Ok... I have to ask....

[Ember1]

Taffetta,

You yourself have told us that you will not judge her because you have not held her in your hands..

All we are saying is that the seasoned collectors who have held her in their hands and have experience dealing with nirvanas and prototypes are making a judgement on her. We believe she is real.

Every person on this forum has a right to their opinions on any pony. We are just voicing ours because we have held and examined this pony in person. I respect that you have your opinions as well. As the owner of this pony I feel that all I can do is show her and the evidence I have to others who want to see her.. Whether or not the community chooses to accept her is not up to me.. All I know is how I and others who have held her feel about her. And for me.. that is enough.

[kasin]

I'm confused! Is this about the UK line or a prototype?

Providence is a fine art term used to prove a work is really made by the signed artist. It involves records of sale etc. I've dealt with it involving a art piece looted during WW2 and its honestly not even close to relatable. Hasbro is a toy company concerned with trends and making money. They didn't keep careful records and when the G1 line was discontinued they simply tossed the left overs as trash or sold them to fakie producers. There is no gain for them in our collecting second hand ponies, (they didn't know they would be collectables either) so they have no reason to care. Left over mail orders were sold MIP in outlets straight out of big cardboard boxes for a couple $ each just to get rid of them. A prototype was a byproduct of the design process. Once the toy went into production the proto was at best a keepsake for the creator and trash as far as Hasbro was concerned. We know some went home for employees kids to play with. There is only one prototype with true providence. Its the one Hasbro still has at its HQ in RI and I don't think there are any photos on the net for it. The original creator of MLP did describe her collector pose prototypes as injection molded with hand painted symbols and a hand made tail insert. This matched the proto's JLM had from the original 6 which she claimed to have bought in RI(I recall 3?? I may be wrong, its been years). Asking providence on a MLP proto is unrealistic and if we held all nirvanas up to that standard there are whole countries productions that we cant prove to that standard. As mentioned earlier, only one proto can prove providence.

I love history! it would be neat to hear the whole story on this Sundance and how she was made and used. however I appreciate her even without getting her back story and I certainly don't hinge her authenticity on it. I got a SA from the Netherlands, I don't think it had anything to do with the Dutch line even if Ill bet it has a fun life story Ill never know. Sundance was found in the UK, other protos were found in the UK, so there is a good chance they were all part of the UK production in some way. But the UK has a lot of immigrants too, so maybe they are all from someplace else. We will never know and I don't know why we are arguing about it?

I know exactly who you are Taffeta, I was around when the Euro production was first getting sorted out and the term nirvana was coined by JLM. If I had questions or concerns about the UK line you'd be the expert and Id respect your opinion as such.  Ember has the best collection of proto's I know of, in or out of the online community. I would call her an expert in prototypes and defer to her opinion if I ever doubted a prototype. A collector that has seen the RI prototype has seen this Sundance and agreed its real. I actually took the other approach and tried to figure out how to make it if its fake and you would need a CP injection mold and a means to produce a factory weave and eye paint. injection molds cost tens of thousands of USD to make. its simply unrealistic. Sundance also matches up to proto painting time perfectly. how can we accept the one and not the other? Why is this being hinged on the UK line in any way either? the plaster starlight baby was found at a car boot sale in the UK but was not tied to the UK line exclusively like this?

If providence is needed then hold all nirvanas to the same standard. If an expert opinion is needed then why isn't Embers good enough and who's is?

~ Diana

[LadyGuinevere]

Okay everyone, take a deep breath! We seem to be going off on a bit of a tangent here.

I don't think Taff is arguing about the authenticity of Sundance (in fact, I read it as working on the assumption that she isreal), just being wary of associating her with the UK line on limited and potentially contradictory evidence. This does not mean that she is not legit, just that she may not have come from the UK office as was suggested by the original seller.

kasin, I think you're right in that there's a good chance we will never find out anything from Hasbro. Everything I've come across suggests that they have little to no knowledge of specifics from back then and unless we find someone who worked on these items at the time, they won't know. It is ~30 years ago afterall and the majority of staff will have moved on (or retired!).

