Is this cheating?

[DazzleKitty]

I am not sure where this post fits, so I am putting it here.

I am getting really frustrated with my art and feel like I am going nowhere. I know there is talent in me, but I don't know how to make it grow. I cannot really afford art classes right now. But can you get better at art WITHOUT the use of classes?

What I have been doing lately is looking at the artwork of others for reference, or from real life photos. Sometimes I'll draw what someone else has drawn (but not pass it on as my own) to see HOW to draw a particular pose or article of clothing, then apply it to my own works.

I am wondering if this makes me a cheap and crappy artist? I just don't know how else to learn. I have seen lots of poses here that I haven't been able to draw myself until I copied and learned.

I am just confused and frustrated over this. When I draw freehanded is when I enjoy myself. But I feel like I am limited and need to copy and learn.

How did all you artists get your practice?

[Kaeldre]

I hear ya...

For years, I've been using others art as references for poses, sometimes tracing right over them (but not claiming them as my own!).  It's a crutch I've been using that method for about 5 years.  That and with the help of some artist friends, I'm slowly getting better and learning how to freehand things.  It just takes time! :3  You'll get there.  I'm not there yet, either. xP

I was also an art student for two years and, after that, I was afraid to draw because I was told that everything I drew was wrong (they wanted realism when all I wanted to draw were cartoons).  It took me months to get back into drawing after that.

[MoongazerThePony]

That's how I learned. Eventually you will memorize the reference and be able to draw easily! And if you copy something as long as you don't claim it as your own, its fine.

[Lobstersnail]

Definitely not. Using references is never cheating. Everyone hits art block at some point, and sometimes the only way to fix it is by seeing how other people draw! It is always good to experiment with other styles and to draw from reference simply because it helps us see from a different perspective.
It's good that you don't just take the art and say it's yours. If you did, it would be a problem. But since you are just doing it for practice, there is no problem with it! And it certainly doesn't make you cheap. You will find where you lie with your artwork sooner or later and drawing in your own way will come back to you. Sometimes we just need a little push.

Generally, when I have hit a block in my artwork, I look at all the artists who inspire me and just observe what they have done. Look at the way they do their lines, try to color in their style. And not because I want to copy them, but just to see if I can learn from it in any way. Sometimes I do and sometimes it's confusing or just doesn't work for me and I go back to my own ways!

[Emberfly]

Copying the masters, be them traditional or pony artists is what artists do.  It is often required work to copy them in order to become a better artist yourself.  You are following a time honoured tradition, just with a pony twist.

[ZennaBug]

Not at all!  Most of us didn't take art classes, I don't think.  I certainly haven't taken art since I was a kid.  It's all about just practicing over and over.  When I first started drawing ponies, I copied G1 art.  Then found a few other pony artists that I liked and studied their style like mad.  Eventually, it morphed into my own style and I usually don't look at references anymore (unless it's a weird pose, then I look through actual pictures of horses).  As long as you're not posting the heavily-influenced art and claiming it as your own, then I don't see a problem.

[Hobbles]

I copy off photos, real life, other artwork until I understand the anatomy and stuff... I don't think it's cheating at all. It's a good way to learn new stuff at your own pace

[Glitch]

I am not sure where this post fits, so I am putting it here.

I am getting really frustrated with my art and feel like I am going nowhere. I know there is talent in me, but I don't know how to make it grow. I cannot really afford art classes right now. But can you get better at art WITHOUT the use of classes?

What I have been doing lately is looking at the artwork of others for reference, or from real life photos. Sometimes I'll draw what someone else has drawn (but not pass it on as my own) to see HOW to draw a particular pose or article of clothing, then apply it to my own works.

I am wondering if this makes me a cheap and crappy artist? I just don't know how else to learn. I have seen lots of poses here that I haven't been able to draw myself until I copied and learned.

I am just confused and frustrated over this. When I draw freehanded is when I enjoy myself. But I feel like I am limited and need to copy and learn.

How did all you artists get your practice?

As others have already said using references is never cheating. Just be sure you give credit to other artists. You can find thousands of references on Deviantart. As for progressing as an artist, practice makes perfect. I'm sure you have heard this a million times but it really is true. You may not notice it now but a few years down the road you will be able to look back at your older works and see how far you've come. Best of luck to you

[Pheasant]

[Incoming wall of text here, sorry!]

I understand how you feel; I've had similar experiences myself.

But can you get better at art WITHOUT the use of classes?

