Taobao Buyers: How Guilty (Or Not Guilty) Do You Feel?

[xelli]

I don't consider it as stealing. Hasbro sells millions of toys everyday so that won't get any poorer by loosing those maybe 500 ponies that leak out somehow.

I'm sorry but this kind of bothers me. Just because Hasbro is doing well (at least i assume Hasbro is doing well) doesn't make it perfectly fine to just take their stuff. I don't get why people think that as soon as you are dealing with a big company it is no longer theft. Not to mention that not everyone working at this company is some big money maker. Seriously, i don't care if people buy stuff from taobao but stuff like this just sounds like excuses to me. Again, you wouldn't just steal a pony from a store and say "well Hasbro makes a lot of money anyway!".

Read it and after putting it into consideration I think you're right at some point, but allow me to tell you a story

My step-mother works in a big company producing fruit juice. Many of the workers there are simply taking out the juices from the factory. If someone told me it to that point, I would say that they are thieves. BUT after hearing stories about hundreds or even thousands of those juice being thrown away or poured out because there was a glitch in their packaging or an small error in the ingredients proportion that didn't even change the taste, and the workers being not allowed to take them for free (since they already won't go to the shops) but having to pay about 60% of their original price (they aren't cheap believe me). Plus the workers don't get any pay rises, have to work on holidays, getting more and more stressed, having to think over their every decision, being fired after making small failures. Knowing all of this judging them wouldn't be so simple anymore. 

So it all depends on the situation. I know taking juices for yourself is different than taking toys for sell, but we don't know how it all goes. If it is as those toys are glitches meant to be thrown away than it's better that the collecting community gets them. Also if the workers are treated poorly and can't even get a free toy for their children for Christmas (example) than it doesn't surprise me that they're selling them. But if they're working in really good conditions and just wanting some extra money than it won't be ok.

[Chi]

I feel a little guilty, and honestly after reading these threads I probably wouldn't buy pre-releases from TaoBao or others again. Like, I get that Chinese factory conditions are horrible, but does that justify stealing from them? It's almost unfair to the other workers who are being treated just as poorly, but don't resort to making money on the side via grey-market merchandise. Two wrongs do not make a right.




I wonder though, how do opponents of TaoBao feel about factory rejects and variants? I mean ponies that were obviously test runs (Twilight with Rarity's symbols and the like) or errors? To me, that's no worse than a burger restaurant giving away its "expired" burgers instead of wasting them, and those ponies would likely just end up in the trash anyways. Buying them would not discourage anyone from spending money on official Hasbro products, I don't think.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. 
I felt pretty guilty owning Pony, but now that I don't have her I have mixed feelings of "What if she's never released" and then of course "Well, if there is then I'd have no problem buying her in stores"..
Worst case scenario, she isn't and I have to commission a custom. That won't be an issue considering how many amazing artists (like the very person I am quoting! ) are willing to make great customs for commissions. That way, I could also get her made to my own specifications.    At least I know those who currently own any of them do not feel guilty themselves and are most likely very, very glad to have her. However, I don't see myself ordering from Taobao again unless my feelings somehow magically change regarding the entire issue itself.

[saply]

I feel a little guilty, and honestly after reading these threads I probably wouldn't buy pre-releases from TaoBao or others again. Like, I get that Chinese factory conditions are horrible, but does that justify stealing from them? It's almost unfair to the other workers who are being treated just as poorly, but don't resort to making money on the side via grey-market merchandise. Two wrongs do not make a right.




