The MLP Arena

Pony Talk => MLP Nirvana => Topic started by: Ember1 on January 07, 2017, 10:48:44 AM

Title: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 07, 2017, 10:48:44 AM
So Kasin, I and a few other oldbie collectors remember seeing a CP sundance catalogue photo way back in the day. We have been hunting for it for a while now.
Recently, A licca collecting friend stumbled across this photo on one of the licca collecting sites. It was posted by a catalogue collector on the board.. HORRAY!

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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Carrehz on January 07, 2017, 10:50:37 AM
:O Thanks for posting this! How interesting, I wonder why she was never produced (apart from that one prototype, I mean).
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 07, 2017, 10:59:43 AM
Yay! Finaly some paper trail to this mysterious pony! :D
Do you know if it was a UK catalog or a US one? My theory has been that UK should have got her with their version of megan since they kind of made the others in that pose to CP ponies...
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 07, 2017, 11:47:52 AM
Good theory you have. The UK did produce a lot of CP poses.
Im not sure which catalogue this photo came out of.
Ill see if i can inquire to the catalogue collector on the licca board. Maybe she can answer that question.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: angelponies on January 07, 2017, 01:02:07 PM
That is fantastic Em!! :biggrin: :cheer:
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kasin on January 07, 2017, 01:34:10 PM
We were not crazy!  It was so frustrating not finding this photo for so long, thank you for posting it, I will sleep well tonight! I knew I'd seen that CP  Sundance in promo material before....

..... Wonder what else was in that catalog.....
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 08, 2017, 02:33:54 AM
Actually I think it is possible that the picture is from an UK Argos catalog, just compare it with this pic:

https://www.pinterest.se/pin/405464772686596903/ (https://www.pinterest.se/pin/405464772686596903/)

Edit: I borrowed the pic to do a comparison for you
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 The stable and pony is placed almost exactly the same, exept for the dog is not present, the fence has been moved a little and the left bottom door is closed.

What I know Argos arranged their own photos, but that could be investigated. It could be a stock photo from Hasbro. :)

If you compare it with the argos page, it says "Hasbro My Little Pony Show Stable. Complete with "Lemon Drop" pony.
I would really like to know what is says about the pic with cp Sundance... :)

Edit again:

OK, I'm just going to tell my new and improved hypothesis LOL (since I love to try and solve mysteries, time will tell if this is proven true or not).

If this is a stock photo from Hasbro UK, and it was sent to Argos, it could be that Hasbro UK intended to do their own version of "Megans Place", except with just a cheaper reissue of the show stable in the same colors, but updated with a new pony -Sundance! (but this idea was cut)

Megans place was introduced in 1985 in North America, and Megan & Sundance was first introduced in UK in 1986.
I think this catalogue should have been around 1986. I just need to find it for my catalogue collection ^_^

:)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Gingerbread on January 08, 2017, 03:15:11 AM
Awesome! Well done fpr spotting it. So if Argos did their own photos then there is a chance this pony is knocking about in the UK somewhere...but more likely it's a Hasbro stock photo and the pony is long gone or rotting in a box in the mysterious Hasbro Vault...
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 08, 2017, 03:32:31 AM
Quote from: Gingerbread on January 08, 2017, 03:15:11 AM
Awesome! Well done fpr spotting it. So if Argos did their own photos then there is a chance this pony is knocking about in the UK somewhere...but more likely it's a Hasbro stock photo and the pony is long gone or rotting in a box in the mysterious Hasbro Vault...

It's quite likely that it's the same prototype pony used on the pic, that Ember1 now has in her collection. The pony was "knocking about" in the UK before that if I recall correctly. Quite a few prototypes of european exclusive ponies has been found in UK, I think the creators just took their prototypes home when they were done. :)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 08, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
Here is the prototype in my collection.
She look to be the same one as in the catalogue photo.
Forlock and symbols look the same. Someone prolly just took her home and
She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
g[/img][/URL]
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Great Hypothesis Ponyland.. We do know different versions of dream castle were released so why not the show stable?
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Vettefromm on January 08, 2017, 12:38:06 PM
This prototype is amazing, Ember1! How has she been confirmed as a prototype?

Quote from: Ember1 on January 08, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 08, 2017, 01:15:47 PM
Kasin and a few other oldbie collectors have seen the pony first hand and we dont think this prototype was mass produced. Its conceivable from the catalogue photo that it was intended to be mass produced. Perhaps there were a few CP sundances made and distributed early on? Then plans for factory production halted for whatever reason and samples destroyed. All but one so far.

My cp sundance and prototype painting time are examples of pre-production prototypes. So if she was intended to be a US or UK release judging by the catalogue photo something stopped hasbro from taking the pony into full scale factory production for distribution.

We have seen hasbro do this with other catalogue prototypes. The first tooth baby sundance comes to mind. I wish that prototype would surface.

I found an old arena post and a member mamed Karlee seemed to have some very good insight into the prototype process.

Link
http://www.mlparena.com/archive/Forums/viewtopic/t=158570.html
...............
Summarized below

karlee says

Hopefully I can shed a little light on some of the prototype process for those interested and i should state that because no one has ever really taken the time to track down MLP designers and ask these kinds of questions, most of this is based on experience with other Hasbro prototypes and from the first hand experience i have with the protos in my collection.

There were never any strict guidelines determining just how many examples were to be made for each prototype stage so there's no hard and fast rule for trying to figure this out. The general industry consensus would be that possibly one or more wax casts would be made directly from the wax sculpt. The sculpt and/or those casts would be used to create the roto molds but it's very possible that another was used to create hardcopy prototypes (resin casts made from the original wax prototypes). The hardcopies would most likely have been hand painted and used as final paint masters where one would stay in house and one would be sent to the factory. It would not have been uncommon for more than one hardcopy to be made. Once the production molds were ready, the molds would need to be tested and those resulting items are known as first or test shots. The majority of the MLP prototypes on the market are first shots.

To break it down:
First stage: wax sculpt
Second stage: hardcopy
Third stage: first shot

When it comes to collecting prototypes, it's not how many were made, but how many survived. As of now, i have yet to see any surviving wax sculpts in collections and the picture Lancer posted below is probably the only G1 hardcopy i have seen before (more on that to come). There are several first shots out there.

hathorcat wrote:
d this is how we go about getting copy and standard images before launches - sometimes the tweaks which happen during production havent been finialised by the time we need artwork or photogtaphs therefore product developers have to actually "build" the item - usually we use clay/wood or heavy plastics depending on the item - this is why sometimes the picture on an advert or on the packaing might look different than the actual product. its quicker now than we used to be; research and design to product develpment is a faster process than back in the 70s and 80s but this is an old fashioned method which has been going on for years and i assume its how hasbro will go about things. sometimes to convince a client or a marketing manager or a reseach panel that a product will sell you have to show it to them - you cant put a product into production produce 10000 bow ties and hope that little girls will just love them, you have to create 1 bow tie and pitch to an audience and creating that 1 bow tie in a studio rather than in a factory is easier and cheaper.

