The 'average proportions' doll

[brightberry]

No she's "average"       I don't think she's fat at all.  But skinny is different than what's popularly considered healthy and normal.

I was very skinny as a teen, so was my sister.  Barbie had more flesh on her than we did (old barbie).  She was at least curvy.  We were always told we were too skinny and "not normal" even though we ate like horses.  We got teased for that.  Teased because we could pass as skinny boys.  Because we looked like sticks.  Because we must have anorexia, and unhealthy body image and all kinds of assumptions.  We started looking more "normal" in our 20s.  But I remember how upsetting it was for my sister.  I was never bothered as much.

But what I am saying is I don't think this group would go for a doll that looked like us when we were 19.  And it was already pointed out that they don't intend to make any dolls that are overweight.  I am happy and excited for the alternative but... less and less so that they are calling it "normal".   They really need to change that.  Honestly, why not just put the doll out there without any messages at all?  Lots of different sizes is fine but at this point, they seem to be saying "overweight" is bad, "too skinny" is bad.  It's just weird that's suppose to help body image.

https://stayathometrauma.wordpress.com/tag/skinny-girls/
^ this isn't my blog, but I thought it was good for perspective? 

[InkyMilk]

I'm not insensitive to the feelings of those who are naturally extremely thin. But again, I truly believe that this new doll has proportions that are much more realistic than Barbie. Take this new doll, shave her down and she will be much thinner, but her proportions will still never be as drastically ridiculous as Barbie's because Barbie was never meant to resemble a grand majority of real bodies, even the extremely thin.

Perhaps her being referred to as "normal"  is a faux pas, and I could see reason for calling her something different, but claiming that Barbie is MORE realistic for the very thin just seems extremely silly to me. Barbie has a very nipped in waist, true, some girls and women may find that more like themselves than this new doll, but again, going by the actual measurements of Barbie and comparing her to a real person....not realistic. At all. The claims are true that Barbie wouldn't even be able to hold herself up, much less walk, given the way she is built.

[brightberry]

Perhaps her being referred to as "normal"  is a faux pas, and I could see reason for calling her something different, but claiming that Barbie is MORE realistic for the very thin just seems extremely silly to me. Barbie has a very nipped in waist, true, some girls and women may find that more like themselves than this new doll, but again, going by the actual measurements of Barbie and comparing her to a real person....not realistic. At all. The claims are true that Barbie wouldn't even be able to hold herself up, much less walk, given the way she is built.

Oh, I was not claiming barbie is more realistic.  Just that the doll herself is being called "normal" which implies that not looking like that isn't normal.  They need better wording or something.

I can still see why some barbie fans are annoyed.  I don't think they claim that barbie is realistic either.  But not everyone had a negative body experience from barbie.  Some parents made sure to point out Barbie's unrealistic proportions, called their daughters beautiful, encouraged healthy eating and so on.  So to them, there seems to be some sort of implication that by liking barbie, they have body issues or cause them in other people.  And that's just the way the article is unfortunately worded.  It's kind of being run like a negative campaign against barbie.  And it just seems to be the wrong way to go about it because it's the fashion doll fans they're trying to win over and most of them probably like barbie.

To be fair to the doll creator, it might be that the news media is creating the controversy for more ad views.   

[Vertefae]

Wow. God forbid someone have a different opinion.

And I'm quite certain that people who are calling others fat or to skinny or what have you do far more damage than a TOY.

[Dragonflitter]

And I'm quite certain that people who are calling others fat or to skinny or what have you do far more damage than a TOY.

I don't think the creator is labouring under the assumption that kids define themselves 100% (or even mostly) in comparison to toys, but when the toys are in line with other cultural assumptions and norms (beauty ads, celebrities, family pressures, and so on) they're still a part of the bigger cultural picture.

Material things are rarely the most important thing, but that doesn't make them unimportant, y'know?

(I can't say it any better, so I'm just going to quote Hervoyel again.)