I wonder though, how do opponents of TaoBao feel about factory rejects and variants? I mean ponies that were obviously test runs (Twilight with Rarity's symbols and the like) or errors? To me, that's no worse than a burger restaurant giving away its "expired" burgers instead of wasting them, and those ponies would likely just end up in the trash anyways. Buying them would not discourage anyone from spending money on official Hasbro products, I don't think.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. 
I felt pretty guilty owning Pony, but now that I don't have her I have mixed feelings of "What if she's never released" and then of course "Well, if there is then I'd have no problem buying her in stores"..
Worst case scenario, she isn't and I have to commission a custom. That won't be an issue considering how many amazing artists (like the very person I am quoting! ) are willing to make great customs for commissions. That way, I could also get her made to my own specifications.    At least I know those who currently own any of them do not feel guilty themselves and are most likely very, very glad to have her. However, I don't see myself ordering from Taobao again unless my feelings somehow magically change regarding the entire issue itself.

The more I think about it though, the more I realize the Ponies at least all seemed to have factory flaws (symbol rubs, missing plugs, etc). I think it's possible that they might have been rejects from the assembly lines or something, but we'll never know for sure. I don't think I would feel guilty about having her though because if she's released, I'd get her without errors (and accessories), and if she ISN'T released, well, obviously that isn't going to cut into Hasbro's Pony sales.

[TokiBear]

I purchased a few international exclusives from a Taobao group order here at the Arena, and I don't feel bad about it at all.  Sorry Hasbro, but why can't you release Sky Wishes and Star Swirl in the United States??  I contemplated buying from Taobao, but decided against it...

^ This

[banditpony]

I have purchased off of taobao, and I have helped others purchase pony items. Because if people wanted the ponies, I didn't want them to have to pay what resellers were charging on ebay.

I don't bother thinking about the ethical issues, because in reality, if I started doing that-- I probably wouldn't even buy directly from the store and only from second hand from those who were discarding them-- aka thrift store, fleamarket, etc etc. (And I'd apply it to most purchases, and I'd go on a handmade/local spree-- if I really started letting ethical issues bug me).

And further more, we don't even know how these ponies are obtained. Period. It is a grey area issue. We don't know if someone is taking them illegally, we don't know who that person is (some poor underpaid worker, some management person-- which btw , I believe its the latter), if they are thrown away and someone is taking them out of the garbage, or if are considered samples and free for people to take, ETC ETC ETC.

While my company makes another product, we get tons of samples from the factory, and as workers we can take it all home-- otherwise it goes into the trash. And I have been the person who throws the samples in the trash... and it's nauseating to see a large bin of product thrown out, when 99% of it has no flaws. I do have permission to take it home for my own use, but I don't have permission to resell it.

So whatever people think, the fact is we just don't know.

With not knowing, it is a bit easier to not feel guilty. And I feel no guilt for any taobao purchase I have made for myself, or on the behalf of others.




One last edit: All of the taobao ponies I own, are not released. If they are ever released, I would buy them in a proper way-- because that is how I feel about it, and that's how I do things with other hobbies. I am happy to support Hasbro.   

[Prismatic]

I don't feel guilty.  When Hasbro comes out and states they're stolen, I'll stop buying.  Otherwise, we don't know that they are or not, or that they're simply tossed out rejects that will never be sold.  There's so many possibilities that it's pointless for me to worry about it.

Taobao was the only way I got Star Swirl, for a reasonable price.  I couldn't get her anywhere for less than $50, and I can't justify spending $50 on her...  Now she's a part of my collection, and one of my favorites (she's blue, and has stars...doesn't get much better than that lol)  Of course after I got her I started seeing her for less, but that's how it works

[Emfen]

I haven't bought from tabao yet, but I wish to do so soon.
As for the illegal part.. I do not really feel any guilt of downloading, I remember tho when I was smaller my elder cousin used to steal stuff from stores even sometimes for me. Where I live you can't be naive and think everyone is doing the right thing. I mean like, when I went in high school I heard classmates talking about a dude selling items cheaper referred to as "baxade" which is a slang for stolen in Swedish.
When it comes to myself I'd feel guilty if I stole I guess, I did take items once as a child but not on purpose.

On the other hand we DO know people in china do live under strict rulers. I follow news often and hear a lot of the problems they are facing and based on that I think people that sell these items are just in need of an extra coin.

