The MLP Arena
TCB => Trader & Shipping Support => Topic started by: cloud_weaver on April 26, 2012, 12:07:45 PM
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Hi all! I'm super distressed at the moment. As many of you know, I recently sold my Thailand Ice Crystal to a buyer on ebay. I mentioned in the auction that I would cover all shipping fees as I wanted to ensure that he made it safely to his new home.
The buyer was from The Netherlands and when I went to ship him via DHL they said it would be $90 to ship him. :shocked: So I went to the USPS by DHL's recommendation and talked to the man at the office as to what was the best and safest way to post him. The man said that regular postage w/o insurance (non-priority) would be $10. I told him I needed the item to be insured and the best way to get him to his destination insured was express priority for $45. So I choked back the fee and paid the shipping charges, thinking that he would be there in about 5 days.
Well, it's been just over a week, and I just got the following message from the buyer (who's been very lovely BTW!):
Hi Melinda,
When I came home today I expected Ice Crystal already, but instead I got a message from the mailcompany that he would come back tomorrow, because I had to pay him cash on delivery... I was very shocked about the huge amount that I'll have to pay: 123 euro or 162,55 dollar!!!!!! O_O Why didn't you inform me about this?!? That's a LOT of money!!! The pony was expensive enough already... :S Thought shippingcosts (and insurance) were part of the deal.
Hope to hear from you soon!!!
What in the world is this about??? I've already paid the postage fees on him, and have no idea why the post office would charge her an addition $165 !? I'm super stressed...what is going on??? Help please!!!!!
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It sounds like his value ended up costing a pretty brutal customs fee. I've never seen a fee that high, though. :shocked:
I hope someone else can shed some light on this issue, it seems like WAY too much to be paying..
EDIT: Went through my PMs and found a message from someone who was buying things in the UK and ended up with a little over £100 in customs fees. I guess they can be pretty brutal, huh? I really have no idea what to suggest you do here.. Either one of you having to pay over $165 seems so unfair. :(
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It sounds like his value ended up costing a pretty brutal customs fee. I've never seen a fee that high, though. :shocked:
I hope someone else can shed some light on this issue, it seems like WAY too much to be paying..
EDIT: Went through my PMs and found a message from someone who was buying things in the UK and ended up with a little over £100 in customs fees. I guess they can be pretty brutal, huh? I really have no idea what to suggest you do here.. Either one of you having to pay over $165 seems so unfair. :(
Yes, I just got off the phone w/the post office and they said if the postage was paid prior to shipping then it must have been customs fees. And honestly I had no idea the buyer would be charged customs fees - seriously $165?! I can't even wrap my mind around that. I have no idea what to do...I feel like crying right now, I feel horrible for her and really don't know what to do. I don't know how it came out to $165!!! Is it because I insured it for so much???? Oh boy...I really don't know what to do........ If I would have known shipping would come out to over $200 I never would have sold him overseas. =/ But there was no way to know.
Advice please!!! I've never had to deal with customs fees and don't know what the proper proceedure is on them.
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The buyer is responsible for all customs fees. If you claimed his actual value (which you should have, to cover yourself, that's a pricey pony) then it's not surprising he has fees. They cannot blame you for customs fees, and can't leave you negative feedback just for that (I think ebay is actually changing their policy on this, making it easier to remove negatives left for this) They probably should've known there were fees. They can choose not to pay the fees, but he'll be returned to you. That's all I know tho, hope that helps.
Edit: info on the customs thing. Ebay should have had a message saying there may be fees:
Global protection: Earlier this year, eBay started displaying an automatic message on the View Item page to buyers outside the US regarding customs-related delays and customs duties. Because of this, any Feedback from international buyers that only references customs issues will qualify forFeedback removal.
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Wow that is one high fee!!!! I also life in the Netherlands. The fee overhere can indeed be very brutal!
But I find it so weird. Afterall it is second hand why do you have to pay fee it is not like they mist money because it came from another country. It wasn't even sold here this pony!
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First and foremost all packages sent abroad are subject to custom charges especially of that value. There is nothing you could of done to prevent this. No matter what shipping method you used. It is her responsibility as a buyer to know this.
