The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: Al-1701 on May 22, 2012, 07:15:40 PM
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After seeing the arguments about the plush maker getting a C&D from Hasbro, I had a crazy idea.
As you know, Hasbro no longer has rights to most G1 ponies, the exceptions being ponies who have G3 counterparts (like Applejack and Moondancer.)
G1 ponies fell prey to what is known as trademark dilution. This is when others use your trademark for commercial purposes without your permission and you don't defend your exclusivity to it. In this case, when Disney bought out Marvel Productions and started using ponies for their own purposes, Hasbro not saying anything cost them the claim of trademark (this is my guess.) There are also other MLP licenses floating around.
Anyway, since these trademarks no longer exist, I thought of this. What if fans banded together to form an entity to claim the old ponies as their trademarks, perhaps adding a title to the pony name like "Gusty the unicorn pony" as an example, then they sell the trademark to Hasbro for a low price? Believe it or, this would be be legal.
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I would give that trademark to Hasbro for free if it meant seeing a real G4 Gusty :P
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Honestly, I don't believe they lost the rights to the ponies at all. It makes zero sense that they would lose everyone except Spike (right down to his exact G1 design) and Applejack.
Also, they are licensing shirts with G1 Sundance, Firefly, Gusty, and other on them even as we speak, they released the Collector ponies and Rainbow ponies retro sets not long ago, and the Dolly Mix ponies also had a wide range of G1s.
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engenius
LOL!
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I am curious to know if there is a way to search the US trademark database and see exactly "who owns what". I wonder about some of Hasbros Transformer characters too (e.g. "Autobot" Ratchet). does anyone know of that is possible?
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Honestly, I don't believe they lost the rights to the ponies at all. It makes zero sense that they would lose everyone except Spike (right down to his exact G1 design) and Applejack.
Also, they are licensing shirts with G1 Sundance, Firefly, Gusty, and other on them even as we speak, they released the Collector ponies and Rainbow ponies retro sets not long ago, and the Dolly Mix ponies also had a wide range of G1s.
I agree. They probably just didn't want to use most of the G1 characters in FiM but are willing to use them to make money off the 80's-90's era fans.
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As you know, Hasbro no longer has rights to most G1 ponies, the exceptions being ponies who have G3 counterparts (like Applejack and Moondancer.)
G1 ponies fell prey to what is known as trademark dilution. This is when others use your trademark for commercial purposes without your permission and you don't defend your exclusivity to it. In this case, when Disney bought out Marvel Productions and started using ponies for their own purposes, Hasbro not saying anything cost them the claim of trademark (this is my guess.) There are also other MLP licenses floating around.
Do we know this for a fact though? If it was the case, I'd be so aboard your idea, but I think it's more likely that hasbro just don't want to use the G1 designs.
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Honestly, I don't believe they lost the rights to the ponies at all. It makes zero sense that they would lose everyone except Spike (right down to his exact G1 design) and Applejack.
Also, they are licensing shirts with G1 Sundance, Firefly, Gusty, and other on them even as we speak, they released the Collector ponies and Rainbow ponies retro sets not long ago, and the Dolly Mix ponies also had a wide range of G1s.
Yes I ll agree with LadyM on this one...the shirts we are seeing available at the moment are from actual Hasbro vectors [we saw these at one of the past MLP Fairs - the style had been created by HB staff] and the shirts are licenced [much as welovefine has licenses for FiM] therefore I am going to continue to be "doubtful" that there wouldnt be some major issues with such a theory!
No harm in putting it out there though...
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Honestly, I don't believe they lost the rights to the ponies at all. It makes zero sense that they would lose everyone except Spike (right down to his exact G1 design) and Applejack.
Also, they are licensing shirts with G1 Sundance, Firefly, Gusty, and other on them even as we speak, they released the Collector ponies and Rainbow ponies retro sets not long ago, and the Dolly Mix ponies also had a wide range of G1s.
I agree with this.
I find it strange that they claim to have no rights over the G1 ponies even though they're still marketing them by putting them on shirts. I just bought a Firefly one from Walmart a couple months ago :huh:
It does make me wonder why they don't start re-releasing G1 ponies as G4 but I guess we'll never know probably...
