The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: starstrider on May 03, 2018, 07:41:43 AM
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Hey pony friends! I was looking at buying this Raspberry Jam, but her hair looks extremely long, and I can't find any reference pictures of her with such long hair. I'm guessing it's a rehair job, but I'm really not sure. What do you guys think? I know the Euro version supposedly has some differences, but is super long hair one of them?
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She looks like a rehair to me.
The one we had in Europe was made in China and she has no forelock. But her hair is not longer than the HK one with a forelock, I don't think. I have both. I'll go see if I have a photo of them.
Edit to add: No comparison pics on my page and my PC battery is about to die, but there are photos of my loose Chinese one and the MOC one on this page:
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/raspberry_jam.htm
Also the HK one with the forelock at the bottom. Should give you an idea of proper hair length for the two versions.
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She looks like a rehair to me.
The one we had in Europe was made in China and she has no forelock. But her hair is not longer than the HK one with a forelock, I don't think. I have both. I'll go see if I have a photo of them.
Edit to add: No comparison pics on my page and my PC battery is about to die, but there are photos of my loose Chinese one and the MOC one on this page:
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/raspberry_jam.htm
Also the HK one with the forelock at the bottom. Should give you an idea of proper hair length for the two versions.
Thanks Taffeta! I suspected as much, but it's always good to ask for an expert second opinion ;) It's a shame, because her body is not discoloured and I've had trouble finding her in decent condition. But a total rehair makes her severely overpriced in this case. Ah well. I'll keep hunting for her. Thanks! :D
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Definitely looks like a rehair. Pony collectors seem to frequently add a lot length when rehairing. It also looks quite shiny which also suggests new hair.
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the green tone says : rehair! Plus the hair is too long and too shiny
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Even body tone is more important to me than original hair, especially when the pony is hard to find with nice coloration and the rehair job looks as nice as this one. It's up to you of course, but something to consider! Once you have her, you can trim her hair how you like, and if one comes up with lovely coloration and original hair you can always upgrade. Try contacting the seller and see if she's flexible on the price; she may be factoring in the time it to took to rehair the pony into the cost.
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I agree that whether or not you buy a rehair is a personal choice, but a rehaired pony should not be expected to fetch the same price as a mint original with its own hair.
The thing that concerns me most is that the OP came here to ask about the pony. That suggests either the seller hasn't disclosed the rehairing or they don't know. If it's the latter, that's a conversation the OP could have with the seller and maybe get a good deal or negotiate on the price - but if the seller wants reimbursement for the labour and materials of rehairing, then they should be disclosing it is a rehair in the first place.
On another note, it's interesting how different collectors prioritise different features. Most substitute hair colours are an approximate match to the original, but not necessarily exact, and this one bothers my eyes for not being exact. I think that's why I don't collect rehairs. I can deal with different body tones as many ponies have several known batch tones anyway, as well as discolouration risks.
Hair is different for me. Aside fading pink, it should be easier to get a pony without hair discolouration than without body discolouration. And there are a lot of hair variations but they're still original pony hair and you can tell.
The only material for me that would be a perfect match for a rehair would require sacrificing another pony to achieve. I am happy people don't do that as a matter of course. But it's a deal breaker for me if the pony's hair is newer than the pony. It just looks wrong.
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I agree that whether or not you buy a rehair is a personal choice, but a rehaired pony should not be expected to fetch the same price as a mint original with its own hair.
The thing that concerns me most is that the OP came here to ask about the pony. That suggests either the seller hasn't disclosed the rehairing or they don't know. If it's the latter, that's a conversation the OP could have with the seller and maybe get a good deal or negotiate on the price - but if the seller wants reimbursement for the labour and materials of rehairing, then they should be disclosing it is a rehair in the first place.
On another note, it's interesting how different collectors prioritise different features. Most substitute hair colours are an approximate match to the original, but not necessarily exact, and this one bothers my eyes for not being exact. I think that's why I don't collect rehairs. I can deal with different body tones as many ponies have several known batch tones anyway, as well as discolouration risks.
