The MLP Arena
TCB => Trader & Shipping Support => Topic started by: Ember1 on September 21, 2015, 03:52:42 PM
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Hi there,
I am having a huge problem with a buyer.
I agreed to a payment plan with a buyer for a pricey pony.
She paid $500 deposit on the pony. She wrote me a few weeks ago
saying that she has to back out of the sale and wants me to sell her
something worth $500. I don't currently have anything that I am selling
worth $500.
Generally as far as my experience buying ponies on the arena,
deposits are usually non refundable.. BUT... I am perfectly willing to have this pony
on hold for her indefinitely until she can resume payments on it.. She is not
interested in buying the pony anymore though..but has asked for something else instead.
I am out of a job and am more worried about paying utilities for my apartment than anything else.. I can't afford to send her the deposit back..
She has now said she is going to petition the amount she paid me on her credit card
How to I proceed?
Moving this over to Trader Support for you. Snork Maiden, WYP Mod
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Hi there,
I am having a huge problem with a buyer.
I agreed to a payment plan with a buyer for a pricey pony.
She paid $500 deposit on the pony. She wrote me a few weeks ago
saying that she has to back out of the sale and wants me to sell her
something worth $500. I don't currently have anything that I am selling
worth $500.
Generally as far as my experience me buying ponies on the arena,
deposits are usually non refundable and this is not always spelled out before purchase.. BUT... I am perfectly willing to have this pony
on hold for her indefinitely until she can resume payments on it.. She is not
interested in buying the pony anymore though..but has asked for something else instead.
I am out of a job and am more worried about paying utilities for my apartment than anything else.. I can't afford to send her the deposit back..
She has now said she is going to petition the amount she paid me on her credit card
How to I proceed?
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Did you tell her before hand that the deposit would be non-refundable? Probably not right?
But she agreed to buy the pony for a certain amount and you agreed to sell it for a certain amount, and she made some progress payments on the purchase.
I would think you have an enforceable contract to require her to finish her payments. If you want to let her out of her obligation, it would be up to you.
Sounds like a sticky situation.
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Ember, I'm really sad to hear this.
Out of curiosity, was it clearly understood that the deposit was non-refundable? If so, do you have any documentation of it...? :/
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It didn't occur to me to say anything before she paid the deposit. I figured we had an agreement and by her sending the deposit she was was serious about this purchase. She has bought expensive ponies from me before without a problem so I never figured I needed to plan for these situations or that anything like this would happen.
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It didn't occur to me to have this understanding before she paid the deposit. I figured we had an agreement and by her sending the deposit she was was serious about this purchase. She has bought expensive ponies from me before without a problem so I never figured I needed to plan for these situations or that anything like this would happen.
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I'm not sure how this would work but without documentation if she paid through PayPal couldn't she have the money pulled and refunded through PP anyway?
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What a terrible situation- I think it is totally unfair of her to threaten to reverse her credit card charge on you, but it does seem like the credit card companies side with the buyer automatically when a dispute comes up, so if you don't work something out with her, I suggest saving all of your emails and PMs to show that you had a contract to buy that she was still paying on.
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Oh...
I'm not sure you can do anything, except try to scrape up the $500 ( if you have nothing else to sell at that price point.) That sort of thing needs to be clearly stated up front. :/
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It is not my fault though that she backed out on our agreement. I feel that from my side I am being willing to hold the pony for her indefinitely.. until she can make payments.. thus holding to the original agreement. I do not understand why this is not acceptable.
At the very least i think it should be agreeable to offer the deposit back to her once the pony is bought by someone else
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Yikes, that's a difficult situation. Do you have multiple ponies that would add up to $500, like a $300 pony and a $200 pony? Or five $100 ponies?
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Yes i have 3 g3 protos for sale at the moment.
I have offered her this option.
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It is not my fault though that she backed out on our agreement. I feel that from my side I am being willing to hold the pony for her indefinitely.. until she can make payments.. thus holding to the original agreement. I do not understand why this is not acceptable.
At the very least i think it should be agreeable to offer the deposit back to her once the pony is bought by someone else
It's not your fault she backed out, no. But as a seller you need to state your terms upfront-- to try to protect yourself. And yes, you do have a generous layaway... however if you didn't say your deposit was non-refundable, then it will be looked at as refundable by third parties (paypal or a cc company)
Since it wasn't defined-- I don't think it's fair to hold someone else's money -- as in, holding the money until someone else purchases the pony.