If she refuses to pay the package will be sent back to you. Which leaves you the choice of trying to send it again at a lesser value(which I don't recommend unless you know this person) or just returning her money and relisting the pony.
Cloud_Weaver in terms of feedback, did you state in your auction listing that the buyer is responsible for all taxes and fee's? If so ebay will remove negative feedback if it is left.
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Hope this all works out, but I am always shocked that people don't know about customs fees when they import something! :(
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Yes, I agree with everyone else. You did the correct thing in declaring his full value, because if he had gotten lost you would have only gotten insurance money for the declared value. Besides, you have to declare the value of the item even if it's not insured. The buyer should have known that her country has customs import fees, and that's something you had no control over, nor should you be expected to know what percentage of an item's value will be charged in import fees for a particular country. Yes the fees sound crazy, but they were calculated based on the actual price she paid for the pony, and unfortunately that's the cost of buying expensive things from other countries if you live in The Netherlands.
You said you'd pay shipping fees. A customs charge is not a shipping fee. It's an import tax, to be paid by the person importing it (the buyer).
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I wouldn't expect customs fees to be part of shipping fees.. You paid the cost to ship it to her.. It's her responsibility to pay the customs fees for importing.
A polite offer to refund when the pony returns to you would seem in order, or she can pay the customs fees.
You only offered to pay shipping right? Your exact wording on that could be important..
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Yep, i live in the Netherlands & i bumped into this too, not too long ago (although the fee was alot less, thank God).
When it happened to me, i just PMed the seller, but she had no idea (like you) about those custom fees. It's not your fault, you did not know. In my situation i paid the custom fees because i knew it was not the sellers fault. I can see the person who bought this pony is shocked about the fees, but you, living outside Netherlands, could not possibly have known about shipping fees over here.
I hope this end well!
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ZOMG!!! I was so afraid of something like this happening to you on this auction, C_W!!! What a major pita!! I am so sorry to hear about this. :hug: :hug: :hug: What nightmare for you! ... More :hug: s..
Okay, firstly, I have to stress the fact that customs fees ARE NOT shipping fees! They pertain to the country of residence and you have absolutely NO obligation to pay them having stated that you would pay shipping costs. You had no control over who your winning bidder would be and the buyer should have been fully aware of the fees that would be due in customs!
Considering that this auction did not go as high as I personally expected/ hoped, were I in your position I would state, as nicely as possible and with many apologies, that customs fees are not shipping fees and that if she is not happy paying them that I would offer her a full refund on Thai Icey upon his arrival back home. It's really the only choice that you have unless you are willing to fork up those fees!
Ugh, ugh, ugh! :shocked: :mad: :cry:
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Unfortunately, the custom fees around here can indeed get pretty insane.
Depending on the price of the item being send, it can end up being 1/6th of the value of the item or something I believe.
(I'd have to check the exact percentages again, it's been a while. >>)
It's not your fault this happened, the buyer should have checked this before she bought anything from outside the country.
I can imagine it taking her by surprise and I do feel for her, our custom fees seem pretty darn ridiculous to me at times, but in the end it's not your fault at all.
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That sucks for both of you! I agree with everyone else that it's not your place to cover those charges. They should have known that the customs would be wild for something worth so much money. In any case, since you paid the shipping for her when you didn't have to, it's still only fair for them to cover the customs charges since they didn't have to pay shipping. That is such a bummer for them though :( It's a good thing the pony is so worth it. I hope they'll be able to pay so they can keep it, and you know they'll take good care of it after all that lol!
The worst I've had to deal with is randomly being charged 85 cents for a pony on delivery, lol. If I saw that fee, I would probably faint :faint:
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I don't live in the Netherlands but in the EU. If you receive something here from outside the EU there can be fees, especially if it's marked as a purchase and it's expensive. A certain percentage of the shipping costs, the value of the item and the insurance are included in the fees, plus there's a fixed fee for administration. Not the same country but the EU, just to give you an idea as to why it got so expensive. I think the package will be sent back to you if the buyer doesn't pay the custom fees.
