Unofficial Renaming of G*psy?

[SpacePinto]

While I'm here I'm also going to bring up Wigwam.
His name ISN'T a slur which is fine and okay. But he is based off a blatantly racist caricature. Of course, different times, but we also need to acknowledge this too, because it's in the same vein as G*psy.

But Wigwam isn't supposed to be a Native himself, he just likes to play Cowboys and Indians with Tex.

[RoseNoire]

I never gave any conclusion to my previous comment. I was just saying "It doesn't sound offensive to me. Does it sound offensive to the targeted people ?" I never said it's okay to use Gypsy just because I don't think it's a slur. Like I said, only the targeted people have the final word on this debate.

Aside from this specific topic on the name "Gypsy", I'm not too huge on taboo-fying every word for x or y reason. It feels forbidden to openly and respectfully talk about some subjects because of that and that doesn't actually prevent people from using those in a disrespecful way. Because the issue isn't usually the word itself, but how and in which context it is used. I feel like that would decrease the awareness on our history in the long run and we'd repeat the same mistakes instead of learning from the past.

[Prince Firefly]

While I'm here I'm also going to bring up Wigwam.
His name ISN'T a slur which is fine and okay. But he is based off a blatantly racist caricature. Of course, different times, but we also need to acknowledge this too, because it's in the same vein as G*psy.

But Wigwam isn't supposed to be a Native himself, he just likes to play Cowboys and Indians with Tex.

Your location says you’re from Europe, so perhaps you don’t understand. Wigwam is based, undoubtedly, off a racist caricature. I will reiterate, without doubt.
“Cowboys and Indians”, when it was a thing here in the States (perhaps still is, but I do live in Alabama, a notoriously awful state, and I haven’t heard it of it being played in a few years), was a game reliant on stereotypical, racist portrayals of Native Americans. It’s among the reasons we are trying to end “Indian Day”s at schools- it’s promoting an offensive view of Natives that has actively hurt Native people (esp. Native kids).

Wigwam shouldn’t be a point of argument at all. He’s just noteworthy in this case.

I never gave any conclusion to my previous comment. I was just saying "It doesn't sound offensive to me. Does it sound offensive to the targeted people ?" I never said it's okay to use Gypsy just because I don't think it's a slur. Like I said, only the targeted people have the final word on this debate.

Aside from this specific topic on the name "Gypsy", I'm not too huge on taboo-fying every word for x or y reason. It feels forbidden to openly and respectfully talk about some subjects because of that and that doesn't actually prevent people from using those in a disrespecful way. Because the issue isn't usually the word itself, but how and in which context it is used. I feel like that would decrease the awareness on our history in the long run and we'd repeat the same mistakes instead of learning from the past.

Thanks for the clarification.

We should still recognize that many, many Romani people consider G*psy a slur! I’m on mobile at the moment, but if someone wants me to find sources of Romani people saying it is and why, I can find some when I get back on my computer.
Slurs are ABSOLUTELY context-dependent, but even when you say the word non-offensively (such in the case with our pony G*psy), it can be offensive.
Slurs, being said without being censored/the hurt its done not being addressed/said offensively, are never okay. Honestly, I’m going to tear into the next person I hear say “mental r*dardation” to refer to autism and other mental disorders who then adds “I didn’t mean it offensively”, precisely for this reason (sorry for slight vent, again I’m autistic and this is the only connection I can make to this argument that I have experience with). Slurs are not okay, in most if not EVERY context. /nm /nbr

I think, at least in the US, it’d be better if we called her Tambourine, I’m glad some people agree with me here!
For those in the UK: perhaps use Tambourine to remain on the safe side until we get a proper opinion from a Romani person in or near the community.

[vira]

with regards to "g*psy* being used in official contexts, it's not unheard of or even uncommon for words that are considered slurs to have been used in everything from diagnoses to legal paperwork.

"mental r*tardation" was still a diagnosis that was in use up until the early aughts, when the DSM-5 changed it. the US census used to include terms for people of color that are recognized as slurs nowadays.

doesnt mean we have to dig in our heels though, language changes! its not a bad thing to adapt :-P

[applejackbunny]

I never found her name offensive.  Gypsy is a word for a free spirited, mysterious woman too. And its a popular horse name besides.

How about we let them decide, and follow their lead on it?

I'm also really tired of people using toys/media for a source of their social outrage and pet projects, because it takes energy and focus away from real life issues.

I know hyper focus on petty things goes back hundreds of years to music, dance, fashion and books, but this is still slapping band aids on bullet holes.

I choose to take a balanced view on this.

Couldn't agree more.

[Prince Firefly]

with regards to "g*psy* being used in official contexts, it's not unheard of or even uncommon for words that are considered slurs to have been used in everything from diagnoses to legal paperwork.