Hair is different for me. Aside fading pink, it should be easier to get a pony without hair discolouration than without body discolouration. And there are a lot of hair variations but they're still original pony hair and you can tell.
The only material for me that would be a perfect match for a rehair would require sacrificing another pony to achieve. I am happy people don't do that as a matter of course. But it's a deal breaker for me if the pony's hair is newer than the pony. It just looks wrong.
Slightly off topic, but this is a good discussion point on the ethics of rehairing.
We each have our own viewpoint and as long as that is clear when ponies are sold so others can make up their minds then that is fine.
Personally I do rehair baity ponies - but only for myself, and always an alternative rehair though usually with the 'spirit' of the original pony (ie Beachball's rehaired sister still has turquoise hair but it's undersown with blonde so hope it is obvious that she is not an original Beachball).
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I think the general accepted ethic is to mark the pony's hooves that it's a rehair. Of course people can maybe remove this annotation but doing so would be very deliberate and dishonest, so I don't imagine many people would do it.
Whatever people's personal preferences, rehairing, and symbol touching up, and stuff like that needs to be disclosed to a potential buyer. Otherwise it's just not fair :/
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Yes. That's a rehair ^^
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The thing that concerns me most is that the OP came here to ask about the pony. That suggests either the seller hasn't disclosed the rehairing or they don't know. If it's the latter, that's a conversation the OP could have with the seller and maybe get a good deal or negotiate on the price - but if the seller wants reimbursement for the labour and materials of rehairing, then they should be disclosing it is a rehair in the first place.
That's exactly it, Taffeta. The seller has not declared that it is a rehair job, they stated in the description that they had purchased it this way. I don't think it's a deliberate deception, it's very possible the seller just didn't realise that it is a rehair. I might send them a message and let them know that it has been modified and suggest that they should declare as much in the listing description. I personally don't collect rehaired ponies as a rule, as the pony is then only 50% original! But if the seller updates the description and reduces the selling price, I'll be satisfied with that. It bothers me that some other collector might buy it unawares.
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This is sadly one of those plus/minus situations with restoring ponies.
Most ponypeople who restore stuff are really honest folks who just want to make their ponies pretty again. Absolutely nobody has any issue with them doing that. Even if they want to alt rehair an abused pony, there's no issue with that either.
But the problem comes when a pony doesn't get properly marked up and ends up on sale. And then it can change hands a lot of times and the info about it gets lost.
I think that we are not as careful as we could be as a community about restoration techniques that are permanent. Obv. people who are marking ponies as rehairs or whatever are doing a responsible job even if they intend to keep it, but there are ways to remove some of those markings given the sophisticated level of restoration ponypeople are now capable of.
I worry that the bigger picture is that we are creating a world of half-restored ponies which may get handed on to the next wave of new collectors without their knowledge and people may spend more money than they ought on something that isn't entirely authentic.
I don't collect rehairs, restored ponies or replica items as a rule, but in my collection I know I have one rehaired Dream Beauty, one whose eyes are repainted (by PKW, I need to mark her hooves) and one sea pony with a replica shell. The replica shell is marked by the producer so there's no issue with that being mixed up. In my records of my collection, it's mentioned that the other two ponies in question are restored. I don't really know how to neatly mark a dream beauty in a way that wouldn't show.
Even though I know the details of these ponies, if something were to happen to me, it's not for sure that whoever took charge of my collection would know, and even if it was my sister and then she passed them on somehow, it could be lost. If it were someone with a lot of ponies in their collection that had restored aspects, how much more of a risk that must be.
I feel like restoration is fine if you want to do it, and so is creating replica parts like flutter wings - but that we need to find a way of making sure restored ponies and replica parts are declared when sold on and that if something were to happen to us, the people handling the collection would then know. We say all the time, "well, I won't sell it", or "well, I know I did x and y", but would someone taking over our collection in our absence know those things? It's really easy for someone to get a restored or rehaired pony completely in innocence from both buyer and seller.