Of course you can! Now, I don't mean to sound prideful here, but I likely will come across as that - I have never attended art classes, but many people have said I'm an excellent artist, and not just as an empty compliment. I found that actually taking the time and going over the basics of art drastically improved my skills, and the majority of my skill came from using how-to-draw tutorials and various art books. As with all books, tutorial books can be priced highly, but they are invaluable tools to have on hand. Here are a few suggestions that you may want to try; they offer views on perspectives, proportions, shading techniques, and various other nifty tricks!

* Drawing For The Absolute Beginner by Mark and Mary Willenbrink - I haven't had the chance to really try out this book, but I've flipped through it several times, and it does offer a wonderful guide on the basics of artwork.
* The Ultimate Drawing and Painting technique Bible by Trudy Friend - I'll let the title speak for itself.
* The Complete Idiot's Guide To Drawing Basics Illustrated by Frank Fradella - Despite the title, if I was forced to choose only one artbook to use for the remainder of my life, I would easily choose this one. The text is humorous and yet to the point, and that combined with the images inside create an easy-to-comprehend guide that will greatly improve your work. It does contain some slight nudity, but as nothing inappropriate is shown, I wouldn't worry about it.

What I have been doing lately is looking at the artwork of others for reference, or from real life photos. Sometimes I'll draw what someone else has drawn (but not pass it on as my own) to see HOW to draw a particular pose or article of clothing, then apply it to my own works.

I am wondering if this makes me a cheap and crappy artist? I just don't know how else to learn. I have seen lots of poses here that I haven't been able to draw myself until I copied and learned.

It doesn't make you cheap or crappy at all.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with using reference photos, or even another artist's artwork (as long as you aren't claiming it for your own, which you aren't doing), however, I would be cautious in the latter case as some artist's work may be out of proportion. Also, I'm going to throw this out here; NEVER, under any circumstances, compare YOUR art to ANOTHER artists work. Doing so will only make you feel worse about your style, and you don't want that - not everyone's art is going to be the same, which I'm grateful for, because if it was the art world would be a very boring place!


As I stated above; try out some of the artwork books I suggested. And, as Frank Fradella stated;

"Practice doesn't make perfect, but it will make you suck less."

^ The secret of the great artists is right there; the only reasons they were great is because 1): They practiced, and 2): They didn't quit.

[Griffin]

Sundown and others gave some excellent advice!

I would only add that while using references and even copying works for the purposes of practising is ok, you need to be careful where to display or what to do with your practice pieces. Especially when it's a direct copy of the original, or traced or painted over. Not every photo you find online is free to use as stock material, so particularly when you're planning to sell a piece, it's important to make sure you have the rights to the material - crediting the original artist (incl. photographers) is not enough. I would also be cautious about posting directly copied pieces to online galleries such as DA unless you have the permission of whomever holds the rights to the picture you're copying. Practising is one thing, exhibiting (posting it online counts as exhibiting!) or selling your drawings/works is a different story. With the latter you need to be careful not to infringe the copyright laws.

Using reference pictures is perfectly fine, though. The difference is summarized pretty well here: 

"I think the distinction most people don't make is between using something for information (reference) and copying an image. There's a difference between using a field guide to find out, for example, how far the orange feathers on a particular species of bird extend down its chest and applying this information to your own painting of the bird, and copying the image in a field guide exactly, that is making a derivative image from one of the field guide's photo or illustration. If you're truly using someone else's photos or illustrations as reference, you're collecting information and applying it to your painting, just like you would apply your knowledge of color mixing." (Marion Boddy-Evans, About.com)

I use a lot of photos for reference, especially with my animal drawings, but never blatantly copy them. Instead, I look at several photos in order to study the particular animal's anatomy and other features. Not only is this great for practising, it also allows me to do whatever I want with the piece, instead of only keeping it to myself.

Of course, copying directly also has its place in learning, and it certainly doens't make you a crappy artist! Using references is not cheating, even top level artists do it. It's only that sometimes the copyright questions are tricky, which is why it's always safer to reference from real life or your own photographs in case you're showing off or selling your art. That aside, I'm saying the same as everyone else - go for it! Practise is the only way to learn.

[HollowZero]

I agree with Sundown in the fact that copying other artists will, a great majority of the time, give you the incorrect proportion and anatomy.

If I ever want to draw something, be it a pony, a horse, a bridge, a mug...I personally try to get something I can hold in my hands. If I don't have something on hand, I mold it with some Sculpey. Sometimes I want to do a pose that seems impossible without a good ref, so I just mold it myself to see it in 3 dimensions.