On the other hand, I do agree that it would be detrimental to this person's cause if anyone felt bad because they didn't match the look of this 'normal-looking' doll. So I'm going to adjust the title of this thread accordingly.

[andibgoode]

Does anyone have a source for the creator himself using the word 'normal' - his site just says 'realistic' and 'average' but the Buzzfeed article linked quoted him as saying 'Normal Barbie', which, like everyone else bugs me because, well, what's 'normal', right?

I don't think this is perfect but I'm just excited to see something a bit different. No idea how children will respond.

I definitely agree with everyone who has said that dolls/toys are part of the problem but it is a wider cultural problem that includes all media. We don't live in a vacuum and the things around us definitely affect how we see ourselves and the rest of the world. I mean, I don't think Barbie had a negative effect on me but I'm not everyone, and my experiences don't invalidate anyone else's. I am also in my late 20s, now. I have no idea what it's like to be a child or young teen these days

Cute as heck. You know what would be cool though?

Dolls with multiple body types. Fat ones, skinny ones, in between ones. YES.

Yes! I think he is planning to do that, and skin colours, too. So, hopefully Lammily (not keen on the name but never mind) is successful enough that he can produce a really diverse line of dolls.

I backed the project and ordered 2 dolls - maybe I'll turn one into me...

[brightberry]

Yea... I do think the media is trying to pit people against each other.  CNN title their video as "Anti-Barbie crowd-funded in 24 hours". 

The media says you're not allowed to like both. No way. 

[kCherry]

Dropping an early warning; keep it civil, lovies. -Cherry

[PinkRosedust]

Well, she's cute and it's a nice thought, but I still love my Barbies. And various other dolls with ridiculous proportions.

I remember playing with those Little Tikes family dolls when I was REALLY young, and it doesn't get much more plain or normal or average looking than them, but after a certain age I moved on to Barbies and other more cartoonish style dolls exclusively. At that point (maybe 5 years old?) I think I would have gone with the more over the top Barbies rather than a plain looking doll like this any day.

Honestly I'd love to see a chubby fashion doll.

[cobalte]

It's a step in the right direction, but I agree with others in this topic who have said the product itself focuses too much on 'realistic body proportions' as opposed to something that will really push a kid to think it's a fun toy (whether that be articulation or interesting fashions).

[Dragonflitter]

Yea... I do think the media is trying to pit people against each other.  CNN title their video as "Anti-Barbie crowd-funded in 24 hours". 

The media says you're not allowed to like both. No way. 

Interesting point! It wouldn't surprise me at all that the media would spin it a different way than the creator intended/presented. They'll say whatever they want to get people to read their articles and talk about it.

[Winter Bones]

I remember when I was a kid sometime in the late 90's/early 2000's, any time I walked down the pink aisle all I saw was Barbie, Barbie, Barbie, Polly Pocket, Barbie, as well as the occasional baby doll that peed or robotic animal. I'm not sure whether it was the fault of the market or where I lived (or the fact that I was only ever allowed near a toy section during Christmas or my birthday) but nowadays when I venture down there I see Barbie, Bratz, Monster High, EAH, Pinkie Cooper, Novi Starz, Polly Pocket, Lalaloopsy, La Dee Da, the list goes on.

Play dolls aren't really my thing, but I'm glad there's so much differentiation in the fashion doll market, and I like that this girl is being released for the simple fact that she's different as well. I do agree that most kids (child me included) don't have much of an interest in 'average' since they see that all the time, so I hope they at least release her with some cool clothes or play sets or give her some cool jobs. Zoo Doctor Lammily, Olympic Speed Skater Lammily, Ballerina Lammily, Motocross Lammily. Or maybe not. I'm not the best at marketing to little girls.

[CrystalJapan]

I like the Idea of Lammily, and i honestly would like her concept to be pushed forward, maybe in a more American girls format where there is a girl like you.
I'll keep my thoughts about how i really don't like Lammily itself to myself though.
However i do think the whole thing is going to be a flop if the Lammily brand doesn't step it up and get some distinguishing kind of gimmick sometime soon or it'll fall to the wayside with it's target demographic.