Based on facts
>China has very strict rules, the government love to censor stuff - even chairs!
>West have used countries like this as we did with africa during the 1700th
>Most of these countries have issues with economics

Not everyone in the world have the kind of money to be able to swim in ponies or any luxurious items for that matter.


(Somehow it feels like that itunes thing all over again, when copyright claimers wanted to take down piratebay...)

[Stuntmang]

I'd much rather give money to an underpaid, overworked factory worker than Hasbro.

[Sora]

I won't buy from Taobao since I don't know where the merchandise comes from.  I just don't feel right about it.

I'm in the same mindset. And honestly I don't think there could be any explanation or outcome that would make me want to buy from there. Stolen by poor factory workers, hoarded by higher ups, freely given out as rejects, someone's little side project... no matter how they get there, I'm just not inclined to buy from taobao.

This. To me everything about Taobao seems dodgy. I would much rather own official, Hasbro produced and packaged ponies, if only because I want the line to continue. I believe in supporting things I'm fond of, and dealing under the table just to get a pony with different coloured hair doesn't sit right with me. But then I was never one for pirated movies, or downloaded music either.

Also agreeing with this. I'd much rather just wait it out and get them when they're released. And if they're never released, well, shame, but it's nothing that really bothers me.

[Tropical_Sunset]

I don't bother thinking about the ethical issues, because in reality, if I started doing that-- I probably wouldn't even buy directly from the store and only from second hand from those who were discarding them-- aka thrift store, fleamarket, etc etc. (And I'd apply it to most purchases, and I'd go on a handmade/local spree-- if I really started letting ethical issues bug me).

And further more, we don't even know how these ponies are obtained. Period. It is a grey area issue. We don't know if someone is taking them illegally, we don't know who that person is (some poor underpaid worker, some management person-- which btw , I believe its the latter), if they are thrown away and someone is taking them out of the garbage, or if are considered samples and free for people to take, ETC ETC ETC.

While my company makes another product, we get tons of samples from the factory, and as workers we can take it all home-- otherwise it goes into the trash. And I have been the person who throws the samples in the trash... and it's nauseating to see a large bin of product thrown out, when 99% of it has no flaws. I do have permission to take it home for my own use, but I don't have permission to resell it.

So whatever people think, the fact is we just don't know.

With not knowing, it is a bit easier to not feel guilty. And I feel no guilt for any taobao purchase I have made for myself, or on the behalf of others.




One last edit: All of the taobao ponies I own, are not released. If they are ever released, I would buy them in a proper way-- because that is how I feel about it, and that's how I do things with other hobbies. I am happy to support Hasbro.   

This!

[LadyMoondancer]

I wanted to add that if anyone is curious about life for China's factory workers, the documentary Last Train Home is an informative look at them.

Every spring, China's cities are plunged into chaos as 130 million migrant workers travel back to their home villages for the New Year's holiday. This mass exodus is the world's largest human migration, an epic spectacle that exposes a nation tragically caught between its rural past and industrial future.
[/size]Working over several years in classic cinéma vérité style, director Lixin Fan travelled with one couple who have embarked on this annual trek for almost two decades. Like many of China's rural poor, the Zhangs have left their native village of Huilong in Sichuan province and their newborn daughter to find work in Guangzhou in a garment factory for 16 years and see her only once a year during the Spring Festival. Their daughter Qin, now a restless and rebellious teenager- bitterly resents her parents' absence and longs for her own freedom away from school and her rural hometown, much to the dismay of her parents. She eventually leaves school, against the wishes of her parents, to work in the city. Emotionally charged and starkly beautiful, Last Train Home examines one fractured family to shed light on the human cost of China's ascendence as an economic superpower.