I would assume that Hasbro's MLP process would be quite similar to that of their other lines. The very first step for the R&D team would be to come up with ideas for new ponies in a meeting. From there these ponies would be designed as sketches and then progress to more detail art renderings known as presentation art. This art would be presented to managers and once approved, the designer would create sculpture sheets (also known as turn arounds) which show the ponies from several different angles. These sheets would go to the sculptor who would start the 3D prototyping process as outlined above.

Now, because MLPs reuse bodies and heads over and over, it could be surmised that the R&D team would have blank first shot bodies around the workshop which they could mix and match and paint up based on their newest ideas. These pieces could have been used in presentation or in catalogue and box photography. It's also plausible that because of this, the wax sculpt and hardcopy processes may have been skipped for ponies utilizing pre-existing body parts. Again, i can't see the pics above so i can't comment on them but this is certainly a plausible explanation for them.

In the vintage days, Hasbro wasn't as concerned about keeping track of prototypes as they are now. More often than not, these prototypes come from the people who were involved directly with the line. Often they kept them for their portfolios as examples of their work, simply because they liked them, to take home for their kids, or because they worked on the concepts at home. Over time, they get tucked away and come out during spring cleanings or when collectors and dealers come knocking on their doors. A lot of collectors from other hobbies spend a considerable amount of time networking with former employees which is how most vintage prototypes come to the marketplace.

G3 protos come from the factories in China, which is where the majority of the modern first shots seen on ebay from all toys lines originate. There are fairly lax security measures in the factories and stuff just happens to "walk away".

Lancer wrote:


But, unlike these three girls, she's ceramic. We figured out the ones on the pamphlets were made of plastic because of the visible neck seams, but the ones on the backcard appeared to be solid (and maybe ceramic-ish) like my baby.

Lancer, that's a GREAT piece! Are you sure it's ceramic? Is it possible that it's resin? I've not heard of ceramic being used in the production process before as it's too fragile and harder to cast. Resin seems much more likely and would fit into the process making it a hardcopy. How is the hair affixed to the head?
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Clipper on January 08, 2017, 07:00:19 PM
Quote from: Vettefromm on January 08, 2017, 12:38:06 PM
This prototype is amazing, Ember1! How has she been confirmed as a prototype?

Quote from: Ember1 on January 08, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
g[/img][/URL]
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I own a few prototypes, and they are distinctly different. From body textures, to hair and symbol colors.

I do recall that Embers CP Sundance pony has factory sewn hair, so that would indicate she has not been customized or altered in any way. From my understanding prototypes can be hand painted, as well as totally made in factory. The one Ember1 owns, for sure looks identical to the one in the catalog photograph and was found by a European source.

It may have been intended to be a UK exclusive release, and they decided to just re-release the megan and sudance as a set and not alter anything at all. Might have been cheaper for them in the long run, and they figured it would double the sale of having Lemon Drop stay in the playset, and then keeping Sundance with Megan.

 Since the G1 line information was not preserved or documented the way the newer generations are, we will never know why certain characters or designs were scratched. If former designers and employees care enough to step forward and tell the stories, or even remember we may get more answers. I doubt most of them would remember, or even care since to them it was just a job, and prototyppes weren't looked as something to be collectible or of value.

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: tootie_tails on January 09, 2017, 01:27:34 AM
It is very interesting to see the catalog picture. Where is it from? Has it been confirmed it's from Argos or is that just guessing?

I don't think it's the same as ember's pony though, sorry.
It's problematic that those catalog pictures look almost the same, it means they could have altered the picture. I remember another example of that, two pictures of the Grooming Parlour that look almost the same, pony altered to be Snuzzle instead of Peachy.
Also, the Sundance in the catalog picture appears to have a forelock that is much shorter than on ember's pony.

I hope you can find out more about that catalog picture. It would be great if we could see it in it's original context rather than just a cut out picture.


edit to add: the altered picture of Grooming Parlour is the box picture(?) for the parlour with Snuzzle... I think that playset actually exists, but the box picture is just edited.. it is mentioned in taffeta's website.


Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Vettefromm on January 09, 2017, 01:39:56 AM
Thank you Ember1 and Clipper for sharing your knowledge; I have learnt a lot! :) I would always be afraid a pony sold as prototype is a custom; especially if the hair looks too shiny compared to the hair used in the 80s and the body color is one that's easy to obtain. And with all the talented customizers out there today, she would be easy to fake. The factory weave is perhaps the only way to know for sure :)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 09, 2017, 06:33:10 AM
Tootsietails. I dont think we can see the full forlock length of the pony. It is hidden behind the stall door. You can see the bend of the hair on her forhead by the pressure of the door. Her symbol is in the same spot and looks about the same size also. The tail of the pony in the photo stretches out farther just like my pony.

I believe its the same one but  just as with any prototype in any catalogue photo we cant be sure there werent multiples protos created as that is part of the production process.  Any prototype out there will have a level of uncertainty. We can only look at the evidence we have. For this pony the evidence points to her being a prototype and im so glad there is some paper trail now.

And its important to remember that like Karlee stated prototypes come in three stages.

Stage 1 is Wax Sculpt-- like the bubbles wax model hasbro displays.
Stage 2 is hard copy to which cp sundance and paintingtime proto belong. Stage 3 is first shot to which the majority of prototypes that have been found belong to.

Most of stage 1 and 2 were destroyed. Stage 3 protos managed to survive more probably because more of them were produced through the factory at once.

Heres a pic of the factory weave ;)
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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kasin on January 09, 2017, 08:00:52 AM
The two photos (one with Lemon Drop and one with Sundance) look like the same photo shoot. The deliberate removal of Brandy and moving the fence and door makes it hard to argue a photo edit. I would guess they were considering an alternative release for the playset, maybe a store catalog exclusive (those were popular in the 80s and sometimes had variations like different colored accessories, alternative packaging etc.)

When Ember showed this pony to me and a couple other long time collectors we all remembered seeing it in a promo photo in the late 90s or early 2000's but we couldent find the photo again. I can't confirm, but I think it was a toy show cataloge or some other material not intended for distribution outside the industry, I could be wrong there, but that's what I remember. This photo fits my memory, so I think it's the one we saw in our early collecting years.

As far as proving a proto is real... Hasbro did not document possession of these because they saw them as production waste and intended for them to be destroyed to protect intellectual property and avoid any liability from a child playing with a pony not up to safety standards. So the only protos out there are by nature not going to have recognition  from Hasbro. We simply need to decide as a community if we accept them or not.  Honestly I don't know why this particular proto gets so much scrutiny? the painting time or baby Explorer seem more accepted and I don't understand why when they came from UK car boot sales with just as much providence as CP Sundance? Clippers recent sunspot proto was not questioned as much either?

