*Warning* for sellers shipping out of the Country

[angelponies]

So... I thought all my sales were done or close to it. Here is a warning for sellers shipping out of the Country. It doesn't matter to paypal if you have PROOF of shipping and even a nice slip with a postal stamp on it to back it up as well. If you use ANY shipping method at all. And the buyer claims to not have gotten the item, paypal will refund them the money. I know that shipping from the U.S. that the Post workers don't always like to scan where the item is and if it arrived. If it does not show that it has not arrived even if you have 100% solid proof that you shipped it! They will refund the buyer no matter the amount!!! I just got totally hosed by a $200+ pony that the buyer said she never recieved. I said that the fair thing to do would be to split the amount since I sent her proof it was shipped. She filed a paypal claim and I called paypal and found out it doesn't matter what service is used and it doesn't matter if you have proof you sent it, that if it doesn't show that the item was recieved by the buyer that they will refund the buyer! I was like  soooo I told the paypal rep thanks for the info and will no longer ship to anyone out of the country that I have not dealt with before. I wanted to warn other buyers ASAP  that the paypal rep just told me, that it does not matter "what" tracking you have. If the Post forgets to scan it on their end, they will refund

That is so not fair, but alas I guess you have to get a plane and fly the pony to it's destination, anyhow I am so upset at the moment, I have to just laugh about it in order not to cry 

[Icicle]

Ugh, that is awful. But I guess since Paypal/eBay are the same entity and eBay coddles buyers this isn't surprising. I personally don't like to send out internationally because of other issues I've had, but this might put the nail in the coffin for any international selling I do...

[Whoa1234]

Welp, that about kills all chances of me shipping out of the us in the near future. :/
Terribly sorry that happened to you.

[Doedeardarling]

That's a bit unfair. You can always ask people to mark the payment as a "gift" so they can't ask for refund. Or just don't use paypal, since the problem really is with them and not with international shipping. If people wouldn't ship stuff internationally none of you would have any nirvanas, because none of them are from the US.

[angelponies]

Thanks everyone I wanted to give a heads up, I think my jaw about hit the floor when I heard that 

Yeah that is a good idea, I think if I do ship anything out of the U.S. it will have to be payment sent as a gift, because this was just too much money to loose like that or I just wont ship anything at all, unless I dealt with them before 

[tulagirl]

Yes this is very true and its why I do not ever do out of the country sales and shipments.  I will consider very low cost trades, but that is it.

[Izrabeth]

Are you sure of this?  I mean holy cow but if my buyer is dishonest and receive the parcel  but claim they did not (assuming I shipped with no tracking or registered)??? This is ridicolous, this is how to open an highway to scams!
At this point nobody should ship internationally anymore, I meant as someone outside US can do it, somebody outside my own country can do it right? 
And what about customs??? Some buyers don't understand that parcels stop in the customs and some are fast while some like the ones in italy are really slow, can take also more than a month to get packages! On ebay you have 45 days to file a claim, so if I don't receive a package in 44 days I file a claim, I get refunded and maybe 10 days later get also my package?????? And the seller must loose the money like that?!
The gift thing, you cannot force someone to mark it as gift and in any case if you sold on ebay forget to ask to mark as gift, you simply can't, would be reported for sure...
I am truly shocked...

[Bibinettepony]

Hi Angel,

I am so sad for you that's really not cool. 

[NoDivision]

Yes, unfortunately it's been like this for a while. That's why I don't do international shipping with anything less than priority mail if it's a sold item. There is still the risk it won't get scanned, but it is a much much much smaller risk.

[banditpony]

Even with registered mail where they have to sign to get it? ... Priority? EMS?
They are right, there is not much you can do with proof of shipping...  And the same goes for domestic, it's really about delivery confirmation. Part of a seller's responsibility is getting the item to the buyer, not just shipping the item. ( ... 9__9* )

OH! I wanted to add, it's not necessarily international shipping, but rather... the other country's post service. That's what my post office workers told me-- because that part is not controllable. Some are better than others... somewhere there is a list.... heh.

[Yurusumaji]

This is precisely what happened to myself and my husband that turned me off eBay forever.

Our dog was dying of a mystery illness and we needed to make some extra money to cover his emergency vet bills. We shipped more than $200 worth of product to someone in Italy, but we didn't have tracking on it and so he made a claim in Paypal and was refunded the full amount.

It's agitating on both ends because honest international buyers get locked out of auctions due of this and of course it's annoying for the seller because they lost a ton of money and their buyer base is much smaller now that they can't offer their product to overseas buyers. It's a real shame it has to be that way.

[tinrobo]

Was your parcel insured? If the buyer is claiming they never received it and there's no proof that they did, surely you can make a claim with the postal service to get your money back?

(Sorry if you're already doing that, I just didn't see it mentioned and I'd hate for you to be $200 out of pocket!)

[girlyponce]

That's terrible 

I ship stuff worldwide on eBay and haven't had an issue yet *knocks on all wood nearby* but this makes me so wary. 

[angelponies]

The package wasn't insured and she didn't ask for it, but I shoulda have insured it, but that too according to the paypal Rep I talked to, even if something is insured if the buyer does not receive the item, even if they do receive it, and on the tracking site it shows they didn't, which it is like that a lot because things don't always get scanned like they should. The buyer can open a dispute and they will win, regardless of insurance or tracking, if it was not scanned "As Received" by the buyer and they open a dispute whether they truly got it or not, paypal will decide in favor of the buyer, atleast that is what the paypal rep just told me today. I am pretty upset, that can be exploited big time by dishonest people. I said to the paypal rep that is completely unfair and she agreed with me that it is unfair and that splitting the costs would be fair, but she said that, that is the way it is and those are the rules. SO... I think that when they decide the case in her favor, I will close my paypal account after a couple pony peeps are done making payments on a couple ponies, and I will tell paypal why I am closing it when I go to close it. The way these rules are set up are ridiculous, I submitted to them both the receipt and the custom slip that was stamped by the Post Office  apparently it is only the Delivery confirmation that matters, and that is not a secure and safe way to do it at all. 

[banditpony]

Yeah, that sounds right Angelponies. If it not marked "as received" then.. well, the buyer can claim they haven't received. As I mentioned, everything hangs on the other country's post service. It is the SAME thing for domestic as well.. but our post is better at scanning when items have arrived.
That's why I mentioned registered mail, I'm pretty sure that most foreign places have to sign for it-- and it is typically documented. There are resources online that list good countries and bad countries.

I have thought about it long and hard, and I don't think it's an unfair system. As I said, it's the sellers responsibility to have the package get to the buyer safely. Too many people in this world are unreliable-- and we can't pick and choose our buyers, so as sellers, we need to try to cover all bases and pay extra for better services. And in the end, there will be packages that will end up being a loss (either lost in mail, or shady buyer...). In the end, I don't sell international--- as it's not worth the risk to me.

I believe that there needs to be a different time limit for international mail as it can be slower. I don't think someone should be able to dispute and win under 45 days. I think 90 days is a better time frame (we all know how it can get lagged up), and I don't think any international case for not received yet should even be able to OPEN before 45 days. Meh. I see too many people get all excited when they haven't received their packages in 2 weeks time.