How do you feel about re-casts? (BJD)

[Galactica]

Phynx I think you were treated very poorly and I'm sorry your doll group did that to you.  I do think that the recast witch hunt phenomena that happens can be extreme and ridiculous.  I think it is particularly bad when doll groups fling unbased accusations at innocent parties.

But... I do understand the idea behind not allowing in a social group (ie DOA which is so huge) people to openly own, sell, share photos of,  recast dolls.  Doing those things SUPPORTS recasters because it implies that having recast dolls is okay.

I know there are lots of people that just don't get why having a recast art doll hurts both the artist and the hobby while supporting an art thief.  But maybe those people might STILL hesitate before buying a recast doll (or before buying a doll that they do not know one way or the other if it is legit) if they thought they wouldn't be able to happily or easily share those dolls with their social networking groups. So then the recasters make less money and more people by legit art dolls.

I would compare it to owning a counterfit of a well known and living artist. Regardless of whether you personally enjoy the painting or not, or whether you knew it was counterfit when it was given to you- if you KNEW it was a counterfit, you probably would not want to post photos of it and share it with other art collectors right?  At least that's how I see it.

I don't think however that there is ever any call to be nasty to other people.

[rosierjay]

this is a question for the anti-recaster, and i hope it doesn't come off as rude, but i think this is a legit question.
let's say you know an etsy seller has a recast, but the things they sell are clothes, shoes, wigs and the like, all homemade, would you still avoid buying from them?
I would just like to be aware, as if i decide to make and sell clothes, i'll keep them out of places that people could pm me about it.

i think the only main way people, aside from here, would know is i would probably use my doll to model the clothes for pictures. as that's kinda how its usually done.

[Galactica]

this is a question for the anti-recaster, and i hope it doesn't come off as rude, but i think this is a legit question.
let's say you know an etsy seller has a recast, but the things they sell are clothes, shoes, wigs and the like, all homemade, would you still avoid buying from them?
I would just like to be aware, as if i decide to make and sell clothes, i'll keep them out of places that people could pm me about it.

i think the only main way people, aside from here, would know is i would probably use my doll to model the clothes for pictures. as that's kinda how its usually done.

Well I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I guess if I knew that the shop or person supported bjd recasters and recast dolls, I probably would avoid them if I could.  Of course that would require that I first know the seller is a recaster or recast supporter, which is of course not usually obvious. 

[rosierjay]

meh. it's beyond hurt feelings. so don't worry about that.
just good to know. guess you wouldn't buy anything from me again as well. not taking it a personal affront, but i would like to know. i probably won't post things for sale in the forum anymore, if i have to worry about it.

[Vertefae]

Phynix thank you for sharing that. I am so sorry your group acted that way. My local group is extremely anti recast. It wouldn't surprise me if they were the kind to smash a recast.

To me and please this is only my opinion. I think everyone should be able to buy dolls if they want. A lot of BJD people are absolute snobs. Or at least come off that way. If you can't afford the most expensive doll with the most expensive eyes and wig you're not good enough. Many, many luxury goods have knock offs.

The only recast I would never buy are recast art dolls. But if it's a company well that's a part of doing business. It's harsh but the truth.

Roserjay- please don't feel like you have to hide your dolls or not post things for sale. Many of us here are neutral or pro recast. We're happy to buy from everyone.

[Emerald]

A lot of BJD people are absolute snobs. Or at least come off that way.

  I didn't say it, buuuuuuuut... 

[MiRaja]

I don't think a person who owns a recast is horrible.  Nor would I treat them badly.  I would probably avoid buying from a person purposely buying recasts, however. 

I'm with the arguments regarding Hasbro and Mattel recasts not really harming a mass corporation's bottom line, but BJD is produced by small groups or single individuals.  I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.  Whether it be someone bought it for them, or it was a first buy and they didn't honestly know.  What is done is done, and I don't think something should then just be destroyed. 

That said, I do wonder what the procedure would be here, if a member here was a doll artist, say, made their own bjd, say like Batchix or what not, and then someone else came along, recasted their doll, and was selling recasts, or someone was selling a recast of their doll?  What would the arena do then?  Would it still be okay with recasts even if it was directly harming a member of the arena?  Just a question, really. 