I think given how sophisticated we are at fixing ponies, we need to get more sophisticated at making sure these things are properly declared, just in case in the future it isn't us selling the ponies on.
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This thread has reminded me to note that my alternates are in fact rehairs so that if something happens to me and my family sells off my collection they don't naively sell my rehairs as some sort of variant.
Also, I tend to feel rare/sought after ponies deserve to be preserved and/or restored. If that requires rehairing then it's something I wholeheartedly support so long as said pony isn't represented falsely when resold.
I do remember selling one of my alternate rehairs for a sum a bit larger than the original pony would have gone for and someone had an opinion on whether that was right or wrong. In the end, it usually comes down to personal taste and aesthetics that differ from collector to collector.
tldr- restore but be honest <3
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I had no idea that "hair too shiny" was an indicator of a rehair. I seem to have stumbled on either a technique or product that leaves some of my ponies with *extremely* shiny hair. I'm not sure what did it, and I processed 300+ ponies using the same stuff and the same way all at once, so figuring out exactly what is working so well will be hard. I bought cheap economy shampoo and conditioner, and my technique was more about getting things done quickly than putting a lot of love into it, but something worked. It *really* worked. It's actually shocking how shiny the hair on some of my trade ponies turned out after I "processed" them. I'm hoping nobody ends up accusing me of trying to pass off rehairs as unmodified ponies. These ponies aren't rehairs, they're just really, really clean:/
The only two ponies I have in in this house that I know are rehairs have pretty matte hair. They were done before pony hair was available for purchase in large quantities though.
The permanent restoration thing is an issue though. With ponies changing hands so often, I'm sure some restored ponies are slipping through the cracks, even without dishonest sellers trying to make a quick buck. I know I have a few restored ponies in my collection. In general, once a pony is designated "collection", it's never sold or traded. Because of this, I have had a very few ponies touched up by a friend of mine who's an artist. She's fixed a few scuffed symbols or rubbed eyes for me. She does a fantastic job, so you can not tell anything was ever done to these ponies. I do know which they are since I don't take advantage of her kindness often, except for *very* special ponies(usually gift ponies from someone I'm very close to). The ponies I've had restored are only the ones that will *never* be sold or traded while I'm alive. However, if something happened to me and my collection was sold off without me being involved, there would be a couple of ponies that would give their new owners a surprise if they were scrubbed with any kind of vigor.
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I had no idea that "hair too shiny" was an indicator of a rehair. I seem to have stumbled on either a technique or product that leaves some of my ponies with *extremely* shiny hair. I'm not sure what did it, and I processed 300+ ponies using the same stuff and the same way all at once, so figuring out exactly what is working so well will be hard. I bought cheap economy shampoo and conditioner, and my technique was more about getting things done quickly than putting a lot of love into it, but something worked. It *really* worked. It's actually shocking how shiny the hair on some of my trade ponies turned out after I "processed" them. I'm hoping nobody ends up accusing me of trying to pass off rehairs as unmodified ponies. These ponies aren't rehairs, they're just really, really clean:/
The only two ponies I have in in this house that I know are rehairs have pretty matte hair. They were done before pony hair was available for purchase in large quantities though.
The permanent restoration thing is an issue though. With ponies changing hands so often, I'm sure some restored ponies are slipping through the cracks, even without dishonest sellers trying to make a quick buck. I know I have a few restored ponies in my collection. In general, once a pony is designated "collection", it's never sold or traded. Because of this, I have had a very few ponies touched up by a friend of mine who's an artist. She's fixed a few scuffed symbols or rubbed eyes for me. She does a fantastic job, so you can not tell anything was ever done to these ponies. I do know which they are since I don't take advantage of her kindness often, except for *very* special ponies(usually gift ponies from someone I'm very close to). The ponies I've had restored are only the ones that will *never* be sold or traded while I'm alive. However, if something happened to me and my collection was sold off without me being involved, there would be a couple of ponies that would give their new owners a surprise if they were scrubbed with any kind of vigor.