And just to make a point (Devils advocate). It is possable to fake a prototype, a variant or even a full production. There are people with enough knowledge and/or access to production equipment that could easily produce something if they had motivation. The question is why bother, it dosent make enough money to warrant the effort and it would take alot of effort to make it pass as real.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: angelponies on January 09, 2017, 08:27:03 AM
I have been collecting Nirvana and oddballs for quite sometime and along with the ponies that have been found and seeing this gal I think she is legit, just my humble opinion :satisfied: I had the SS Gusty with blue eyes and eyelashes painted on the SS Posey with the painted on eyes and yellow hair so the folks that produced these ponies did some crazy things with them! I mean a Beddy eyed Sunlight is in the community now too! And I have seen a lot of different prototypes/ oddballs over the years, I even had bought a red haired G1 Tootsie from a gal who got it from a Hasbro employee, so I think Sundance is prototype, and Ember your are so lucky to own her!! She is so pretty in that pose! :satisfied:
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Vettefromm on January 09, 2017, 10:54:48 AM
Quote from: kasin on January 09, 2017, 08:00:52 AM
As far as proving a proto is real... Hasbro did not document possession of these because they saw them as production waste and intended for them to be destroyed to protect intellectual property and avoid any liability from a child playing with a pony not up to safety standards. So the only protos out there are by nature not going to have recognition  from Hasbro. We simply need to decide as a community if we accept them or not.  Honestly I don't know why this particular proto gets so much scrutiny? the painting time or baby Explorer seem more accepted and I don't understand why when they came from UK car boot sales with just as much providence as CP Sundance? Clippers recent sunspot proto was not questioned as much either?

Painting Time, Baby Explorer and Sunspot would be much, much harder to produce. And in all three cases the back stories have backed the prototype theory up. I am sorry if I sound like I'm giving Sundance such a hard time - I am just saying that she would be easy to make from a birthflower pony. The factory weave is a big deal (in my subjective opinion), and I also believe that she is real now :)

If I don't ask, I never learn ;)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 09, 2017, 11:26:56 AM
Quote from: tootie_tails
It is very interesting to see the catalog picture. Where is it from? Has it been confirmed it's from Argos or is that just guessing?

It's just a guess based on other Argos catalogs, so far. We really need to confirm were it comes from. Argos is a place to start looking, if we can't get an answer from the owner of the catalog. :) I'm actually thinking this pic originates from a Hasbro UK Toy catalogue, sent to retailers (who often used the pic's in their advertising). I collect those, but they are super hard to find (and expensive) . I only have the 1986, and 1989 one from UK. (But I have most of the years from US, and the pic is not present in them)

Quote from: tootie_tails on January 09, 2017, 01:27:34 AM
edit to add: the altered picture of Grooming Parlour is the box picture(?) for the parlour with Snuzzle... I think that playset actually exists, but the box picture is just edited.. it is mentioned in taffeta's website.

The edited box is very crudely done, more like someone had drawn a Snuzzle on top of Peachy. I don't have the saved pic on this computer.



Quote from: kasin on January 09, 2017, 08:00:52 AM
The two photos (one with Lemon Drop and one with Sundance) look like the same photo shoot. The deliberate removal of Brandy and moving the fence and door makes it hard to argue a photo edit. I would guess they were considering an alternative release for the playset, maybe a store catalog exclusive (those were popular in the 80s and sometimes had variations like different colored accessories, alternative packaging etc.)

I completely agree on that! My first thought was that it can't hardly be a photo edit with those differences, not in the 80's. And I too think it's the same photo shoot, the setting is to perfect a match for being done in 2 separate occasions. That's why I'm guessing a Hasbro UK photo shoot, and that it was sent out to retailers. The low quality of the Sundance image (grainy and yellowed) suggest that its printed on thin cheap paper like in a toy magazine. Hasbro UK Toy Catalogues for retailers has a high quality/glossy pages that doesn't yellow easy. Thats why I'm guessing that Argos could have reprinted the pic in their advertising, since they also had other "exclusive" stuff like snuzzle with pretty parlor and snuzzle with baby Bow-Tie and stroller., (poor surplus Snuzzle). But it could be from another retailer in UK too, I just don't know of any other that large.

But I'm really eager to know what that catalogue collector actually have! It's all guessing and speculations until we know that! :)


Quote from: kasin
And just to make a point (Devils advocate). It is possable to fake a prototype, a variant or even a full production. There are people with enough knowledge and/or access to production equipment that could easily produce something if they had motivation. The question is why bother, it dosent make enough money to warrant the effort and it would take alot of effort to make it pass as real.

All that matters when collecting prototypes is the provenance, and how it was discovered. Like my first shot FF Blue Belle with spots as symbol. She was found in Rhode Island, and looks exactly like the Hasbro Toy Fair catalog - and has traces of white paint under her feet that matches the white painted podiums the ponies were standing on when they were photographed.

It's harder with a pony with partial hand painted details though, but the way this pony was found  - and how she looks, the finish, makes me really believe in her being a prototype. I think that she really looks like she was made long before collectors started to customize ponies. And now with this catalogue pic being found I feel confident that she is the same one used for that photoshoot. :) (the coincidence that a CP Sundance being made as a custom, and looking exactly like the one in this picture, which existence is not common knowledge, is also just too slim to me)

The important part is that if she is recognized by the community as a prototype, then she is a prototype. We can't prove it any more than she already has been proved.  I can only say, that if she was for sale now in the community as a prototype, I would buy her! I can't give any more endorsement than that!  ;)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: princessluna11706 on January 09, 2017, 07:37:52 PM
Wow Ember, this is even more convincing evidence for me :) I really believe she's legit.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: tootie_tails on January 10, 2017, 12:58:57 AM
I don't believe they are the same pony, mostly because of the forelock.

The pony in the catalog picture has a normal forelock, the typical forelock that makes a soft curve and ends about where the pony's nostrils are. Like you would expect on a pony like that, like Lemondrop for example.

And ember's pony has a much longer forelock.

I still think it would be great if we could see the picture in its original context. I hope you can contact the person you got the picture from, and that they still have the catalog.


Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: daffodil101 on January 10, 2017, 02:26:21 AM
This is so exciting!  This proves that at some point an actual physical hasbro-made CP Sundance definitely existed, 100% genuine.  I don't think that the fall of her hair indicates the pony in the catalogue is different than Ember's-- collectors love to groom and style their ponies and the photo is low-res and she's obscured by the playset. 

i think since CP Sundance was first brought into the community (bought by Ember) it's been established beyond reasonable doubt that she is genuine and not a custom.  In Ember's thread a number of very experienced collectors went to inspect the pony in person and unanimously agreed that in their opinions she was genuine.  I'm inclined to go with their expertise.

I know the theories and what-ifs will continue to circulate, but certainly to me the evidence overwhelmingly points to Sundance being the real deal. 


Just an addendum as well...  [edit for backseat modding, this is an open discussion. The mods will make sure it stays on track :) love pkw xxx] Sundance's authenticity, as it has already been discussed very thoroughly and is probably a bit depressing for Ember.  Instead maybe go check out the original thread where it's been discussed at length, it's a great read to refresh your memory or if she's new to you!

http://mlparena.com/index.php/topic,366660.240.html (http://mlparena.com/index.php/topic,366660.240.html)

Thanks for sharing the photo Ember!   :grouphug:
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: LadyGuinevere on January 10, 2017, 08:20:18 AM
It is perfectly acceptable to debate the authenticity of a pony (not just this one!) regardless of whether it has been said before, as if we never challenge things (in general), we don't learn more. Everyone is going to have an opinion and we don't all have to agree.

