cooties!), and that is a positive thing.
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I don't have it to hand, but there's a really nice comic somewhere that says something along the lines of:
Girls choosing pink (when given multiple options; the picture had a girl being offered stuff in blue/yellow/etc and chose pink) isn't the problem - it's making that the only choice that is. There's nothing wrong with liking pink, or any color, it's restricting color choices of stuff based on gender that's ridiculous.
Boy stuff is "gender neutral" - it's more okay, societally, for girls to want boy toys. Boy toys come in every color. But if something is marketed to girls, that means it must be girls only, and it's "emasculating" or "unmanly" for a boy to want it. :/ And yeah, honestly, those stereotypes can be pretty damaging for someone of any gender! I don't know where I was going with this. :yikes:
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I like the idea of grouping kids toys by theme, rather than pink and blue. It would make it easier for me to find what I'm interested in by going via the theme.
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I dont think there is any harm in people having different opinions on this so lets not tell them to STFU and that they are being ridiculous for what they say. As I mentioned its a hot subject but one we should be able to discuss without calling each other out.
Yes I agree. I like the strong opinions on both sides. I don't feel any one person's opinion is wrong. Debates are good for all of us. I think it would be awful if everyone agreed on everything. Where would we be with that going on? We all need to be able to see things in our own way. I really think too that how we were raised, what ages we are and our personal values will affect how we respond to things like this. I was born in a decade where equality was a big issue and major changes took place in America because of it. People have always wanted to change things so others can feel a part of something in this world. Its human nature to want to create comfort and equality. I think we all have different ideas though on how equality is created for our children. I feel making changes at home and at school where kids spend the most time will make the biggest difference in their lives. We have a long way to go though. There are too many differences in culture to possibly fix it all in order to help all. Socioeconomic status, age, culture, family background, values, how you are raised and personality all play a part in how we respond to things like this. I do not think any of us will find this world ideal no matter what we try to do. We still have major issues with incorporating children with special needs, dealing with bullies in schools, and removing views on people with mental issues. In our constant efforts to change everything we, at times, have made things worse.
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I don't have it to hand, but there's a really nice comic somewhere that says something along the lines of:
Girls choosing pink (when given multiple options; the picture had a girl being offered stuff in blue/yellow/etc and chose pink) isn't the problem - it's making that the only choice that is. There's nothing wrong with liking pink, or any color, it's restricting color choices of stuff based on gender that's ridiculous.
Boy stuff is "gender neutral" - it's more okay, societally, for girls to want boy toys. Boy toys come in every color. But if something is marketed to girls, that means it must be girls only, and it's "emasculating" or "unmanly" for a boy to want it. :/ And yeah, honestly, those stereotypes can be pretty damaging for someone of any gender! I don't know where I was going with this. :yikes:
I think I know the one you're talking about, its something like
'Do you want the green, the blue or the pink?' and the girl goes pink but the second panel is something like 'do you want the rose, the fuscia or the hot pink?'
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Oh--I think it's also worth pointing out that it's not just kids who are influenced by the gendered layouts of toys. It's also adults--from the parents who just plain won't let a girl play with "boy" toys or vice versa, to the ones who only look for birthday presents in the pink (or blue) aisle because it's been so ingrained in them that "pink is for girls, blue is for boys", to that one stupid relative who tells you that your little girl will grow up to be a lesbian (gasp!) if you buy her a football.
Lol the best part is that the "pink is for girls and blue is for boys" is a relatively recent construction.
In Michael Kimmel’s outstanding Manhood in America: A Cultural History, he points out that clothing wasn’t colour-coded in America until the early twentieth century, before which little boys and girls were dressed pretty much identically. Even when people started pushing for more gender-specific children’s clothing, there was a huge debate over which colour to assign to which gender. It started out with boys wearing pink or red because the colours were seen to indicate strength, while girls wore blue because they were “flighty” like the sky. From a 1918 editorial called “Pink or Blue” cited by Kimmel:
“There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject, but the generally accepted rule is pink for the boy and blue for the girl. The reason is that pink being a more decided and stronger color is more suitable for the boy; while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl.”
Which basically means that all that "GIRLS ARE INHERENTLY PINK AND PINK MAKES BOYS GAY" is just a bunch of jack. This is besides the fact that being gay isn't even a problem. Lol. Society is basically full of arbitrary, made-up random crap. One day society might actually figure out that people are people and don't all adhere to their randomly changing "SET IN STONE UNTIL NEXT CENTURY" gender rules. Lolll but when will that be? Probably never. I find myself flipping the bird @ society on a regular basis. Because it honestly holds up the stupidest, most damaging BS "rules" in the world.
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Lol the best part is that the "pink is for girls and blue is for boys" is a relatively recent construction.
Yeah I forget the page but I found some pictures once of pink dresses for boys from the mid 1800s. Apparently a clear divide came about with World War 2.
In the 1800s most infants were dressed in white, and gender differences weren't highlighted until well after the kids were able to walk. One theory is that distinguishing boys from girls was less important than distinguishing kids from adults. [...]
By midcentury baby clothing in colors other than white had begun to appear, but gender-based distinctions were slow to emerge. In 1855 the New York Times reported on a "baby show" put on by P.T. Barnum, exhibiting "one hundred and odd babies" dressed in pinks, blues, and other colors seemingly without regard to gender. [...] it took decades to develop a consensus on what those colors were. For years one camp claimed pink was the boys' color and blue the girls'. [...]
Interesting full article here: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2831/was-pink-originally-the-color-for-boys-and-blue-for-girls
Here's another with some pics: http://hueconsulting.blogspot.co.uk/2007/03/why-is-blue-for-boys-and-pink-for-girls.html
Apparently some countries use pink for baby boys (e.g. Belguim). Or use it interchangeably between genders.
I don't hate pink or anything (<-- Fluttershy avatar with pink hair :biggrin: ) but I do think it'd be cool if like boys toys there was more colour variation in girls toys. Because I think that boys toys aren't predominately blue these days anyway so why should girls toys be predominately pink? Hasbro keeps stating that they make Pinklestias and White Celestia will be limited because focus groups say "Give us pink" but I wonder if the groups contain the audience who watch the show which markets and advertises the toys?
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I feel bad for saying this but I really don't care.
Organizing by play theme? Isn't that how most toy stores and toy sections already organize they're toys? Dolls are usually all together, trucks and vehicles are usually all together. Blocks and building toys are usually all together. You get the idea, pretty sure everyone has been in the toy isle.
I have no problem with Baby Dolls and Toy Cars being displayed together but they sure are not the same play 'theme'. So it'd be interesting to see how this would work since I've been in places like Toys R Us quite a few times and usually the same kind of toys are together in the same section.
Yea, it's usually by boy and girl but then there is no actual sign up that says No girls allowed or No boys allowed.
SO I really don't know how mixed you can do toys in a store before you are totally disorganizing them in a way where people can't find a darn thing.
If you go in a store like Dollar Tree or Dollar General, sometimes those toy isles are all mixed up and usually the problem is you can't find anything because it's a jumbled up hot mess and you have to weed through everything to find what you are looking for.
If a kid wants a hot wheels car I don't want to have to wade through 500 baby dolls and if I want to buy a princess doll for one of my little cousins I don't want to have to dig through building block sets to get a princess doll.
I get the desire that we want it to be okay for a boy to have a baby doll or pony and okay for a girl to have a car or whatever. I just don't know how well you are going to mix the two before it will make no sense in terms of shopping.
I don't think the whole idea in a store is they want to divide boys and girls as it's more an easier way for people to shop and find what they are looking for, etc.
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I'm just surprised that more male collectors haven't come to this thread and gone, "COOL! That's what we wanted, a toy section where I don't feel awkward picking out a Pinkie Pie!"
Not that there's anything TO feel awkward about, but many of them have expressed these opinions. I thought this would generate some goodwill towards the androgyny of ponies. :)
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Incidentally, gender-specific clothes for kids is a pretty new concept too (in the US, anyway).
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This is young FDR.
I feel like there's increasing resistance to letting kids, even girls but especially boys, be "cute" anymore. Suddenly little girls have to be sexy (urgh) and boys have to be cool all the time.
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I'm just surprised that more male collectors haven't come to this thread and gone, "COOL! That's what we wanted, a toy section where I don't feel awkward picking out a Pinkie Pie!"
Not that there's anything TO feel awkward about, but many of them have expressed these opinions. I thought this would generate some goodwill towards the androgyny of ponies. :)
Doesn't every cowboy need a faithful equine animal friend. Roy had Trigger, Gene Autry had champion, The Lone Ranger had Silver...so why can't nowday males have Pinkie Pie?
Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?
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Oh I was reading once that often when you see these older photos and think they are girls quite often they are boys because they didn't cut their hair always either. Neat photo.
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I get the desire that we want it to be okay for a boy to have a baby doll or pony and okay for a girl to have a car or whatever. I just don't know how well you are going to mix the two before it will make no sense in terms of shopping.
I don't think the whole idea in a store is they want to divide boys and girls as it's more an easier way for people to shop and find what they are looking for, etc.
I understand that it makes it easier, but the problem is why it's easier to shop when it's sorted like that. When we put dolls down a "girl" aisle, grouped with other "girl" items, regardless of the fact that children of both genders will play with these toys, we enforce a stereotype. It's easier to shop for girls and boys when it's sorted like that because people will go down the aisle for the respective gender they are looking for and assume that any toy within that aisle will suit the needs of the child in question, without really taking into consideration the child's actual interests.
I (personally) don't want stores to have toys thrown about willy-nilly; that would be a hassle for everyone, haha. But groupings such as "Television" (where you could have Transformers, My Little Pony, and Poke'mon all together, for example), "Animals", "Play Pretend", etc. would allow children to look at toys based off of their actual interests, not a stereotype of each gender's interests.
It might take a little adjusting, but I don't see how it would be more difficult to locate specific toys with a sorting like this. Hot Wheels, just as an example because it was mentioned, could be in a "Classics" aisle for the largest toy lines like Barbie, Hot Wheels, and other long-time-running toys with large demand.
Of course, with some toys in the borderland between groupings, those might be a little harder to find - but then again, we see problems like this all the time. For example, blind bags - do you keep them with MLP merchandise, or with trading cards? Things like that would still be at the store's discretion, and would probably be a bit of a hassle - but just like other difficult-to-locate toys, there are only so many places it could logically be, and an employee from that area of the store would likely be able to help you.
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...so why can't nowday males have Pinkie Pie?
Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?
I don't think they're literally letting others decide, it's just it's often easier for them to keep it under wraps because of some of the harsh prejudice and bullying which occurs. I feel especially sorry for those still in secondary / high school where the most prejudice occurs. Though it can still happen for adults too. Whilst many have a thick skin as others have stated in this thread for those who are more sensitive (kids or adults) its tougher for them to not let some things sink in and be hurt by it.