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Oh hun! how awful for you and your buyer! :( :sad: :cry: Unfortunately I have had this situation many times as a buyer and had to pay very high customs fees, but thats all part of buying valuable items from outside of Europe/UK for me and other Euro pony peeps. Your buyer should not be surprised that she would be going to get some customs fees (even if the actual amount was a real shocker) . You did the right thing declaring the real value for him , and the customs fees are not your responsibility! they are something completely different from shipping fees. Please dont feel bad! this isnt your fault :hug: I know its disappointing and shocking for her too, but she cant expect you to pay those fees and she shouldnt be able to give you a neg due to this because ebay states that the customs fees are not the sellers responsibiilty.
Considering that this auction did not go as high as I personally expected/ hoped, were I in your position I would state, as nicely as possible and with many apologies, that customs fees are not shipping fees and that if she is not happy paying them that I would offer her a full refund on Thai Icey upon his arrival back home. It's really the only choice that you have unless you are willing to fork up those fees!
I completely agree with Cherry ^^ the only thing you can do is to let her know you are sorry to hear what happened, explain about the customs fees and see if she will still want him. If she doesnt want to pay the fees then offer to refund her once the pony is returned to you (he will be sent back to you if she doesnt pay the fees)
:hug: this is such a stressful situation to deal with! I hope that your buyer is understanding
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You got really good answers here.
As someone living in the country where customs officers are demons themselves, I can confirm all that's said above :(
I understand her shock if she isn't an experienced shopper but I would still expect her to sit down and think about what it could be before sending you such a distressful mail ^^
It is true that if she is not prepared to pay the fees (which is quite understandable!) the pony will simply be returned to you. alternatively, she can go to the customs office (something svarta-perlan and me know a thing or two about :P yay Iceland) and try to somehow convince them to release the pony with no charges.
Now, if you two are interested in basically cheating the customs (something I rarely feel bad about) I could give you a few tips, although I don't know how things are in the Netherlands exactly (but your buyer can find that out easily). If you are both prepared to battle this, you could try to write a statement that this pony was intended as a gift or something along those lines (she would have to read the rules for gifts) and try to get them to lower the fee drastically. It´s worth a try, if you don't mind those sorts of things, especially if you are willing to vouch for it. I´ve had my trading partners here send statements that ponies were intended as gifts rather than purchases to avoid all this. Just LMK if you need more help in that ^^
Bottom line, this really is completely her problem now :( but I do feel for her. Most you can do is either help her to convince the customs to release the pony or to take it back and refund her ^^ I really don't think you should be paying anything on top of what you´ve already paid 8which was really kind of you).
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Thank you all so much for the help and advice. *sigh* I got the message literally 20 minutes before I was leaving town for a family reunion. :faint: What timing!!!
With that being said, I had a lot of time to think about it in the car and I'm still scratching my head over it. Would it have made a difference if I would have sent him as a gift? (Honestly, I don't remember which box I checked, and paperwork is at home currently.) We've never had to deal with it in the US. Hugs to all you out there who battle with this!
I've be talking with the buyer, who's calmed down a bit and she's going to call the post tomorrow and see what can be done or explained. I haven't decided what to do as options yet, as I feel absolutely horrible for her.
I just want you all to know what an amazing community we have here. Thanks for all the support!!! :hug:
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Sorry to hear you're struggling, Cloudie!
I completely agree with everyone else - this is a customs charge, and has nothing to do with the shipping.
To answer your newest question, no it would not have made a difference if it had been sent as a gift (I don't think). It has to do with the value. I believe the only way to have avoided the customs charge would have been to seriously undervalue the pony. You could have shipped express mail (no insurance) for around $29, and I am 95% sure you and the buyer would have been covered by eBay.
Even though this is not your fault, you could offer to split the customs fee with the buyer (if you feel bad or that you should), or you could have the buyer ship the item back to you, and re-ship on her dime. As I said above, I believe you can ship express in a flat rate envelope for around $29-30. It might be frustrating, but she would probably rather pay for about $60 in shipping rather than well over $100 in customs fees.
Best of luck to you! And enjoy your weekend - this sort of thing happens all the time. Don't let it stress you. I have seen buyers lie about ever even receiving the items and filing a claim to get their money back, and let the items get returned to me - all because they didn't want to pay a $20 customs charge. I am so thrilled your buyer is at least honest!