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i did state to her that i was selling because i was in need of money due to job loss and that the payments from the payment plan was going toward paying rent.
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i did state to her that i was selling because i was in need of money due to job loss and that the payments from the payment plan was going toward paying rent.
:( I know... and it makes me literally ill to my stomach you are in such a tight spot right now.
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I'm not neutral on this (full disclosure)
We talked off boards about this situation and I think it should be brought up that the buyer wanted to switch from the pony they agreed to buy to another pony from Embers collection that was not for sale after making the deposit. The buyer simply doesn't want this particular pony anymore and wanted to go shopping in Embers collection. When Ember refused to switch the buyer accused her of stealing and is now taking it to the card company to try to force Ember to pay her back or give her a different item currently not for sale.
My personal feeling is that when you agree to buy something its sold. You are now responsible for paying for it and the seller is responsible for sending it to you when you are done paying regardless of how many payments are made over whatever amount of time. Neither party should be backing out if they simply don't feel like doing the transaction any longer unless both parties agree. This situation is completely of the buyers making and therefore its their problem if they are stuck paying for a pony they decided they no longer want and it should not be the sellers problem.
I don't know, I'm really sorry Ember, this is a bad situation you did not make and I'm sorry your forced to deal with it at this time.
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OK so I now offered to refund her deposit when I am able to find another buyer for the pony she backed out of.
I think this is fair.. I did let her know before she made the deposit that the money was going toward paying rent. So I just don't have that deposit anymore as it was used up last month as I told her it would be. Its only fair now to allow me to find another buyer and have her deposit refunded once I have that money in hand.
What are your thoughts...
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How awful. She is a member here? We all know what a deposit means. In the future, state it outright though. If it was a bank card instead of a credit card like it sounds, she wouldn't be able to file a claim right? How ridiculous, she's going to ruin it for those of us who want to buy something with a payment plan and can actually stick to our word.
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OK so I now offered to refund her deposit when I am able to find another buyer for the pony she backed out of.
I think this is fair.. I did let her know before she made the deposit that the money was going toward paying rent. So I just don't have that deposit anymore as it was used up last month as I told her it would be. Its only fair now to allow me to find another buyer and have her deposit refunded once I have that money in hand.
What are your thoughts...
That seems like a fair way to mitigate the damages from her breach of contract. Kind of like finding another person to take over on a rental that was supposed to be for a certain amount of months.
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From your sales post:
"Hi All. I am currently jobless and looking for work so I am afraid I will have to try and rehome this beauty."
And they are surprised you can't just send that much money back to them immediately and think you are stealing from them? She basically entered into a contract to buy her, in my eyes.
So sorry. Hope this resolves in a positive way.
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It was in the sales post even. "Hi All. I am currently jobless and looking for work so I am afraid I will have to try and rehome this beauty."
She basically entered into an agreement (contract) to buy this pony and she's backing out and expecting $500 to be sent back to her immediately from a seller who made it clear she was out of a job and needed money?
It's totally reasonable to me that she wait until a new buyer is in the picture. The buyer is the one acting immorally in my eyes. It's pretty frowned upon in general to back out of a sale once it's agreed upon here, right? And she's doing it with a pony over $500 that she put money into already? >_<
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What a terrible situation! I'm very sorry to hear you're going through all this. Sadly, this looks like a case of what's right isn't going to happen, and what's going to happen is all wrong.
This buyer has already shown you that she's a problem and not willing to work with you on this. I'd be willing to bet that even if you had stated upfront that the deposit is nonrefundable, she'd probably try to get it back anyway. I can understand the buyer wanting $500 back. That's a lot of money to be out with nothing to show for it. However, the buyer did create this mess, and an understanding person would hopefully be more flexible. You're going to have to refund the money whether you like it or not. It's probably better to refund it than to have either Paypal or the credit card take it from you. Paypal has been know to freeze accounts for less, and you really don't want that to happen. She's also shown you that she's not willing to wait until you find another buyer, so you might as well bite the bullet and do it now before she opens a case.
If I were in this situation, I'd refund the money(somehow), and tell that buyer that she is no longer welcome to buy from me again in the future (mostly for the attempt to shop from the collection, and making this more unpleasant than it has to be). I'd also pull together a small terms of service statement that will (hopefully) cover future problem transactions, and post it on all future ads and send it in all future business emails.
I'm also very curious who this buyer is.