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I get the desire that we want it to be okay for a boy to have a baby doll or pony and okay for a girl to have a car or whatever. I just don't know how well you are going to mix the two before it will make no sense in terms of shopping.
I don't think the whole idea in a store is they want to divide boys and girls as it's more an easier way for people to shop and find what they are looking for, etc.
I understand that it makes it easier, but the problem is why it's easier to shop when it's sorted like that. When we put dolls down a "girl" aisle, grouped with other "girl" items, regardless of the fact that children of both genders will play with these toys, we enforce a stereotype.
IT's easier because cars and trucks and trains go together and it's easier to find when they are together. It doesn't mean you can't have pink cars, it just means it doesn't make sense to have dolls with the trucks. Okay maybe it doesn't make sense to me. I know the board game section of the Toys R Us I go to, all the games seem to be mixed together, there isn't really a gender section in the board game isle. It generally seems to be organized by theme and age.
It's easier to shop for girls and boys when it's sorted like that because people will go down the aisle for the respective gender they are looking for and assume that any toy within that aisle will suit the needs of the child in question, without really taking into consideration the child's actual interests.
Then does this mean we should just blame the clueless shoppers? (LOL) You are shopping for a 8 year old girl...not knowing what she likes. Well she must like what every 8 year old girl likes - Pink Glitter because that is all you see on the girl section. Who knew she wanted a G.I. Joe and a Lego Set?
Actually I don't know if the clueless shopper is a good argument since they didn't even take the time to find out what they were supposed to buy anyway.
Nobody said you can't have pink cars - actually if you think about it Barbie and MLP and others have cars but again, they are actually sorted by 'theme' as in it's a MLP car or Barbie Car with the MLP and Barbies.
And Again, I get the whole we want it to be okay for boys to play with pink plastic ponies - but I still think the idea of going in a toy store and having ponies with monster trucks seems a bit of a wonky designed toy store. It sounds like a Dollar Tree toys layout where everything is mixed up with everything else. Nothing really wrong with that but it's not usually very pretty to look at or shop in. Usually it makes me want to leave, because of the disorganization - whereas when I go in Toys R Us, I want to stay and look at everything because everything is organized by the actual toy.
Post Merge: August 14, 2012, 10:16:17 AM
...so why can't nowday males have Pinkie Pie?
Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?
I don't think they're literally letting others decide, it's just it's often easier for them to keep it under wraps because of some of the harsh prejudice and bullying which occurs. I feel especially sorry for those still in secondary / high school where the most prejudice occurs. Though it can still happen for adults too. Whilst many have a thick skin as others have stated in this thread for those who are more sensitive (kids or adults) its tougher for them to not let some things sink in and be hurt by it.
You are really not telling me anything about 'school' that I don't already know. I went to public school in a poor area of my state. I know a lot about what it's like to be bullied and mistreated by male and females and I'll add to that teachers. I had a couple teachers that make Professor Snape look like a kind man.
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This is Harrod's, I doubt it's going to be messy and disorganized! I think it's a clever marketing trick. By mixing the toys by type rather then boy/girl, children shopping for a new toy may very well be exposed to more different toys. Like if you always steer your boy to the boy isle before (not that anyone here does that, but face it it happens), now instead of going directly for the GI Joe he looks around and sees the MLP Pinky Pie train and thinks it's the coolest toy ever. And vice versa for the girls. GI Joe is way cooler than Ken. Also, when adults are shopping they are going to have to slow down and look through the entire theme, I think impulse buys will go up. The more you wander around the toy store, the more cool stuff you find, right?
I hope that made sense, I'm finding it difficult to articulate today.
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IT's easier because cars and trucks and trains go together and it's easier to find when they are together. It doesn't mean you can't have pink cars, it just means it doesn't make sense to have dolls with the trucks. Okay maybe it doesn't make sense to me. I know the board game section of the Toys R Us I go to, all the games seem to be mixed together, there isn't really a gender section in the board game isle. It generally seems to be organized by theme and age.
I think its fair to group things by brand (so the MLP car / train set isn't likely to end up in the generic car / trains section). But if there was less of a separation Transformers brand could sit alongside My Little Pony brand etc. Though its not just toy stores fault of course, I do think there is a over-reliance on pink in girls toys which isn't so present when it comes to blue in boys toys, and if there wasn't that dominance of a single colour putting them side by side probably wouldn't be so clear. If the toys were originally manufactured to have a bigger variety of colours then it wouldn't be such a noticeable streak.
You are really not telling me anything about 'school' that I don't already know. I went to public school in a poor area of my state. I know a lot about what it's like to be bullied and mistreated by male and females and I'll add to that teachers. I had a couple teachers that make Professor Snape look like a kind man.
I didn't say it was anything new. I was bullied too and I'm really sorry to hear you also experienced that. And yeah some teachers are real ogres to the point of becoming legendary. However I didn't say it just happens at school though, just that, as we both might expect, it happens more often. But its true that male adults suffer it outside of school, due to preconceptions, and different people respond to that in different ways. Some carry on regardless proudly, some become more uncomfortable and wish to avoid potential confrontation and protect themselves. So its just one reason why some men let it "dictate" whether they stride forward buying ponies or just order them online on the quiet.
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I didn't say it was anything new. I was bullied too and I'm really sorry to hear you also experienced that. And yeah some teachers are real ogres to the point of becoming legendary. However I didn't say it just happens at school though, just that, as we both might expect, it happens more often. But its true that male adults suffer it outside of school and different people respond to that in different ways. Some carry on regardless proudly, some become more uncomfortable and wish to avoid potential confrontation and protect themselves. So its just one reason why some males let it "dictate" whether they stride forward buying ponies or just order them online on the quiet.
I think we used school since it was kind of what the world is when you are a kid/teenager but it can happen outside of school for girls just as much as boys.
In most cases bullying is not any different for girls that it is for boys or at least not in my experience of seeing it and what happens.
And I don't know about the male online pony buying habits; not my business.
I buy pony stuff online, I bought the white princess Celestia from Toys R Us, doesn't mean I'm nervous of going in the pony section of the store it just means with free shipping I don't have to spend my time and money going to the store to buy something they'll send right to my door.
So I can't say guys buying ponies online is because they are wigged out about shopping in the pink section at Toys R Us, or if it's just easier and less hassle to buy it online. Buying ponies online isn't just a guy thing and each reason for doing it can be different.
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As someone who's against gender roles (and therefore also against gendered toy advertising) I very much approve of this idea. I wish every toy store could be like that!
Now, I hope the parents will also support this concept by teaching their kids that there are no such things as "boy toys" and "girl toys". Because if the kids' social environment firmly believe in gender roles, then they will make sure to ingrain this into the kids' brains, no matter where they will find the toys in the future.
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In most cases bullying is not any different for girls that it is for boys or at least not in my experience of seeing it and what happens.
Speaking strictly on ponies (e.g. the aforementioned "shopping for Pinkie Pie", which is what I was referring to with mentioning adult males or boys still in school), you're right it can happen for women too, some are called childish for still liking ponies or are called weird for collecting them, though for the most part it seems there is a bigger stigma on boys and adult men liking ponies.
So I can't say guys buying ponies online is because they are wigged out about shopping in the pink section at Toys R Us, or if it's just easier and less hassle to buy it online. Buying ponies online isn't just a guy thing and each reason for doing it can be different.
Just passing on what some bronies have said on community forums regarding how some of them feel apprehensive and so order online instead (others are proud and walk in and take a whole box of ponies to the counter but everyone is different). But certainly for others it is just for convenience, especially since distribution of certain MLP stuff seems pretty hit and miss. :huh:
http://ukofequestria.co.uk/threads/sort-of-apprehensive-about-pony-merch.3629/
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I remember reading an article about this! I love it.
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I think this is great. I know as a child I always felt "safer" shopping in stores like Dollar General, etc. because even though their selection of toys wasn't as good, I didn't have to worry about being judged since, for the most part, they weren't divided by gender like the bigger stores. However, when I'd go to walmart, etc. I was always very reluctant to venture into the boys' aisle because I didn't want people to think I was deviant or get in trouble for being where I wasn't "supposed" to be. While I realize now as an adult, I wouldn't have actually gotten in trouble and there was really nothing to get in trouble for, the mind of a child works differently. Children's behaviors and interactions are relatively primitive and they're able to pick up on established territories very easily. Didn't you ever have areas on your playground that you avoided because that was "so-and-so group's spot"? It can be very intimidating for a young child to go against things like that, especially when their peers are very quick to pull out terms like dike and act like there's something wrong with them whenever there's even a hint that somebody might like something meant for the other gender. Even though not all stores actually label the aisles "boys" and "girls", everyone still knows which is meant for which. It might have originally been meant for ease of shopping, but it quickly went from "this is what they might or generally like" to "this is what they're supposed to like". I liked to look in the boys' section as well as the girls', but I did everything humanly possible to avoid being seen there and what should've been an enjoyable experience would often become stressful.
And I find it pretty insulting, these people telling us we had awful parents and it's all their fault we didn't have super outgoing, who-cares-what-other-people-think personalities as children. The opinions of others always weighed much more heavily on me that it did my parents. My parents were great and they didn't care a lick about any of this toy-gender garbage. They'd just roll with whatever I was in to. My oldest sibling is a boy so me and my sister grew up with his castoffs and there wasn't anything strange at all about playing with He-Man, etc. I had many of my own dinosaur, etc. "masculine" toys as well. And since I was raised on a farm, any farm related toys (tractors, animals, barn, etc) were entirely gender neutral as far as I was concerned. And when my family would visit my cousins (all boys) I would play with their combines and building/connector type sets. While I did end up having several barbies, my parents always knew I was never super frilly and I absolutely hated pink and wearing dresses and they never pressured me to be any way other that what I was. But walking into a store and seeing that (very obvious) separation, what was perfectly normal at home, seemed wrong in the eyes of society. You can call me overly-sensitive if you want, but it made me uncomfortable. The same way I get nervous now entering any part of the toy department as an adult. Toys aren't meant for adults and people around here know I don't have kids, if anyone I know sees me I know I'll be judged. It's almost the same feeling I had as a kid, afraid of being seen in the boys' section. Parents certainly can pass on gender views to their kids, but they are by no means the sole, or even primary, source of influence. No matter how important your parents are to you, that's still only two people against a whole world with other ideas.
That's great that some of you were so bold and daring, but what about those that aren't? The shy kids? The ones that just want to please? The ones who care what other people think and can't stand up to peer pressure the same way? The ones who DO have crazy, extremist parents?