Myself, I'd really like to see the rest of the scanned page. It looks so close to the one from Argos, but is missing the number reference on the image and I don't recall seeing an Argos scan of that particular one (there are a lot of scanned catalogues around across the different years). As far as we know, Argos did produce their own pictures, normally with existing products though, as typically they are not overly ahead of the game. Once it's in the catalogue, it's in the shop - they don't come out ahead of time - so no need to use a prototype. It's always possible they shared images with another catalogue, perhaps elsewhere and the rest of the page would give interesting provenance to the image itself to consider things further.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 09:25:07 AM
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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Too much skepticism when evidence consistently point to an authentic pony creates a negative connotation with sharing new discoveries. For instance, I have a few other oddities in my collection and I am a bit hesitant to share them with the community.. I can understand everyone has their own opinion but finding and sharing CP Sundance with the community has been a very stressful experience for me. I find so much time and energy is devoted to proving that she's real when I already know she is real.

 All I am saying is that when sharing new discoveries becomes so draining and they loose the excitement of the discovery due to constant negativity it starts to become not worth it for me.. I would rather appreciate and share them privately ;)

Before the skeptics wanted catalogue proof that she existed. It took years for that evidence to finally surface. Now you want the full article. And then if we ever get that something else will be needed. No matter how much proof is assembled here it never seems to be good enough for a few members.   

 This is an amazing discovery and I am very happy its been made. It sound like other community members are happy as well. 


:party: :party: :party:

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kitkatvintage on January 10, 2017, 09:53:39 AM
Quote from: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 09:25:07 AM
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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The accessories shown in that Parlour promo picture are similar to what is shown in the 1983 US Hasbro toy fair catalog pictures. The cat shown in the US Hasbro catalog is more cartoon-ish than the one that was produced for the Parlor, and the other items seem to be quick mock-ups with a lower quality plastic basket & some handmade looking reins & hat decorations. Perhaps (at least in 1983/4 at the very beginning of the line) Argos did have some pre-production items for their photos. I really don't know much about Argos photos other than what the longtime UK pony people  have shared online, so that's really all I have to add here. ;)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: angelponies on January 10, 2017, 12:16:58 PM
Quote from: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 09:25:07 AM
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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Too much skepticism when evidence consistently point to an authentic pony creates a negative connotation with sharing new discoveries. For instance, I have a few other oddities in my collection and I am a bit hesitant to share them with the community.. I can understand everyone has their own opinion but finding and sharing CP Sundance with the community has been a very stressful experience for me. I find so much time and energy is devoted to proving that she's real when I already know she is real.

The enjoyment of the thrill of finding a genuine piece of the hasbro history is lost. I don't know if i want to go through that with the few other gems I have.. Its just my personal decision though.. Everyone is entitled to do as they like. All I am saying is that when sharing new discoveries becomes so draining and they loose the excitement of the discovery due to constant negativity it starts to become not worth it for me.. I would rather appreciate and share them privately ;)

Before the skeptics wanted catalogue proof that she existed. It took years for that evidence to finally surface. Now you want the full article. And then if we ever get that something else will be needed. No matter how much proof is assembled here it never seems to be good enough for the skeptics.  It is very draining as im always fighting for the truth. If some people want to believe otherwise it their choice. Im just done trying to appease. This is an amazing discovery and I am very happy its been made. It sound like other community members are happy as well. 


:party: :party: :party:


Quote from: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 09:25:07 AM
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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Too much skepticism when evidence consistently point to an authentic pony creates a negative connotation with sharing new discoveries. For instance, I have a few other oddities in my collection and I am a bit hesitant to share them with the community.. I can understand everyone has their own opinion but finding and sharing CP Sundance with the community has been a very stressful experience for me. I find so much time and energy is devoted to proving that she's real when I already know she is real.

The enjoyment of the thrill of finding a genuine piece of the hasbro history is lost. I don't know if i want to go through that with the few other gems I have.. Its just my personal decision though.. Everyone is entitled to do as they like. All I am saying is that when sharing new discoveries becomes so draining and they loose the excitement of the discovery due to constant negativity it starts to become not worth it for me.. I would rather appreciate and share them privately ;)

Before the skeptics wanted catalogue proof that she existed. It took years for that evidence to finally surface. Now you want the full article. And then if we ever get that something else will be needed. No matter how much proof is assembled here it never seems to be good enough for the skeptics.  It is very draining as im always fighting for the truth. If some people want to believe otherwise it their choice. Im just done trying to appease. This is an amazing discovery and I am very happy its been made. It sound like other community members are happy as well. 


:party: :party: :party:




I am sorry Ember :hug: I would absolutely love to see your post your other gems as I have seen them and tried to win a couple myself and they are definitely worth seeing!!

I think that she is legit, I think that she is a prototype too in my humble opinion, so I am going to believe that unless it is proven otherwise =) I remember when you first posted about her, as I had missed out on that auction when you won it as I had not been on to outbid you muaaahahaha ;) Now there is a photo of her in the 80's catalog or one of her  :) it looks like her bang might be hidden behind the stall door :fox:

There will always be skeptics, even on things proven time and time again, just in general there always is it's how life goes, I know that the continual skepticism of some gets tiresome, but please don't let that keep you from sharing :hug: I really enjoy you sharing these wonderful finds! And I know how it is, when you find one of these gems and want to share it with others :heart:
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kasin on January 10, 2017, 02:20:00 PM
That parlor absolutly must be a proto with those weird accessories. Honestly Butterscotch looks a little off to me too, but I can't figure out what it is that is off about her. It's possable she is proto too. This would suggest Argos did work with photos of protos.

CP Sundance must be the most scrutinized pony in the community at this point. We accept plenty of other variants that are difficult or impossable to prove like reverse gusty, white windy, white Italian firefly, all the doll hospital  rehairs from South America.  Why is this one so contested? Do we even have a proper paper trail for every country's licencing?

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 02:48:46 PM
I think most community members at this point accept cp sundance as a genuine prototype. Its hard not to at this point with additional catalogue photo evidence. I just think some people probably dont want to believe no matter what evidence you show them. Its frustrating but its their choice. But the legit evidence is still there. And if your going to scrutinize one prototype to the extent cp sundance has been scritinized do it for them all - variants and prototypes alike. And also expect that owners of new pony discoveries in the future may not be so forthcoming and rightfully so.

 As I said before, a healthy level of skeptisism is good when looking at variants but when there is overwealming evidence proving the ponys authenticity then that continual level of skeptisism is very detrimental to the collecting community and its members.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 10, 2017, 03:28:01 PM
Let's keep this topic on track and remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'd like to add, it is tricky when you come across a very unique variant. As far as I know I was the first person to own Princess Prawn (Princess Dawn's head and Princess Ruby's body) I told NO ONE, because she is so crazy and I knew no one would believe me as at the time I was still new to the community. I had her for a year before I discovered BabyKittenCandy had one too. She came upto me at PonyCon 2005 and started describing this princess variant she had and I finished off describing it :P but with other ponies, it's just not as simple as finding two.

Going back on topic, I'd love to find out, if possible, which catalogue the "Sundance Show Stable" picture was published in. It might have some other gems in we've yet to learn about.

I can't help but think of the Megan's Place playset when I see that of Sundance in the show stable.