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While I completely agree this isn't Ember's fault without a no refund policy I do not believe its within her rights to hold that money. It's part of the not spending money till your buyer receives an item thing. When I've done payments I don't spend it till the item makes it home. I feel for you Ember because I've been in your situation before selling something and needing the money then having issues. In the end without a before buying agreement. I think one way of handling it in the future might be to say a certain percent of a large deposit is non refundable. You must get this time just explain to her that you didn't expect her to back out and we're counting on the money so you need to pay her back in pieces and see how it goes?
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Paypal has some rules to protect sellers thankfully.
Stated below:
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However, our purchase protection does not currently cover buyer remorse or issues not listed above that buyers may experience with their purchases.
If you suspect that you are being targeted by a buyer while the case is open, please send us as much information as possible about any related transactions and why you think the buyer may be at fault.
If the case has already been closed, you can appeal the decision on your claim and specifically reference “buyer abuse” as the reason for the appeal.
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Before the drama even starts here....was it disclosed your $500 deposit was non-refundable?
There is no written rule here on the arena that deposits are non-refundable, each transaction here is between members. So unless you have disclosed this in your sales post or have proof through PM's then you are obligated, in my eyes to give this person back their money, unfortunately.
If this was $20 or so dollars, I might fell a bit different but $500??? How would you feel?
In all my years of selling I have learned one thing and it is don't spend money you technically do not have. In this case it was a down payment for your rent and I would never have banked on that, she still owed you money for the pony. I honestly am not trying to be harsh but unless this a complete and finished sale, I just personally would not have spent that cash without knowing I could pay her back.
Also I want to point out that Paypal is not going to protect you, as you never shipped anything out. There is no proof of the sale, except you received money. They are going to want to know where the the item is??? Again not being harsh, just pointing out the facts.
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"Buyer's remorse" is considered a situation like . . . you sell a pony for $30, send it off, all is well . . . but then the buyer finds it online somewhere else for $10 and gets upset and starts haranguing you to accept a return. In this case all PayPal is going to care about is that you received money and didn't send out a product.
Can you afford to gradually refund the $500 over a period of time? That seems fair, since the other person gradually paid the deposit.
I feel for you, as I've been in a situation where I had to sell part of my collection to pay the rent too. This is why I never accept gradual payments on items. There's a weird feeling of the item being "on hold" all that time.
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the fact is from this point forward i will not be doing many payment plans. It truly is not feasable if the payment stretches over six months or more to keep every cent incase the buyer backs out. Its impossible if you are jobless. Anyways i have a few things for sale. Hopefully ill be able to refund her sooner rather than later with the money from those sales. Thats the most i can do.
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I would think the best thing to do in this situation would be to part with something else in your collection that has a value around that amount. I know you said you weren't currently looking to sell anything at that value, but it would be the easiest way to please your buyer as well as yourself (not having to come up with money you don't have currently have).
That's what I would do anyways, I know I certainly couldn't cough up $500 out of the blue, I'm one of those people who almost always needs payment plans for anything over $40 unless I already have the funds available in paypal.
I do agree that once an arrangement has been made and a deposit has been placed, that 9/10 if the buyer backs out, the deposit is forfeited. However, those things are usually stated before money has changed hands. I'm not taking sides or placing blame, just providing my opinion along with a solution.
I hope you guys can get this sorted out so that no one is put out :)
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I am so sorry to hear that you are going through this Ember1. :( truly sad after all you have done for the community.
Please feel free to PM me or share with us all, when all is said and done if you feel it is necessary... *pony hugs*
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Deleted as it was very legal and I realised I didn't want to get into that.
But basically, I would suggest keeping whatever it has actually cost you like Paypal and bank fees and repaying the rest.
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I understand the legal portion and respect that, but as a community isn't there anything that can be done? This buyer can now go out and feel like they can do this to anyone and it makes selling risky here. Ember did nothing wrong but has to some how make the situation right and the buyer that made the problem is off Scott free to do it again? Ember was trying to help this person buy a grail pony by accepting payments (on a generous plan) and instead she is suffering, that's really sad.
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Ok guys. I only opened this thread after the buyer said she had gone to her credit card company about this. I dont want to drag anyones name through the mud here. I believe the buyer to be a nice person but i needed council after Our conversations yesterday. Thank you all for your input. ill figure out the best way to move forward so that all is resolved.
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I understand the legal portion and respect that, but as a community isn't there anything that can be done? This buyer can now go out and feel like they can do this to anyone and it makes selling risky here. Ember did nothing wrong but has to some how make the situation right and the buyer that made the problem is off Scott free to do it again? Ember was trying to help this person buy a grail pony by accepting payments (on a generous plan) and instead she is suffering, that's really sad.