I understand you not wanting to get used to a new organizational scheme, but it takes all of what? Five minutes tops? to walk through and figure out how things are laid out. And from then on you'll know exactly where to head, just like you do now. I know I went to TRU for probably the first time in my life just last year and it has a totally different set up from Walmart, aside from being much larger. I was confused at first, but then "Oh, look! There's signs, that's convenient." And now I know the general direction to aim for once I enter the doors. If you're super pressed for time or really can't figure it out, just ask a worker to point you in the right direction. You act like the toys aren't going to be sorted at all and they're just going to throw them all in a giant heap in the middle of the floor. Companies know better. They know they're going to have to make it so people can find what they're looking for if they come in for something specific. And if they don't have something specific in mind, this opens up the opportunity for variety for children. For instance, Hot Wheels and Barbies aren't going to be mingling on the same pegs, but it would be conceivable for the Barbies to be next to the Star Wars or other humanoid action figures. Bookstores have always been sorted by genre, not the gender of the protagonist, or which sex the publisher thinks the novel will appeal to, even though some genres do seem to draw in more readers of one gender than the other. I don't see how this concept is different. Bookstore = Genre then alphabetical; Toystore = Theme then brand. Makes perfect sense to me.
I can just picture it: A girl goes to get a unicorn toy and sees the much more awesome dragon toy right next to it, which she would've missed out on because previously it would've been in the boys' section. Or a boy looks for one of those robotic dogs and ends up liking the bright, fluffy furby or furreal friend more, which were now grouped together since they're all electronic pets.
Even if stores never decide to change the current layout, just more color variety in the girls section would be a wonderful thing too. I know some girls do like pink, even though I'm not one of them, but for goodness sake, offer SOMETHING ELSE! Anything else! Please!
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Incidentally, gender-specific clothes for kids is a pretty new concept too (in the US, anyway).
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This is young FDR.
I feel like there's increasing resistance to letting kids, even girls but especially boys, be "cute" anymore. Suddenly little girls have to be sexy (urgh) and boys have to be cool all the time.
This photo is amazing, and you should feel good.
ETA:
Why do people let other people decide what is right for them? I don't get it?
When you live at home with your parents and they abuse you for not conforming the gender binary - yeah, a little hard to just decide not to care... That's why I approve of this.
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I have never understood why this is an issue. Sure, the Barbies and ponies are grouped together. And the legos are near the dinosaurs. It's efficient. As a kid, I knew that I could go straight to certain aisles to find ponies, LPS, dolls, or stuffed animals. I liked girly and I liked pink. Nobody told me I had to, I just was drawn to those things (still am). I also liked dinosaurs and would go into the aisles with action figures to get those (my favorites were the Jurassic Park sets). I had a lot of Hot Wheels too. I never felt like I wasn't allowed in the "boy" aisles. Most kids don't even notice the separation for the most part. The whole concept of gender neutrality is something grown ups invented. I think kids can play with whatever they want. Putting the action figures next to the ponies won't really do much more than confuse people. Keeping similar toys next to each other is efficient, it makes things easier to find. Nobody is being sexist, they are being organized. If there was a sign that said "no girls/boys allowed," then there would be a problem. If a boy likes princesses, his parents can take him to the princess aisle. If a girl likes dinosaurs, she can go into the dinosaur aisle, just like I did.
Would you complain that keeping men women's clothing in separate areas is wrong? Nope. Because it makes sense to organize that way. I can still go get a goofy t shirt in the mens area if I want and a man can come get a cute cardigan in the women's section if that's what he wants. The only barriers are the ones we create in our minds.
*shrug*
I am a girl. I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers. I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
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I don't get the "It's harder to find things" argument... Isn't it easier to have one dress-ups section then two seperate ones at the opposite ends of the toy section?
It would also be easier for kids to find toys that interest them, if they liked fantasy it would be great to find all the fantasy toys together, if they like plastic animals then those would all be together too.
As a kid my parents supported whatever kind of toys I wanted to play with but I was still too scared to ask for the Harry Potter lego set and the interactive robot dinosaur that I really wanted, I was too scared to go into the blue section.
I really just can't see any negatives about this, it would make it easier for kids to find toys they are interested in and does not alienate anyone or make kids feel "wrong" if they want to get a toy that's typically aimed at the other gender.
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I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
I don't think anyone has said that at all. :what: Quite the opposite actually, many are fed up with not being considered "girly" or "boy..y?" enough. We just think kids should be able to look at and buy what they like rather than being judged or pressured into something they don't. This would at least help cut back on that a little.
I'm sorry if some comments made you think we were attacking your girlyness, that wasn't the point at all. :hug: It's just that people that aren't like you should feel their interests are just as acceptable. Like I've said before, it's great that you felt it was ok to explore any aisle, but many kids don't.
And I think organizing by theme rather than gender would be much easier to navigate once you just adjusted to it being something different than you're used to. For example, Barbies (a "girl" item) and action figures (a "boy" item) have much more in common than, say, dinosaurs and Hot Wheels (both "boy" items). It's not about mixing up all the boys items with the girls items to make it confusing to people, it's about getting people to stop thinking of them as boys vs girls items. It's about getting people to consider the interests of the child first, instead of just grabbing what they think is "appropriate". Also, some of your comments confused me. How is grouping legos next to dinosaurs more efficient? They don't have anything to do with each other; I don't see how they're "similar", as you said. That's what I'm in favor of, putting similar things next to each other, instead of in gender-oriented aisles. Unless the similarity you speak of is that they're both aimed at boys, then... yeah, I think my idea of similarity is better organizationally. :P Just my opinion. lol
Also, I don't think clothing is a good analogy. First of all, there is much more variety in women's clothing than there is in girls' toys. I can look at the women's clothing department without over 90% of my vision turning into a pink blur. "Girly" items are still readily available, they just aren't overwhelming the way they are in the toy aisle. Also, clothing isn't just separated because of what the stores/companies think people will prefer. Men and women have different body builds; therefore, the clothing itself is cut and fits very differently. Most of my wardrobe consists of men's (or "unisex") cut t-shirts, but I'll admit the tapering of a woman's cut shows off my figure much better. Jeans are also cut for various figures (women most often requiring shorter inseams and men having flatter butts). That's not to say that one can't wear something made for the other, as has already been stated, but tailoring based on biological differences is for an individual's physical comfort, not just society's fashion ideals, and does tend to give clothing a better fit. That is why it's practical to separate the clothing department. Toys can not claim the same.
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Has anyone saying it'll be harder to find things ever had to go into a store for the first time? Literally ever? :/ Last September I moved from Southern California to Idaho. I had never even thought about Idaho before. ALL of the stores were brand new. ALL of them. I had to get used to the Walmart, Albertson's, TRU, Target, Fred Meyer, the other Albertson's with a different layout, Petco, Petsmart, Michael's, Walgreen's, and the other Walmart with a hugely different layout. It was overwhelming at first, and it took a bit to get used to them. But less than a month later I knew where EVERYTHING we normally bought was in Walmart, TRU, and Target. Now? I can navigate all of those stores almost perfectly, and if I don't know where something is I find it. Do you know how? By walking around, looking at signs, and looking at aisles. Seriously, it is NOT that hard. I have an absolutely horrid memory but I know right where to go in the stores to find what I want.
And guess what? There are still MANY other stores here (at least 40, probably MORE) I have never been in and have no idea where they keep anything. If I go into them, I actually figure it out. I look at signs, I look at the aisles. If I seriously cannot figure it out (like if I'm too short to see very high up ceiling signs, which yes has happened) I can -gasp- ask an employee! It is their JOB to help you. If they're a jerk, tell their manager if you care that much and ask someone else. You don't have to stand in the middle of the store confused and lost because you don't know where things are. LEARN!
Do you guys think the toys would just be thrown in a huge pile, like someone else mentioned? (At least, I'm 90% sure someone else said that.) Because that is NOT what would happen. What would happen, you ask? Toys would be grouped by type instead of gender. I don't think people not wanting to take five minutes walking around/reading signs/asking employees about a new toy layout is more important than doing what we can to break down such hugely obvious gender barriers like that. In fact, I think that's pretty damn selfish.
Again, all "you"s etc are in general, and not directed at one person.
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I am not entirely happy to have to come back to this but....this thread is full of opinions - your own individual opinions. State your opinion, do not bash other peoples - calling other people out, even if you are not directing it at one person is not acceptable - in addition calling other people "insulting" or "ridiculous" or "selfish" for not agreeing with you is not engaging in a debate its simply going to aggravate this thread.
So this is indeed a warning people - to keep it on topic and to keep it civil.
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I am a girl. I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers. I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
Ok, and that's fine, but what about the people who don't fit into those constructions that society just made up... I don't think people think how damaging it can be to be the OTHER person, who doesn't like pink, or who doesn't like sports, etc... Nobody is attacking your liking pink, they're saying hey for the girls that don't, this is great. People are saying, hey for the boys that would enjoy an MLP but might never know they do because their parents shove them into the arbitrarily labeled "Blue for Boys!! With Trucks and Robots Because That's What ALL Boys Like You guys!" aisle. It's more fair to break down these stupid rules. You can keep on liking your pink, and the girls who don't will get to see new items... Also it's not as simple as "oh, just go walk in the boy's aisle then and stop caring what your parents think!" and "kids don't even know the difference!" oh yes they do...what do you think happens when you're a boy and you bring a girl's toy to school? Think none of the other boys (and girls) are gonna notice? Kids absorb these stupid "rules" like sponges, and they are horrible to each other. And it goes from toys, to clothes, to hobbies, to everything else. I was assigned Female at birth (that means born "female") but I identify as male (that means trans*) but I hide this from others. Besides the fact the majority of people attempt to dehumanize me and put me into their little Society Male/Female Boxes, someone "looking" female and doing male things...you know how that feels? I've had "Dyke!" screamed at me and rocks thrown at my car. I wore a suit to my graduation dance...my mother cried over it and was horrible to me, why can't I just wear a dress like "NORMAL girls"...wtf is a normal girl? What if I didn't identify as male but female and I wanted to wear a friggin suit or play with what I want? No, it's, I'm the freak for "not staying in the pink aisle." Ok...? So you can stay in the pink aisle...which isn't a problem...and life is definitely easier that way...and I actually LIKE pink, and MLP, and Disney, and all of that...which is useful in "passing" without people giving my grief...but try to buy male looking clothes around here? Freak, dyke, etc...and I HAVE a girlfriend. So yeah. Life is easier if you don't care and stay in "the aisle" society decided you should be in...but what if you don't? What if you're in "the other one" or, in fact, NONE at all? Because I "fit" nowhere. And I don't want to have to go into "Girls over here!" and "Boys over here!" just to get a stupid toy...enough with this whole dumb "EVERYTHING DIVIDED BY GENDER" BS...I just got a BUZZ CUT at a salon yesterday, and they charged be 20$ extra than what other men have to pay. For a "women's cut"...LOL WHAT? So because I have breasts and you're going to charge me 20$ more than the guy you just gave a buzz cut? OK, THAT'S TOTALLY FAIR LOL.
Society...you are so messed up.
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For example, Barbies (a "girl" item) and action figures (a "boy" item) have much more in common
Yeah to be honest a lot of Barbies are figures with points of articulation at its purest. Though due to the marketing and the way other figures don't have a dominance of one colour they would look strikingly different based on just that. Maybe if more variation came through in the way the toys are made it'd make that separation less apparent when they're put side by side.