"mental r*tardation" was still a diagnosis that was in use up until the early aughts, when the DSM-5 changed it. the US census used to include terms for people of color that are recognized as slurs nowadays.

doesnt mean we have to dig in our heels though, language changes! its not a bad thing to adapt :-P

Exactly! It’s just that these official documents are using outdated and offensive terms, which happens and has always happened. Just wish they would change it.
It’s just very frustrating when people use that outdated language under the guise of “that’s what it was officially called.” But we’re not here to discuss that!

[applejackbunny]

Gypsy is Gypsy.

The word Gypsy is not generally a slur in the UK which is where the character originates and it is used as a race identifier within official contexts. That is not to say that the word is accepted by everyone and words are often misused and change with time but it's easy enough to look the topic up within a UK context. To quote a recent parliamentary report:

"We asked many members of the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities how they preferred to describe themselves. While some find the term “Gypsy” to be offensive, many stakeholders and witnesses were proud to associate themselves with this term and so we have decided that it is right and proper to use it, where appropriate, throughout the report."
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/360/full-report.html

Also from the government website:


"The term ‘Gypsies and Travellers’ is difficult to define as it does not constitute a single, homogenous group, but encompasses a range of groups with different histories, cultures and beliefs including: Romany Gypsies, Welsh Gypsies, Scottish Gypsy Travellers and Irish Travellers. There are also Traveller groups which are generally regarded as ‘cultural’ rather than ‘ethnic’ Travellers. These include ‘New’ (Age) Travellers and occupational travellers, such as showmen and waterway travellers."

Obviously if there is a mass movement against the term in a UK  context then I will rethink but at the moment there doesn't appear to be.

In my area both Gypsy and Traveller are used to refer to the two different communities that live in this area. The Travellers own caravans both static and non-static and the Gypsies live on the river in boats.

Aria has provided us with a link to an official report which asks this direct question to the people concerned. And most here have just ignored it.

In the UK Gypsies themselves have said that they DO NOT FIND IT OFFENSIVE. If and when, as others have said, travellers in the UK decide that they find the word to be a racial slur, then I will change my mind and stop using it. I might even adopt the name Tambourine for Gypsy instead. But, until then, can we please lay this issue to rest?

[aria_elwen]

Thank you applejackbunny.

I also fully understand that governmental sources often use outdated terms, nor am I part of the Gypsy, Traveller or Romani communities, that's why I specifically linked to a report that asked the various communities how they like to be referred to.

I purposefully set out to learn whether my own prejudices were at play and were different to the community. It turns out that in this instance my first instinct was correct. This is not to say that the Roma community doesn't have a problem with the word in the US nor does it mean that it cannot be used (as many words can) as a slur but as we often say: "England and America are two countries separated by the same language.” 

[Luxrayx]

Are you sure the UK doesn't consider it a slur? When I look up G*psy in a UK context, I find this article.

The comedian Ben Miller has told FHM magazine that he has been battling with the BBC over the use of the word "Gypsy" in a comedy sketch for his show with Alexander Armstrong, The Armstrong and Miller Show (which will be broadcast next month):

"We're having a debate at the moment with the BBC over whether we can say Gypsies, because they say Gypsies is a racist term, and you think "Yes it is but that's the point that we're making, that we were more racist in the 70s than we are now".

Ben Miller thought it's an obviously racist term to the point where you can use it in an exaggerated comedy sketch, while the BBC thought it's too offensive. No, they aren't Travellers themselves, but that's not my point. If G*psy isn't considered a racist term within UK culture at all, why would they need to have this discussion?

Not that we can lay an issue to rest just because it isn't offensive in the UK anyway, because the world is much bigger than that. And especially when talking about ponies on the internet, it's worth keeping other cultures in mind

[Kanthaka]

I think that it would be great to refer to her as Tambourine!

As someone who grew up in a conservative part of America, I've only realized that the word G*psy (and the related verb that I heard all the time at home) is seen by some as a slur relatively recently, and I've had to do some real work to remove it from my personal vocabulary. The most helpful article I've found related to this is this one by a Romani author.

To quote another article (I won't link to this one since it uses some Arena-inappropriate language), "I keep [the word] out of my vocabulary because Naomi, a marginalized person who has had the word used against her, says that the word is dangerous." If members of a marginalized group find a term historically used to describe them offensive or derogatory -- even if it's a fraction of the group, or a certain subset of it -- it's best to avoid using that term.

We don't lose anything at all by referring to this particular pony as Tambourine, so I'm all for it. 

[Loa]

Locking this now, as we have had a previous long discussion on this and because we have no Romani members, its only going to descend into further discussions.