There is nothing the community can do- nothing MLP Arena can do. Except that sometimes shaming the person into doing the right thing seems to work.
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I understand the legal portion and respect that, but as a community isn't there anything that can be done? This buyer can now go out and feel like they can do this to anyone and it makes selling risky here. Ember did nothing wrong but has to some how make the situation right and the buyer that made the problem is off Scott free to do it again? Ember was trying to help this person buy a grail pony by accepting payments (on a generous plan) and instead she is suffering, that's really sad.
There is nothing the community can do- nothing MLP Arena can do. Except that sometimes shaming the person into doing the right thing seems to work.
Feedback can be left. We can also give selling advice. It doesn't help this situation, but we can help future transactions. Sellers need to protect themselves.
When selling-- be clear to the seller the terms of the transaction. Don't spend money when transaction is not complete.
However, i don't feel shaming is right. We only have one side of the story. Even Ember said she didn't want to drag the buyer through the mud. She wanted advice :/ unfortunately not much can be done if buyer had already contacted cc company. I was under the impression there was still.negotiation.
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I'm very sorry to hear that you are in this situation. I would agree that it's not fair to keep the $500 deposit, especially if you didn't state up front that the deposit is non-refundable. But, I don't think you should have to offer the buyer a $500 item that you had no intention of selling. You have so many gems in your collection, and you want to keep the ones that are irreplaceable or have sentimental value. Why should the buyer get to pick and choose what to buy from your collection? That is not fair either.
I missed whether the buyer has already contacted the credit card company or not. You were kind enough to offer an installment plan for the balance of her purchase. If you are still negotiating, would she be willing to accept a refund in installments? You could set a deadline to pay her back in full, and if you are unable to pay it off in time, then maybe you could agree upon a pony to pay off the balance. I hope that you can work something out. :hug:
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I think a LOT of the issue is more the buyers *behavior* then the amount; the buyer doesn't seem willing to wait, is trying to insist on getting a pony that was not for sale, and is threatening the seller, right? Ember is not saying she won't give the money back; she is saying the buyer wants it *right now*, and doesn't seem willing to give her the time she needs to come up with the money, and is making what I would consider threats to go to the credit card company.
The thing is, I don't think they CAN get their money back that way, if Ember has all her records? After all, the agreement was probably carried out in either PMs or emails, I'm sure there's something stating the amount($500) was a deposit. Ember has already agreed to try to give it back, but needs time to do so.
The company would probably take those emails or PMs as evidence the sale was agreed to, so the seller can't claim the card was used without permission.
It also can't be claimed as item not received, because the item hasn't been paid for fully, so I'm not sure what the buyer thinks the credit card company can do?
In other words, I don't think the buyer has any real way to force the money being returned to them immediately; their only real option is to calm down and try to work something out with Ember. It's not like the money can magically appear in Ember's accounts, and she can't give back what she doesn't have.
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I think a LOT of the issue is more the buyers *behavior* then the amount; the buyer doesn't seem willing to wait, is trying to insist on getting a pony that was not for sale, and is threatening the seller, right? Ember is not saying she won't give the money back; she is saying the buyer wants it *right now*, and doesn't seem willing to give her the time she needs to come up with the money, and is making what I would consider threats to go to the credit card company.
The thing is, I don't think they CAN get their money back that way, if Ember has all her records? After all, the agreement was probably carried out in either PMs or emails, I'm sure there's something stating the amount($500) was a deposit. Ember has already agreed to try to give it back, but needs time to do so.
The company would probably take those emails or PMs as evidence the sale was agreed to, so the seller can't claim the card was used without permission.
It also can't be claimed as item not received, because the item hasn't been paid for fully, so I'm not sure what the buyer thinks the credit card company can do?
In other words, I don't think the buyer has any real way to force the money being returned to them immediately; their only real option is to calm down and try to work something out with Ember. It's not like the money can magically appear in Ember's accounts, and she can't give back what she doesn't have.
The one thing I can say about payment plans is that I know PayPal doesn't view them in the light of an item not being paid for. I had an issue last year with a model horse I paid on payments and the owner wasn't shipping ect, but I couldn't get all my money back through PP because they were different transactions. While I did point out they were for the same item PP didn't respond to it in that way. I was lucky, eventually on her own terms the seller refunded me later.
Anyway just throwing that in there and I'm not sure how a cc company would view that. Hope all works out for you Ember.