I do not collect modern BJD, I do work with bisque German and French dolls, and honestly, recast does even come up in my circles.  Just today, I was talking with a few people about their dream dolls and how careful they have to be since there was a glut of recasting done in the 1960's, and that they were easier to spot back then because of their newness, but now that those recasts are nearly 60 years old, they've got patina, and they pass much easier for the real things( We're talking recast French Fashion dolls, or Jumeaus.  Think about dropping $10k on a doll, only to find out it's fake.  Enough to make a person weep! ).  It makes me wonder how modern BJD's will be in the future.  I would highly suggest someone or somebuddies to be compiling information NOW into some sort of book or archive that is a one-hit spot for identifying BJD dolls and what's real, what's not, and what is trademark for one company and what isn't for another.  With bisque it can be so hard, because there is so many sources, and a lot of it just what so-and-so said because no one bothered to keep any notes or information much on these dolls back in the 1850's-1920's. . .! 

It does make me fearful for the BJD community when there seems to be such an epidemic of fakes floating around already. 

[rosierjay]

I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.

i'm sorry, i'm not attacking, i'm just trying to understand.
it is ok to ostracize someone who knowing owns a recast?
this is why i suddenly feel like a leper. i've own the one girl for about a month, and now i've been labeled into a group.

Spoiler

and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.

it honestly makes me want to drop the arena altogether, but i love the community here. but i think. ok. people who are anti-recasts will see me in other threads and still be silently judging me for my decisions. i just don't understand. there are people that post things i morally disagree with, but it's not my place to tell them or whatnot.

[Emerald]

Are there ways to spot a fake? How can you tell from photos? I understand a lot of recasts are bad quality and/or different resin than the originals, so you can tell by feel, but how do people know when someone posts in a forum and they don't tell you?

[wystearya]

meh. it's beyond hurt feelings. so don't worry about that.
just good to know. guess you wouldn't buy anything from me again as well. not taking it a personal affront, but i would like to know. i probably won't post things for sale in the forum anymore, if i have to worry about it.

Just for owning a recast?   I am guessing you didn't know it was recast when you bought it, right?

I don't think I could do that to someone.  Not just for owning something. 

[Emerald]

I'm sorry for having 100 questions going at once in this thread, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. If stealing is wrong, it's wrong. It shoudn't matter if you steal from a big company or a small artist, right? Saying fakies from stolen Hasboro molds are okay and re-casts are not is like saying it's cool to steal stuff from Wal-Mart but not from your grandmother. I don't understand the thought process behind one being okay and not the other. To me either both are okay or neither is, if the bottom line is that both are theft.

[wystearya]

I'm sorry for having 100 questions going at once in this thread, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. If stealing is wrong, it's wrong. It shoudn't matter if you steal from a big company or a small artist, right? Saying fakies from stolen Hasboro molds are okay and re-casts are not is like saying it's cool to steal stuff from Wal-Mart but not from your grandmother. I don't understand the thought process behind one being okay and not the other. To me either both are okay or neither is, if the bottom line is that both are theft.

I *think* with fakie MLPs the law states that if the company changes the toy by a certain percent (like 10 percent different) then it's not stealing.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong!!!  >> Not that I think this is ok (morally), but it is legal.

In the case of recasts, they are trying to look 100% the same.  They want to replicate the original as closely as possible.  It's like getting a "Folex" (Fake Rolex) watch.  The quality is not the same, and it hurts the real brand's reputation.  At least, this is my opinion on it.

[Emerald]

I'm sorry for having 100 questions going at once in this thread, but I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this one. If stealing is wrong, it's wrong. It shoudn't matter if you steal from a big company or a small artist, right? Saying fakies from stolen Hasboro molds are okay and re-casts are not is like saying it's cool to steal stuff from Wal-Mart but not from your grandmother. I don't understand the thought process behind one being okay and not the other. To me either both are okay or neither is, if the bottom line is that both are theft.

I *think* with fakie MLPs the law states that if the company changes the toy by a certain percent (like 10 percent different) then it's not stealing.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong!!!

In the case of recasts, they are trying to look 100% the same.  They want to replicate the original as closely as possible.  It's like getting a "Folex" (Fake Rolex) watch.  The quality is not the same, and it hurts the real brand's reputation.  At least, this is my opinion on it.

I meant more how people separate the two in their minds. Do those of you who are firmly anti-recast shop at Hot Topic? They regularly steal from artists and give no credit or compensation. I know they've had a lot of fancy funko ponies and people love them. Would someone not trade or sell to a pony fan who had these, since they bought them from a company that supports stealing from artists?

I hope none of these comments are coming off as combative. I'm genuinely curious how these different types of "theft" are viewed, and why some seem accepted or more justified than others.