I know i can't say the same for everyone but i liked barbie because because she was a time traveling rock and roll star in outer space, hell i love novi stars because they are so out there with their looks and colours, and this was before i knew about the webisodes!

 i feel like lammily is going to be drowned out after the initial hype by other doll lines if she only has "i look like a average person" gimmick.

also, does anyone else think that Lammily is going to end up having a really small closet? interchanging clothes might be really tricky.

[Taxel]

As a collector, I don't like her. The Exclusive First Edition outfit is cute, but her other outfits are extremely boring. Her jointed ankles and seemingly rubber legs (and arms?) are really off-putting to me. There's also something about her face that I don't quite like.

But as a parent, I really like her. The rubber limbs are still off-putting, since I remember how much I struggled to dress rubber-legged dolls as a child. But I definitely agree that her boring clothes will be her biggest downfall. Unless they introduce interesting outfits I really don't think she'll succeed even though I'd love to see more diversity and realistic dolls on store shelves. A wide range of well-made clothes is also a must since she'll probably struggle to share clothes with other dolls (which of course is also an issue as a collector). Some Barbie-sized clothes might fit them, but who knows.

The young girls I know, one is 8ish and one is 4, like interesting clothes. Princess dresses, sparkly musician outfits, etc. One of my poor Moxie Girlz got bashed by the eight year old for her boring clothes when we played dolls together. If she was given Lammily, she'd think she's boring and has boring/ugly clothes. The four year old probably wouldn't really play with or like her because she doesn't have a princess dress.

[Marionette]

I certainly wouldn't want to see one body type being praised over another, but I'd just like to remind people... Barbie's body is unrealistic, fullstop. Today's Barbie is a bit more realistic (in that I can believe she might even be able to survive if you scaled her up and made her a real person), but this is a pretty recent thing... her proportions used to be inhuman. That is to say, impossible for any real human to have. Monster High, Bratz, and so forth are even less realistic. They are very stylized, accentuating large bust and hips and teeny, tiny waists, in line with our society's idealized body type yet taking it even further.

I don't want to see the Lammily effort degrade into body-shaming for any girl. It would make me very sad. The fact is, though, very, veeery few fashion dolls have a body type that is even viable in real life, much less a common body type. Calling her "normal" is not the right choice of words, and I hope (if that's the word they've been using) they ditch it, but "realistic"? Yes. And while dolls do not necessarily have to be realistic, just remember that we have unrealistic dolls in spades. Like I said, most fashion dolls are stylized to an impossible level. The problem is not that any given doll's figure is unrealistic but that almost all dolls are unrealistic. The problem is that there really is no realistic doll to turn to. That it's not even a choice for a parent or a little girl to have a doll like this. And that's why Lammily is important, especially with plans for a wider variety of body types in the future. More options are always better!

But, like others, I see flaws here. Because the Barbie/Monster High body type is the one people are accustomed to, it's going to be an uphill battle to begin with. Obviously a good number of parents are won over since the doll was successfully crowd-funded, but a playline toy isn't worth much if it can't keep a child's interest. Right now, she seems awfully plain. She feels like, well, like a generic Barbie with a different body type. That isn't what makes for a lasting doll line.

Though I don't think she must suddenly become Fairy Princess Lammily (our over-reliance on princesses as role models for little girls has its issues as well), there are definitely ways to make your doll appealing without going that route. There's not a single princess in Monster High, is there (I guess you could say Cleo )? What she needs is a wide variety of colorful, relevant, detailed fashions that catch the eye. In the end, a fashion doll is exactly that -- a vehicle for fashions. She needs outfits that lend themselves to vivid scenarios and encourage roleplay, too. Girls need to both be able to identify with Lammily and to use her to act out roles they admire.

I'll definitely keep my eye on Lammily though... hopefully the plainness is more of a prototype thing and we'll see higher quality, more eye-catching outfits and scenarios in the future.