Ok... I have to ask....

[Ember1]

We have an answer from the seller. She says it wasnt a large convention.
Just a small collectors meet when she was in vacation in england with her mom. She says she found that the meet was happening while they were there.

[MandarinCupcake]

Oh wow, Sundance is stunning in CP! I just love that pose. And congrats, Ember1 for winning her! I can't wait to see your pictures of her and learn more about her.

[Reaperfox]

Linnie (UKMilkyway) had a mini convention before UKPonycon, WAY before. I can't remember who went apart from myself, Linnie and BabyHarmony, all people who aren't really in the community anymore. It was at a city farm somewhere, had tables and stalls and games and even an auction. Can't for the life of me tell you a year or who attended though, and I can't remember seeing that pony there either or else I'd have tried and grabbed her! Very curious.

[Taffeta]

LadyG poked me about this, I was at Linnie's Sheffield meet too and if that had been there it would have been discussed. I don't remember any other get togethers at the time cos there were not so many Uk people. Linnie's meet was also later than 1997. 1997 was the first year I was online and the only other Uk people I remember being around then were Sel and Lily. Sel and I met up a few times but there were no meets in the Uk that long ago so maybe it was a more recent meet and she's mistaken about timescale.

Sundance in the Uk was always in the shy pose and I am fairly confident that if this is a prototype it isnt native to the UK because the photo ads for each of the 2 releases also show shy pose prototypes. I think scans of the comic ads are still on my site.

Edit -here
http://www.etherella.com/mlpmedia/advert_ms2.html
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook/advert_ms1.html

Be aware that Uk promotional drawings did not always render pose so faithfully as the US ones so I don't read much into that...also the Uk first had Megan and Sundance after the USA and so a prototype here would be unnecessary. Finally, the year that came out was also a year when HK generally didnt appear on hooves or had been removed from the mould....my UK Sundance is in front of me and she is NC.

So if she did get to the Uk and is a prototype, IMO she must have travelled.

I have never heard of her before, though, so can't add any more than that...

[Ember1]

Wow. Thanks for all the info taffeta! We greatly appreciate your historical knowledge.

I would like to point out several uk protoypes have been found that dont match up to their proto pamphlets. The mgr in my siggy for example is a uk prototype as well as a painting time pony that i have in my collection. Both dont have pamphlet proof of their existance but are documented to be uk prototypes.

I just make that point because we dont know for sure what she is or where shes from but right now the only bit of info we have is that her former owner points to the uk. We might never know her real story.

[Loa]

TAFFETA!!!!

[Taffeta]

Wow. Thanks for all the info taffeta! We greatly appreciate your historical knowledge.

I would like to point out several uk protoypes have been found that dont match up to their proto pamphlets. The mgr in my siggy for example is a uk prototype as well as a painting time pony that i have in my collection. Both dont have pamphlet proof of their existance but are documented to be uk prototypes.

There is and has always been a trend to assign variant pose ponies of unknown provenance to the UK, largely because ponies got shipped here and sold in odd ways at the end of the line. Something being found in the UK does not make it native, either, based on the amount of international trade between us and Europe. The blue heart Dazzleglow is a good example of ponies being labelled UK without them actually being sold here.

There are odd ponies like my baby susie and LadyG's baby billie for whom there are still more questions than answers; my only remark in this debate is that Hasbro were unlikely to commission a prototype for a UK release in 1986/7 when the pony already existed and when they wound up releasing one the same as the US. It isn't financially viable. If we are talking about a projected variation for the UK second release, timescale and the production politics of the time make it unlikely, since HK diasappears from feet around this time. It tends to be something continued by US pony releases and so if she is a prototype, I would suggest the logical point of origin to be the USA. There are still prototypes like the Princess Brush and Grow ponies in Fizzy's pose that have yet to emerge from the US despite being publicised in commercials and despite the huge number of US collectors.

I would be just as sceptical of Sunny Bunch being a UK prototype even if she was bought from a seller here. Market stalls in the middle 1990s sold US release ponies likr TAF babies in barely marked packages and we have seen a plethora of odd Princesses here but all in US box. The UK is a production dumping ground, but that is quite different from it being a UK prototype unless there exists some uniquely UK proven photographic evidence to say otherwise.