[MiRaja]

I just don't think it's right, but I don't think it's right to completely ostracize someone for accidentally owning a recast.

i'm sorry, i'm not attacking, i'm just trying to understand.
it is ok to ostracize someone who knowing owns a recast?
this is why i suddenly feel like a leper. i've own the one girl for about a month, and now i've been labeled into a group.

Spoiler

and well, when i finally got the other doll that i thought was legit it had no paperwork so  he probably isn't but i don't care, cuz i think he's perfect and would have paid what i paid for him recast or not. i was afraid to say anything because of these kinds of reactions. do i feel i was cheated. yeah at first, but it was a lesson learned and its not something i can change now, so i'm moving on from it. i'm honestly more concerned about the exile than anything.

it honestly makes me want to drop the arena altogether, but i love the community here. but i think. ok. people who are anti-recasts will see me in other threads and still be silently judging me for my decisions. i just don't understand. there are people that post things i morally disagree with, but it's not my place to tell them or whatnot.

I don't know what you read wrong there.  I thought it was quite clear.  I said I don't think it's okay to ostracize someone for owning a recast.  Period.  Basically saying, I don't think it's okay to be mean to someone for owning one.  But that doesn't mean I'm going to spend my money with someone who purposely makes recasts.  Or purposely buys them.  It's not be mean, it's just my choice.  I understand situations where an oopsy happens.  I have friends in other doll companies who have bought a doll sold to them as legit and it be a recast.  Whether it is BJD or Bisque.  It happens.  But I have a lot of friends who make dolls as their job, too, and I know the fear they suffer that their work could be directly impacted because someone purposely recasted a doll they made.   It's not anything made at you personally, or anyone for that matter.  I mean, I don't even buy BJD, but if I were, I would not be buying BJD related goods from someone who owned recasts.  Not to be mean to them, but I'd rather spend my money with someone either directly making original dolls or supporting original doll makers.  It's just a choice, it's not a witch hunt. 

To the rest of the thread:

And to me, it is a shades of grey situation, even if I in no way support any sort of recast or remaking of anything.  Someone else was right when they said Hasbro and Mattel have been ripping each other off long enough, and Hasbro started off as a knock off company!  That's the hilarity there, to me, if anyone wants some dolly history.  Mattel was also a company that started up by knocking a bunch of other dolls off, and Barbie only became what she did because she was cheaper than the rest of the similar dolls because Mattel made their toys overseas in HongKong to under sell the competition and actually put several different companies out of business. 

Someone making recast of an 80's MLP for funzies and selling it for, or under value of time and materials is not at all the same as someone recasting a doll, in production, and selling it at still a hefty profit, but still underselling the original artist.  Not that I support either, or own anything of either.  I just don't see it in the same vein.  One is probably sketchy, and the other is just wrong.  I can't fault someone for wanting to experiment and make their take on an out of production toy when I want to make a mold of a dolly's head from the 1930's, and make my own ball jointed body and create my own frankendoll.  Not for profit, but for funzies, out of a toy that's probably older than most people's grandparents, to the point that no patent even exists for the item that I can find ( trust me, I've hunted it down long and hard just for reason's sake ). 

And honestly?  I support corporations as little as possible.  I don't shop from chains well known for ripping off people's art.  Like Hot Topic, like Forever 22.  I don't ever shop with brands who steal cultural, ethnic or other such designs and call it Haute Couture.  Honestly, I shop mostly thrift and wear vintage most of the time, and firmly believe in supporting small business, and that really does trickle down to how I feel about treating artists.  I am person who potentially could become a doll maker.  Currently, I just repair, and I know the sort of work that goes into sculpting and it's. . .hard.  It's not easy to do, and I really emphasize with the people who make such art and I understand why they ask the prices they do.  You're paying for all the time it took them to learn how to make that craft.  Not just for the time in the doll's mock up.  Or the materials.  Or for the small studio's employees to be paid correctly.  I think it's too easy to not think of these small studios as people as many of them are overseas.  We never see them face to face, we don't realize that these are people's lives, and it means they might not be able to pay their bills or feed their families because someone inconsiderate copied something they made. . .  And as I've stated multiple times; I do not even own a single modern BJD.  I've seen a couple I like, but never have purchased because there IS so much to know and there are SO many recasts, and I would definitely be heartbroken to get a fake.  So, think about that:  A lot of people refuse to get into BJD because of the fear of recasts.  I would honestly rather see more happening to restrict people who are recasting, not necessarily those who own recasts. 

[Emerald]

I don't shop from chains well known for ripping off people's art.  Like Hot Topic, like Forever 22.  I don't ever shop with brands who steal cultural, ethnic or other such designs and call it Haute Couture.

I totally respect this.