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 05:04:32 PM
I still find it amazing that my CP prototype Sundance survived ultimate hasbro destruction. The catalogue photo of her is also just as amazing. So many things are thrown out over the years. Its amazing any prototypes have survived at all. I guess thats why collecting them is so special. They are living Hasbro history.

And the butterscotch looks odd to me as well. Certainly not a FF.  Just look at that brown saddle and unusual accessories.
What are those numbers underneath where the pony is standing? That cat is different to the one released in the normal version.

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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: tootie_tails on January 11, 2017, 02:08:52 AM
I don't think most people think of ember's pony as "genuine" or "fake". The pony has question mark status.
My personal opinion, I don't think it has been proved either way yet. And I don't think the pony in the catalog picture is ember's.
I wouldn't be in such a hurry to decide either. There have been many question mark ponies over the years and often it took a long time before we knew. We will probably find more information about this pony too.

Did you try to contact the person you got the picture from?

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: SaveThePonies on January 11, 2017, 05:53:11 AM
I have all the Argos catalogues from the 80's and 90's in the UK. I have been looking through them to try and find this Sundance picture and so far I have had no luck.
I don't think the picture came from an Argos catalogue in any event as it is not the correct format, ALL Argos items have a number on the picture and the picture with Sundance in the stable doesn't have an item number.
I will carry on looking and when I have found all the Show Stable's I will share the pictures in this thread :)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 11, 2017, 06:14:46 AM
I guess i just completely disagree tootsietails and i know other members feel the same as I do as they have already said so. CP Sundance now has as much proof as any other prototype has. Even more than some do as most dont have catalogue or promo evidence proving their existance. Should all prototypes be looked at as ??????? within the community?

There will always be mystery with any prototype but to give them all an indefinate question status isnt the answer in my opinion.
I choose to celebrate the new findings we discover and accept them based on the evidence that we have. We will never have the whole picture. But that doesn't stop me from accepting and appreciating what is. 

That the last ill be saying on this topic. I hope everyone enjoyed the new discovery. I know I did. Hasbro history is amazing and I hope there will be many more new discoveries in the future.

P.S i do hope the rest of that promo magazine turns up too.
 :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 14, 2017, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: SaveThePonies on January 11, 2017, 05:53:11 AM
I have all the Argos catalogues from the 80's and 90's in the UK. I have been looking through them to try and find this Sundance picture and so far I have had no luck.
I don't think the picture came from an Argos catalogue in any event as it is not the correct format, ALL Argos items have a number on the picture and the picture with Sundance in the stable doesn't have an item number.
I will carry on looking and when I have found all the Show Stable's I will share the pictures in this thread :)

That's great work SaveThePonies! :) If it isn't present in them it would mean that the image probably is a stock photo from Hasbro, and that Argos didn't always arrange their own photo shoots. I wish I could find the UK Hasbro Toy Catalogue, sent to retailers, from 1985 and 1984. She is not present in the 1986 catalogue, but she could be in one of them...
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 14, 2017, 04:21:10 PM
Ponyland I went looking for images of Megan's Place to see if CP Sundance features in one of the images, but hit a dead end :( The Sears Catalogue images only have shy pose Sundance and Megan's Place in the correct colours.

Let's see what STP finds ^.^

I guess eliminating things is the way to starts!

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Taxel on January 15, 2017, 12:57:38 AM
Oh Ember, CP Sundance is so beautiful! I'm so happy to see such a unique Sundance prototype has survived and is in loving hands.

I think the similarities are enough to prove her as real. The symbol is very distinctive and low on the catalogue photo. It looks like her forelock is tucked behind her face and the fence, similar to how it hangs in your photo Ember. Of course it would be awesome to get a higher quality scan, or even photo, of the catalogue image but really... I don't see a reason for so much heavy skepticism about this one pony. I doubt people would let up even if Sundance was posed in a reaction of the catalogue shot and it looked almost identical (as I'm sure it would). :/

Sundance is gorgeous! Congrats on owning her and finding the catalogue evidence, Ember! I hope you continue to share her with the community despite all the negativity.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 15, 2017, 03:05:06 AM
Quote from: Ember1 on January 10, 2017, 05:04:32 PM
I still find it amazing that my CP prototype Sundance survived ultimate hasbro destruction. The catalogue photo of her is also just as amazing. So many things are thrown out over the years. Its amazing any prototypes have survived at all. I guess thats why collecting them is so special. They are living Hasbro history.

And the butterscotch looks odd to me as well. Certainly not a FF.  Just look at that brown saddle and unusual accessories.
What are those numbers underneath where the pony is standing? That cat is different to the one released in the normal version.

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Interesting pic!!

Below is how the Prototype show stable is pictured in the 1983 Hasbro Toy Catalog from the toy fair in february 1983. (my own example)
(there should be a even earlier version, which was sent out in december to promote the upcoming years toy's, known as the Spring Catalog, I haven't seen the pic's in that one though, but often the prototypes are in a earlier stage in the early catalog.)

Hasbro UK had their own Toy Catalogues, and I think that the pic of butterscotch with pretty parlor most likely is from the 1983 Hasbro UK catalogue.But I haven't found any jet for my collection. :)


(notice the similarities in the set up, with the green back drop used in both the Argos pic (although grainy image quality ) and the clean and non grainy Hasbro catalog... I really think the Argos picture was taken by Hasbro UK. It's just as with the pic's of Sundance Stable and Lemon Drop Stable. Same back drop for them both.  )
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edited to ad:

Quote from: pinkkittywinks on January 14, 2017, 04:21:10 PM
Ponyland I went looking for images of Megan's Place to see if CP Sundance features in one of the images, but hit a dead end :( The Sears Catalogue images only have shy pose Sundance and Megan's Place in the correct colours.

Let's see what STP finds ^.^

I guess eliminating things is the way to starts!

Love pkw xxx

That's great work PKW! :)

Eliminating is a slow process, but it will take us somewhere in the end. I'm confident that we will find the catalog, and the origin of the pic!
I just NEED to know what is written about the stable with Sundance! I'm so curious! :)

I't would be so cool to have a picture of the catalog together with the Sundance prototype! ;) Sort of like this (I just snapped this for you as an example):
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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kasin on January 15, 2017, 09:50:16 AM
Show stable Blossom looks proto too, different symbols, short tail and very pink, the pony also matches the proto in the second photo pony land posted of the known protos.  Also worth noting that the two prototype parlors are different! look at the hooks and cats! wonder how many versions Hasbro went through and used for shoots??

might also be worth pointing out that these are some of the first ponies and playsets released, so there might have been more promotional material made using the prototypes than the later years when the MLP brand was better established.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 15, 2017, 01:01:13 PM
Here you go ponyland. A pretty picture of her and the catalogue photo together. And for fun i put card underneath her muzzle to see what her hair would do. Looks identical to the catalogue photo. Look at the shape of her tail. Same shape :) symbols are the same size and same location. I like the photo and pony together.

Wow that blossom looks like a prototype too. Her symbols are in a different placement that the regular release.