So no, it's not cheating, but copying from other artists will honestly only hinder you in the long run.

[DazzleKitty]

Wow, thank you all for the encouragment and wonderful tips!

I took a figure drawing class in college and dropped out. I was told I was doing it all wrong. That's when I figured out that I am more of a cartoonist/illustrationist. I don't like to draw realistic things. I love to draw cartoony stuff.

I was worried about this because my dad said I wasn't being the greatest artist by copying someone to practice. But I think it also takes TALENT to replicate almost exactly someone else's work just by looking at it and comparing.

I do lots of freehanded stuff too. I realize that I have more fun drawing when I am not comparing my work to others and I am drawing what I want to just for fun and not trying to do a spectacular job.

One thing I want to get for human references is those poseable wooden doll thingies that you see for sale at art stores. I think those would come in mighty handy.   And I will certainly check out those books mentioned. I work nights, 12 hours shifts and it's boring. I can bring in things to do. I have plenty of time to practice drawing. LOTS of time.

I am going to go back to this thread everytime I feel frustrated. You all seriously made me feel so much better with your kind and encouraging words. Thanks to everyone who put their input in.

[UrocyonFox]

I actually just posted some art on the Trading Post http://www.mlptp.net/forums/mlp-artwork/99658-playing-different-art-styles.html and was feeling the same. I was trying different styles of ponies (I was not happy with my own style cause it didn't look MLPish enough for me) so I was looking at washcloths, book bags, lunchboxes, anything I could that had pony art on it to try to figure out poses, styles and what not. I think as long as you note where you got reference, or pose or what not you're fine. I have slowly been picking up my own styles and what not but it does feel like its taking forever!!! I've never had an art class in my life but I still feel like I'm improving, and thats whats important! you should post some of your art on here, I'm sure we'd all love to see it! and other artists on here can give you tips and advise to help you improve!

[AmethystDefender]

I have similar problems, but I just can't bring myself to trace, although one of my friends does it purely for learning how the other people do it, and then he draws his own stuff with the knowledge gained...i guess.  It seems to work for him, but I just can't bring myself to do it, having been brought up with the belief that tracing is wrong. 

What I do instead is use references...RL, and photo (as long as the photo is either stock, or actually photographed BY me...some people get protective even of photos...so you have to make sure it's ok to use first.)  I can't say I'm the best, because I'm not, and recently I've realized I kinda have to go back to basics for a bit, but I'm getting there.

so, it kinda depends on who you ask, I guess. *shrug*  Not very helpful, I know, but...

Edit: Oh, forgot to mention...when I was first learning how to draw ponies, I would use the actual toys, and reference off of that, if that helps any.

And I also completely understand the 'not good at realistic' bit.  I was/am the same way, but RL and photo refs are still good, even for cartooning.  And don't get me started on 'conventional' drawing classes. >.> charcoal....UGH.

Also, wooden drawing figures...meh.  They don't have full range of motion, and you can't move the torso at all....it's constantly upright (at least mine is).  They could be helpful, but only for upright poses.  I have one.  I don't often use it. ;

Also, some links I found helpful: http://fav.me/d5rsbof , http://fav.me/d5rtqyu , and conceptart.org, where artists will critique you for free.  Beware though...they can be harsh (*cough* and a certain one I met there seems to frown on cartoony styles *cough* >.>), and some of the sketchbooks there are NSFW.

[Candy_Bang]

I just wanted to add that all the way from portfolio courses to get into art schools, right up to the post-grad in comic books I'm doing, my teachers/lecturers have always put emphasis on the importance of look books / swipe files. Collections of references or things that inspire you, to prove that you've put some research and thought into whatever you're doing. In fact, even in art classes at high school there was an emphasis placed on 'research' before moving onto 'development of an idea'.
So don't think of it as cheating at all. You're teaching yourself in pretty much the same way you would be encouraged to at an 'art class'. I think the real worth of classes is to mix with more experienced artists who can tell where your problem areas are and help you improve, and just the environment of being around likeminded people (if you're lucky). The critiques and helpful exchanges of ideas are also present in art forums, pretty much like this right now.
In short, what you're doing right now is just fine, and not paying for a class doesn't lessen the extent to which a person can teach themself. 
Oh, and yeah, if you're copying someone's art there is a risk of copying their mistakes, but the more practised you become, the more you will notice their mistakes before you copy them. Good luck