I wouldn't worry too much about your cleaning method making you seem dishonest hun. When a product works it works and typically I find the cheapest products do the best job too. There's also something to be said about handling rehairs, doing them ones self, or having been able to compare the original hair to replacement hair that makes people able to spot it when they see it.
Here's an example.
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(https://flic.kr/p/HdcnmH)IMG_1931 (https://flic.kr/p/HdcnmH) by Rachael Regan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/161505607@N08/), on Flickr
The swatch in the center is a small sample of the color one would use to rehair cotton candy or sundance if they were trying to keep their look as original as possible. The ponies in the photo have nice hair, it's glossy and shelf worthy. But you can see the swatch in the center has a much more 'wet' or 'sleek' appearance, the original hair looking a bit matte by comparison.
I hope this helps at all <3
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if you ask me, that's an envy coloured rehair. (dollyhair)
I own the same colour and for me it's a 99 percent match
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Is that really the match for Cotton Candy and Sundance?
Maybe it's just my eyes or my screen but they look completely different to me ><
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Aside from the length, the limpness of the hair also is an indication of a rehair. (Although some later Euro ponies do have limper hair compared to earlier ponies, like the Schooltime ponies or Romance ponies. Still, Raspberry Jam should have a lot more body in her hair regardless of where she is from.)
I would always tell a buyer if I rehaired a pony, but I would never write on a pony's hooves. No way am I making a permanent mark on a vintage pony! (That said, rehairing is too much work to do on 'sales ponies' imo, ha ha.)
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Is that really the match for Cotton Candy and Sundance?
Maybe it's just my eyes or my screen but they look completely different to me ><
It's not a perfect match, you're absolutely right. The shade is Tea Rose and while it would work well enough you can still see there's a difference.
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Is that really the match for Cotton Candy and Sundance?
Maybe it's just my eyes or my screen but they look completely different to me ><
It's not a perfect match, you're absolutely right. The shade is Tea Rose and while it would work well enough you can still see there's a difference.
Hrm, ok. To me it looks entirely different, and not just the texture. But I have been told a lot of times by a lot of people in my real life who think I'm mad for seeing shades of colour they don't see, and fussing about it, so I thought maybe it was just me. To my eyes it doesn't look at all close to being a match.
The Cookery Ponies, Schooltime Ponies can have weirdly shaped hair. And so can a couple of the Sweetberry Ponies in the European release (China, no forelock). Raspberry Jam is actually one of those that can have that feature, but you can still see the difference. Raspberry Jam's hair is richer in shade anyway and the texture is wrong as well as the length. It doesn't fall naturally in the way a rooted pony would.
It's also true for some of the playschool babies.
Actually, I think the seven characters can have "newer" looking hair in some cases as well. It's not that they have shapeless hair, but it is very long. It can look gorgeous like that, or it can look flat and hard to style, even when silky. I have seen rehaired character ponies which look very similar in hair format to the actual pony. I suspect the biggest risk ponies for rehair mixup are ones from these later years. A lot of them have naturally very long and shiny hair as standard. And the old rules about things like pale pink fading are less for sure.
Just for reference:
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This is my Melody. I've had her from brand new from the store, so I know 100% she's original. But I think that someone skilled could probably rehair a Melody to look pretty close to that. :/
@LM - IMO if you're willing to replace the hair you've already changed a vintage pony beyond return. Marking the bottom of the hooves is much less intrusive than rehairing is, so it kind of doesn't make sense to me to be willing to do one but not the other.
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Is that really the match for Cotton Candy and Sundance?
Maybe it's just my eyes or my screen but they look completely different to me ><
It's not a perfect match, you're absolutely right. The shade is Tea Rose and while it would work well enough you can still see there's a difference.
Hrm, ok. To me it looks entirely different, and not just the texture. But I have been told a lot of times by a lot of people in my real life who think I'm mad for seeing shades of colour they don't see, and fussing about it, so I thought maybe it was just me. To my eyes it doesn't look at all close to being a match.