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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 15, 2017, 03:44:45 PM
I'm loving these side by side pictures :green:

That Twinkles makes me smile everytime I see it, reminds me of the Cheshire Cat :lol:

Ponyland I came across the 1986 catalogue on my search too :) I haven't found a 1985 one yet. There are catalogues out there though! Many seem to be owned and shared by other toy collectors. I notice GIJoe and Transformers websites have shared scans of some early catalogues, 1982 I think?

The brown saddle worn and tan coloured bridle in the Parlour with Blossom also appears in a Show Stable photo shoot, along with Brandy who has a patch over one eye. This is in the 1983 Hasbro toy fair catalogue.

http://news.tfw2005.com/2012/12/31/hasbro-1982-1995-toy-fair-retailers-catalog-scans-images-176585

I have been looking to see if I can spot any other ponies such as alternate pose Sunny Bunch and HeRtthrob with winged hearts. No such luck yet.

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: angelponies on January 15, 2017, 06:05:42 PM
WOW those photos are great Ember!! It is neat seeing her next to her ad! Those other ads are crazy too!! With Blossom and that Twinkles cat LOL they are all definitely in the Oddball/prototype category of ponies!!!! So awesome!! :biggrin: loving all the new finds! Please continue to share too Em :heart:
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Gingerbread on January 16, 2017, 03:00:59 PM
Quote from: Ponyland on January 08, 2017, 03:32:31 AM
It's quite likely that it's the same prototype pony used on the pic, that Ember1 now has in her collection. The pony was "knocking about" in the UK before that if I recall correctly. Quite a few prototypes of european exclusive ponies has been found in UK, I think the creators just took their prototypes home when they were done. :)

Thank you :) It makes me shudder to think of any prototypes just being chucked away.

Quote from: Ember1 on January 08, 2017, 08:49:47 AM
Here is the prototype in my collection.
She look to be the same one as in the catalogue photo.
Forlock and symbols look the same. Someone prolly just took her home and
She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
g[/img][/URL]
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Wow she is beautiful, thank you for sharing! Not seen her before, you are so lucky to have her in your collection :inlove:

I am loving these photos, and love seeing protos and oddballs anyway and with a bit of mystery thrown in, well,  this thread is pony heaven :D I would adore a prototype one day, I don't have anything like that at all, it would be awesome.

Is there any possibility the pic could be from a TRU or Woolworths catalogue?
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 16, 2017, 03:07:50 PM
Quote from: Ember1 on January 15, 2017, 01:01:13 PM
Here you go ponyland. A pretty picture of her and the catalogue photo together. And for fun i put card underneath her muzzle to see what her hair would do. Looks identical to the catalogue photo. Look at the shape of her tail. Same shape :) symbols are the same size and same location. I like the photo and pony together.

Wow that blossom looks like a prototype too. Her symbols are in a different placement that the regular release.

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I LOVE THIS! :D

Thank you for posting Ember1 !!

It's obvious to me that the symbol is exactly on the same place of the pony, and looking exactly the same in the shape. Considering that the symbol is hand painted, not stamped, I find it beyond doubt that your prototype is the very same pony as in the picture!

And also the picture with the forelock behind the card really proves the point!  :cool:

And just look at the base of that tail, sticking straight out from her behind! :lol:  This is not how MLP usually look, but they are both exactly the same!   
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 16, 2017, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Gingerbread on January 16, 2017, 03:00:59 PM

Is there any possibility the pic could be from a TRU or Woolworths catalogue?

I didn't know Woolies had any kind of catalogue? Looks like they did I think :)

http://www.woolworthsmuseum.co.uk/toyztogether.htm

I still miss Woolworths  :cry:

Toys R Us is another good line of research. I remember Zodiac and Toy and Hobby selling ponies too, as well as WHSmiths.

Love pkw xxx

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: LadyMoondancer on January 16, 2017, 05:38:57 PM
I think Ember1's Sundance is a real prototype.  I'm not sure if she the exact SAME prototype in the picture.  But in any case this proves that Hasbro toyed (heh) with the idea of having a CP Sundance.

Regarding the idea of it being a photo-edit--remember that in the 80s no one had Photoshop.  It would have taken a huge amount of time and money to photo-edit a picture like that.

To give an idea of how hard it was, here is an example I read on the blog of a guy who did toy design in the 70s.  So, he was commissioned to do a paper doll of the teen heart throb from "The Partridge Family" TV show.  They had the guy get down to boxers and undershirt and took a picture of him.  However . . .

Quote
The final photographs were a disaster.  No one had anticipated the inappropriateness of male body hair.  Photoshop hadn’t been invented, yet, to shave his legs digitally, and airbrushing would have been more expensive than taking the shot over again.  So Bill looked for another model willing to use Nair.

When that search proved unsuccessful he came up with a solution that has remained a secret till this day.  He posed the shot with a young girl instead.  A multitude of little girls, and David too, never knew they were dressing and undressing a prepubescent young lady with David Cassidy’s head. 
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: SaveThePonies on January 17, 2017, 11:12:57 AM
As promised scans from the Argos catalogues of all the show stable pics

Autumn 84/85
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Spring summer 85
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Autumn 85/86
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Spring summer 86
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Autumn 86/87
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Autumn 90/91
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Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 18, 2017, 04:21:29 PM
Thank you for sharing those amazing scans STP :bigups:

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: tootie_tails on January 19, 2017, 03:39:38 AM
Quote from: LadyMoondancer on January 16, 2017, 05:38:57 PM
But in any case this proves that Hasbro toyed (heh) with the idea of having a CP Sundance.
I agree with this part. The picture definitely speaks in favor of an existing sundance prototype.

It would have been good if we could find a bigger version though. I know if it had been me who found the tiny picture online I would be all over it. I would have tried to contact the person who posted it and asked politely if they know anything about it, if they have the source, if they would be willing to scan it and so on. But the people who found it don't seem to be interested in doing that, and I'm not sure why as a better quality picture could be in favor of ember's pony.

I don't think anyone wants ember's pony to be fake, everyone wants the pony to be genuine. Everyone will be happy if/when it has been confirmed. It's just the rush to make a verdict that isn't good.

There have been so many ponies where it took a long time before we knew what they were. There was a picture of a pegasus (venezuela Medley? I think) that was floating around for years. It was exciting to hear peoples thoughts about it back then.
I also remember when the piggy ponies surfaced. I was one of the people who believed they were real from the start. Then there were some people who refused to believe they were real, even when several mocs had been found and people found information about the production and such. So they were definitely debated. But I don't remember anyone trying to pick a fight over it or bullying someone because they had a different opinion.
The people who didn't think the piggies were real, I'm guessing they changed their mind eventually. And if they didn't, that's their problem. It isn't something to pick a fight over.
 
Reading the comments about uk catalogs here I realized I have one of those too. I don't remember seeing anything extraordinary like this when I bought it, but I will get it out of storage and have a look just in case.


Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 19, 2017, 03:51:18 AM
Tootietails.

There has been no rush to confirm sundance. It has been over two years in the making. From my perpective and involvement, I am going to put this to rest now. There is nothing left to confirm. There is catalogue evidence and it certainly looks like the exact same pony in the catalogue. She is factory weaved and shes been inspected and confirmed by a few oldbie collectors.