But something like Monster High are figures with points of articulation that seem to have many different colours, both on the figures and the actual packaging too (black, blue, pink, yellow, green, orange, purple etc.). They seem to of broken the mould but still popular with girls and gotten boys on board, reading a forum thread for them some say Mattel has targeted both genders from the start. But from photos on Google it seems they are put specifically in the section with painted pink walls in Target? I've not actually seen a big display of them (I probably just wasn't looking for them) so I genuinely don't know where they are placed in UK stores though.
Just incase (though I mentioned it earlier in the thread) - I don't think pink is terrible. I like Fluttershy, she has pink hair. I collected anime figures (when I had the cash to) and some have pink outfits or pink hair. It's not my favourite colour but it doesn't put me off buying something. However it would be cool for the way the toys are manufactured and packaged to have less reliance a single colour. But there is certainly nothing wrong with someone loving pink and it should always remain as a choice :)
With Sylvanian Families as a example (little animal dolls in doll houses), it doesn't have a dominance of pink, but you can get pink clothes, furniture etc. amongst many other colours.
With regard to organization I think so long as things are still grouped by brand or toy type, itwouldn't get too messy. Especially if they have a logo or display banner above them. Forbidden Planet, a comic book store chain, have started to stock My Little Pony blind bags. There's no pink painted walls but they do group things by show/series or by product type so things are still organized.
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I think that all toy stores should be arranged by theme rather than 'girls' and 'boys'. Not all parents have the confidence to go against social norms in order to bring up kids as comfortable in themselves as some of your parents did. 'Boys' toys are either fighting, building or vehicles and 'girls' toys are baby dolls and cuddly toys and cooking stations and pretend make up kits - and most children will be affected by this. :(
I see evidence of it daily - so many parents saying "oh no, you can't have that, it's for girls" etc. The majority of British kids I see are either 'strong', 'clever' boys or 'beautiful', 'princess' girls (this includes my brothers' children). I'm afraid that while this seems harmless, it feeds into the long standing ideas that men should be competitive and smart and strong and women should be good-looking and demure and homely. After all, men do still get higher earning jobs and women (at least in Britain) still do the vast majority of housework and childcare (even if they have jobs too!) :huh:
I saw a documentary recently in which they were talking to a female firefighter and she still gets so much prejudice about it, both from other firefighters and from the public -with some people implying that they wouldn't want to rely on her to save them from a fire :blink:. We really do need to finally start breaking down these barriers at the level of society, starting with how our children dress and play, so that boys and girls can both grow up to be strong, gentle, smart, beautiful and most importantly, EQUAL.
That's how I feel about it anyway.
ps: I couldn't help noticing that in the article, they mentioned that Harrods still puts their male workers in blue and female workers in pink.
" "We are not stopping our female members of staff wearing a boy T-shirt, should they want to," he said, adding: "Although they are a different cut."
So there was no gender connotations whatsoever in the choice? "No, none at all." " :mad:
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I am a girl. I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers. I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
It's not a case of 'its bad to like 'girly' things if you are female it's more a case of 'there's nothing wrong with girls liking pink, there's also nothing wrong with boys liking pink'.
Although I agree there is this horrible backlash at times. People who get so concerned about 'girly' that they freak out about women wanting to be 'feminine' and act like it's the worst thing ever.
Basically, I would love society to get to a point where people can like whatever they want without it having a bit 'gender label' stuck to it and without it being such a cause for concern that someone likes something outside of their 'gender binary' or conversley if they stick to said 'gender binary'
People get pushed into gender roles even if they don't really conform. I've had the occassional 'oh why don't you like this? why don't you wear skirts? why don't you wear makeup? why don't you be more 'girly' over the years. I personally have a very 'down the middle' split on what I like and like a mixture of both 'feminine' and 'masculine' things and don't see why that should be such an issue.
don't? What if you're in "the other one" or, in fact, NONE at all? Because I "fit" nowhere I just got a BUZZ CUT at a salon yesterday, and they charged be 20$ extra than what other men have to pay. For a "women's cut"...LOL WHAT? So because I have breasts and you're going to charge me 20$ more than the guy you just gave a buzz cut? OK, THAT'S TOTALLY FAIR LOL.
Society...you are so messed up.
I agree with you there, when my hair is cut which is probably 2x a year it's a case of 'wash and relayer' and my hair usually ends up quite short for a while yet it costs quite a bit but the 'barber shop' part of the hairdressers I go to is much cheaper. My brother only needs to pay something like 9GBP to get his hair cut I apparently need to pay 20somethingGBP for mine. hair is hair and mine doesn't need any special treatment or colourings etc so why should it cost more for mine? my hair doesn't even take that long to sort out.
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Didn't Toys-R-Us try this a few years back? (I know I read something about it in one of the toy industry magazines.......) I thought it ultimately hurt their sales, because consumers were more confused about where to locate items and they would give up and shop elsewhere?
Yes they did and it went so so, the Inmaganirum. It is still around, for the most part stores are arranged by age, then gender, when you get to the older toys it is just by type.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
This. I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section. I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.
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I am a girl. I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers. I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
Nothing is wrong about you and I think nobody tries to make you feel that way :)
But that is exactly the message gendered advertising supports: that some things are "for boys" and some things are "for girls" and when you don't play along with that notion you're a weirdo and a freak.
When I was a little girl I loved to play with MLPs and my Barbies, but I also loved my Legos and Ninja Turtles.
It is wrong to insist that toys that are all about conflict, competition, "yuckiness", building and logic are for boys and toys that are about fashion, caring for children, "cuteness" and love are for girls.
That's plain sexist.
I know a lot of people who weren't allowed the toys or clothes they wanted back when they were little just because their choices didn't conform to the gender binary and the associated stereotypes that come with it.
They thought they were strange for wanting to play with something that was apparently "not normal for their gender".
"Boy toys" are associated with coolness and action while "girl toys" are associated with weakness and superficiality (clothes, make-up, decoration).
If you put the toys into new categories; for example "animals", "building", "vehicles" instead of "girls" and "boys" you take away some of the pressure. The underlying message is that kids can pick what they want, instead of getting guided into a gender role ("boys have to be violent and competitive, girls have to be pretty and caring").
It's about choice (like many things in life).
Just because you identify as a woman doesn't mean you have to stop loving "girly" stuff. But men/boys can also like "girly stuff" and women/girls can like "boy stuff" (even though the latter is probably more accepted in our society due to "male" still being the dominant, "better" gender) and nobody should feel awkward for their hobbies and interests just because of their sexes or genders.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
This. I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section. I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.
Its great that your kids are that confident and don't let the aisles bother them! But not every child is like that. Its been said over and over by people who are now adults that the "girl" toys and "boy" toys divide caused them problems as kids, even in some cases with fully supportive parents who didn't care if their daughter wanted "boy" toys or vice versa. Their problems should NOT be ignored or written off just because you/your kids never had an issue with that. Your experience and the experiences of your children are NOT the only experiences out there/don't automatically match everyone else's experiences/etc.
"You"s are general aside from the first sentence.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
This. I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section. I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.
Its great that your kids are that confident and don't let the aisles bother them! But not every child is like that. Its been said over and over by people who are now adults that the "girl" toys and "boy" toys divide caused them problems as kids, even in some cases with fully supportive parents who didn't care if their daughter wanted "boy" toys or vice versa. Their problems should NOT be ignored or written off just because you/your kids never had an issue with that. Your experience and the experiences of your children are NOT the only experiences out there/don't automatically match everyone else's experiences/etc.
"You"s are general aside from the first sentence.
Taxel, please don't get hostile. I never said that my experience was everyone's. Like you, I'm just contributing an opinion. Again, which is why I said it's probably ADULTS that have those issues, not children. There are many of my kids' friends, both boys and girls, whom I've seen at my Target, and they are just meandering with their kids in the toy aisles, regardless of the gender.
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I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
I don't think anyone has said that at all. :what: Quite the opposite actually, many are fed up with not being considered "girly" or "boy..y?" enough. We just think kids should be able to look at and buy what they like rather than being judged or pressured into something they don't. This would at least help cut back on that a little.
Oh, I didn't mean you guys. It seems like society in general frowns on girls liking girly things because we should be more "liberated" or something like that. I may not have phrased myself well, because I was more or less agreeing with you. Any kid should be able to buy any toy they want, regardless of its target gender. I just think that people are putting so much effort into forcing neutrality, that some little girls actually feel embarrassed liking pink and sparkles - I say this from experience. I loved pink and sparkles and other girl stuff when I was little until I got made fun of for being too girlie. I got rid of my pink backpack, gave away my pink and purple bike with a flower basket, heart seat, and sparkle streamers, and I stopped using my Lisa Frank folders. I was so upset that I didn't wear pink for over 10 years.
I don't mind how Harrod's is organizing. I just don't see why it matters that much where the toys are shelved. The little boys who want ponies might still be embarrassed to ask for them and the girls who want hot wheels may still be told they can't have them. It's all something controlled by the parents and the other kids who might pick on them.
Hopefully that was a little more clear, I don't think I chose my wording well last time. :lookround:
Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
This. I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section. I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.
I agree. I didn't even blink an eye at girl's vs boy's toys when I was a kid. That's why I said that gender neutrality and separation are adult concepts. When I was a kid, I just saw "toys." Some I liked, some I didn't. It had nothing to do with what I was "supposed" to like, I just liked it.
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Honestly? I've got kids and I can tell you something for a fact, kids don't care about being gender neutral. My eldest daughter also doesn't care if she wants to buy a rocket or a football, the same way my youngest daughter doesn't think about how her dolls, ponies and pink sparkly things are 'female'. They actually don't care. It's adults that have the issues about it ;)
This. I have four girls, and when we are at Target, they are just as likely to go look at the Legos and Hot Wheels in the boy section as they are at the ponies and LPS in the girl section. I honestly believe it's adults and not kids that have these issues.
Yes I can really agree with this being my experience also having worked with children for 25 years now out of the hundreds I have worked with, I had one that had some gender issues and I allowed her to be herself. The mother, however, freaked out and started crying and losing her mind in front of her kid which, in my opinion, was far worse for her child than a non gender neutral enviornment. I also realize too that there are kids that are affected. I am just not so sure how much this is going to help honestly...since they spend so little time in a toy store. I can see where people are coming from...I am just not so convinced.
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It's absolutely an adult concept.
Also whilst in TRU today I had a good look around.
I found NO signs/evidence of 'boy' section or 'girl' section. It was set up like so, with signs saying:
Action Toys
Educational
Baby
Barbie
Disney ( no mention of HEY GIRLS THIS IS YOUR SECTION)
Lego
Creative.
Also for the record, Lego was directly next to LPS and MLP. And hello kitty and moshI monsters skateboards were in the same section as a football table game and a pink air hockey table. There was also a giant basket of footballs right next to a giant basket of big pink fluffy teddy bears.