@LM - IMO if you're willing to replace the hair you've already changed a vintage pony beyond return. Marking the bottom of the hooves is much less intrusive than rehairing is, so it kind of doesn't make sense to me to be willing to do one but not the other.
It's not weird at all! I've read there are people who are able to discern subtle color differences better than others, and while others will describe something as blue while another might decribe it as purple! If you ask me you have a gift! In any case you're right, it's definitely not an exact match but is what many would use to rehair said ponies. Some dolly hair colors are closer matches than others.
I also agree with the statement that rehairing, even in terms of restoration is concerned, is already a drastic alteration in terms of modification so signing the bottom to make future collectors aware of it is really not such an absurb idea.
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It's not just you, Taffeta, those look like entirely different shades of pink to me, too. Maybe they look closer in colour in real life (I know cameras can distort colours sometimes), but the hank of hair looks much lighter/brighter to me, than CC/Sundance's hair colour.
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Definitely a rehair, but a very good one! Personally I think either her or Cranberry Muffins is my fave of the set.
As for the ethics of rehairing I think you should always mark the pony in some way (like others said for ex the hooves) just because some people are picky about it. It’s about being open.
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@LM - IMO if you're willing to replace the hair you've already changed a vintage pony beyond return. Marking the bottom of the hooves is much less intrusive than rehairing is, so it kind of doesn't make sense to me to be willing to do one but not the other.
Yeah, but one change is improving the pony's appearance (assuming her hair was cropped or severely damaged--I would never rehair a pony with good original hair) while the other change is adding a blemish.
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I refuse to carve up or mark a pony's vinyl - they have enough condition issues as it stands, without adding more to the mix. That said I have no intention of selling any of the (two? maybe three) non-custom rerooted ponies I own and they're easily identified as such by popping open their unsealed heads and taking a look inside at all the knots. Looks nothing like factory weave.
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I refuse to carve up or mark a pony's vinyl - they have enough condition issues as it stands, without adding more to the mix. That said I have no intention of selling any of the (two? maybe three) non-custom rerooted ponies I own and they're easily identified as such by popping open their unsealed heads and taking a look inside at all the knots. Looks nothing like factory weave.
I just think that it saves the risk later on to mark a pony now. We can't any of us legislate for the future of our ponies going forwards or who might end up with them. People who don't know ponies aren't likely to pull a head off to check, and shouldn't have to do so to authenticate.
Rehairing is customising. It's restoration, but it's still customising, because it is replacing something original and factory produced with something hand-rooted and individual. Even if it's a good match. So a buyer should always be aware of those alterations having been made.
I also wouldn't write on a pony, but I also don't restore ponies, I leave that to a buyer if they want to do it. I still feel if you are willing to make one change, you should be willing to make more than one. Not everyone agrees a rehair looks better - it's a very subjective thing and all collectors should have the right to choose with full knowledge of the pony's provenance. Nobody here would sell a pony without disclosing, but once the pony is out of our hands, if it's not marked, we've no control over what happens to it next.
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If that’s how the seller worded it — I purchased it this way — it makes me wonder if the seller suspects it’s a rehair and is trying to sell it off because it’s worth less than what she paid. Just my thoughts.
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Is that really the match for Cotton Candy and Sundance?
Maybe it's just my eyes or my screen but they look completely different to me ><
It's not a perfect match, you're absolutely right. The shade is Tea Rose and while it would work well enough you can still see there's a difference.
Hrm, ok. To me it looks entirely different, and not just the texture. But I have been told a lot of times by a lot of people in my real life who think I'm mad for seeing shades of colour they don't see, and fussing about it, so I thought maybe it was just me. To my eyes it doesn't look at all close to being a match.
I'm with you Taffeta. I see WAY more colours than most people... it made my painting professor infuriated enough that she went on an expletive-laced screaming rant at me during one class! That hank of hair looks very very very different than the original hair on the ponies, but I can see what colour it's trying to be! :-p
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Is that really the match for Cotton Candy and Sundance?