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If they have the trademarks, then there wouldn't be a point. However, I can't imagine why they wouldn't want use them. They have them, they have to defend them. Little girls would buy them because they're ponies and older fans would love them. It just doesn't make sense.
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If they have the trademarks, then there wouldn't be a point. However, I can't imagine why they wouldn't want use them. They have them, they have to defend them. Little girls would buy them because they're ponies and older fans would love them. It just doesn't make sense.
Yes, but they have "more" invested and more need to defend probably the G3 line - characters like Rainbow Dash, Cheerilee, Sweetie Belle and even into the Blind Bags of Coconut Creme et all are characters that their core "little girl" market may still remember...I think the line has shown we are more likely to see G3 versions of ponies than G1...AJ being the glaring contradiction to this though.
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When it comes to releasing stuff with certain ponies - that is not a problem. After all, the design of these ponies has been trademarked by Hasbro - they own the rights to produce the said ponies and merchandise.
The problem lies within naming these ponies - like it's been said many times, Hasbro has lost the right to name certain ponies. Many of them are either claimed by someone else, or are far too common and generic to be trademarked. Hasbro might eventually re-release them with certain "attachments" to their names, but it's all up to them
I am curious to know if there is a way to search the US trademark database and see exactly "who owns what". I wonder about some of Hasbros Transformer characters too (e.g. "Autobot" Ratchet). does anyone know of that is possible?
I think it's quite a challenge but you can give it a try. As for Transformers I think I might answer your question: the name Ratchet, has been taken by several characters outside of the Transformers franchise. First we have Ratchet from "Ratchet and Clank" and Ratchet the robot character from a movie "Robots".
And then "Ratchet" is a name of a certain mechanical device that's used in several machines including clocks, roller coasters and hoists.
Hasbro still has the right to produce the character, as long as it (I'm talking about the character here) has the prefix "Autobot" attached to it's name, to avoid any lawsuits.
However, unlike with ponies, the problem with re-releasing certain Transformers characters is not only associated with names. While many of the original G1 characters, still have their own toy molds, many other molds ended up being either destroyed, missing, damaged beyond repair, or stolen by a third party company to produce knock-offs. Among those are Mirage, Sunstreaker, Wheeljack and all of the Dinobots. :(
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Even AJ has a G3 counterpart.
What about the original series? Hasbro hasn't licensed Shout!Factory to make DVD's of it or put it up for instant access on Netflix like their other original cartoons.
If it's a case of they just don't want to use it, they're costing themselves money to be had.
Hasbro side stepped the naming issue by putting "My Little Pony" in front of their name.
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Just in my opinion, I dont think they are costing themselves money...as collectors we are a very small element of their market - I am sure they will make more by keeping recently in the mind ponies on shelves than ponies from 30 years ago. Mind you I ll be first in line for ANY G4-G1 nod! Likewise clearly HB currently see more money in making "show accurate" ponies for collectors than for making G4 incarnations of older ponies.
No one is denying that we as collectors would snap up a G4 Bow Tie or G4 Fizzy...but to little girls and their mums [who arent collectors or dont have particular memories of the ponies they had as kids] a G4 Bow Tie is much the same as a G4 Star Swirl...
The G1 movie and show were, and probably still are, on license to Rhino Studios since back in 03-04. I do agree though that the lack of the original show appearing on Netflix when so many G1 cartoon incarnations are now getting green lit on the site is disappointing but I would guess it may be down to their original license with Rhino still being in place. Thats speculation though.
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I was talking more about the show than the toys in terms of money to be made. I bet a DVD of the original, uncut specials would attract enough buyers to be profitable. Netflix would be an even better win for them.
I'm not sure how the license issue works. Hasbro supposedly bought the Sunbow library back in 08. You would think that would include ponies.
I was wondering, speaking of the retro sets, have anymore come out recently? I know they released the original six and the first set of Rainbow Ponies a couple years back.
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They did a DVD release - it was sometime between 04 and 06 I cant for the life of me remember when exactly - whether it was a success or not I honestly dont know but they still turn up in random places for sale. Yes, I believe the Sunbow buy out when Sunbow was being amalgamated into Sony did leave HB to claim they had the rights back to anything inspired by their line...but that doesnt mean licenses for distribution were not still in place - so HB could have all the rights to the product and the show but a licensing/distribution contract may have simply transferred along with it. There must be a reason why they have not added it to the Netflix line up - or maybe Netflix just didnt want to buy it and felt their target market was more suited to Transformers/GI Joe earlier options.