So sorry, but no, there is no 'gender divide' in TRU....and seeing as they are a chain, I imagine the WHOLE of the UK TRU stores are set out the same.
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Uhh then why are all the barbies and dolls and MLP in blindingly pink aisles and the robots, actions figures and cars in blue ones?
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Yea I don't see signs in the toy stores I shop in at all. When they rearrange everything from how I am use to it being set up its madness for me trying to find stuff. Nothing is in that girl logical place. I have to shop for my Hello Kitty stuff in a completely different area of the store. Also at the store I shop at LPS is not around Barbie at all but closer to hello kitty and its not pink over there at all as LPS is in blue packaging and HK is usually in Red and White. Oh and when I was in Walmart a few days ago, MLP was on the end of an isle all by itself, and right across from MLP to where all I had to do was turn around and take two steps was the Marvel Comic set up and I bought my husband two blind bags. Both were right next to each other..no pink other than MLP packaging...
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Uhh then why are all the barbies and dolls and MLP in blindingly pink aisles and the robots, actions figures and cars in blue ones?
Yeah, basically this. If you think sexism and gender roles are dead you need to step back and take a good look at modern society.
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But we surely can't eliminate pink and blue? So if we take out the pink, what do we replace it with? Also by making sections neutral coloured, will that make little boys more likely to buy a Barbie? Will that little boy get no stick at school anymore because his Barbie is in a green aisle and the packaging is grey?!
Also the LPS and mlp are not in a pink aisle in any stores I've seen. Only Barbie and baby dollies seem to be overflowing with pink.
Barbie has always been about the pink.
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Usually the only thing I think when I'm in a Toy Store is...Yay, I'm in a toy store.
If it's this hard to actually shop in a toy store then I'm sorry some people are finding it's so stressful or feel the need to go on a ranting fit about the downfall of modern society as we know it.
Heck Find a friend to shop with you or find a friend of the opposite sex if you feel that wigged out going on the invisibly designated boy/girl section. Heck, ask to borrow a friend or family members kid to make your shopping experience in a toy store easier.
Borrowing a kid is the best way to have fun at disney world to, I highly recommend finding a friend that has kids to make 'kid' stuff fun again.
If you already have kids then congrats, you get to get all the kids stuff and none of the weird looks as to why you are in a toy store.
Make it less stressful and stop worrying about what the other shoppers are thinking about you cause they're probably not thinking about you.
And on the bright side if you are like me and have to travel about an hour to get to any good stores, you'll probably never see those shoppers again that are 'apparently' judging you for being on the wrong isle.
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It might not make a boy more likely to buy a Barbie... BUt I think that it will do less to enforce the divide in kids' minds as they grow up. They might remember "toys" more than "all that pink stuff, and then the boy stuff". Kids get their gender stuff from their parents. And gender neutral toy stores i think is a good step to get parents to stop enforcing gender stuff too.
And also, if a boy DID want to play with a Barbie, I think he would be more likely to do so if it wasn't in the "girls'" section.
I hope that all made sense. lol
At our TRU the aisles are pink for all the girl stuff, yeah, and dark...something or other for the boy stuff. Alo the customers refer to the toys a the girls' and boys' section too. And all the girl toys are in the same section, and separate from the boys.
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Usually the only thing I think when I'm in a Toy Store is...Yay, I'm in a toy store.
If it's this hard to actually shop in a toy store then I'm sorry some people are finding it's so stressful or feel the need to go on a ranting fit about the downfall of modern society as we know it.
Heck Find a friend to shop with you or find a friend of the opposite sex if you feel that wigged out going on the invisibly designated boy/girl section. Heck, ask to borrow a friend or family members kid to make your shopping experience in a toy store easier.
Borrowing a kid is the best way to have fun at disney world to, I highly recommend finding a friend that has kids to make 'kid' stuff fun again.
If you already have kids then congrats, you get to get all the kids stuff and none of the weird looks as to why you are in a toy store.
Make it less stressful and stop worrying about what the other shoppers are thinking about you cause they're probably not thinking about you.
And on the bright side if you are like me and have to travel about an hour to get to any good stores, you'll probably never see those shoppers again that are 'apparently' judging you for being on the wrong isle.
ROFLOL seriously yes..this...I go into stores hoping I don't see anyone I know because most likely I don't have my make up on and look horrible. I am hoping to get out there sight unseen. :lol: Besides how does anyone not know you aren't buying a gift for a boy? Or if you are a boy on the girl isle..buying a gift for a girl you know? I can't honestly say I remember anyone that was shopping on the Barbie isle the other day and if anyone looked out of place at all. I didn't even hear anyone making rude comments in the toy section. People were pretty nice actually..except for the one lady with the huge basket oblivious to the fact we were all trying to go by her. :satisfied:
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I know when I was younger I was embarrassed about liking "boy things" 95% of the stuff I liked was girly, but I remember liking Ninja Turtles and my cousin making fun of me because it was a "boy show" :P And I also remember being embarrassed to tell anyone my favorite color was green because it was a "boy color". You were considered weird if you were a girl and your favorite color wasn't purple ;)
That being said, I like the toy aisles as they are because stuff is easier to find. If I want a pony, I go to the girls aisle. If I want an X-Men figurine, I go to the boys aisle. It's easier to shop that way.
As for being bombarded with pink, I am a bit sick of that. Pink is my favorite color now (green became second after a while, lol) but I don't like pink on EVERYTHING. I do like lots of other colors and I would love to see more green and blue ponies! We have waaay too many pink ones.
And actually, pink used to be considered a boy color and blue a girl color back in the early 1900's. Pinks and reds were harsher and blues were softer and more feminine. I just think it's funny that society has changed it and now little boys don't dare get anything that's pink :P At least my nephew doesn't :P
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Ok: mlp is predominantly pink. So is Barbie. However it sounds like there's a problem with the 'pink '
Just to clarify: you want everything to be gender neutral in the toy stores....so does that include 'pretty pink princess sparklepants Barbie' or pinkie pie .....do the actual toys need to change, or you just want a neutral section to be able to buy your pink toys from?
Good luck with telling Hasbro and Mattel to make their colours neutral.
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Yea because they will lose massive amounts of profits and go out of business quickly.
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MLP in TRU around here tends to be an end display to the aisle dominated with pink. It's all pretty varied up until that area though. Which is why I think the video posted further back with the 4 year old girl noticing a distinction is apt, as they say "different colours" for boys, rather than blue.
Mattel actually make the Monster High range, the packaging is all different colours (including pink and blue) and so are the dolls, they seem very popular right now so it doesn't seem to of hurt sales. But in America, the photos I've seen have the walls behind them painted pink.
Noone on this thread has said pink should not be an option or that pink is bad. But looking at Sylvanian Families, there isn't a dominance of pink but pink is a nice choice amongst many, they do well in sales. When you look at the way cereal packaging works, they want to stand out from others on the shelf, so colour variety is not such a bad thing in marketing either. I don't think there is a need for "gender neutral colour schemes", since pink or blue is fine as an option and need not be excluded. :)
American stores do seem to take it further though in that the walls themselves are painted pink or blue, whether or not the products themselves actually use that colour (which most of the "boys toys" in the following spoiler picture does not as far as I can tell), not something I see in UK stores here though without painted walls stores do get a similar effect as to the 2nd picture over here.
Spoiler
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Apparently some American stores have "boys toys" or "girls toys" signs as well. It seems The Entertainer in UK did this too, I don't see it in their stores around here so maybe it was removed in recent months, but as recent as January 2012 I see people saying certain branches having this so I don't know if it's still up in certain branches:
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In the US, I have come across a few stores that specifically label the aisles as Boys and Girls in the toy department. Just because it is a non-issue for some people doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I think it's great that many people felt and still feel comfortable no matter which section they're shopping in. I don't have a problem with it anymore, myself. However, for every person who is okay with it, there's a person or two who isn't. And that's not okay. The point isn't that we need to make it harder to find things or go on some social crusade. The point is that it's ridiculous that some kids should feel wrong becuase of what toy aisle they're looking in. Again, not every kid feels this way, but even from looking as this thread, people have expressed that they did feel awkward, even as children. I think that's proof that this does effect kids. Whether it's stores or the parents or society in general, kids are picking up on the gender divide whether you think so or not. A boy in my preschool class was often picked on because he played with Barbies. So even if this toy store idea doesn't solve the problem, maybe it'll be a step in the right direction. And where's the harm in that?
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Ok: mlp is predominantly pink. So is Barbie. However it sounds like there's a problem with the 'pink '
Just to clarify: you want everything to be gender neutral in the toy stores....so does that include 'pretty pink princess sparklepants Barbie' or pinkie pie .....do the actual toys need to change, or you just want a neutral section to be able to buy your pink toys from?
Good luck with telling Hasbro and Mattel to make their colours neutral.
Why is it such a problem to take into account other peoples' feelings on this? It's just great if some people like pink and fit in with gender stereotypes but you know a lot of people don't. "PINK AISLE" = "GIRL AISLE" and "BLUE AISLE" = "BOY AISLE." What Harrod's is doing is putting toys together by TYPE not by stupid colours. And MLP are most certainly in the blindingly pink aisle at my TRU, right along with Littlest Pet Shop, fakies and other random stuff. It's not just the colour PINK. If it was the colour GREEN it would be the same thing. Society has built up gender like it essential, BUT IT ISN'T... People need to stop being shoved into boxes and dumb categories. I'd rather not be assaulted by the ridiculous, stupid and damaging gender binary/stereotypes everywhere I go, and starting with kids' toys is a great idea. Because kids put pressure on each other from Day 1. You become a "freak" if you think 1) there is nothing essential about the colour [WHICHEVER in this case pink] and feminity; 2) you don't fit in to the stupid societal construct of what femininity even "is"/is "supposed" to mean; 2) even organising toys boy "GIRLS" and "BOYS" suggests that BOYS like those toys and GIRLS like the other ones. These put people into categories!
And why do people think that these stupid, dumb, random sets of rules are not only essential, but unchangeable? Like some sort of dumb societal jungle; you need to just 'deal with it'? 'Put your big girl panties on and go into the blue aisle if you feel like it'? Why should I even have to do that? What if I want it to be EQUAL instead of people making assumptions about others because of what sex they were assigned at birth? And why is everybody so defensive saying how BAD that is? You're sidelining a lot of people who don't fit in with that system and feel it discriminates against them and feel that it offends them. Why is it always just 'OH GROW UP AND DEAL WITH IT.' Why? Why don't we change these stupid rules so EVERYONE can feel safe and comfortable in who they are?
In conclusion, Harrod's is doing a great thing and I support this message.