Hi Loa I'm still alive

[Ember1]

Thank you tafetta for sharing a closer in depth look at production in the UK
Can you tell us your thoughts on these prototypes? These were also found in the uk. Do you think these are also US made?


http://www.aikarin.com/mlp/scrapbook/ukprototypes.html

[LadyGuinevere]

Dang, that page is blocked at work! Will have to take a look from home as I'm curious now.

HK White Tootsie is another pony that was long considered to be from the UK, though she was never sold here (she was sold BY Hasbro UK in other countries, but never actually in the UK). Reverse Gusty I think was also often attributed to the UK when just as many had been found in the US (still not sure of her origins though).

I do think we use the phrase prototype more than we perhaps should. The painted ponies (like your Painting Time - who I recall was found with a few others at a carboot sale in High Wycombe, or like the Seaside babies a friend of mine has) I do consider prototypes, as they seem to be trying out designs on an existing pony (hence the paint). Ponies like your Sunsparkler, Taff's Baby Susie and my Baby Billie are a little different as they appear to have come out of a production line, so they could be something like a factory sample or an error as well. This does not make them any less rare, but we don't know at what stage in any process they came from, so it's more an unknown than just labelling them as a prototype.

Taff is right about the UK having been a bit of a dumping ground for leftover stock! Both when it comes to mail orders and general odds and ends. And we all know that ponies travel, even back in the day

[Lady Starflower]

Dang, that page is blocked at work! Will have to take a look from home as I'm curious now.

HK White Tootsie is another pony that was long considered to be from the UK, though she was never sold here (she was sold BY Hasbro UK in other countries, but never actually in the UK). Reverse Gusty I think was also often attributed to the UK when just as many had been found in the US (still not sure of her origins though).

I do think we use the phrase prototype more than we perhaps should. The painted ponies (like your Painting Time - who I recall was found with a few others at a carboot sale in High Wycombe, or like the Seaside babies a friend of mine has) I do consider prototypes, as they seem to be trying out designs on an existing pony (hence the paint). Ponies like your Sunsparkler, Taff's Baby Susie and my Baby Billie are a little different as they appear to have come out of a production line, so they could be something like a factory sample or an error as well. This does not make them any less rare, but we don't know at what stage in any process they came from, so it's more an unknown than just labelling them as a prototype.

Taff is right about the UK having been a bit of a dumping ground for leftover stock! Both when it comes to mail orders and general odds and ends. And we all know that ponies travel, even back in the day

Oooo do we have pics of these seaside babies that are prototypes?

[Ivaness]

Taff is right about the UK having been a bit of a dumping ground for leftover stock! Both when it comes to mail orders and general odds and ends. And we all know that ponies travel, even back in the day

Why couldn't they have made my place the dumping ground for leftover stock? Gosh.

I'm commenting because I want to keep tabs on what's going on! I'm so interested!

[Bibinettepony]

  Oh wow I just had time to read the entire topic about this nice CP Sundance! What a story!!

and MAJOR CONGRATS EMBER!!! You did Good!!! 

Yes only 30 ponies is maybe a small herd but WOW !! I would pay a lot to see in real your herd!!! 

I am sooo curious and excited that you receive her and you can show us more!!! and also I hope we can find more information about her!!

This is sooo great to discover so lovely and rare ponies!! 

[Taffeta]

One of the fun things about being a pony collector is not knowing all the answers, but trying to figure them out all the same. I admit that it's something I miss from the early years, when so many things were being uncovered - but I also love how the commuity is now so full of input from all over the place, because it helps fill gaps we weren't previously able to explain (like white tootsie and so on).

Whether it is or isn't a prototype - or, as LadyG says, correctly, we really mean a production run example model - doesn't really bother me right now. Till you have the pony, that can't really be verified.

I commented on this subject mainly because you drew up an old pamphlet as evidence for why this could or should be a UK pony. I have my pamphlet in front of me, and just from glancing at it, the frame right above Megan and Sundance shows Confetti in what looks like Cherries Jubilee's pose. Yes, she was sold in a different pose here, but we all know that wasn't in that pose. I don't have that one scanned, but here are other examples from the same insert which illustrate my point:
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/nssinsert.JPG
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/mountainboyinsert.JPG
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/inserttwins1.JPG

This insert is obviously not reliable for judging poses. It's personal judgement, but I am more inclined to believe the promotional photographs of the set produced in 1986 and 1987.The UK comic was MLP's advertising lifeblood in the 1980s, and comic photos were generally produced before the pony came into circulation. There are a few which show US pose ponies because the UK release one isn't ready for sale or photo yet. This implies to me that Hasbro UK did not produce their own publicity models unless it was a completely unique set - probably because of budget - and we know that Megan and Sundance were only sold in shy pose in the UK.