No - the 2 sets of retro are all we have had.
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This is one of the reasons I want to get into Hasbro. I want to know these things. If nothing else, it would be absolution.
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Yes, they released the first season of G1 as a boxed set around 2004, then gradually produced all of season 2 on several individual DVDs. (They did cover all the episodes, though.) They also produced the movie on DVD a couple times.
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If you look at G1 back cards, none of the names, like "Gusty" or "Moondancer" or "Firefly" have Registered Trademarks. A registered trademark is an "R" with a circle around it. They only have "TM", which means they are unofficially claiming it until contested.
My theory is that Hasbro NEVER DID have registered trademarks for their pony names in G1!!!!! So as other companies came along, they registered these names for their own non pony stuff.
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I would give that trademark to Hasbro for free if it meant seeing a real G4 Gusty :P
Yes!!!!!! ME TOO! But... she might have those horrible unicorn eyes. :O
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If you look at G1 back cards, none of the names, like "Gusty" or "Moondancer" or "Firefly" have Registered Trademarks. A registered trademark is an "R" with a circle around it. They only have "TM", which means they are unofficially claiming it until contested.
My theory is that Hasbro NEVER DID have registered trademarks for their pony names in G1!!!!! So as other companies came along, they registered these names for their own non pony stuff.
Hmm, that's interesting, I never knew the difference between (R) and (tm)! But... I just looked at my Rainbow Dash toy backcard and it says Rainbow Dash(tm). o.0
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Ya! weird. This site:
http://www.trademarkia.com/rainbow-dash-76448437.html
(which is eaiser to use than that govs) says they have a registration for Rainbow Dash?
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Yes gabumon is right...essentially a TM mark means nothing. It has no legal standing and is merely an indication that the company using it considers the service/company/product/item/image it is beside as something unique enough that it should be distinguished them from similar products.
The (R) symbol indicates that the mark is registered.
Basically you can add TM to whatever you like without having to register it - almost as a warding off and a warning. Whereas you cannot use (R) unless you have registered but you can, even if you do have (R) trademark, simply continue to use the TM.
Therefore RD has a (R) but clearly HB continue to use the TM mark.
Many trademark owners still choose to use the TM despite having a (R) registered mark. This is usually for one main reason - perception amongst the average consumer is that the TM symbol means a registered trademark and therefore it holds more weight than a (R) the meaning of which is far less known. Silly but true!
A good example people give is the telecommunications company Orange in the UK - type "Orange logo" into Google image search and you ll see their logo with the TM symbol...however this is in fact a (R) trademark...Orange once claimed the reason for the difference was that TM "looks" better with their logo than (R).
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Then that would suggest my initial theory is right. In order to use G1's, they would have to start the trademarking process from scratch. They would have to apply for registration, make sure their trademark was distinct from other uses of the terms (this would be as simple as adding "My Little Pony" to the beginning like they in the 80's, but still rather expensive because of all the legal maneuvering.) It's more expensive than mutating their registered trademarks.
However, if the t-shirts are any indications, they might be slowly registering their G1 names.
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But the other part of your idea, registration by fans, would probably not hold up in court because the fans aren't producing toys ..i.e. "using" the names in the marketplace, but maybe the companies that *do* have those names registered *are* producing things in the market place with those names.
(I think it works differently than, say, for example domain names.)
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Personally I still dont believe they have "lost the trademarks" - we are probably just using the wrong terms to discuss this. :P
If they don't/didn't have a registered trademark for the name, it doesnt mean they wouldnt be able to defend their right to the name...yes, legally the automatic right comes from the name having been in continual commercial use...but it would be possible for a giant corporation to claim their sovreinty to the trademark if it is a product/name which historically is associated with them in some way.
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I have to admit, the more I read about this trademark business the less sense I can make of it! Just looking at a few bits and pieces of merchandise and the H&M retro hairclips say this: "HASBRO and its logo, MY LITTLE PONY and all related characters are trademarks of Hasbro and are used with permission", which seems a tad vague, and I couldn't see a trademark notice at all on the dollymix packs, just the copyright and 'used with permission' notice.