[EverfreeNorthwest]

Well, you guys did hear what's happening in the Nerf fandom over Tabao, yes?


http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/04/24/nerf-guns-at-10-paces-hasbro-faces-boycott-after-siccing-lawyers-onto-fan-site/


I do admit, I think the article is VERY slanted in its reporting, and would love to hear an unbiased report though.

[Stormy31685]

I feel a little guilty, and honestly after reading these threads I probably wouldn't buy pre-releases from TaoBao or others again. Like, I get that Chinese factory conditions are horrible, but does that justify stealing from them? It's almost unfair to the other workers who are being treated just as poorly, but don't resort to making money on the side via grey-market merchandise. Two wrongs do not make a right.




I wonder though, how do opponents of TaoBao feel about factory rejects and variants? I mean ponies that were obviously test runs (Twilight with Rarity's symbols and the like) or errors? To me, that's no worse than a burger restaurant giving away its "expired" burgers instead of wasting them, and those ponies would likely just end up in the trash anyways. Buying them would not discourage anyone from spending money on official Hasbro products, I don't think.

This pretty much sums up my feelings. 
I felt pretty guilty owning Pony, but now that I don't have her I have mixed feelings of "What if she's never released" and then of course "Well, if there is then I'd have no problem buying her in stores"..
Worst case scenario, she isn't and I have to commission a custom. That won't be an issue considering how many amazing artists (like the very person I am quoting! ) are willing to make great customs for commissions. That way, I could also get her made to my own specifications.    At least I know those who currently own any of them do not feel guilty themselves and are most likely very, very glad to have her. However, I don't see myself ordering from Taobao again unless my feelings somehow magically change regarding the entire issue itself.

Chi,

     I am having a very difficult time accepting this "guilt" you are feeling.

You shouldn't.

As for Hasbro and all the legalities,

I think it was a complete slap in the face to those in the community who poured a lot of time and money and personal risk into figuring out how to buy these items from overseas sellers to even post the info on how to do it.  Buying from Taobao through agents is a risk - paypal or no paypal.  Not a risk for inexperienced buyers to take. 

Sadly, if sellers or buyers would just lay low (on all sites) and not say anything, EVERYONE would have benefited from it - people would still have been running group orders, overseas sellers would still be able to sell, and Hasbro would be none the wiser.

So, do I feel bad?  NO.  Not now, not ever.  Does Hasbro feel bad for selling My Little Pony toys (that they know are partially directed at adult fans with more discretionary income than a small child) that cost them around 10 cents to manufacture for $5 - 20 dollars?  I bet not in a million years.

Everything is based on supply and demand.

*edited to clarify my feelings and as an apology to Chi, as I inadvertently directed other frustrations her way which were not intended*

[Elisto]

I've never bought from Taobao because it just seems suspicious to me. Hasbro doesn't have to come out and say "these toys are stolen" for me to question it because companies don't release their prototypes like that that, both because of how valuable they know prototypes are to collectors, and to keep their creative process away from competitors. I don't know what they do with the prototypes, maybe melt them down or maybe keep them for future reference, but whatever it is, I'm pretty sure the item still belongs to the company until they destroy it. I doubt they'd just throw it in the trash where anyone can get to it.

Now, I do know someone who works in a US plastic factory, and she and others who work there do all have personal collection of error pieces (mostly small storage/food containers that are miscolored). And I totally see nothing wrong with that, and would hope the companies don't mind because that would be a huge waste otherwise. Certainly, some companies don't mind since they'll sell "errors" like the discounted package of mis-sized socks that I bought recently.

But if that's what's going on with Taobao, well it doesn't seem to be the same thing because they're clearly reselling the items, not keeping them for personal use. I don't blame them, given the likely conditions and pay, but I also think it might be illegal. Is buying from Taobao helping factory workers? No idea, maybe it is, maybe it's just a different level of dependency on the factory. I don't know what their situation is, so I'd rather try to figure out a different way to change that system of companies depending on cheap labor than support potential stealing from them, even if I don't blame the people who may be doing it. Besides, there must be a better way than helping workers get a few extra dollars here and there. (Also, just to be clear, most of my ponies...and most of everything else I own...are second-hand, even my G4s)

Also, unless the ponies on Taobao are customs that people are making and selling as MLP (which I still suspect the FS Pony is), then this isn't an intellectual property/copyright/trademark issue, but a potential stolen items issue because the items were made under the company's direction.