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So even if this toy store idea doesn't solve the problem, maybe it'll be a step in the right direction
Ha, you said it far better than I did. XD
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Ok: mlp is predominantly pink. So is Barbie. However it sounds like there's a problem with the 'pink '
Just to clarify: you want everything to be gender neutral in the toy stores....so does that include 'pretty pink princess sparklepants Barbie' or pinkie pie .....do the actual toys need to change, or you just want a neutral section to be able to buy your pink toys from?
Good luck with telling Hasbro and Mattel to make their colours neutral.
Why is it such a problem to take into account other peoples' feelings on this? It's just great if some people like pink and fit in with gender stereotypes but you know a lot of people don't. "PINK AISLE" = "GIRL AISLE" and "BLUE AISLE" = "BOY AISLE." What Harrod's is doing is putting toys together by TYPE not by stupid colours. And MLP are most certainly in the blindingly pink aisle at my TRU, right along with Littlest Pet Shop, fakies and other random stuff. It's not just the colour PINK. If it was the colour GREEN it would be the same thing. Society has built up gender like it essential, BUT IT ISN'T... People need to stop being shoved into boxes and dumb categories. I'd rather not be assaulted by the ridiculous, stupid and damaging gender binary/stereotypes everywhere I go, and starting with kids' toys is a great idea. Because kids put pressure on each other from Day 1. You become a "freak" if you think 1) there is nothing essential about the colour [WHICHEVER in this case pink] and feminity; 2) you don't fit in to the stupid societal construct of what femininity even "is"/is "supposed" to mean; 2) even organising toys boy "GIRLS" and "BOYS" suggests that BOYS like those toys and GIRLS like the other ones. These put people into categories!
And why do people think that these stupid, dumb, random sets of rules are not only essential, but unchangeable? Like some sort of dumb societal jungle; you need to just 'deal with it'? 'Put your big girl panties on and go into the blue aisle if you feel like it'? Why should I even have to do that? What if I want it to be EQUAL instead of people making assumptions about others because of what sex they were assigned at birth? And why is everybody so defensive saying how BAD that is? You're sidelining a lot of people who don't fit in with that system and feel it discriminates against them and feel that it offends them. Why is it always just 'OH GROW UP AND DEAL WITH IT.' Why? Why don't we change these stupid rules so EVERYONE can feel safe and comfortable in who they are?
In conclusion, Harrod's is doing a great thing and I support this message.
Thank you!!!!
This post is just great, and is so spot-on.
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And, speaking as a man who likes girl stuff... I certainly hate people telling me it's unnatural or perverted. >P Stupid genders. Changing how kids look at things is an AWESOME start! C:
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I am a girl. I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers. I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
The problem is not you being a girl and liking these things. No one says that's wrong. The problem is that they're labeled as "girly" to begin with. Because, they're not. They're just things (what's girly about a stuffed animal or a pony, seriously...?). These annoying gender specialized labels really have to go. They don't help and only make people....narrow minded, as I see daily in the toy stores: "Nono, this is for girls. You can't buy that".
Also, is it just me or did this gender segregation become worse in the last 20 years? I can't remember everything being so pink in the girl section when I was young. Sure the girl section was obviously "girly"with dolls and stuff, but today it really seems ridiculous.
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I don't remember it being all pink myself. lol MLPwas blue, Rainbow Brite was yellow. She shelves were whatever color the shelves were lol
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I haven't posted again because I can't really express my opinion any better than I did earlier, but I really want to say, Mosspath, I love you for this:
In the US, I have come across a few stores that specifically label the aisles as Boys and Girls in the toy department. Just because it is a non-issue for some people doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I think it's great that many people felt and still feel comfortable no matter which section they're shopping in. I don't have a problem with it anymore, myself. However, for every person who is okay with it, there's a person or two who isn't. And that's not okay. The point isn't that we need to make it harder to find things or go on some social crusade. The point is that it's ridiculous that some kids should feel wrong becuase of what toy aisle they're looking in. Again, not every kid feels this way, but even from looking as this thread, people have expressed that they did feel awkward, even as children. I think that's proof that this does effect kids. Whether it's stores or the parents or society in general, kids are picking up on the gender divide whether you think so or not. A boy in my preschool class was often picked on because he played with Barbies. So even if this toy store idea doesn't solve the problem, maybe it'll be a step in the right direction. And where's the harm in that?
And also
Why is it such a problem to take into account other peoples' feelings on this?
I know no one here is intending to be hurtful, and that this is a difficult topic to discuss. We're all trying to express our opinions calmly and share our perspectives. But when I hear that someone or their kid doesn't have an issue with gendered toy stores, therefore it doesn't matter and even shouldn't matter, it hurts a bit. :( I and others have said repeatedly here how gender-divided toy aisles actually did matter to us when we were kids. I'm glad not all kids are bothered by it, really glad. But some are. To see their feelings and needs dismissed is very upsetting to me.
And some Canadian stores aren't just subtly coded with pink/blue either, but do have signs that explicitly say "Girls Toys" and "Boys Toys" over the aisles. Superstore is one that does this.
Just because this is not a problem for everyone, doesn't mean this is not a problem at all.
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My eight year old daughter made the observation this weekend after we came home from a shopping trip, "Dad, why is all the girls' stuff just pink or purple? Why do boys get stuff in other colours? Am I not supposed to like blue or red because I'm a girl?"
I thought it was insightful of her to make such an observation. Having said that, for much of the past five years she has been all about the pink frilly dresses and pink curtains with sequins. There's no doubting the appeal for many little girls, but I think much of it is a learned association. Go back a few generations and pink was actually the preferred colour little boys rooms were painted.
Anyhow, I'm proud that my daughter, who is very girly, isn't blinded by the pink thing and has an appreciattion for all kinds of colours. She artistic too, which might help, as she is very interested in colour combinations and what looks good. It's just interesting to me that she was resentful of the colour variety that boys' toys seem to enjoy.
At least with the pony brand, the colour bias is largely restricted to the packaging. The ponies themselves are delightfully polychromatic (Rainbow Dash for the win), even if Hasbro over-represents the pink ponies in their line.
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Didn't Toys-R-Us try this a few years back? (I know I read something about it in one of the toy industry magazines.......) I thought it ultimately hurt their sales, because consumers were more confused about where to locate items and they would give up and shop elsewhere?
Yes they did and it went so so, the Inmaganirum. It is still around, for the most part stores are arranged by age, then gender, when you get to the older toys it is just by type.
*quietly*. I miss the Imaginarium, just because it was a fun toy store from my childhood. :)
Back on topic, I give props to Harrods for attempting gender-neutrality. I think a lot of things come into play when it comes to kids and toys and whether or not there's a gender divide. For example, as a kid, I loved my Barbies and stuffed animals and 2 MLPs - but I also had Hot Wheels, Legos and video games. I actually think Legos used to be fairly gender-neutral but anyway. . . on the other hand, my brother-in-law is very specific about what toys my nephew can play with and they definitely have to be "boy" toys.
So, obviously, parents play an integral role. Store set-up does, too, I think (what would my brother-in-law do if he coudn't find said boy's aisle?). But I also believe that friends, family and society expectations play a role as well. They don't affect all kids (not me) but they do affect many and while I had no problem playing with the boy toys at home, odds were that I wasn't going to bring them to school with me and I don't remember playing anything but "girls" toys with other girls.
So, I think this is a good 1st step and I hope it is well-received. :)
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I am a girl. I like pink, sparkles, ponies, stuffed animals, dolls, and flowers. I wish people would stop trying to insist that it's wrong for girls like me to like girly things. :huh:
The problem is not you being a girl and liking these things. No one says that's wrong. The problem is that they're labeled as "girly" to begin with. Because, they're not. They're just things (what's girly about a stuffed animal or a pony, seriously...?). These annoying gender specialized labels really have to go. They don't help and only make people....narrow minded, as I see daily in the toy stores: "Nono, this is for girls. You can't buy that".
This ^ is what I wanted to say when I looked at this thread earlier, but couldn't come up with a concise enough way to say it.
When I was a kid and an obscure relative would get a gift for me for birthdays or holidays, it was always Barbie. I never liked Barbie, never wanted Barbie. Had they taken a second to ask my mom or, hey, ME what I actually played with they'd have known it was dinosaurs. They just assumed since I was a girl, I'd like Barbie. That's the problem.
There are no "girl toys" or "boy toys" they're just... toys. I'm not going to comment on the color issue because I watch a lot of pro wrestling and a lot of wrestlers wear pink and/or purple, so to me the whole colors being gender specific is just weird. Even Undertaker wore purple, and so did his action figure -shrug-
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This is a really interesting thread but if we can keep it to individual thoughts rather than calling out - this is the last time I am going to make this request.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and has their own thoughts and feelings on the matter - I even have my own :P For me it comes down to a couple of things. I don't have a problem with the concept of a gender divide - [putting aside "sexuality"] the world wouldn't exist if we didn't have "men" and "women". I understand some people don't like the idea of a division or being segregated into one sex or the other and that is their opinion, and a good opinion at that, but at the same time I would like to think everyone understands the other point of view as well. We are all individuals and can be who and what we wish.
For me, a brand like MLP - which I apologise if it offends anyone - is about as girly girl a brand as you can get [outside Barbie :P] - and is fundamentally a "feminine toy" aimed at the market of little girls. Yes I know there are plenty of guys who like it and that's not only cool but [in many ways] awesome :). But if I collected Transformers I would be fully accepting of the fact I collected a "boys toy".
I think we are reading too much into it being girls and boys - its divided that way for easy marketing. When I sit with a client and ask who their target market is the worst response they can ever give is "everyone" - there is no such market as "everyone". Whether it be a cake or a car or a toy things have better impact and sell better when they have a large but specific market - whether that market be a subtle targeted one or as blatant as men or women. In many ways that's all "boys" and "girls" toys are about - its about saying lets make this toy "cool for boys" or "sought after for girls" - make them talk about it with their friends, make them drag their parents to TRU to pick it up, make them ask Santa for everything to do with it on their Christmas list. Its all about making money - depressing but true. Yes some toys cross the divide - someone's earlier example of board games is a great one - although even there there are some obvious divisions. As a marketeer and as someone who, in her own opinion, collects toys "for little girls", I personally dont have an issue with girls toys and boys toys being different - but I can also appreciate that other people do have rightful concerns about it.
I think its one of those topics which we are probably going to all have to agree on one thing - we agree to disagree!
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The world wouldn't exist if we didn't have "men" and "women".
Do you just mean human society? Because there are many beings who reproduce in different ways. o,o
We are all individuals and can be who and what we wish.
This is actually, what I think. XD I would prefer if people would first and foremost see each other as individuals and not primarily as "female" or "male". There's a lot of "Women are so hard to understand" and "men just can't talk about their feelings" and so on, but I really think there lies the problem of gender segregation. To group half the human population into one group really has not much point in my eyes. For example, I really have nothing in common with my sister, but a lot with her boyfriend. Other people in general are hard to understand because you can't read their minds, and so on.