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Dunno if it's the same in the Netherlands but the customs wants to see the bill (how much you've paid for the item) as a proof.
So you need to print out the paypal invoice and take it with you to the customs - the name of the sender should match or at least the item description.
So even if you write a wrong amount on the custom form, they still are able to get the fees cuz you have to show off the bill.
That always sucks. Best thing for these high amounts would be to split the payment - like $400 and $50 - so you can write down $50 on the custom forms and the buyer has a bill over that $50 for the customs - that's not legal!
I never did that before but I never bought anything from outside Europe for such an high amount :huh:
In Germany we need to pay 19% of the amount not sure how much it is in the Netherlands but I guess it's also quit a lot when they charge $162 :blink:
And sending it as a gift and the customs get it, they might also ask for a bill - and if you declare that you have no bill cause it was really a gift, they go and try figuring out the value of the item.... that could also end up in a disaster. =(
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Actually, it does matter if you send it as a gift!
It depends on the country obviously, but here in Iceland if something is sent as a gift, you don't pay anything up to the value of $80. If the Gift is worth more (as in, if more is declared on the package) than $80 then you pay some fee, but MUCH less than what you´d have to pay if it weren't a gift.
This is where your buyer has to sit down and do some googling for rules in the Netherlands, or simply go to the customs office where she would learn the rules.
As for providing the bill, which is indeed what customs ask for in order to determine the value (in case the value marked on the package is disputed), if she says it is meant as a gift and you confirm it, there will simply be no bill. In all honesty, it is going to be REALLY hard to convince anyone that a very very expensive pony was indeed meant as a gift and you have to be really careful to not mention ebay etc. as I said, you can shoot me a PM and I can guide you through this, but I do think this should be a completely last resort. Convincing the customs officers that something is meant as a gift is not easy even when the item is much less valuable and is actually *marked* as such :S (I´ve had to wrestle with them for 1 baity pony declared as gift worth $5, but Icelandic customs are extra horrible)
I do believe that she should have been prepared to pay some customs (the reason why I never buy or trade for more than 3 ponies at a time or join swaps :( ) and that this is indeed her oversight for not even counting on this. This is why I think you have done a lot already and that this is something she has to decide on her own - cough up the fees or return the pony to you ^^
ETA: I also feel it´s a good idea for me to mention that there are of course risks in declaring lower values or declaring somethng as a gift. Namely:
-the value you declare on the package is the value you are "insured" for if something happens. So in case of damage or loss, in the eyes of the law, the price you put on the declaration is the price you will be refunded.
-if you mark something as a gift on the package/declaration, as far as I know it´s completely harmless unless someone goes out of their way to prove that you are lying, but I really don't see that happening. the problem here is if you mark it as a gift via paypal, then you are not covered in case your buyer decides to trick you ^^
my point is, don't do either of these things lightly, especially not with items that are worth much. But this is kinda like shooting myself in the leg as I cannot have anything sent to me here unless it´s marked as a gift. The charges we have to pay can easily come up to 50% of the item iteslf :S even for swaps, trades etc (I rarely actually buy)
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Is it just me or are customs getting worse all over the world....?
This is getting such a big problem that for high value items it would probably be wise to make some kind of agreement or statement about that beforehand.
In fact I see that a lot in ebay auctions these days, sellers adding a disclaimer about custom fees, that they are the buyers responsibility and not a part of the shipping.
edit to add:
Re marking as gift, whether it matters depends on the destination country but most countries seem to have rules like this:
For small declared values, marked as gift it will pass customs without any problem.
Declared value being more than a certain amount, marked as gift will not matter, it will still be hit with a customs fee - *if* the package gets caught that is.
Here in Sweden the value limit seems to be about $50? $60 maybe? I don't know the exact amount but somewhere around there.
Many members here, from various contries, have reported similar circumstances.
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Hi everyone,
I'm the buyer of this gorgeous beauty and I'm very glad with this topic too... ;)
Of course I paid the fees, because I wanted Thai Ice Crystal save with me... <3 ;). I was very shocked at first, because this never happened to me before!!! (And it's a lot of money for me too...).