I'm not judging anyone who does buy from Taobao. There's a lot we don't know about what's going on. I'm just saying that if you're going to say it doesn't matter if the ponies are stolen or not because of how workers are probably treated, well I don't think two wrongs make a right.

[Chi]

Chi,

     I am having a very difficult time accepting this "guilt" you are feeling.  I find it odd that any member would publicly post how easy it is to buy from TaoBao (which it is absolutely not, and not to mention how many of us searched painfully on our own time and suffered losses to order and even try and help out the community), order enough of a controversial pony (which, you are no fool - we all knew the chance she would be truly released was slim) to make a cool $900 (at least), and then turn around and say you feel bad about it.  I have watched and read a lot of your posts and they are shocking to say the least.

I think it was a complete slap in the face to those in the community who poured a lot of time and money and personal risk into figuring out how to buy these items from overseas sellers to even post the info on how to do it.  Buying from Taobao through agents is a risk - paypal or no paypal.  Not a risk for inexperienced buyers to take.  Not that they can't, but I would have felt horrible right then and there for even posting how to do it.  I mean, my almost 2-year-old knows how to operate my hairdryer and the general direction to point the dryer to dry his hair, but I would never actually let him do it for fear that he could burn himself or set our house on fire.  I care enough to keep it away from him.

Sadly, if sellers or buyers would just lay low and not say anything, EVERYONE would have benefited from it - people would still have been running group orders, overseas sellers would still be able to sell, and Hasbro would be none the wiser.

So, as for the topic, do I feel bad?  NO.  Not now, not ever.  Does Hasbro feel bad for selling My Little Pony toys (that they know are partially directed at adult fans with more discretionary income than a small child) that cost them around 10 cents to manufacture for $5 - 20 dollars?  I bet not in a million years.

Everything is based on supply and demand.

I truly feel sorry for all the collectors who spent a lot of time and energy in teaching themselves how to order from Taobao, who have and would have ordered for other members.  Because now, they will likely never get their hands on a Pony (because a lot of them weren't awake for your post about it at 3AM), and now Hasbro won't be issuing any additional.

I'm sorry you feel this way. At the moment when I was buying them, I didn't truly realize everyone's opinions on the matter. I was just thinking, get these things to people on the arena. I would have gladly ordered more for people at the time, but there just weren't any left to order. I asked my agent if I could add more onto the order after seeing the demand but she stated the seller did not have any more and did not know when/if they would restock. It's not necessarily that I feel bad about buying them, it's just the posts about people saying how it's wrong for people to be buying from Taobao. That they're stolen, that people who buy from Taobao are supporting a grey market, etc. Maybe I just let other people's opinions get to me, but they did. I felt like I was doing something wrong, even though it was already over. Of course buying anything overseas and even within your country through a website that's not moderated and protected with a buyer protection program like eBay is a risk, and I just assumed people were aware of that since there is a lot of buying and selling going on from every corner of the globe for nirvanas, dolls, toys, etc.  I'm sorry if I somehow upset you or anyone else, but I was just trying to help people get to things they wanted since they were curious as to how to do it and it's better to at least have a sense of what to do rather than go in at it alone.


I'm honestly not entirely sure what the purpose of the first part of your post was other than to make me feel even worse about the way I'm currently feeling. If anything, your post just solidifies the choice of me no longer buying from Taobao and leaving it up to those who can handle the controversy and emotional confusion I felt when buying in the first place and am currently feeling. I really just can't handle posts like this very well.