Thats pretty much as far as this case can be explored and shes completely confirmed in my viewpoint. If you dont feel that way its fine but the rest of the collectors that do feel this way are going to continue to enjoy this new discovery and celebrate her like the other prototypes that exist in the community. Its amazing any of them have survived at all.

FYI
The member that posted the picture has not been active in quite a while so things are stagnant on that end but additional information doesn't serve to further confirm her in my belief.. She is confirmed now in my seasoned opinion.

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ponyland on January 19, 2017, 09:21:57 AM
I'm very happy that Ember1 continued to actively searching for this pic after she found the prototype, 2 years ago! :) It was such a great job finding the pic Ember1, and so great of you to share it with the community!

And now we can all help out to continue to look for the origin of the catalogue, because that is fun! And I'm only here for the fun part. :)


Edited to ad:

Great job SaveThePonies!! And it was fun looking on the scan's! I have a soft spot for advertising... ^_^
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Strandperle on January 19, 2017, 10:30:28 AM
I still wonder how she ended up in German ebay :D I remember seeing the auction back then.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kasin on January 19, 2017, 10:39:01 AM
It looks like both Ember and Tootie are feeling bullied.

I don't think anyone has a problem with different people having different opinions, I think the issue is that it feels like this pony is getting more scrutiny than others. For example, it's been rejected for the nirvana gallery pending proof it's real, yet other ponies that could be disputed are included like white windy who many collectors are not convinced of yet.

Maybe we need some kind of minimum standards for the community to list a pony as a accepted variant. It wouldn't mean every collector needs to agree it's legitimate, but it could help avoid the current situation.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: shelvesofwhimsy on January 19, 2017, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: tootie_tails on January 19, 2017, 03:39:38 AM
Quote from: LadyMoondancer on January 16, 2017, 05:38:57 PM
But in any case this proves that Hasbro toyed (heh) with the idea of having a CP Sundance.
I agree with this part. The picture definitely speaks in favor of an existing sundance prototype.

It would have been good if we could find a bigger version though. I know if it had been me who found the tiny picture online I would be all over it. I would have tried to contact the person who posted it and asked politely if they know anything about it, if they have the source, if they would be willing to scan it and so on. But the people who found it don't seem to be interested in doing that, and I'm not sure why as a better quality picture could be in favor of ember's pony.

I don't think anyone wants ember's pony to be fake, everyone wants the pony to be genuine. Everyone will be happy if/when it has been confirmed. It's just the rush to make a verdict that isn't good.

There have been so many ponies where it took a long time before we knew what they were. There was a picture of a pegasus (venezuela Medley? I think) that was floating around for years. It was exciting to hear peoples thoughts about it back then.
I also remember when the piggy ponies surfaced. I was one of the people who believed they were real from the start. Then there were some people who refused to believe they were real, even when several mocs had been found and people found information about the production and such. So they were definitely debated. But I don't remember anyone trying to pick a fight over it or bullying someone because they had a different opinion.
The people who didn't think the piggies were real, I'm guessing they changed their mind eventually. And if they didn't, that's their problem. It isn't something to pick a fight over.
 
Reading the comments about uk catalogs here I realized I have one of those too. I don't remember seeing anything extraordinary like this when I bought it, but I will get it out of storage and have a look just in case.

I think seeing Ember's CP Sundance next to the photo is a dead ringer for me! Whether or not she is the exact pony in the picture, I'm sure that they had hand painted protos they used for the shot, and it could easily be this one.

And as for the photo resolution, even if we did find a high quality scan, if the printing itself is a low resolution image it won't really help to prove too much. For instance: I was super interested in an unreleased LPS set from the 90s. I was finally able to get my hands on a backcard and scanned it around 300dpi. The results were still disappointing. The figures I wanted to blow up were still just as blurry and appeared to be made of 100s of tiny dots (similar to pixels). So I wasn't able to achieve the close up accuracy I wanted.

So even if we do someday find a better image it might not help solve any more riddles. I think the evidence is pretty heavily weighted in CP Sundance's favor! But either way its so exciting seeing these new ponies, and hopefully this won't discourage you too much Ember!
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: angelponies on January 19, 2017, 11:27:47 AM
Quote from: kasin on January 19, 2017, 10:39:01 AM
It looks like both Ember and Tootie are feeling bullied.

I don't think anyone has a problem with different people having different opinions, I think the issue is that it feels like this pony is getting more scrutiny than others. For example, it's been rejected for the nirvana gallery pending proof it's real, yet other ponies that could be disputed are included like white windy who many collectors are not convinced of yet.

Maybe we need some kind of minimum standards for the community to list a pony as a accepted variant. It wouldn't mean every collector needs to agree it's legitimate, but it could help avoid the current situation.

I agree with this, In my humble opinion I think that Ember is hesitant about sharing any new ponies she has found, because of the scrutiny that she received on this particular pony =( and she has found some really awesome ones that I wish she'd share! I know that there is a BBE  Sunlight, a painted eye over variant SS Posey and a SS Gusty with alt eyes and painted on eyelashes that were received with open arms pretty quickly when no catalog evidence was ever found on them to my knowledge ;) so I can see why she would feel backed into a corner on this particular pony, who now has catalog evidence to back her up. I think Sundance should go in the gallery, Just my thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 19, 2017, 11:40:05 AM
I'm putting an official warning on this thread since I have already asked once to keep this thread on topic.

The purpose of this thread was for Ember1 to share her pictures of CP Sundance and to discuss the image and it's possible source.

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: SaveThePonies on January 19, 2017, 11:56:59 AM
I shared my scans - not to dispute the pony - but to show the Argos catalogue pics, while similar are not exactly the same :)
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: tootie_tails on January 21, 2017, 01:30:56 AM
Quote from: kasin on January 19, 2017, 10:39:01 AM

 I think the issue is that it feels like this pony is getting more scrutiny than others. For example, it's been rejected for the nirvana gallery pending proof it's real, yet other ponies that could be disputed are included like white windy who many collectors are not convinced of yet.


That's interesting, I didn't know ember's pony had been rejected for the nirvana gallery.

I checked it out now and yes, the "white" Windy is in there, but she is listed as just that, "White" Windy with quotation marks like that. And with this information added:
"White or Cream Windy with blue symbols: these are faded due to loss of pigment in the plastic, rather than being a true variant."
So white Windy hasn't been accepted as a genuine variant either.



Quote from: Ponyland on January 19, 2017, 09:21:57 AM

And now we can all help out to continue to look for the origin of the catalogue, because that is fun!


I agree.
I just checked my uk retailer catalog, but no luck. It's from 1989 so quite late in production. It has mostly ponies, a couple of playsets, but no Megan, Sundance or stable.




Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Ember1 on January 21, 2017, 08:07:19 AM
Prototype cp sundance is now being accepted into the gallery so thats good news :)

Very few examples exist from this stage of prototype production so i believe thats why there was hesitation at first. But now with the catalogue evidence, the fact that shes factory weaved, and has been inspected by other oldtime collectors shes fully confirmed in my view. And pinkkittywinks has told me she will be added right next to her prototype sister paintingtime who has many similarities. ;)

Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on January 21, 2017, 09:21:16 AM
Quote from: tootie_tails on January 21, 2017, 01:30:56 AM
Quote from: kasin on January 19, 2017, 10:39:01 AM

 I think the issue is that it feels like this pony is getting more scrutiny than others. For example, it's been rejected for the nirvana gallery pending proof it's real, yet other ponies that could be disputed are included like white windy who many collectors are not convinced of yet.


That's interesting, I didn't know ember's pony had been rejected for the nirvana gallery.


Sundance had neither been accepted or rejected  ;) this is because Ember1 hadn't donated a picture until now. CP Sundance is a tricky pony, but then again all ponies that fall into this category are very tricky.

The list of ponies missing in the Nirvana Gallery Donations thread is and has always been only a guideline. There are plenty of ponies missing off that list, either because we don't know about them or there are too many to list (I'm looking at you Colombian ponies)

The Nirvana Gallery is and always has been a living gallery. Things are constantly being moved, updated and changed as new ponies are found and new information is discovered.

I might moderate the nirvana forum and caretake the Nirvana Gallery, however admin decisions are always final and this also applies to the nirvana gallery.

 If anyone wishes to discuss this further please pm a moderator or admin :bigups:

Now lets go back to the topic which is Ember1's CP Sundance and the catalogue scan

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: Taffeta on February 06, 2017, 09:33:24 AM
Not to bring down the mood of the thread, and not to annoy the moderators, but I think I am justified in pointing out that if you borrow an image from someone's website, it's common courtesy to credit that source. I don't really like that the image of Butterscotch in the parlour, which is clearly watermarked from my site, has been reuploaded to photobucket and posted as if it's a random find as opposed to something put online in context. I don't mind people using my images and such, but I think its respectful to credit the source so that people don't have the image out of context.

I'm not interested in trying to prove Sundance doesn't exist. As far as I am concerned, I haven't seen her, and I don't comment on things I haven't seen. I am just fed up with the forced assumption she belongs in the UK line.

Basically what bothers me about this is that Argos took their own images of items. The Butterscotch one is a potential exception, but by 1985, when the similar Show Stable image appears, they are taking their own photos. The existence of a very similar photo to the Argos one raises flags and makes me wonder how and why. The matching Argos image is from Autumn/Winter 1985. Megan and Sundance came out in the UK in 1986 and 1987. We did not have Megan's Place here, and we had Home Sweet Home as the second Show Stable in 1990ish, with China Lemon Drop. If this image was taken at the same time as the Argos one, that suggests it was taken in summer 1985 at the latest, to go to print for Autumn.

But even if the people who took the Argos photos also took other photos for other stores, and this was a weird coincidence, the fact of the matter is that if this image got into a store catalogue, it must have been up for sale. And even if it was pulled at the last minute, it would have to appear in Hasbro brochures. And we have people in the community with the Hasbro brochures for all of the UK years, I believe. Someone would have flagged this up if it had happened in 1985. If it's not in Hasbro's books, it can't be in store catalogues. I am pretty sure that what happened was that Hasbro sent their brochure to stores, who chose what they'd stock and then got on with it. Argos were very pedantic about the things they stocked. They often had only one pony from certain sets (ie Bluebelle, Wind Whistler, Snowflake, Princess Sapphire). They DID have their own weird store exclusive releases, but again, they took the photos of those. Nothing from Hasbro. So that would imply an actual product that was there and was photographed. And that is a problem for me.

If we know from the other images that Argos are taking their own from actual stock, how do we get a pony that isn't in Hasbro's image catalogue for the UK into a UK store catalogue?

Bascially, the only answer is that if it's a store image, it comes from somewhere else. Somewhere we don't have catalogues for yet, and somewhere that happened to use the same photographer as Argos. But that's the missing factor in the equation.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: pinkkittywinks on February 06, 2017, 01:14:34 PM
Thank you for posting Taffeta :) you have an awful lot of knowledge regarding the Argos catalogues and the European and U.K. release pattern.

I've spent some time looking at various catalogue images (both store and retail) and found that there are so many different catalogues! I'd forgotten how catalogues were the online shopping of the day in the 80s and most things were bought via a catalogue. Interestingly, the V&A have a selection of Hasbro and MB store and retail catalogues you can book to see  :biggrin:

Going back to context; the reason why I'm curious to find out just which catalogue the image is from would place Sundance in a context. This would allow us to have a better understanding of her and perhaps other things we don't fully understand in the world of ponies. Who knows what else might be in the catalogue!!

Out of interest; I've added a scan advert for the School Time Ponies from a German comic to the nirvana gallery along side painted Painting Time. Even though the ponies are clearly different, it's useful to see them side by side as it give insite into the design process.

Love pkw xxx
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: kasin on February 06, 2017, 03:16:30 PM
Quote from: Taffeta on February 06, 2017, 09:33:24 AM
I'm not interested in trying to prove Sundance doesn't exist. As far as I am concerned, I haven't seen her, and I don't comment on things I haven't seen. I am just fed up with the forced assumption she belongs in the UK line.


The catalog photo of CP Sundance looks like it's from the same photo shoot as the photo that appears in the Argos catalog.  I think that is a fair  statement to make from observation. I don't think anyone is assuming or trying to force a assumption about Hasbros intent for the pony if she had a market release.

The show stable was one of the early releases in the European markets and even if Argos normally did things a particular way there is no way to know if they ever deviated from that protocol. They (hypothetically  ) may not have had the stable in hand in time for  their own photo shoot prior to publication and used a image provided by Hasbro or some other entity.  There are a myriad of other scenarios that could explain why this image matches the Argos image. It is possable that she was considered as a UK exclusive, why can't we say that?

As far as UK release of the shy pose Sundance, the character existed at the time of the Argos cataloge release in question, so it's irrelevant when, or that, she got a market release later.  Her CP  mold actually makes more sense in the context that she was considered for a earlier release arround the same time as the orginal 6, Peachy with parlor and 2 Euro CP variant bowtie and AJ. This is pure conjecture, but it all fits nicely together since  the CP mold was not popular for later years.
Title: Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
Post by: SaveThePonies on February 06, 2017, 06:10:01 PM
As a British person I have to say that Argos has always worked the same way. There are catalogues from the 70s that have the exact same format as the ones we have today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2527105/Chopper-bikes-typewriters-home-gyms-Artists-vintage-Argos-catalogue-reveals-pages-changed-36-years.html

I know that Taffeta has put a LOT of research and time into the UK line of ponies (years of research) and she is the most knowledgeable person in the UK about MLP.

I have posted pictures of ALL the show stables in the 80's and 90's Argos catalogues to show that, while there are similarities between the Argos pictures and the image Ember1 has shown, they are different enough that I feel you cannot say they could be from the same photo shoot. Also Argos is not really the type of catalogue that has prototypes, they are often a season behind other retailers in their releases for sale. Another point about Argos catalogues is that they also put the My Little Pony logo on the pictures.

The only 2 releases of Megan and Sundance in the Argos catalogues were Spring/Summer '86 and Spring/Summer '87.
I don't understand why, when it has been proven that the photo can't have come from an Argos catalogue, people are still trying to draw that conclusion?
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