When I sit with a client and ask who their target market is the worst response they can ever give is "everyone" - there is no such market as "everyone". Whether it be a cake or a car or a toy things have better impact and sell better when they have a large but specific market - whether that market be a subtle targeted one or as blatant as men or women.
But to be fair...as I stated above, there is really not much difference if you market to everyone or 50% of all humans. It's still a ridiculous huge group who has nothing in common with each other, except two X chromosomes (and how big that influence is, is debatable). Most "differences" between genders are made up by society (that's why they often differ vastly between cultures) and that's probably why most people have problems with them.
You said a brand as MLP is as girly as you can get and, to be honest, I agree. But why do we think it is girly? If you look at it objectively, it's just a little pony toy, in a rainbow color. There's nothing that says "girly" about it, except that we, as a society, in the last 100 years or so agreed that "combing hair, ponies and rainbow colors are girly". While totally understandable how this came to be, I personally find this silly and if gender neutral shelves help to close this weird, made up gender groups, I'm fine with it.
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For me, a brand like MLP - which I apologise if it offends anyone - is about as girly girl a brand as you can get [outside Barbie :P] - and is fundamentally a "feminine toy" aimed at the market of little girls. Yes I know there are plenty of guys who like it and that's not only cool but [in many ways] awesome :). But if I collected Transformers I would be fully accepting of the fact I collected a "boys toy".
Most have the notion too and just kind of suck it up in day to day shopping but I do think its interesting to wonder, how did we get to this conclusion that is pretty prevalent? Some girls grow up to be engineers, robots could be a nice toy for them. Some boys grow up to look after and race horses, so ponies could be a nice toy for them. Same with boys who become chefs (cooking kit toys), fashion designers (dolls) etc. Girls who become wrestlers (action figures), racecar drivers (cars) etc. Some of those professions are still considered largely male or female dominated, so times are still slow to shift, but perhaps if toys had less of a divide those kinds of values could become more prevalent in future generations (it might be too late for this one).
There was a programme on BBC once, where they brought some Girls World toys (heads with hair for makeup and hair styling creativity) to a bunch of male hairdressers and let them have a go with them. If I remember right they said they would of loved it as a kid but would of been too embarassed and instead had to practise on other people if they'd be willing.
I think that as far as the current MLP TV show goes, its got more of a Pixar feel. In that it can be enjoyed by everyone and each person can find a character they relate to. Apparently Lauren Faust aimed for this too. A lot of Pixar toys are enjoyed by both genders. But I do agree though that the actual MLP products don't seem to of taken advantage of that approach in the way they are marketed or packaged, though the actual toys themselves are a variety of colours and so they could do something similar to Monster High packaging / marketing, which has quite a variety and doesn't seem to specifically target girls only. Though in shops in America they are put in the section with the walls painted pink because "fashion dolls" I guess. But as far as the manufacturing of them goes, they seem to of gained a male following and reading a thread with male collectors, they seem to say they feel they have been included from the start with the articulation and style (they could be wrong but that was the vibe, I don't collect Monster High so not familiar outside what I've looked up). I also think Sylvanian Families has a lot of variety, and in some adverts they show both a boy or a girl or like Monster High they just show hands.
I think we are reading too much into it being girls and boys - its divided that way for easy marketing.
Yeah but advertising has a long way to come really. I mean I was taught "sex sells" as part of Advertising. You know the typical "He/she wasn't popular with [opposite sex here] until they got this product" which has become a tired cliche and now advertisers are trying to think outside the box so as not to appear like everyone else. Also it'd be interesting to see if during the second world war, when the pink/blue divide was solidified, advertisers had a part in that since messages and imagery on posters and such became a big thing during that time period.
I think like "sex sells", "pink is for girls" has become a tired marketing cliche which is making the products merge on shelves, so marketers are going to have to start thinking outside the box, even on a purely sales basis.
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I find it difficult to agree to disagree on topics that plainly sideline and categorize others. The topic is, 'Well it's just like that' or 'It's not even a big deal' vs. 'This offends me' and in some cases 'This is the root of something that screwed me up when I was growing up.' I think there are males, females, and a million things in-between. But there are no essential Girls, Boys, Men and Women. That is a societal construct. :/ Which everybody just made up, and tries to shove every new person into. It's wrong and it's damaging. I find it frustrating to think anybody would advocate for keeping those little tiny "boxes you should fit in or you're a freak" around. How many people even fir the mould of the "essential" man or woman or boy or girl? Almost NO ONE fits the "ideal" which is just so stupid, so damaging. :/ But what I've read has been about 'Well it's just easier for ME to find toys that way' or 'Well those categories are true' or 'Who even cares.' I mean, isn't it more important that everyone feels comfortable, instead of someone being able to 'find toys easily'?
And hathorcat, the reason what you say about "target audience" rings true to you in society is because society is totally backwards and messed up, and basically buys into these categories. That's why your approach with your client works, because in this humiliating and damaging environment the majority of people don't even question any of this. They just buy into it because That's The Way It Is. When it actually doesn't HAVE to be like that at all, since society ya know created these dumb preconceptions, misconceptions and rules in the first place. But those things served the purpose of individuals who had power and privilege, and they still do, which is why they still exist.
Imagine how hard it is to openly take a stand about a system like this...? A behemoth that everyone just...buys into? Watchs on TV? Hears it from their parents? Reads it magazines? Sees it in movies? Had to follow it to get a job? Has to follow it to KEEP a job? Girls are like this! Boys are like this! Men are like this! Women are like this! Aspire to be the ideal man or woman like a "good" and "normal" person! Essential categories we all just made up when loads of men and women aren't even like this, and get to be harassed, tormented, disowned, ignored, bullied, etc. because they aren't! And when those people get "punished," other people who might feel like they do will hide themselves to get by.
It sounds crazy, but that gigantic system of fail starts with the smallest things, including how toy stores are set up, telling kids what their Group likes, based on what genitals they're born with. I mean, isn't that the dumbest thing you've ever heard? All these people in the world assuming they know how you're going to be from Day 1 if you're a "normal" boy or girl? And like I said...kids eat this stuff up...and they will BULLY the crap out of other kids for being "not normal." For someone to make the judgement on whether you're "normal" or not, there has to BE a standard of normalcy. And so often that is divided BY gender. Without even asking that person how they feel, or what kind of person they are.
So really...this is a problem...it's just one cog in a huge system of fail, and one thing changed might change other things eventually... Maybe some lucky kids assert themselves young AND their parents don't threaten to hit it out of them with a belt (not me!) ...but hey...we can't all be like them, can we. Some of us are shy little girls or boys, or shy folks who don't feel they are boys or girls, or boys that were supposed to be girls, or girls that were supposed to be boys, or folks who are both boys and girls. Why? Because "boys" and "girls" are limiting - all the people who don't toe the line are demeaned by being told: You're not even a boy, what's wrong with you! You're not even a girl, what's wrong with you! Those words should mean individual things to each person. Not a standard or rubric for people to judge how manly or womanly somebody is, and then decide how to hurt them if they're not manly or womanly enough. Don't forget that some people feel they are neither, or both, or the wrong one, and they still have to "PICK' one. And likely be mercilessly bullied for it at the end of the day.
It starts when you're small, and you go to the toy store, and school, and the playground. You can get punched in the face for what toy you've got in your backpack. You can have stuff thrown at you, be called slurred, be threatened with violence, etc., by your parents. People are saying: That happened to ME. And it just plays into the most basic things...so, go Harrod's.
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I have and still do work in marketing and advertising - and have done so for a decade - not only marketing but ambient advertising - no one thinks more outside of the box than we do so this is something I have not only an opinion on but a little experience in. The old adage of "sex sells" may sound a little 80s - but check out a perfume advert near you [heck check out any advert advertising something fashionable] and you ll see its still a pretty commonly [even if tired] used concept. As is the idea of "frilly and pink" for girls and "blue and butch" for boys.
To the outside it looks odd but unfortunately advertising does work best when targeted - and in a toy market you are not targeting 50% of those parents or kids in store - you are targeting 50% of a certain age group, in a certain social economic bracket - advertising depends on stereotypes for product focus because unfortunately stereotypes exist. Its about delivering a product to market for which there is a demand and an avenue - that avenue is established by reasoning that a large number of people [with something in common - be that age or sex or income] have a need or wish for that product. Something as simple as colour coded products - which I mentioned way back on my first post - is an element of this. Again - your milk cartons are coded in colours relevant to the products within arent they? So are toys. In western society in general pink = girl and blue = boy. It could be any other colour combo - yellow = girl, green = boy. Yes, there is a division but I think we are all debating different things.
I am not having a discussion on the concept of the world at large accepting gender neutrality or changing society's opinions on men/women and gender roles - thats something far too in depth for this particular pony forum and something I dont feel experienced enough to state fact upon, only offer my one person opinion. This thread is supposed to be a discussion about toy aisles [and now toy marketing] and thats what I am referring to in my comments.
This is why this thread is going around and around in opinion - I am not saying any of what I am typing is "right" in the grander scheme of the world or that people need to accept it or like it. I am simply commenting on how it works and why its there. I am not asking or expecting everyone to agree with me of course and likewise I dont expect to agree with everyone else but as I am acknowledging other peoples opinions and expertise.
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I am not saying any of what I am typing is "right" in the grander scheme of the world or that people need to accept it or like it.
Sorry if it seemed implied that I was saying you were :blush:
I think whilst some of the debate has gone in circles there have been compromises too. I mean we both agree some of those marketing cliches are considered tired even within the Marketing world. They're still used but I do think the adverts that branch out go more viral because people are like "Hey, this is something different". But there are areas of marketing that hasn't branched out yet, so the "tired cliche" is still the standard and become a bit of a blur that doesn't really stand out amongst the crowd, therefore it could be something worth more agencies experimenting with. Like with Mattel's new fashion doll range, where part of the appeal might be that it is something different on the shelves at a glance. They could of easily just done another pink packaged range and sold, but it seems the approach has gained a wider following.
Looking back at the MLP cartoon, Lauren Faust decided not to make a "show for girls" specifically but to first and foremost make a show with wide appeal. In marketing that could seem like a bad choice instead of just trying to appeal to a specific target that could be honed in on when it came to advertising the show to the general public. How do you market a show not just for girls but also for boys, men, women etc. and still get high sales? However the approach seems to of worked for Pixar etc. In MLP's case it seems to of worked too, Hub network make some interesting adverts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p50-oWY1pFE), the fanbase has grown and so has the potential profit-making.
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I wanted to add something about the idea that a change in the setup won't change anything.
You never know what will kick off a change--a change in the mind of one person, or a family, or all of society. When the United States was founded, the idea of women voting was unthinkable. "Everybody knew" women were irrational and couldn't (or shouldn't) make up their own minds. Before WWII, "everybody knew" women couldn't handle complex industrial jobs, like welding. In the 1950s, "everybody knew" that pants were For Men--only men!
Our society is not static, and it never was. So maybe Harrod's will stick with this policy, maybe they won't. Maybe it will make them more money, or maybe less. God help us when we decide what's right based on how much money it produces.