Maybe it's just my eyes or my screen but they look completely different to me ><
It's not a perfect match, you're absolutely right. The shade is Tea Rose and while it would work well enough you can still see there's a difference.
Hrm, ok. To me it looks entirely different, and not just the texture. But I have been told a lot of times by a lot of people in my real life who think I'm mad for seeing shades of colour they don't see, and fussing about it, so I thought maybe it was just me. To my eyes it doesn't look at all close to being a match.
I'm with you Taffeta. I see WAY more colours than most people... it made my painting professor infuriated enough that she went on an expletive-laced screaming rant at me during one class! That hank of hair looks very very very different than the original hair on the ponies, but I can see what colour it's trying to be! :-p
Yay :D It's so nice to know it's not just me! I drive my family crazy with "does this go with this because it's not the exact shade of that" questions. And I guess that's also why I am a little obsessed with minor variations in body and hair colour on ponies too. But it's a big relief to me to know I'm not the only one who doesn't see that as a match.
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I just think that it saves the risk later on to mark a pony now. We can't any of us legislate for the future of our ponies going forwards or who might end up with them. People who don't know ponies aren't likely to pull a head off to check, and shouldn't have to do so to authenticate.
Risk to whom? A future person I don't care about because I'll be dead when my ponies leave my possession? In exchange for risk now, and definitely detracting from my own personal enjoyment of my collection by defacing them. One is fixing damage, the other is causing it. I don't see those two as equivalent. Each to their own though! Everyone is certainly welcome to do with their own ponies as they wish. It's not that hard to ask a seller to check if rehairs are that much of a personal pet peeve.
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I guess it's all a matter of perspective.
I admit I also don't understand how marking the base of the hoof, which you can't see, is really that offensive, if you're willing to replace the whole mane.
But it is personal perspective. For me the pony that started this discussion is pretty much worthless. Obviously in real terms she isn't, but for me she is. If she had her hooves written on but original hair, I'd value her much higher. I don't mind hoof writing, so I guess I am finding it hard to figure out why it's so much more of a problem than the rehairing.
I see both rehairing and marking a pony as doing damage. It doesn't follow that damage is negative, necessarily, but it is still changing some part of the original. I personally believe if you aren't willing to mark a pony as a rehair (or a repaint), you shouldn't rehair (repaint) it. But that's just my view, and I accept other opinions exist.
I personally do care about who has my ponies after I die, and that they are happy with them. It may not be my problem, but I do care. And I do care that something I do to a pony may affect someone else in the future, which is why I don't use chemicals on ponies either.
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Definitely a difference of perspective - I can't imagine how a buzz cut is preferable to a properly restored mane that looks like new on display, and is pleasant to brush and touch. But marks under hooves, those bother me. They often creep up the pony's foot plastic leaving an ugly stain, and rough cuts to vinyl under my fingers feel nasty. I don't like the idea of harming my ponies by cutting into them either.
That said, absolutely everyone is entitled to have a different opinion, I don't presume to be in the majority or to be 'right', it all comes down to personal preference. Marking isn't even proof against ending up with a rehair when you don't want them, because the seller has to actually mention the marking. I ended up with a Mimic with initials under her hooves that wasn't mentioned in the sales post, despite being described as 'no major marks, excellent condition'! Still looking to replace her, blegh. Now I've gone and made myself sad. :cry:
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I refuse to carve up or mark a pony's vinyl - they have enough condition issues as it stands, without adding more to the mix. That said I have no intention of selling any of the (two? maybe three) non-custom rerooted ponies I own and they're easily identified as such by popping open their unsealed heads and taking a look inside at all the knots. Looks nothing like factory weave.
I feel the same way. If I do any heavy restoration on a pony it gets a note inside the body with what was done. Although mostly so I can keep track of it since it would be really simple for someone to remove. :lol: