The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: Mana Minori on March 07, 2020, 09:29:08 PM
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Maybe it’s just me, but has anyone really been bothered by the genuine lack of villain toys in the first 3 generations? I know that MLP is a brand for little girls, and that the little boy’s toylines (TMNT, GI Joe, Transformers) we’re always sold with villains to fight against. Are little girls not interested in putting their pretty ponies against the villain of the week? G1’s tv series had a LOT of villains that could’ve been made into toys. But we really only see villain toys in the pony brand in the very late g4 game. Almost near the end of its life span, with the Guardian of Harmony line. And even then, it was really only Queen Chrysalis. There were scarce Nightmare Moon toys made before then, but Princess Luna non-villainized got the lion’s share of the spotlight.
How do you think little girls would react to more villains in the toyline? What villains would you have liked to see for earlier generations?
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The Care Bears had a villain (Coldheart), the Moondreamers had a villain set (Scowlene & the Sleep Creeps), & Jem's villainous rivals I'm sure had dolls too, so why MLP had none until G4 bugs me quite a bit. Even reformed villains like Catrina were naver made into toys, let alone the Witches & Tirek (or however it's spelt, sounds like Tirek anyway). I also think G3 would have been a far better show with a few villains adding a sense of adventure & danger to the whole thing (on that note the one Custom I'm most likely to commission is of G3 Spike). I have a Chrysalis, a Nightmare Moon, a GOH dark changeling & a GOH Discord, plus Tempest Shadow.
So yep, villain toys should totally be available for girls' toys; they already have been made & sold by other toy lines.
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Villain toys in 80s shows in general were pretty uncommon. You had to use your imagination a lot XD i was glad Duchess Ravenwaves had a doll, and so did the Peculiar Purple Pieman of Porcupine Peak and Sour Grapes.
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It always depends on the franchise and company but in general I find the lack of villain toys for girls bothersome. I think the fashion doll world has less of a problem with that because each character is basically a new set of clothes, so you gotta sell that stuff.
But in general there is this idea that boys can enjoy evil characters and use the heroic characters to fight them, while girls are supposedly against evil characters and want them all to be nice and being friends. Some research contradicts this but not all. So I guess it's a fine line and depends on how a character is represented.
And of course it is also partly tied to how kids are socialized. Many people expect boys to be aggressive and into fighting because boys exhibit more of these tendencies. But why the heck would we want to encourage that? That's another question.
By the same token, I believe many girls find conflict in their media to be exiting. Conflict is what drives a story and makes things interesting. Girls want to re-enact that with their toys, I'm sure. No matter if they choose to defeat the baddies or redeem them. That should be up to them.
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Any of your other toys could be a villain though. I thought it was a good opportunity to play with other toys like small teddy bear with unfortunate expression, dishevelled Barbie etc.
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Having 'villain toys' suggests a cohesive canon overriding the narrative of a generation, which no generation up till G4 has.
You'd think Jem would be a good comparison because it's the same company. But in reality I'm not sure. The difference is that where G1 MLP eps were created to promote the pony toys, and everything else was invented by the scriptwriters, in Jem the dolls for the Holograms and the Misfits (and Stingers, but they never made it to retail) were created by Hasbro. It's not a "villains were made in Jem and not in MLP" argument unless you want to go back to the very basis of the toyline itself.
In other words, I'm saying in G1 (and probably in G3 as well), if Hasbro had wanted MLP to have villains they would have created them as toys at the start. What happens in the tv series (or the comic) is irrelevant because actually they weren't created by Hasbro in the way the Misfits were.
Using another contemporary show, SheRa has a ton of villains that made production - because they were extra members of the MOTU line. But on the other side, in SheRa, you get a core cast of good guys, some of whom are not made, which take precedence over many of the actual existing toys (sound at all familiar?). Although some of them get a single episode later on, many of the later characters were not that significant compared to Madam Razz and Broom and so on. Sure, we had Catra and Entrapta and such, but it's also interesting how Shadow Weaver was basically overlooked, despite the fact she's in a ton more episodes than Netossa and co. (BUt that is Mattel, so comparing with Hasbro/MLP is a bit questionable I grant).
Also, G4 doesn't really have villains, so much as reformed villains, as far as I'm aware. Luna is certainly not a villain. Starlight Glimmer and Sunset Shimmer became toys after not being villains any more. Discord (if he counts, different line) isn't a villain any more (apparently). Maneiac and Chrysalis I am not sure about, since I don't watch the show, but still. In general, G4 villains focus on two factors - reformed characters and equine villains. In the meantime - like SheRa - it actually undermines regular pony characters that could be put into production (but aren't), and at the same time produces toys of ponies not seen in the animation (or only as background characters.)
But there's the usual problem with this whole point as an argument. It depends on comparing the animated adventures of MLP across 4 generations, where animation only matters in one. It's anachronistic to apply the rules of G4 to earlier generations, not to mention unhelpful.
G2 has no animation - how can they even be discussed in that context?
G3 was aimed at a younger audience, but I don't actually remember many real villains even in their animation, let alone the toyline.
And even in MLP Tales from G1, there aren't exactly villains. Teddy, Lancer and Ace were all not produced, and nor was Miss Hackney, although they were key to the cast...even if Teddy is a problem child, it's hard to suggest they are any of them 'villain' characters, so their lack of production is either because they weren't created by Hasbro, but by the storytellers, or they didn't make it past the prototype stages.
If we want to have an actual discussion about whether MLP should have had villain toys, that's another matter going right back into the core of Hasbro. But I also agree with Artie, that they didn't need to have villain toys. In older generations there was this thing called a child's imagination. I certainly didn't have any problems coming up with my own narratives and bad guys if I needed them growing up. And the TV series had zero bearing on my influences as a pony child. For me it was the comic, and the comic had many good and bad guys that were not made into toys, but I guess I just understood that was because those were just stories about ponies...and the idea was for me to make up my own. Which I did.
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Ooh, toy-original villains is an idea I hadn’t considered before! I think I actually like that better than just making toys of the show villains. A pony that’s given a brief backcard story that says something about their powers or habits or likes, but not motives or backstory or anything, which is left up to interpretation. Maybe a set with some unifying gimmick that shows they’re part of an established evil group?
Also, Loop de La was the villain of my childhood herd, since I immediately lost all her removable shoes and her having one permanent shoe drove me crazy. Her crown made her an evil queen in my mind, and she’d kick people in the face with her one shoe.
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Don't you just mean the first gen since G2 has no tv show and G3 (to my knowledge) has no villains?
No it doesn't bother me.
That being said, just because its a little girls toytoon doesn't mean it shouldn't have had villains. I mean the Jem line has the Misfits, Lady Lovelylocks has Ravenhair (and man she's expensive!) She-Ra has Catra, and Moondreamers has Queen Scowlene and her Sleep Creeps.
I'm not sure if Rainbowbrite had toys of Murky n Lurky, and I don't think Care Bears ever had any toys of their villains? I could be wrong though.
On that note, I could see the villains going for crazy prices these days. So even if I did want any of them, I couldn't bring myself to buy them.
Post Merge: March 08, 2020, 07:39:47 AM
Ooh, toy-original villains is an idea I hadn’t considered before! I think I actually like that better than just making toys of the show villains. A pony that’s given a brief backcard story that says something about their powers or habits or likes, but not motives or backstory or anything, which is left up to interpretation. Maybe a set with some unifying gimmick that shows they’re part of an established evil group?
Also, Loop de La was the villain of my childhood herd, since I immediately lost all her removable shoes and her having one permanent shoe drove me crazy. Her crown made her an evil queen in my mind, and she’d kick people in the face with her one shoe.
:lol:
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Oh, I wish they'd made toys of the villains. Even if they were show-original characters, no reason they couldn't make the leap to the toy-verse! Hey, the Bushwoolies were in the cartoon before they made toys of them, right?
But, yeah, villain toys are usually thin on the ground. Especially for girly lines. :( But I would kill for toys of the witches and Tirac. Especially Tirac! That'd be so cool.
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Oh, I wish they'd made toys of the villains. Even if they were show-original characters, no reason they couldn't make the leap to the toy-verse! Hey, the Bushwoolies were in the cartoon before they made toys of them, right?
But, yeah, villain toys are usually thin on the ground. Especially for girly lines. :( But I would kill for toys of the witches and Tirac. Especially Tirac! That'd be so cool.
Agreed !
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(on that note the one Custom I'm most likely to commission is of G3 Spike).
Fun fact! When I was a kid in mid-g3, I sent a letter to Hasbro recommending they make a Spike toy. I cited their past Spike toys from G1, and probably noted that I thought a single boy might be nice. I got a letter back on Mr. Potato Head stationary thanking me for my interest and letting me know that product design is a lengthy process with a lot of different inputs (in other words, “No.”)
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Buttons and Galaxy were my villains lol
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I started working on a G1 pony villian, although in my stories I made her good and apprenticed her to the Moochik. She's not finished because I'm having trouble with her face. I'm going to go with red yarn hair instead of sculpted hair.
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I started working on a G1 pony villian, although in my stories I made her good and apprenticed her to the Moochik. She's not finished because I'm having trouble with her face. I'm going to go with red yarn hair instead of sculpted hair.
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Draggle is one of my favorites.
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(on that note the one Custom I'm most likely to commission is of G3 Spike).
Fun fact! When I was a kid in mid-g3, I sent a letter to Hasbro recommending they make a Spike toy. I cited their past Spike toys from G1, and probably noted that I thought a single boy might be nice. I got a letter back on Mr. Potato Head stationary thanking me for my interest and letting me know that product design is a lengthy process with a lot of different inputs (in other words, “No.”)
Not happy at Hasbro for that!!!
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I think at the time of G1 Hasbro didn't really care about the cartoon as long as it drove toy sales, so they didn't feel the need to bring the animated episodes into the toyline and just opted for the standard conventions of combs, accessories or outfits while the animated ponies were all about adventure and peril. Which is kind of a shame since I'm sure at least some of the girls would probably love to have their ponies battle toy versions of Grogar or Tirac or Lavan. Heck, some of the female villains could probably work well as regular girls' toys, I'm pretty sure Reeka and Draggle would make cute rag dolls, or maybe something closer to the regular MLP toyline like a brushable Porcina.
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I think at the time of G1 Hasbro didn't really care about the cartoon as long as it drove toy sales, so they didn't feel the need to bring the animated episodes into the toyline and just opted for the standard conventions of combs, accessories or outfits while the animated ponies were all about adventure and peril. Which is kind of a shame since I'm sure at least some of the girls would probably love to have their ponies battle toy versions of Grogar or Tirac or Lavan. Heck, some of the female villains could probably work well as regular girls' toys, I'm pretty sure Reeka and Draggle would make cute rag dolls, or maybe something closer to the regular MLP toyline like a brushable Porcina.
I always thought Reeka could be a great cabbage patch custom. She looks like one.
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I think the G1 show would have been better if it had recurring villains. They can do a bit more with the villains if they're regularly appearing characters instead of one-offs. Like G1 Transformers didn't have to pause to explain why Soundwave had smaller robots stuffed in his chest; kids watching the show knew that he turned into a tape player and was full of casseticons.
Tirek or Grogar would have been great "regular" villains. Or Catrina; just have her run away plotting revenge at the end of EfC instead of doing a heel-turn.
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To each their own, but I don't mind Monster-of-the-week approaches. We got variety.
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(on that note the one Custom I'm most likely to commission is of G3 Spike).
Fun fact! When I was a kid in mid-g3, I sent a letter to Hasbro recommending they make a Spike toy. I cited their past Spike toys from G1, and probably noted that I thought a single boy might be nice. I got a letter back on Mr. Potato Head stationary thanking me for my interest and letting me know that product design is a lengthy process with a lot of different inputs (in other words, “No.”)
Not happy at Hasbro for that!!!
They were at least nice about it. Getting a reply at all was really neat!
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I like Tirac better as a one-off (I feel like he'd have lost something if he was a recurring villain).. not sure about Grogar... but idk why they never brought back the witches. They'd be perfect recurring villains.
I like the villain-of-the-day thing too, though. Like LaW said, the variety was nice ^^ But I do wish Catrina and Rep had appeared again.. I love those two.
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Probably they just figured they wouldn't sell well.
I all of the 1980s villain toys that I can think of- are to this day, the lowest in value and least desired- then AND now. Coldhart figure for Carebears, Evil Scowlene for Moondreamers, Purple Pieman and Sour Grapes for Strawberry Shortcake... pretty much any "girl toy line" I can think of. EXCEPT Lady Lovelylocks villain- Duchess Ravenwaves.
Why? Because those first mentioned baddies were ugly and/or super unappealing. I mean come on- what kid wants to play with these hideous and deformed looking dolls?
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On the other hand, Duchess Ravenwaves- a bad guy doll that was prettier than the protagonist- sold (and still sells) JUST FINE. Everyone wants her.
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So the lesson is- unattractive unappealing bad guys probably won't sell well. But cool looking or appealing attractive baddies do just fine.
I think if they had made Catrina a nice looking toy- she would have sold like gangbusters. Or even Tirac. But probably not that witch or her daughters... (sorry forget their names).
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I was thinking of Scowlene too, hehe. I like her, but I can see why she wouldn't be popular x) and yeah, I was already thinking that the witches probably wouldn't be big sellers unless they "prettied" them up a bit (not that I'd want that, but, y'know).
It sucks to remember, but ultimately Hasbro are gonna go with what'll sell best to the general public (and what parents'll buy their kids... you know how silly some parents can be), not just us collector folks. (Although, hey, Hasbro, if you're reading this and looking for ideas on collector toys to make... ;))
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Purple Pieman! I loved him as a kid, and as an adult I'm sad I sold him in my college years.
I would also like to give a shout out to Nastina from Rose Petal Place. She was a fabulous doll that I had forgotten all about, and also one who was really fun to play with.
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I found Scowlene at a thrift store a few years ago and her sculpt is amazing, a work of art. I can see why kids would choose the pretty dolls over her gnarled form, though!
Totally agree that selling a conventionally attractive villain is going to attract more kids than a grotesque villain. Hasbro didn't have any problem selling Cobra toys or Decepticon toys, because their villains aesthetically matched their heroes. The witches were not toys I would have gone for as a kid, their designs are gross (intentionally, to easily convey to kids that they're evil). But I would have bought Grogar, Tirek, Catrina, or even Nightshade if they gave him a symbol. ;)
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I was thinking of Scowlene too, hehe. I like her, but I can see why she wouldn't be popular x) and yeah, I was already thinking that the witches probably wouldn't be big sellers unless they "prettied" them up a bit (not that I'd want that, but, y'know).
I think that Reeka and Draggle dolls could probably work if they were sold as a "Garbage Pail Kids" thing where a toy is supposed to be visually unappealing, there were lots of those in the 1980s.
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I found Scowlene at a thrift store a few years ago and her sculpt is amazing, a work of art. I can see why kids would choose the pretty dolls over her gnarled form, though!
Totally agree that selling a conventionally attractive villain is going to attract more kids than a grotesque villain. Hasbro didn't have any problem selling Cobra toys or Decepticon toys, because their villains aesthetically matched their heroes. The witches were not toys I would have gone for as a kid, their designs are gross (intentionally, to easily convey to kids that they're evil). But I would have bought Grogar, Tirek, Catrina, or even Nightshade if they gave him a symbol. ;)
You mean like this???
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(https://www.hqg1c.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-Ponybookworm/knightshade1-pic_143.htm)
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Ohhh, that custom looks great!
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Purple Pieman! I loved him as a kid, and as an adult I'm sad I sold him in my college years.
I would also like to give a shout out to Nastina from Rose Petal Place. She was a fabulous doll that I had forgotten all about, and also one who was really fun to play with.
Fortunately you can get him back for about $10-
The grotesque villains certainly have more appeal to adult collectors, and the rare kid. Although I know my sisters and I did NOT care for Purple Pieman.
I guess its kinda problematic that they tend to make villains for little girl shows ugly distorted characters when in real life, the worst villains usually have a pleasant exterior. (With the exception of Lady Lovelylocks). Kinda taught the wrong lesson. ALthough I guess shows back then were more about selling toys than teaching lessons...
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Tbqh villain toys are often less likely to be made in girls and boys toylines. With Joe, Transformers and Jem being some of the exceptions.
Post Merge: March 10, 2020, 09:13:20 AM
Purple Pieman! I loved him as a kid, and as an adult I'm sad I sold him in my college years.
I would also like to give a shout out to Nastina from Rose Petal Place. She was a fabulous doll that I had forgotten all about, and also one who was really fun to play with.
Fortunately you can get him back for about $10-
The grotesque villains certainly have more appeal to adult collectors, and the rare kid. Although I know my sisters and I did NOT care for Purple Pieman.
I guess its kinda problematic that they tend to make villains for little girl shows ugly distorted characters when in real life, the worst villains usually have a pleasant exterior. (With the exception of Lady Lovelylocks). Kinda taught the wrong lesson. ALthough I guess shows back then were more about selling toys than teaching lessons...
There are plenty of creepy/ugly villains in boys and gender neutral franchises whether they were made into toys or not as well.
Most of the Captain Planet villains. The villains from C.O.P.S., He-Man, ThunderCats, David the Gnome.
And there are some nice looking or cool looking villains in all three.
She-Ra, JatH, G.I. Joe, Rainbowbrite, Care Bears, MLP n Friends. ATLA, TLoK, Transformers, Gargoyles.
Some villains are just plain looking or goofy looking. Rainbowbrite, Phineas and Ferb, Codename: Kids Next Door, Gummy Bears, The Wuzzles.
It depends on the art style and general tone of the show I think.
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Ohhh, that custom looks great!
Cheers!!! Knightshade was one of the first Customs I just HAD to make!!! He wasn't a vallain per se, like Zeb; he was more the naive fellow led down the wrong path by Zeb & the shadow-eater (forget his name lol). Once he's separated from Zeb, he can once again be a decent Pony. Oh & my canon is the cartoons were the Ponies acting. Knightshade shows up again in a cartoon wearing a patch for a fake rumpmark much later, can you guess where??? (hint: his hair had to be straightened for that role)
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I can't speak for other little girls but back in the day I wanted toys of Nightshade, Tirek, Catrina, Somnambula etc. I would have been so excited to pit my ponies in violent conflicts with them. :lol: I was pleased that the G4 toyline produced several villain toys. They're just a lot of fun.
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The toy/tv show dynamic is different now as compared to what it was when I was a child. As Taffeta mentioned already, most kids just played with their ponies without any influence from media. There was very little 'copying' scenarios from the tv show at that time. I, for example, never did so. We only had tv actually broadcast during certain hours of the day here anyway.
If we wanted villains then there many other toy lines available and that was ok. We also played games with each other based on those themes: cops and robbers is one example and needed no toys at all if there were none available at the time.