The point is just because now, today, "pink aisle and blue aisle" are considered normal today doesn't mean that they are inevitable or ideal.
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Yes FiM is a wide appeal..... But it's still aimed at kids, right? The show is not aimed at adult men. Sorry but its not. Theres nothing wrong in adult men or woman for that matter liking the show, Nothing at all. But thats not a huge target audience. Kids are the target of a kids cartoon. The same way that mlp toys are aimed at girls. It's the bigger market.
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Yes FiM is a wide appeal..... But it's still aimed at kids, right? The show is not aimed at adult men. Sorry but its not. Theres nothing wrong in adult men or woman for that matter liking the show, Nothing at all. But thats not a huge target audience. Kids are the target of a kids cartoon. The same way that mlp toys are aimed at girls. It's the bigger market.
If the show is aimed at kids in general, why not make the toys easier to access for both genders of kids? Since the show has such a wide appeal, it makes sense from a marketing standpoint to try to give the toys the same appeal. They'd probably sell more toys if they placed them in gender-neutral aisles. Adults aside, many boys are loathe to go into the "pink section." Why not try to widen the market by getting rid of that barrier?
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Yes FiM is a wide appeal..... But it's still aimed at kids, right?
It's aimed at kids as much as Pixar is really, both being animations that aim to offer references and concepts for the adults to catch onto too whilst watching (e.g. The Big Lebowski ponies). I think in the West, animation in general is often considered "just for kids", though I think that idea isn't as prevalent in other places. That's another topic though. :lol:
Kids are the target of a kids cartoon. The same way that mlp toys are aimed at girls.
They both involve multicoloured ponies. The show markets the toys just like the Monster High cartoons etc. market the toys, neither actually show toys but they're made so that people make an attachment and then recognise a likeness in stores. So if the cartoon is aimed at "kids in general", and gained a bigger market/audience for the effort, I think the toys could be defined that way too.
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I wanted to add something about the idea that a change in the setup won't change anything.
You never know what will kick off a change--a change in the mind of one person, or a family, or all of society. When the United States was founded, the idea of women voting was unthinkable. "Everybody knew" women were irrational and couldn't (or shouldn't) make up their own minds. Before WWII, "everybody knew" women couldn't handle complex industrial jobs, like welding. In the 1950s, "everybody knew" that pants were For Men--only men!
Our society is not static, and it never was. So maybe Harrod's will stick with this policy, maybe they won't. Maybe it will make them more money, or maybe less. God help us when we decide what's right based on how much money it produces.
The point is just because now, today, "pink aisle and blue aisle" are considered normal today doesn't mean that they are inevitable or ideal.
This is very insightful and very true. I am truely sorry that people have suffered so much as children in these ways. I am sad that the opinion of the kids and peers around them made them feel less of a person. I don't know why I did not go through that as a child. I was a very "girly" girl that loved playing sports and loved boy things along with my skirts, pink and hair bows. The boys and I got a long super great as I played better with them at times than the girls because the drama element was removed and we could just have good fun. I never had any child attack me because of this. My best friend in grade school would just patiently wait for me at the end of recess to finish a fine game of soccer with the boys. I had a horrible childhood and my self esteem was shattered by other things. I live with that damage today. The one thing I have learned though is that I have to make a decision for myself to be who I am and not let the opinions of others affect me. I think I had that strength as a child in this way from the very beginning. However, I had weaknesses in other areas that maybe some of you would find odd. I have watched a lot of changes take place around us. While I doubt a toy store will be the one move that will change the internal self esteem of a child, that doesn't mean I don't recognize that some have the issue. Sadly I do believe that the issue here is wherever the money is and the profits are to be made that is how things will be set up. No matter what people would like to see happen, I really do believe that things revolve around the advertising target. Companies will make the most money this way. I really do see though that there is an understanding in the advertising world that children with special needs and children with different cultures should be represented in ads. However, sometimes mistakes are still made in these areas on TV. Changes can always happen, but it really will depend on what the majority of people are willing to spend their money on. If the company sees that putting a MLP in a blue box decreases sales they will have meetings and change that. I don't think they are sitting there thinking, "how are we damaging the kids for life by doing this?" Those of us who are educators have spent a lot of time trying to help society understand that culture, gender roles and a child's needs have to be included in advertising in some way. I took a whole class on this in college and it was amazing how many advertisers were following this concept and equally amazing how many were not. We have a lot to consider and a lot to change and it is my hope that in the mean time a child will be empowered by the correct nurturing inside their home enviornment. Thats a perfect place to start, not the only place, but the right place to start. ;)
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Yes FiM is a wide appeal..... But it's still aimed at kids, right? The show is not aimed at adult men. Sorry but its not. Theres nothing wrong in adult men or woman for that matter liking the show, Nothing at all. But thats not a huge target audience. Kids are the target of a kids cartoon. The same way that mlp toys are aimed at girls. It's the bigger market.
And it is still aimed at girls in the first place. Making a decent cartoon for girls was the main goal of Faust. A show that showed different ways of being a girl. I don't like people who are trying to pretend that FIM is super "gender-neutral" or even "manly" (seeing this in the brony community a lot) as if the concept of a good "girly" show is unthinkable.
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There is a crossover influence that went into making the show.
I wasn't so much a Barbie girl, but Strawberry Shortcake and My Little Pony, I was obsessed with those. But my brothers were into Transformers and G.I. Joe. My older brother was a rabid comics collector. I was just as fascinated by that stuff and it was there for me to play with, I didn't have to go after it myself.
I've always looked at my work feeling like I was trying to make stuff for girls and then accidentally getting guys interested as well. I think that it was because of growing up with my brothers and being exposed to these more boy things -- boy shows or boy comic books -- stuff that's typically considered for boys, I think I might somehow be smooshing them together. I liked Strawberry Shortcake and My Little Pony, but I didn't like the shows or the books for them. I liked the shows and the books for the stuff my brother was into.
I wanted to see girl characters in what is considered these typical boy situations, saving the world or more kind of action adventure-y kind of stuff. I wanted to see Strawberry Shortcake doing that kind of stuff. They didn't do it that way.
[Continued on page]
http://blogs.laweekly.com/arts/2012/05/lauren_faust_cartoons_for_girl.php?page=2
(( Edited to add credit and such. ))
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I'd be more apt to believe Lauren Faust wanted FiM to have appeal to boys if she made those comments right when the show launched, and not after it's popularity.
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I'd be more apt to believe Lauren Faust wanted FiM to have appeal to boys if she made those comments right when the show launched, and not after it's popularity.
I don't think it's saying that it was 100% intentional, just that the crossover influence had been there as a child and an inner desire deepdown for the two worlds to mesh.
I think its apt for this thread though, a girl who was exposed to toys that are traditionally considered "boyish" (Transformers, GI Joe) or "girly" (Strawberry Shortcake, My Little Pony), then coming full circle to make a show that blends them resulting in a wider appeal to kids in general through those subconscious childhood influences. :lol:
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when i was a child, i loved MLP , rainbow brite , stuffed animals etc. but i hated barbie and dolls and other typicall girly toys such as cleaning/cooking like toys. But i also loved robots, dinosaurs , teenage mutant ninja turles and boyish toys!
But i hardly got any because "it was for boys" and it annoyed me for a long time. luckily aside from my female friends i had a brother and also a male friend , wich made it possible for me to borrow their toys to play with.
I remember me borrowing my brothers robot that went on batteries and went around "shooting lazors" etc =P, and hiding under the bed with my ponies, pretending i was being chased by an eeeevil robot that i had to hide and not get seen by!
Lol i remember this boy i used to play with, we used to take turns in what we'd play with, one day we'd go to my house and play with ponies (he played too!), and the other day we went outside playing with small metal-cars and built citys/roads etc. also we collected pogs (small round play cards 'ish) and micro machines, oh how i loved these toys!
Its actually kind of cute when i think of it now afterwards =) how we switched play-theme different days. i actually have contact with this old friend as of today! (im 24).
lovely memories!
My parents had no problem with me loving boy toys (and also tv series etc), and thats nice! even if i didnt get boy toys for my birthday etc.
I also remember toy sections being less separated in the 80's, what happend? =/
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My mom was a pretty big adherent of pink aisle for girls, blue aisle for boys. I sometimes tell her it was frustration over her refusing to let me play with ninja turtle toys that I grew up to be transgender.
Not that I minded the ponies much, ponies are obvs awesome. I just... I liked Donatello too. I might have stood a better chance if they hadn't been separated into very clear 'LINE DIVIDE'.
As it is, when I was in target a few weeks ago the toy aisle had something along the lines of BOYS TOYS on a sign where all the star wars and pokemon was located, and I was all :|
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There is a crossover influence that went into making the show.
I wasn't so much a Barbie girl, but Strawberry Shortcake and My Little Pony, I was obsessed with those. But my brothers were into Transformers and G.I. Joe. My older brother was a rabid comics collector. I was just as fascinated by that stuff and it was there for me to play with, I didn't have to go after it myself.
I've always looked at my work feeling like I was trying to make stuff for girls and then accidentally getting guys interested as well. I think that it was because of growing up with my brothers and being exposed to these more boy things -- boy shows or boy comic books -- stuff that's typically considered for boys, I think I might somehow be smooshing them together. I liked Strawberry Shortcake and My Little Pony, but I didn't like the shows or the books for them. I liked the shows and the books for the stuff my brother was into.
I wanted to see girl characters in what is considered these typical boy situations, saving the world or more kind of action adventure-y kind of stuff. I wanted to see Strawberry Shortcake doing that kind of stuff. They didn't do it that way.
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http://blogs.laweekly.com/arts/2012/05/lauren_faust_cartoons_for_girl.php?page=2
(( Edited to add credit and such. ))
I have seen that before and i still think there is something wierd about all of that.
She says she disliked the old show yet half of the FIM main cast is based on characters from the old show (Firefly, Surprise and Posey). Not just the design but the personality too.
Than she says she "wanted to see girl characters in what is considered these typical boy situations, saving the world or more kind of action adventure-y kind of stuff". But that stuff happened all the time in the old show. The stories had a lot of adventure and fantasy to them. I think almost just as much as in the shows aimed at boys. She was a fan of Firefly so she must have seen "Firefly's Adventure". That special was pretty dark.
So i find it kinda iffy that Faust is acting as if everything MLP related was really "frilly" untill she came around...
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She does say she was still obssessed with My Little Pony etc. either way. Maybe her interest in the show itself gradually waned as it went on to other iterations. She does mainly specify Strawberry Shortcake at the end too but can't say I've seen that show. Candid interviews can sometimes wash over intricacies, but I do still find it apt, the specification of Transformers etc. She did also of course do animation work on a action drama film about a giant robot, so these kind of things bleed into each other with influences. So it would be cool if someday robots and such weren't considered "for boys" or ponies "for girls" etc.