Anyway, I think we have to believe that whatever Hasbro owns or doesn't they'll have a legal team all over it making sure they aren't losing any money.
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Anyway, I think we have to believe that whatever Hasbro owns or doesn't they'll have a legal team all over it making sure they aren't losing any money.
So true! Lol - guess they are not a multinational company for nothing?!
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But the other part of your idea, registration by fans, would probably not hold up in court because the fans aren't producing toys ..i.e. "using" the names in the marketplace, but maybe the companies that *do* have those names registered *are* producing things in the market place with those names.
(I think it works differently than, say, for example domain names.)
We just have to prove we intend to use the trademarks for a commercial purpose within six months (e.g. sell them) and prove their suitable distinct from other trademarks. Because these are generic use terms, simply slapping their pony species to it would be enough. I've actually been studying this in business law. Unfortunately, the former means we couldn't just give Hasbro the names. They would have to buy them, even if it's just for a penny.
But, that's all assuming Hasbro doesn't already own the trademark.
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I just don't see how they could've produced the retro Collector pony and Rainbow pony sets if they didn't still own the full rights to those characters.
And if they own the rights to those characters, I have to believe they would own the rights to all the other G1 characters--because the Collector ponies were their oldest MLP characters, so otherwise the copyright or trademark or whatever should have run out on them first.
Could someone who owns the retro Collector pony / Rainbow pony sets take a look at the back of the box? I'm squinting at online images, but I THINK it says "All rights reserved" in the lower corner.
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I just don't see how they could've produced the retro Collector pony and Rainbow pony sets if they didn't still own the full rights to those characters.
And if they own the rights to those characters, I have to believe they would own the rights to all the other G1 characters--because the Collector ponies were their oldest MLP characters, so otherwise the copyright or trademark or whatever should have run out on them first.
Could someone who owns the retro Collector pony / Rainbow pony sets take a look at the back of the box? I'm squinting at online images, but I THINK it says "All rights reserved" in the lower corner.
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I can't speak for the Rainbow ponies, but the retro re-releases say in the lower left hand corner:
(C) 2006, Hasbro, Pawtucket, RI 02862 USA. All rights reserved. TM & (R) denote US Trademarks.
The names of the ponies (Snuzzle, Blue Belle, etc) however have neither a (C) or a (TM) appearing next to them.
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I think all rights reserved is meant as an exhaustive. They own everything, the designs, the artwork, the logo, and the names. It saves ink.
EDIT: Looking at the old cards, they don't have all rights reserved. They just have "TM" by all the names.
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Those backcards always make me giggle [impolitely]..."Hey Windy...30 years and a few too many sugar cubes me thinks!"
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I've seen complaints how the retro sets were a little more chunky than the originals.
It's too bad they didn't make retro sets of say the Twinkle Eyed and Movie Star ponies. I would have bought them.
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Its not so much the ponies - although they look odd enough as they are...its the artwork! Mind you I am appreciative of the attempt of G1!
I often wondered why they did the Rainbow set - AJ, Bow Tie, Firefly, etc would have been a more obvious set but hey the HB powers that be must have had a reason!
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This thread is so awesome, it raises so many questions for thought!
I never would have thought companies would use (tm) rather than (R) just because (tm) is more recognizable to the public! XD Oh, how we work in strange ways sometimes!
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Here is my understanding/theory of the trademarks:
Hasbro DID copyright the original MLP's, but there are different types of trademarks and patent copyrights based on what you plan to do with a concept or name or whatever. This is where Hasbro presumably did not foresee 30 years into the future and think that they might want full media copyrights with exclusive rights for all of the old MLP's. They only registered them for a few specific ponies like Applejack. Now that so much time has gone by, they are not able to register those copyrights now that they want them, I guess there must be a deadline that lapsed. So that's partly why Hasbro can't use most of the G1's as real characters now; they wouldn't be able to have stringent patents attached to them.
Here is an answer I found about two of the types of patents:
"The R-in-a-circle means that the trademark is registered with the United States Patent & Trademark Office. That involves filing an application with a fee, and establishing that the owner is entitled to exclusive use of the mark in connection with particular goods and services. One may not use the R-in-a-circle sign without a registration.