The pamphlet you used as evidence dates from 1987, which is the second problem. We're talking about the second release of Megan and Sundance in the UK.

Megan and Sundance had been globally issued for two years by then (1 year in the US, then 1 year as a SS in the US and normal here). As we've discussed, the second UK release of Megan and Sundance was also in the shy pose. In order for this pony to be commissioned by the UK, you're saying that after 2 years of selling a pony in that pose, and all the publicity material relating to it, Hasbro UK spent money to randomly have a CP version made, only to decide not to use it and wind up reverting back to the original after all.

1987 was a year when the Collector Pose was being phased out of the line in favour of new poses.   When Hasbro UK returned to the Collector Pose in 1989, for Lemon Drop's re-release, she was "Made In China." Between 1986 and 1989, Hasbro UK lost connection with the HK Collector Pose. I know this, because as a child my parents had to obtain a Lemon Drop from Hasbro for me for my second hand stable. Hasbro told them they couldn't provide me with an original HK Lemon Drop because she was "no longer available" and I would have to have the "new" one instead. The "new" one was made in China.

As far as I am aware, all Sundances sold legitimately in the UK had no country of manufacture on their hooves. Whilst HK didn't go back to China until 1997, there were various issues at the time which meant that manufacture was transferred. Part of this centred around the combining of Hasbro and Milton Bradley, I think - either way, manufacturing premises underwent change around this time and Sundance was one of the ponies which suffered from that change. Of course, you could argue that that shift inspired them to commission a trial version and I can't honestly disprove that as a theory - I just think that, with a company practically going bust and a move of premises (Hasbro UK relocated around that time), they had other things on their mind.

So, still taking the theory that this IS a prototype, a more likely scenario for what happened is, to my mind, is this. If this was a production model for Sundance predating the pony's release overall, then you have the possibility that this was a trial when they were figuring out the pony they wanted to make. It would fit nicely into the chronology of when that pose was more popularly being produced, and it is even possible there were more, and someone was asked to choose which one they liked best. That would link it to Rhode Island and Hasbro in the US, but it is not impossible for things to get from there to here, as I already mentioned.

Granted, there are still things we don't know about MLP release, like I said at the start. I've had Baby Susie for about 12 years now, but I still have no clue why she's in a different pose, or what she was used for. All I know is that she, like your Sunny Bunch, doesn't match the pamphlet and has no proper provenance. I am just a bit more cynical about ascribing something to a particular location because an Ebay seller said so. I think there's more to be done to find out what ponies like this really mean and whether they are or are not from the country they were found in. The UK's pony history is murky, mixed up and often confused, and that leads to assumptions.

And, just to horrify you even more, I don't believe in Reverse Gusty, either Sorry about that

[pinkkittywinks]

Thank you so much for posting Taffeta

Last night I went through all my UK merch and German comics! Both of those drawn images of Megan and Sundance are pretty generic and feature on a calendar, poster and leaflet I own.

I've never held much stock in Hasbro's drawings, even as I child I realised they often didn't bare much resemblance to the actual pony (sometimes to my frustration!)

I have to agree that the term prototype and even variant in some cases, is over used. If you look in the nirvana gallery only one pony is shown in the prototype folder. For the most part ponies are either unfinished, unconfirmed or simply odd.

Love pkw xxx

[Ember1]

Again thanks for that wonderful knowledge Taffeta..
Thats very true. You never know how Hasbro worked back then. . Who knows.. But you do bring a lot of UK knowledge to the table.
It would be so much easier if we had more hasbro employees coming forward telling us how things actually worked. Truth is most
prototypes that we see in catalogues were probably destroyed.. From the pony meets we have had in the US, hasbro workers have stated that pretty much the only prototypes or late stage products that survived were the ones the employees brought home with them (after hours) aka.. smuggled out of hasbro. You know when you are working on a piece that you get attached to but your bosses just don't see your genius? Do you A) turn your work in and have them melt it down? or B) take it home with you and conveniently forget to drop it in the melting pot?

One question.. do you not believe in rev gusty as a prototype or that she was from the UK?