I don't recall jlm's prototypes off the top of my head - which ones were they?

[LadyMoondancer]

IMO Sundance being found in the UK does link her to the UK, at least circumstantially.  She could have traveled their via Germany, but she could also be from the UK.  It can't be proven, but it can't be disproven.  Just because Hasbro UK ended up going with the shy pose doesn't mean they didn't think about diverging from the US line by using the CP before deciding "nah".

(Kasin, I think you mean provenance. )

[kasin]

(Kasin, I think you mean provenance. )

Yes! My phone auto corrects me and its not as smart as a smart phone should be! Thank you for the correction!

kasin, I think you're right in that there's a good chance we will never find out anything from Hasbro. Everything I've come across suggests that they have little to no knowledge of specifics from back then and unless we find someone who worked on these items at the time, they won't know. It is ~30 years ago afterall and the majority of staff will have moved on (or retired!).

I don't recall jlm's prototypes off the top of my head - which ones were they?

Honestly, I'm concerned that Hasbro might even have incorrect information if they respond. I wouldn't trust it either way, I think we are on our own here.

JLM had several collector pose ponies from the original 6 that match the description of a prototype, though I don't think we called them such at that time. My memory is fuzzy here, but I think she had 3 and I'm not sure they all had a tail, I vaguely recall one that didn't have the tail hole but I may be mistaken. I do remember clearly that one was CC and that they were blow mold with hand painted symbols. I'm pretty sure that she bought them from a non collector in RI, though I cant say I'm 100% sure on that detail. I've got a data call out to see if anyone saved the photos of them because I did not. They were in the original nirvana gallery JLM started in the early 2000's if the Arena has a archive of that.

Off boards several folks are saying they remember rumors of a CP Sundance in the late 90's and early 00's. No one has anything to back it up however and it was linked loosely to Germany which adds to the confusion. If those rumors are true, this was with a off board collector and may have passed hands a few times. I'm not here to spread rumors! I guess my point is that I think I'm agreeing with several comments that we should not try to associate this pony with a country of origin and that I don't put much stock in her back story.

~ Diana

[Ember1]

Just another note. Several oldbie collectors i have talked to remember seeing a cp sundance in the want list on the old dream valley site 10 to 15 years ago.
Does anyone recall this?

I remember the prototypes jlm had too. Has anyone heard from jlm or is there anyone who saved pictures of these beauties?

Added info.
Jlm proto cc
She references one of her prototypes in this thread.
http://mlparena.com/archive/Forums/viewtopic/t=3916.html

Another odd cc that was found and compared to jlms cc
http://www.mlparena.com/archive/Forums//viewtopic/printertopic=1/t=12854/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=0/finish_rel=-10000.html

They seem to reference a plastic holder in the tail too.
Its a shame no pictures have surfaced.

[LadyMoondancer]

I don't remember CP Sundance on Dream Valley's want list.  If there was one, then it wasn't there for long, as I used to browse there pretty often to see if Prettybow was still on the list.  (Which she always was.  Eventually she turned out to be a variant of Flutterbye.)

[buttonso]

This is a pretty fascinating thread.. I have nothing to add but I'm learning a lot from you guys! And Ember I think your Sundance is lovely

[daffodil101]

Cool to see this epic thread continued! 

I'm so happy Ember that you were able to meet with some other collectors and have their opinions as they held her in real life.  (And Kasin, I love your comment about her hair being an unusual type similar to mint Mexi hair! so interesting.)  I'm definitely a believer, as a lot of us are, and hearing testimonies of other collectors solidifies that even more to my mind. 

Where she originated may always be a mystery, but her status as a real proto I think is confirmed.  The only thing that would make her more authentic would be if the Hasbro artist descended out of the sky on a cloud with an affidavit.