A "TM" designation just means that the user of the trademark asserts that the word, phrase, design, or whatever it is, is a trademark owned by the user. Anyone can assert that anything is their trademark, but that does not necessarily mean that the user has exclusive rights. Federal and state trademark law protects many unregistered trademarks from confusion. But, an unregistered trademark is not subject to the same presumptions and legal protections and a registered trademark."
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They could get registered trademarks, but they would have to start from scratch which can get expensive when you have hundreds of ponies to worry about. Applejack is registered because there was a G3 Applejack (which looks like Big Macintosh.) I have to wonder if they're registering them slowly as we see more G1 products trickle in.
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I was searching the data base the other night for the data base thread. The only G1 items that were listed at "Dead" were Dream Castle, Show Stable, and The Water Fall. Which means they might still hold the rights to the other characters. However I did not find any G1 names on the "Live" list either...
This is what I found:
Old names but still live:
Amberlocks
Rainbow Flash
Star Swirl
Daisy Jo
Sunny Daze
Apple Jack
Cup Cake
Scootaloo
Sweet Belle
Star Song
Heart Bright
Star Flight
Sew and So
Cheerilee
Rarity The Unicorn
Crystal Princess
Brights Brightly
Baby Alive
Rainbow Swirl
Frilly Frocks
Rainbow Wishes
Breezie
Coconut Cream
Desert Rose
Sky Wishes
Toola Roola
Sweet Breeze
Cinnamon Breeze
Golden Delicious
Flippity Flop
Island Rainbow
Strawberry Reef
Gardenia Glow
June Bug
Beach Berry
Shenanigans
Sapphire Shores
Peachy Pie
Ribbon Wishes
Strawberry Swirl
Fluttershy
MLP
Ponyville
Rainbow Dash
Pinkie Pie
Dead Marks:
Apple Jack (I am assuming it's the g3 version!)
Rainbow Falls
Rainbow Meadows
Daisy Meadows
Cherry Blossom
Baby Sundance
Breezie Dreams
Crystal Rainbow Castle
Spike The Dragon
Whistle Wishes
Silver Glow
Zipzee
Tiddly Wink
Tra La La
Royal Bouquet
Tulip Twinkle
Green Apple
Bon Apetite
Bumble Berry
Dainty Daisy
Lulabelle
Misty Mornings
Tripsy Daisy
Peachie Keen
Dibble Dabble
Wing Wishes
Light Heart
Dream Blue
Sundance
Wild Blue
Scootin Along
Tropical Surprise
Whistle Toe
Island Surprise
Island Delight
Desert Palm
Cloud Climber
Cactus Flower
Sharing Tea
Sea Scape
Sand Dollar
Sweet Reflections
Grand Finale
Round N Round
Musical Wishes
Tangerine Sunset
Lolligiggle
Beach Comber
Ice Dancing
Pudding Pie
Picnicity
Paradise Palms
Lavender Lake
Skip To My Lou
Bright Night
Fair Weather
Apple Spice
Twilight Twinkle
Always & Forever
Darling Dahlia
Sky Dancer
Bunches O Fun
Citrus Sweetheart
Coconut Grove
Alphabittle
Merriweather
Bow Tie
Magic Marigold
Silver Lining
Silly Sunshine
Denim Blue
Desert Blossom
Rose Blossom
Pick A Lily
Marshmallow Coco
Cloud Puff
Romerrooni
Smitten
Sparkle Snap
Abra Cadabra
Wind Drifter
Pretty Powder
Glitter Glide
Spring Breeze
Triple Treat
Wind Wisher
Sunny Salsa
Coconut Kisses
Scooter Sprite
Snow El
Honey Dew
Porto Bella
Lickety Split
La Di Da
Mistle Toe
Flutter Butter
Kiwi Tart
Sea Spray
Serendipity
Rainbow Sherbet
Song Star
Waterfire
Tropical Magic
Wish Catcher
Winter Berry
Wishy Wings
Tropical Delight
Sunshimmer
Valenshy
Wing Wisher
Wondermint
Star Dasher
Starbeam
Heather Winds
Angel Dove
Silver Slippers
Cabana Rain
Blushing Blue
Butterfly Surprise
Ringlette
Dazzle My Magical Talking Pony - 1994
I stopped at page like 45...Sorry!