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I think the buyer's behavior is wrong, plain morally wrong. I'd really like to know who this person is, so other people who might sell high priced items might be careful when entering into business with them.
Ember was nice enough to offer a payment plan on an otherwise probably unaffordable pony, and now she has to be the one to suffer, that is so not right, IMHO.
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I want everyone to please remember that there are two sides to this. I know for a fact the two of them have exchanged large portions of money in the past, with out a hitch. This is a one time occurrence. So there honestly is no reason to question the OP's morals at this time. Should appropriate feedback be left, absolutely! But trying to black ball someone over an obvious financial situation, is a bit unfair in my opinion. As I said before this is not a $20 transaction :huh: most of us do not even deal with this kind of money when dealing with ponies. That is why we need to learn from this, and that is when dealing with payment plans that it needs stated upfront that the initial deposit or a portion of it is non-refundable. I know a lot of customizers do this without any issues due to supplies and the starting of the project. So I think when one enters into a sales of this sort that it should start being implemented.
Anyways Ember herself has stated she is not naming and shaming. She was merely seeking advice how how to handle the situation. I think due to some miscommunication the situation escalated quickly and a CC was opened without thinking it through all the way. While I do not think that part of it fair, what's done is done and it needs to be rectified to the best of the OP's ability at this point.
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For me its absolutely behavior that I have an issue with. We have an honor system and I feel its been violated here. Involving the card company so quickly when the buyer knows Ember is short funds is low, it could affect Embers credit and that's not ok, why didn't the buyer come here? The buyer owed Ember the same courtesy Ember gave her, to pay in installments, especially since Ember has a long positive history with this person and did not make this situation.
in any case, not my deal, back under my rock.
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Ember I don't believe PayPal will side with your buyer if you show proof it's a deposit.
I think it's morally wrong to expect a deposit back when you back out of buying something. I will say in the BJD world, deposits are non refundable as are most payments. I've heard of the seller giving half back if the buyer changes their mind. But not the full amount.
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For me its absolutely behavior that I have an issue with. We have an honor system and I feel its been violated here. Involving the card company so quickly when the buyer knows Ember is short funds is low, it could affect Embers credit and that's not ok, why didn't the buyer come here? The buyer owed Ember the same courtesy Ember gave her, to pay in installments, especially since Ember has a long positive history with this person and did not make this situation.
in any case, not my deal, back under my rock.
Agreed. Trying to get her refund back by filing a dispute with her credit card company- that is not cool and sounds like extortion to me.
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For me its absolutely behavior that I have an issue with. We have an honor system and I feel its been violated here. Involving the card company so quickly when the buyer knows Ember is short funds is low, it could affect Embers credit and that's not ok, why didn't the buyer come here? The buyer owed Ember the same courtesy Ember gave her, to pay in installments, especially since Ember has a long positive history with this person and did not make this situation.
in any case, not my deal, back under my rock.
Agreed. Trying to get her refund back by filing a dispute with her credit card company- that is not cool and sounds like extortion to me.
This is my feeling as well. I tend to think of deposits, when I pay them, as non-refundable. If an unforeseeable disaster happens (job-loss, car break down, health problems, etc...) and suddenly this money is desperately needed for bills then I can see trying to back out of an installment agreement and request a refund of a deposit.
That being said, if it wasn't clear in the first place to the buyer that the deposit was non-refundable I can see her wanting it back. However, he/she should extend the same courtesy to Ember by allowing her to repay in installments. Also, the fact that the buyer just decided they didn't want the pony anymore and the request to cancel isn't due to an emergency doesn't sit well with me. If you are going to spend upwards of 500$ on a pony and ask a seller to hold it while you make payments, you'd better be sure before you enter into that agreement especially if the seller states they are selling due to hardship. Also, trying to shift into getting not-for-sale collection ponies in place of the agreed upon pony really isn't right and threatening to file a charge-back feel like extortion to me as well. I would like to know who this buyer is too so as to avoid dealing with them in the future. Unless events in this case are dramatically different than they appear at the moment, this buyer is someone I would not want to receive a commission from, as these are paid with a non-refundable deposit.
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Just a thought, but if the Buyer used PayPal and sent as a gift, they probably cant get the money back from there? That said, the claim was to the card, not PayPal, and card companies have insurance and might pay the buyer back with that rather than argue because its not a lot of money to them. If that's the case, asking Ember to pay this person would mean a double payment to the buyer wouldn't it? I think this person needs to prove they were NOT paid by their card before going after Ember now.
This is so ugly! I really need to stop posting on this thread!