Cloud_Weaver couldn't have known this. Neither did I. I'm going to call the customoffice at monday, because it is closed today, to verify the costs... The fee is now 20% of the sellingprice. (Could have buy a lot of ponies from it... ;)).
Just want to say that Cloud_Weaver is a very nice, great, caring seller and I have to apologize for my emotional reaction at first, which was a result of the unpleasant surprise (thought he was illegal or so XD) and a result of less experience with fees (I'm an active buyer since 2012 again)... Cloud_Weaver kept me always informed during the shipping and as you see, she's very concerned. We're both victims in a kind of way. Hope the market will be steady on this kind of auctions.
If someone can help me, please feel free to contact me.
Thank you!!
Marieke
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:O Do you have current pics of the lovely pony :)
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Nope, not yet, sorry!! Just got him yesterday... ^_^ I'll make them soon!!! :lovey:
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Thanks Mariegoldie for commenting on the situation.
I am sure it was a surprise to both of you. :( Unfortunately, we are at our goverment's mercy no matter where we live.
Is it just me or are customs getting worse all over the world....?
This is getting such a big problem that for high value items it would probably be wise to make some kind of agreement or statement about that beforehand.
In fact I see that a lot in ebay auctions these days, sellers adding a disclaimer about custom fees, that they are the buyers responsibility and not a part of the shipping.
Tootie, ebay advises/tells sellers to add this statement to their listings. It is in the event that if negative feedback is left regarding customs fees they will remove it.
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Firstly, glad that the pony is in his new home. Secondly, I've been thinking about this topic and have been searching for info, just saw this on another forum (not a pony forum but a skiing one :) ). When shipping to Sweden from USA: UPS, custom fees every time; DHL, custom fees once in while; FedEx, straight to the receiver no custom fees.
Edit: This was a couple of years old, so it might not apply now.
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I don't read dutch but from my searching and Mum's translation it appears that there is no customs duty on toys entering the Netherlands from outside the EU but there is VAT of 19% plus a handling fee for toys costing over 100euro.
http://gebruikstarief.douane.nl/9503004990
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Congrats Mariegoldie on your beautiful new pony :)
I completely feel for you and I can imagine how much of a shock it was for you to see that crazy price :S especially without anyone there to let you know what it is.
I´m glad both of you had great communication ^^
I do think it´s a good idea from now on for sellers to mention the possibility of customs fees just in case the buyer is inexperienced :)
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Hi Mariegoldie!
Welcome to the pony boards :hug:
if the item was marked at the Value that it is and not as a gift, then customs would charge that high fee. I have shipped tons of stuff out of the Country and I always mark them as a gift and a low amount on the pony, I never had any problems, but that is just me. ;)
Anywho~ I had to just kinda poke in here to say that, Mariegoldie is a sweetie pie. I have sold her lots of rare ponies, and she always lets me know when she gets them, so she is a trustworthy buyer. I will have to leave her some feedback on here now that she is a pony member :satisfied:
I just wanted everyone to know that, we have a great new pony member to the pony family ^.^ Hope that things are able to get taken care of with customs, if I can help either one of you out in anyway, just let me know :hug:
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Hi Marieke :)
Glad to see your response here! It's very understandable you were shocked about the costs! I know i was when i had to pay customs for the first time!
I hope you will never have to pay such high fees in the future! :hug:
Good to hear the communication between the two of you was great! ;)
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Thank you Angelponies!!! :flow:
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Glad that everything worked out for EVERYONE!
*pony hugs*
And welcome to the Arena, mariegoldie!
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Thanks so much for posting here Mariegoldie :hug: I'm sorry you had to pay those awful high customs fees. It was shocking for both you and Cloud Weaver. I'm very happy that you both kept good communication and worked things out though :bigups: :hug: Welcome to the Arena! and big congrats on your beautiful new pony :cheer:
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And here he is...!!! :lovey:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
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Aww..he looks so handsome!
I am also glad you guys got things worked out. :)
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Wauw she looks amazing :lovey:
So glad you finally have her and it worked out for the both of you!
:hug:
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He's stunning :) Glad you got everything sorted.
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PRETTY! LOVE that stripe!