The MLP Arena

Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: Gator on March 08, 2017, 04:35:40 PM

Title: G4 pretzel
Post by: Gator on March 08, 2017, 04:35:40 PM
I saw a g4 Pretzel yesterday.  I never got into collecting g4's because I want more g1 characters other than Applejack brought back into the spotlight (I know they brought back Moondancer, but I didn't like how grumpy and ugly they made her character on the show).  And I know we have discussed name rights Hasbro may have lost or still have here in the arena, but it makes me upset they make a character named Twist, and a toy named Pretzel, when they could have just added a g4 version of Twist to the show.  Like when on FIM Twilight Sparkle calls a male pony Lickety Split.  Why not just let the real Lickety Split join the show? 
Sorry, just venting.  I wish Hasbro took care of their pony collectors the same way they do with their Transformers collectors with the Generations line.
Oh, one more vent: if auto-correct changes Lickety to Pickett one more time...
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on March 08, 2017, 06:09:17 PM
Same here. But they are not likely too for the most part. It doesn't mean they never toss us a bone. Cuz they do. And besides the G2 crowd has it worse. Their ponies are so ignored by hasbro because g1 fans from what I heard, threw a truly spectacular tantrum.

Anyways kids are Hasbro's favored child when it comes to MLP, the collectors and bronies are just extra cash in their bank account.

Transformers fans have no idea how spoiled by hasbro they truly are. Or maybe they do? I'm not sure.

The Joe fans are getting closer to  being on the verge of forgotten and the Jem fans are like that long lost kid that came back, was given money and will be getting booted back out as quickly as possible.

Besides, talented types can always customize Twist and impo, she doesn't seem right if she's not a so-soft. Same as a rebooted Fizzy not being a twinkle eye, or a rebooted Diamond Dreams not being a merry go round.

Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: LadyMoondancer on March 08, 2017, 11:14:11 PM
Ah yes, the classic G1 character Picketty-Split.  :P

MLP definitely has more separation between generations than Transformers.  But MLP also has a new setting with each generation, while Transformers rehashes the civil war between the Decepticons and the Autobots with every new series, which can get a little boring and predictable if you're an older fan.  Some series have literally NO new characters at all, or next to none.  It's like "Oh gee . . . another version of Bumblebee . . . Yep . . . Wow.  Aaaand they just made up an excuse to recolor him so they could make a recolored toy."  So be careful what you wish for, I guess, lol. Honestly, my favorite Transformer from "Transformers Prime" was Knock Out, a totally new character not based on anyone else.

G4 actually has more references to previous generations than any other gen, in that they transplanted at least three main characters from other gens (G1 Applejack, G3 Rainbow Dash, and G3 Pinkie Pie.  Also Twilight Sparkle is based on G3 Twilight Twinkle.)  Is that a good thing or a bad thing?  To me it's neutral, I guess.  I do think a lot of G1 ponies had great designs, so in that sense yeah, I'd like to see them.  But if Hasbro makes new G4 characters with good designs (like Trixie and Lyra and Seaswirl, I love all three of them), then I am cool with that too.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Taffeta on March 09, 2017, 02:43:27 AM
The way I feel about this now is that if Hasbro had begun G4 with the old ponies reinvented, I would have been  happy. But then I would have seen the episodes, and if the eps were the same characterisations as they are for the mane six, then I would be less happy. In short, I wouldn't want the G4 characters imposed on the appearances of G1 (which is sort of what you said about Moondancer).

I don't like that Rainbow Dash and Pinkie Pie stayed on from gen 3, because if G1 ponies can't, G3 ones definitely shouldn't, and I am very sick of Pinkie Pie over and over by now after so many years of her in various forms! But that's a minor twitch of mine.

I actually like the idea that G4 has its own ponies, characters, personalities. If it wasn't going to start with G1 images and personalities, it is better off doing its own thing. I like Pretzel as she is, I adore Twist and always will. I don't see them as the same pony or even related. It would be like saying Cherry Treats should look exactly like Cherries Jubilee because they both have a cherry theme. At least to me.

I don't like the animation for G4 that much, so I don't know how many of the new characters are or are not in it, but I like that with the pearlies, Hasbro really produced different ponies from the mane 6. I think we should be encouraging them to do this, even if they aren't the G1 ponies.

Although I would love them to do a one off collector set of the ponies as they were originally imagined in G4 form (Surprise, Sparkler, etc). If they couldn't licence the names, they could just do the set without naming them, as some kind of "MLP anniversary" set. But that aside, I'm more ok with G4 having its own ponies with their own characters than the new G4 characters being imposed on G1 appearances.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on March 09, 2017, 03:34:02 AM
At least G1 MLP was not as set in stone in terms of its plot.  It was more about exploring (and most often defending themselves from) the unknown.  They have no real designated enemies and only a few such allies.  Which means they could do anything, and any revival would still have a vast amount of creative freedom while still being faithful to the original (like actually give them a proper origin story).

I'm with Taffeta.  If they weren't going to revive G1, leave G4 as its own thing (as well as Pinkie Pie just needs to go away).  I'm actually afraid after FiM's success following generations will just rehash it over and over again.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Gator on March 09, 2017, 06:31:53 PM
LadyMoondancer, I loved the addition of KnockOut!  I like all the brainy, sciency type bots like Grapple, Ratchet, Shockwave, Wheeljack, etc.  I liked having a new wicked scientist.  I liked the addition of Animated's Bulkhead and Lugnut too.  I like the FIM series, it's just the addition of Apple Jack had me hoping that, in time, maybe I'd see some more old childhood friends return to the screen.  I love Discord.  He's Ponyville's own "Q". 
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Motion-Paradox on March 09, 2017, 06:51:06 PM
Oh! I can explain the bit about Applejack & Spike; originally the plan had been to bring back several G1 Ponies as the main characters: Applejack, Posey, Twilight, Sparkler, Surprise & Firefly, along with Spike. However it had been such a long time since those characters had been released that Hasbro had lost the copyright to most of those names (and I believe some had already been bought by other people), except Applejack & Spike since their names had been used in G3 which renewed the copyright so their designs were mostly unchanged, while the other characters were either given names from G3 that suited their personality, even if the character they shared their name with was completely different (Sparkler to Rarity but mostly using Glory's colour scheme and retaining Sparkler's cutie mark, Firefly to Rainbow Dash since it can sound sporty, Surprise to Pinkie Pie since one of her traits was going to be throwing surprise parties) and some were given mostly new names & designs that were influenced by G3 ponies to create something that both fit who the characters were intended to be and was something distinct enough to be copyrighted (G1 Twilight + G3 Twilight Twinkle = G4 Twilight Sparkle, G1 Posey + G3 Fluttershy= G4 Fluttershy). Simply put, it wasn't any sort of ill-will to the first generation or favouring the third, the copyrights just expired and what they did seemed a good idea at the time.

If you do a search you can find the original concept art but you can find a chart somebody made here: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlpfanart/images/d/d1/History_concept.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111008150105

And this is what it originally would have looked like

Spoiler
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My guess is that when they have a Pony from a previous generation appear in the show they don't actually have the rights to the name, at least not enough to use for merchandise, but since it's show-only they can sort of get away with it as long as they find a new name for any merchandise they make (Hence why G4 Twist is Twist-a-loo in the merchandise). I'm not sure why some end up keeping most of the traits of their original counterpart (Moon Dancer being very similar, apart from how unkempt she had become) while others have almost no traits of their namesakes (Lickety Split, Cherries Jubilee & Twist), but my guess is they had planned the episodes out first and named the characters as a nod to the previous generations regardless of how they looked (The best analogy I can think of is it's like googling your own name and finding somebody else who has a completely different appearance and a career you never would have considered) or they deliberately made them different looking because they had the same issue as with the Mane 6, though with Twist they may just not have known there was a G1 Pony with that name since she wasn't one of the poster ponies of the first generation.

As for some of the other issues, I have to admit I never collected the 3rd generation so I didn't have the years of exposure, but I'm not sure it's quite fair to stick G4 Pinkie with the frustrations caused by G3 Pinkie since they aren't the exact same character, especially since most generations had a core group of characters that were given several re-releases (G2 Didn't last long enough in North America for this to happen, but in Europe a few of the earlier characters received several releases). Though really I think the big issue is that Hasbro has done a lot of experimenting with My Little Pony over the generations and has ended up in a situation where they now have a broad spectrum of tastes to cater to and need multiple lines to cover everyone. Even in the case of people who feel a certain way about a trait of the franchise it won't necessarily be for the same reason: some people dislike the fact that we currently have a core cast of characters because they feel pressured to collect every version of those characters, while others dislike it because they attribute the presence of a core cast to a lack of variety in other releases (I'm not sure either way, since European G2 seemed to have a good balance and I have no idea about G3), some actually like having this arrangement because having fewer non-mane characters makes it easier to collect one of each, while others are more fans of the show(s) than toyline(s) and don't have strong opinions either way, they're simply glad a release of their favourite character is always available no matter when you start watching the show.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: banditpony on March 09, 2017, 07:47:46 PM
I feel like it's better that they don't bring back old characters with personalities. Too many people would grumble that it wasn't how they would want it to be.

However, I wish they'd sort of put more G1 ponies in the background, kind of like little easter eggs.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Motion-Paradox on March 09, 2017, 11:32:24 PM
I feel like it's better that they don't bring back old characters with personalities. Too many people would grumble that it wasn't how they would want it to be.

However, I wish they'd sort of put more G1 ponies in the background, kind of like little easter eggs.

I recommend the comics for that, especially the ones done by Amy Mebberson, I know the Princess Celestia Micro series issue & the Bookworm arc had several (along with other cameos, she has an entire set of Sailor Moon Ponies too)
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: banditpony on March 10, 2017, 03:45:50 AM
I feel like it's better that they don't bring back old characters with personalities. Too many people would grumble that it wasn't how they would want it to be.

However, I wish they'd sort of put more G1 ponies in the background, kind of like little easter eggs.

I recommend the comics for that, especially the ones done by Amy Mebberson, I know the Princess Celestia Micro series issue & the Bookworm arc had several (along with other cameos, she has an entire set of Sailor Moon Ponies too)

Yep that's what I wish the TV show would do.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on March 10, 2017, 12:07:34 PM
I'm sick of people repeating the "lost the rights" lie.  Hasbro did not lose the rights to the names.  Copyrights are essentially immortal.  The trademarks have lapsed, but they could have been renewed if Hasbro so wished.  However, Hasbro did not so wish.

By the time Hasbro asked Faust to come on board for the show (and ONLY the show), they had a pretty good idea that they wanted to start off by repeating ponies from G3.  In fact, they wanted the Core7 ponies to be carried over as main characters and it was all Faust could do to convince them that Cheerilee would be best served as a B character.

That is why Faust couldn't use her original choices.  The plans of the generation were already too far along.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Taffeta on March 11, 2017, 03:08:45 AM
As for some of the other issues, I have to admit I never collected the 3rd generation so I didn't have the years of exposure, but I'm not sure it's quite fair to stick G4 Pinkie with the frustrations caused by G3 Pinkie since they aren't the exact same character, especially since most generations had a core group of characters that were given several re-releases (G2 Didn't last long enough in North America for this to happen, but in Europe a few of the earlier characters received several releases).

Core group actually began with G1, with the Seven Characters, but only in Europe and Oceania, even though North America had the MLP Tales episodes. G1 didn't endure long enough for this to really take effect, but the comics and show were already centered entirely around those characters, and they had begun making rerelease versions - for example, Nurse Sweetheart, Hairdo Starlight, Rollerskates Melody - as well as keeping the Seven Characters in release albeit with stickers not combs and ribbons in the final year. So Hasbro began it then. Not with G2. With G1.

I am pretty sure that G2 in the States also had a few rereleases before the line got dropped. Far more in Europe, obviously. The UK were kind of in the middle - we didn't get all the ponies that the continent did, but we did get more than North America did. I have a strong feeling that Ivy, Lightheart etc did get more than one release over there before the line died.

Generation 3 became really repetitive, but I don't think that it always felt that way. It just became so industriously structured around the core ponies. But my annoyance at Dash and Pinkie's endurance into G4 just seemed like Hasbro saving money or not bothering to come up with new licences and identities because they already had some they'd been hashing to death for years.

It is actually G4 that made Pinkie Pie obnoxious to me. She had a lot releases in G3 but I don't remember her character being annoying or irritating in any regard. In short, if you wanted to ignore her, you could. She was overly pink, but that was about it. Now she's a very in-your-face part of the G4 franchise. To me the series tries to make Pinkie funny, but it's generally forced humour and mostly slapstick and silly. I get that it's for kids, but it just makes me relieved that she's not Surprise. Because that would really irk me.

I genuinely want Hasbro to move away from the mane 6 and make other characters and leave the mane 6 to maybe once every couple of years...but that won't happen. I'm not one of the people who always expect another generation to come for MLP after this one ends, but I suspect this core group idea won't be going away, as it's been there in Hasbro's thoughts since the early 1990s and there's no telling whether some of the fond favourites from G4 now will be rehashed into something obnoxious if that did happen, at which point I am sure there'd be an outcry from G4 fans about characters being "ruined" in the new line.

As a G1 person, I am ultimately glad Hasbro didn't ruin G1 in creating G4. G4 can be what it is, and G1 can stay as it was, and it's all fine. And Pinkie Pie is better off being obnoxious as Pinkie Pie than Surprise, though I won't pretend I would not like G4 more if she didn't exist in it at all.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on March 11, 2017, 06:15:59 AM
Having a core group can be a boon in some ways.  It can provide an anchor to the line for new audiences.  However, G3 (at least to start) understood that had to be in compliment to new release to keep the line from getting stale with the customers they already had.  The fact G4 almost immediately collapsed onto almost nothing but the Mane 6 and princesses is the problem.

And the show's characterization (and especially the fan characterization of them which is seeping more and more into the show) has been rather obnoxious.  I can't stand Rainbow Dash and can only take Pinkie Pie in limited doses.

I don't even want to think of what they would have done with Wind Whistler and Fizzy if they had used them given the trend of taking their most stereotypical trait and cranking it to 11 because volume apparently means depth.  Fizzy's sweet naivete would have been twisted into unreasonable obliviousness and Wind Whistler would be robotic and spouting nonsensical technobabble.  Yeah, I could live without seeing that happen.

G1 is probably best left to G1.  If they do bring it back, I think they need people who better understand the high fantasy genre and that a character can be just as impactful with a whisper as screaming at the top of the lungs.  Which I doubt Hasbro would do since they don't seem to believe girls only care about slice of life.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: LadyMoondancer on March 11, 2017, 08:32:45 AM
Basically Hasbro kept Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash around for G4 because they had already sunk so much time and effort and money (and rereleases) in making them the face of My Little Pony.

Sort of like the Pokemon franchise . . . Pikachu is ALWAYS going to be the flagship character and the one Pokemon that Ash brings with him from region to region in the anime.  Because even to people who don't really collect / watch / pay attention to the franchise, Pikachu is recognizable as the face of Pokemon. Hasbro wants MLP to have its own "Pikachu".

I find G4 Pinkie Pie annoying at times (okay, a lot of the time), but not nearly as annoying as G3 Pinkie Pie.  The way the other ponies treated her like she was perfect and how she was "everyone's best friend" really irked me.  G4 Pinkie Pie at least is not taken seriously by other ponies and her need to be everyone's best friend is often treated as almost a neurosis.  I also flat out hated G3 Pinkie Pie's voice.  (Nothing personal against her VA, who I'm sure is a great person.)
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on March 11, 2017, 10:35:23 AM
Don't get me started on that yellow rat and its being the face of Pokemon has hamstrung every aspect of the brand.

Which actually goes into why I don't like Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash being the faces of MLP.  Pinkie is not just pink, but an unappealing shade of pink (probably not helped by the fact they don't know what saturation control is).  A pony shouldn't make me think of something I go for when I have stomach problems.  Even if they insist on using that particular hue, they could lighten it few (or several) shades to at least make her more pleasantly pastel.

And Rainbow Dash is just a case of personality assassination.  G3 Rainbow Dash started out entertaining with her overuse of "darling" and "rainbows" in an Eva Gabor impression.  Then she devolved into a vapid fashion pony.  Now she's a braindead jock whose episodes are among the most toxic of the series because of her supposed element and she is too stupid to learn something without being beaten over the head with it.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Motion-Paradox on March 11, 2017, 07:33:52 PM
(Taffeta)
Ah, I knew about the characters in the shows and that even some of the earlier first generation Ponies got a few re-releases (Like the original 6) and the North American G2 as well, I just meant that European G2 was the first time they both had chosen a core cast and had the line last long enough afterwards for there to be several releases of them.

(Al-1701)
Well personally I think it's all a matter of how you look at it and in both cases you can interpret the characters either way: G1 had a larger cast of main characters to juggle and some got more spotlight and development than others, and some interpret this as the characters being more subtle or leaving more to the imagination, while others see them as being one-note or difficult to distinguish from each other or somewhere in between the two. From what you see of Wind Whistler you could interpret her the way you're worried she would have been if she had been in G4 or you can interpret her as being a highly logical person who, though she does feel emotion, is not comfortable with it and sometimes hides behind logic to avoid it. Similarly you could see Fizzy as being ditsy and overly talkative (the latter is even something the others complain about her doing in the movie), or you can interpret her as being somebody who is friendly, enthusiastic and determined to hold onto her optimism despite the negative things she's experienced (Even if you ignore the "Jewel Mine Wizard" story from the comics, Dream Valley comes under threat quite a lot and it could be quite easy to get overwhelmed)

G4 on the other hand has a smaller core cast but is able to give them more attention, though this sometimes causes issues when the spotlight is off a character since it can be difficult to show the aspects we see in their spotlight episodes when somebody else's problem is the focus and, however you feel about it, for those episodes you have to remember the "why" from the other episodes. (Spoilers for length)

Spoiler
True, Pinkie is hyper, comes off as immature, over-reacts, and doesn't seems to understand boundaries that most take for granted, but for the most part we're given reasons for the way she behaves. From watching her episodes we know that puts a lot of pressure on herself and tries to hide it so she doesn't spoil somebody else's good mood, she has things that she's good at and loves to do and she sees failing at them as failing as a person, and worries that her friends mean more to her than she does to them. Although she seems incapable of taking things seriously or understanding the gravity of some of the situations she's in, she actually does, it's just that not in the way most would; she doesn't react to threats as the others do because she's more confident that everything will be alright (Interesting trivia, in the Pinkie Sense episode she mentions one that goes off "When something really scary's about to happen" and it's never gone off once in the show) and she does have things that she takes seriously, it's just a different balance than most (really, would it have been that bad if Twilight wasn't surprised when Cadance & Shining told her they were having a baby?)

True she doesn't seem to understand certain norms, like the fact that a formal party is different from the ones she enjoys, and seems to completely miss the negative emotions of others unless she's beaten over the head with it, but we're given a reason for that too; the first 6 years of our lives are the formative years where we put together most of our structure for how things work and are and, well, she didn't spend those years in a normal environment and most of the people she knew had emotions that were really subtle. My guess is some either had really over the top emotions (like one of her sisters does) or it was over compensating once she realised her family wasn't the norm, leaving the middle ground most of us are best with as a sort of mystery zone that she has trouble understanding. But we also see at times that she's smarter than she's usually given credit for (If nothing else she's managed to overcome the limit of Dunbar's Number), can be surprisingly organisned & hardworking, though sometimes her usual image holds her back

Similarly, Rainbow Dash does initially come off as a dumb jock, but we see there's more to her than that, that much of her show boating comes from a lack of confidence, and she initially have a very limiting image of herself that she expands over the course of the series. Part of the reason Rainbow Dash shows off so much is because she's digging for praise as this is part of how she validates herself. This may be why she and Pinkie get along so well, because they are the two most extroverted of their friends and enjoy similar things, including entertaining others, but at the same time have insecurities that they try to keep hidden by pushing their usual image over top of it and gain validation through the reactions of other Ponies to what they do. We also find out in one episode that Rainbow Dash is a kinetic learner, meaning that she has difficulty learning in a classroom environment and needs to be moving in order to learn and that she's actually capable of taking in quite a bit of information when she does (even if you find her test review implausible, before that she notices the things happening around her while keeping track of the conversation she's having), while we don't know how well the schools she went to accommodated her learning style, if they didn't it could explain a lot.

True, Rainbow Dash does end up being faced with a lot of disfunctional people to "test her loyalty", but there's a bit more to it; like her namesake, G4 Rainbow Dash is a very image centered pony (even if it's a different type of image) and can end up being temporarily blinded by the image others project and how well this matches her ideals; this doesn't apply only to errors of inclusion, such as the Wonderbolts in "Rainbow Falls", but errors of exclusion as well such as how she was initially dismissive of Tank because he lacked the physical features she was looking for and later chose him as her pet when she realised he had other qualities that she valued. Yes she does sometimes come off as being Miss-Awesome-Sportsmare-And-Nothing-Else because that's how she saw herself for a long time, through her experiences over the series she's begun to learn that she can be and already is more than that, but she's still learning so it sometimes takes a while, but you can see a shift in her reactions. For example in both Ticket Master & Trade Ya there's a moment near the end where, after spending the entire day pursuing something she dearly wants without noticing the upset she's causing for one of her friends, she finally gets it and celebrates for a moment before being made aware that she's behaved badly; in the first it takes everyone else around her expressing their disapproval for her to realise this, but in the second she's able to reach that conclusion on her own, and perhaps next time she'll be able to realise it before she makes a mistake. All of this also explains cases where she's had to live through being on a receiving end of her behaviour to understand what she's done wrong; she learns by doing and experiencing, and sympathy beyond recognising bullying and betrayal is something she's just started to learn fairly recently, she's getting there but she also has a lifetime of conditioning to overcome.

Simply put, both series have their strong and weak points and in some cases share them: Both have a mixture of adventure & slice of life stories (Friendship is Magic began including more adventure stories than it originally had), they both have fun characters in an interesting setting the audience wants to know more about....they also both have product placement of mixed subtlety and destroyed somebody's house to introduce a new one. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but they don't appeal to the exact same sensibilities, though I prefer to focus on the aspects of things I do find appealing and I admit that once something has won me over it's difficult to make me dislike it
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on March 12, 2017, 11:22:18 AM
I think you're missing my point that these characters have been boiling down to the point they don't have those nuances anymore.  They might have at first, but they have fallen by the wayside in favor of cranking up the traits that are popular.

That's what gives us episodes like Filli Vanilli for Pinkie Pie.  Her behavior makes no sense beyond her being the LOLRANDOM pony.  She, as a person, would not do that to Fluttershy.  It is the behavior of a walking gag machine with no sense of empathy (which, ironically, she supposedly learned to have just two episodes prior).

And Rainbow Dash is just insufferable.  You can also tell they have to dumb everything down when she is the star.  Wonderbolt Academy could have been a truly character moment for her, but it would have required her to use that mass between her ears, so the lesson was dumbed down to the basic "be loyal to your friends" lesson all of her episodes teach.  They had to completely sabotage the Equestria Games arc just for her to have her crisis of element episode.

FiM's characters aren't deep or complicated.  They're just loud.  Which is fine most of the time in a slice of life comedy show.  Sheldon Cooper is the same way, but that's what makes the humor in The Bang Theory work so well.  Unfortunately the writers of FiM get in their own way as they too often act smarter than they really are.

G1 feels like they had some good ideas for the characters provided to them, but they never had the resources and ran out of time.  Friendship is Magic has been given an embarrassment resources and time, and yet can't even make Twilight becoming a princess relevant.

So, I take the current show one episode at a time (I've found that's the best way anymore) and hope the next generation will get the substance to go with the style.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: airtseuqe on May 21, 2017, 10:19:39 AM
Hurling abuse because someone dares to  have a differing opinion from yours is not a welcome approach at the Arena. Learn to disagree without being disagreeable. -SDS
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on May 21, 2017, 10:52:15 AM
I think you're missing my point that these characters have been boiling down to the point they don't have those nuances anymore.  They might have at first, but they have fallen by the wayside in favor of cranking up the traits that are popular.

That's what gives us episodes like Filli Vanilli for Pinkie Pie.  Her behavior makes no sense beyond her being the LOLRANDOM pony.  She, as a person, would not do that to Fluttershy.  It is the behavior of a walking gag machine with no sense of empathy (which, ironically, she supposedly learned to have just two episodes prior).

And Rainbow Dash is just insufferable.  You can also tell they have to dumb everything down when she is the star.  Wonderbolt Academy could have been a truly character moment for her, but it would have required her to use that mass between her ears, so the lesson was dumbed down to the basic "be loyal to your friends" lesson all of her episodes teach.  They had to completely sabotage the Equestria Games arc just for her to have her crisis of element episode.

FiM's characters aren't deep or complicated.  They're just loud.  Which is fine most of the time in a slice of life comedy show.  Sheldon Cooper is the same way, but that's what makes the humor in The Bang Theory work so well.  Unfortunately the writers of FiM get in their own way as they too often act smarter than they really are.

G1 feels like they had some good ideas for the characters provided to them, but they never had the resources and ran out of time.  Friendship is Magic has been given an embarrassment resources and time, and yet can't even make Twilight becoming a princess relevant.

So, I take the current show one episode at a time (I've found that's the best way anymore) and hope the next generation will get the substance to go with the style.
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

That was pretty rude.  :mad:
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Sunset on May 21, 2017, 10:54:25 AM
I feel like it's better that they don't bring back old characters with personalities. Too many people would grumble that it wasn't how they would want it to be.

However, I wish they'd sort of put more G1 ponies in the background, kind of like little easter eggs.

I recommend the comics for that, especially the ones done by Amy Mebberson, I know the Princess Celestia Micro series issue & the Bookworm arc had several (along with other cameos, she has an entire set of Sailor Moon Ponies too)

I absolutely agree with this.  But I don't even need them in the show.  Just the toys.  How come we have like a 100 plus non-show blind bag characters and non of them are g1?  It's not like it's harder to trademark "Glory the unicorn" than "Banana Fluff"!


I'm sick of people repeating the "lost the rights" lie.  Hasbro did not lose the rights to the names.  Copyrights are essentially immortal.  The trademarks have lapsed, but they could have been renewed if Hasbro so wished.  However, Hasbro did not so wish.

By the time Hasbro asked Faust to come on board for the show (and ONLY the show), they had a pretty good idea that they wanted to start off by repeating ponies from G3.  In fact, they wanted the Core7 ponies to be carried over as main characters and it was all Faust could do to convince them that Cheerilee would be best served as a B character.

That is why Faust couldn't use her original choices.  The plans of the generation were already too far along.

This is my interpretation of what happened also.

Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on May 21, 2017, 10:57:58 AM
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

Her saying she quit if the Wonderbolts didn't care about basic safety?  The choice was made so painfully obvious should have to be comatose to not do that?  The Wonderbolts were portrayed so badly in that episode.  You are supposedly a squadron of precision formation fliers, yet you're completely oblivious to one of your students ignoring the well being of her fellow fliers and will likely get someone killed if you put her in the air.

If Rainbow Dash was a character who could learn more than the most basic lesson, they could have done more.  Toss out the pointless Pinkie Pie scenes and have Lightning Dust in trouble because she reckless.  Have Rainbow Dash's dilemma be leave Lightning Bliss to save her own career or take the chance of going down with her to teach her to work as part of team.  Have Rainbow Dash's triumph be saving Lightning Dust from expulsion to demonstrate true loyalty is when you are willing to go out on a limb for others even if it could harm you.  However, Rainbow Dash is too stupid for that, so Lightning Bliss is just a jerk who needs her comeuppance.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Carrehz on May 21, 2017, 12:40:32 PM
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

Dude, chill. People can have different opinions, if they don't like it, they don't like it, doesn't make them an idiot.

If you do a search you can find the original concept art but you can find a chart somebody made here: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlpfanart/images/d/d1/History_concept.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111008150105

Sorry to nitpick, but that art of the G1 ponies by Lauren Faust isn't concept art for FiM, it's fanart. She drew those before she started working with Hasbro and took them off her dA after she got the job. I suppose it's arguably pre-concept art in a way since those were the ponies she originally wanted to use for for the show, but it's still not the same thing as actual concept art :p Sorry to sound pedantic.

The Joe fans are getting closer to  being on the verge of forgotten and the Jem fans are like that long lost kid that came back, was given money and will be getting booted back out as quickly as possible.

hehe, I like this description :P even though it's kind of sad that Hasbro are like that, heh.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Stormness_1 on May 21, 2017, 07:10:29 PM
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

Wow, that's not cool. Calm down, this isn't that 'other site' where the bronies hang out. We're more tolerant of opinions here, pun not intended.

Back on topic, if you're looking for G1 shout-outs, I second the comics. Waaay better than the show IMO, and there's no name-stealing ponies! That said, the name-stealing thing isn't new to G4. G3 Applejack or Cotton Candy, anyone?
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Nemesis on May 21, 2017, 07:20:46 PM
I'm a big Transformers fan, and I will agree that G1 TF gets a lot more attention than any of Hasbro's other "classic" properties. I really do wish MLP could be similar, but I think the difference really just boils down to how things played out within marketing and the respective fanbases. :shrug:

Fun fact: when TF was first truly "rebooted" (as Beast Wars, back in the 90s), basically EVERYTHING was changed. No returning characters, and no references to the original series aside from a handful of names and some similar character archtypes. A lot of G1 fans were around on the prehistoric 90s interwebs, and (as fanbases have always done, since the dawn of time) they had a lot of heated discussion about the reboot. Some people started theorizing as to whether or not BW existed in the same canon as G1. At the time, the show's writers had no intent to tie the two series together, but when they saw the fanbase talking... they listened. Suddenly, BW was a direct continuation of G1, and the original characters became critical plot elements.

MLP... Yeah, not so much. When you look at G2 and G3, they truly had nothing in common with their predecessors. Hasbro wasn't shooting for older fans--they were just selling toy ponies to a new generation of little kids. Up until G4, adult MLP fans were not really considered in marketing. G4 turned that on its head with its unexpectedly broad fanbase, brony subculture, and active followers. Plus, G4 is actually the closest thing to G1 in terms of story and setting, and basically the only generation of ponies since the 80s to even reference the original characters, let alone include them in the show (with the exception of Spike, of course).

What can we take from all this? That in a post-G4 world, Hasbro will most likely take the adult MLP fanbase into far greater consideration than in the past. :) Even when G4 fizzles out, I think MLP will be treated with something closer to the care that has been given to the TF franchise.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Carrehz on May 22, 2017, 08:08:34 AM
That said, the name-stealing thing isn't new to G4. G3 Applejack or Cotton Candy, anyone?

Heck, the reused names thing goes back to G1! Baby Half Note vs Rockin' Beats Half Note, Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty, Tabby vs Little Tabby, etc etc. It bugs me but it is what it is, haha.
(G2 has some reused names too - Sundance, [Prince] Firefly, Melody, Morning Glory, etc. Not to mention how every single gen has at least one pony called Cupcake ^_~)
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: LadyMoondancer on May 22, 2017, 10:07:20 AM
Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on May 22, 2017, 10:18:57 AM
Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.

See, Catnap would have made more sense.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Dragonflitter on May 22, 2017, 10:57:09 AM
I like in one recent episode where they did a G1 reference but made it part of Equestria history. Twilight was reading a fairy tale book to some fillies called Gusty The Great. And the unicorn on the cover was our favorite white and green gal. :D

Rather than seeing G1 characters in FiM, I'd like more historical refs like that. Very cute. ^.^
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Luxrayx on May 22, 2017, 11:51:18 AM
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.
"objectively an idiot". Read your words again  :lookround:
This is completely off topic, but I'm pretty sure there's no such thing. Unless you're talking about the greek idiotes, meaning a person with no interest in politics, which Al may or may not objectively be.

Anyway, this isn't an objective board, but if you want to explain why you subjectively feel the way you do about G4 characters compared to G1 (...what the thread is actually about), it could certainly add to the discussion :)
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Carrehz on May 22, 2017, 01:06:02 PM
Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.

See, Catnap would have made more sense.

Catnap is such a cute name for her!! I always thought Pink Dreams was a bit of an.. odd name. -cough- I mean, I like it, but you know. (All of the ponies in that set had sort of questionable names, though - Pillow Talk, anyone? :P)
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on May 22, 2017, 01:17:05 PM
Pillow Talk makes me giggle, right along with Night Cap
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Taffeta on May 25, 2017, 09:02:01 AM
That said, the name-stealing thing isn't new to G4. G3 Applejack or Cotton Candy, anyone?

Heck, the reused names thing goes back to G1! Baby Half Note vs Rockin' Beats Half Note, Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty, Tabby vs Little Tabby, etc etc. It bugs me but it is what it is, haha.
(G2 has some reused names too - Sundance, [Prince] Firefly, Melody, Morning Glory, etc. Not to mention how every single gen has at least one pony called Cupcake ^_~)
Repeated Name Syndrome is predominately a US disease. We don't have Salty the Big Brother or Little Tabby the Teeny Weeny pony here, we have Tug and Little Lullabye. Repetitive names are avoidable because other names that are official do exist. Gingerbread is the only name I can think of that the UK repeated where the US didn't. In my collection there is only one Salty, and she's a sea pony ;)

It makes me sad that UK people are so dependent on the US names, even when so many of them repeat horribly. Just a personal twitch of mine. Don't mind me.

Going back a bit, in terms of the core 6/7, the idea was there in G1. The toy line didn't perpetuate long enough to go nuts, maybe, beyond the end of the US line, but the concept of everything around the core seven was a concept from the Seven Characters onwards. You can tell this by the fact even the UK comic began to feature those ponies to the near exclusion of anything and anyone else. But I'm glad G1 didn't get a chance to go down that line en masse. I mention this simply because there is a difference between rereleases of characters like the first 6 earlier in the line, and the concerted attempt to create a core cast in 1992. Rereleases are not the same as a core group.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Carrehz on May 25, 2017, 10:35:48 AM
It makes me sad that UK people are so dependent on the US names, even when so many of them repeat horribly. Just a personal twitch of mine. Don't mind me.

Ehhh, personally I just use the names I prefer or which are more familiar to me. I like Salty better than Tug so that's what I call him; the origin of the name doesn't make much difference to me. For G4 Cupcake I prefer her alternate name Sugarcup so I call her that. etc, etc. (I say "alt name" since I'm not too sure when/where they changed her name, if it's a US vs UK thing or what, I've never been too clear on that..)

I get your point of view, though; I'm like that with Sylvanian Families (always twitch a bit when I see 'em called Calico Critters :P).
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Taffeta on May 25, 2017, 10:49:18 AM
It makes me sad that UK people are so dependent on the US names, even when so many of them repeat horribly. Just a personal twitch of mine. Don't mind me.

Ehhh, personally I just use the names I prefer or which are more familiar to me. I like Salty better than Tug so that's what I call him; the origin of the name doesn't make much difference to me. For G4 Cupcake I prefer her alternate name Sugarcup so I call her that. etc, etc. (I say "alt name" since I'm not too sure when/where they changed her name, if it's a US vs UK thing or what, I've never been too clear on that..)

I get your point of view, though; I'm like that with Sylvanian Families (always twitch a bit when I see 'em called Calico Critters :P).
In a real sense, I respect the fact it's up to every collector what they call their ponies. But the UK history and such is so much in danger of being lost completely because everyone defaults to the US story and the US names and the US set info and accessories and whatever that it makes me sad. There are already more US collectors than there are of us, and I just feel like if we don't protect our pony heritage, it disappears. If we don't do it, who will? As a historian, and a geek, those things bother me. But I know I'm fighting a losing battle. Still, I've been fighting it for the last 20 years, so I don't see me giving up any time soon...
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on May 25, 2017, 03:07:14 PM
As an American, I think the UK was far better at naming ponies.

Though, I would completely rip out the Big Brother/Adventure Boys and make six different male ponies with more adventurous themes (a spelunker, lumberjack, desert nomad, arctic explorer, swamp rat, and diver).
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on May 26, 2017, 07:30:51 AM
As an American, I think the UK was far better at naming ponies.

Though, I would completely rip out the Big Brother/Adventure Boys and make six different male ponies with more adventurous themes (a spelunker, lumberjack, desert nomad, arctic explorer, swamp rat, and diver).

So...GI Joe?
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on May 27, 2017, 03:37:56 AM
As an American, I think the UK was far better at naming ponies.

Though, I would completely rip out the Big Brother/Adventure Boys and make six different male ponies with more adventurous themes (a spelunker, lumberjack, desert nomad, arctic explorer, swamp rat, and diver).

So...GI Joe?
Better than the Village Ponies.  And it would fit the "Adventure Boys" name the UK and Europe gave them.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Carrehz on May 27, 2017, 04:38:42 AM
Aw, I like the Village Ponies ^_~ I don't think GI Joe ponies would've fit in as nicely.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on May 27, 2017, 09:03:05 AM
Aw, I like the Village Ponies ^_~ I don't think GI Joe ponies would've fit in as nicely.

I like the Village Ponies too. :D

Maybe they could have as a Charity Set for Veterans?
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: LadyMoondancer on May 27, 2017, 09:33:48 PM
I'm bitter towards G.I. Joe at the moment because IDW combined their G.I. Joe and TF comics in a shared universe, and now the Transformers comics are crawling with Joes.  Nooooo!
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on May 28, 2017, 03:41:28 AM
They're not even G.I. Joe ponies, they're not soldiers.  They're just based more on particular environments (caves and mountains, forests, deserts, tundra, swamp, and the ocean) rather than hobbies and roll play.  For one thing, I find that easier to write for as they would have skills that are actually useful to the ponies in their hostile world than Baseball and Football.
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Nemesis on May 28, 2017, 09:30:49 AM
I'm bitter towards G.I. Joe at the moment because IDW combined their G.I. Joe and TF comics in a shared universe, and now the Transformers comics are crawling with Joes.  Nooooo!

Eek. I mean, I guess G1 TF and G.I. Joe shared a universe, but I still wouldn't want constant cameos in either... o_0; And I actually love both franchises! Hadn't been keeping up with the comics, so I had no idea. I call marketing gimmick.

Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.

See, Catnap would have made more sense.

My Pink Dreams is now officially renamed Catnap. XD

Also, I don't think Pink Dreams is really a name worthy of re-use. :facepalm:
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Leave a Whisper on May 28, 2017, 09:35:27 AM
They're not even G.I. Joe ponies, they're not soldiers.  They're just based more on particular environments (caves and mountains, forests, deserts, tundra, swamp, and the ocean) rather than hobbies and roll play.  For one thing, I find that easier to write for as they would have skills that are actually useful to the ponies in their hostile world than Baseball and Football.

Oh I know. I was just teasing a bit. Sorry Al.  ^^;
Title: Re: G4 pretzel
Post by: Al-1701 on May 28, 2017, 10:03:30 AM
I know, but I think we got a little too literal with it.

Actually, my idea for male ponies has a lot to do with the environment.

The earth ponies represent different climates.  The unicorns (the U.K. Mountain Boys only with horns) represent elements.  The pegasi represent weather systems.
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