The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: SparkleSkye on June 22, 2018, 04:52:49 PM
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I have a second-hand Powder who's hair is neither in terrible contion nor great condition. The white has faded to a translucent-y yellowish color, and is quite thin and dry feeling.
I like my collection to look nice, and I think she would look much better with new white hair. But I know a lot of collectors hate rehairs and prefer everything to be original.
I'm not really planning on selling Powder any time soon, but I also dont want to contribute to the 'destruction' of all-original G1s. If I'm only keeping her for my own collection, is it okay to rehair her?
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Absolutely, she's your pony. I doubt anyone's going to come after you for rehairing Powder because she is a fairly common pony, and as you mentioned her hair isn't in the best condition.
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Your pony, do what makes you happy.
Personally I leave the necks unglued with any ponies I've tinkered around inside with, so it's not hard to pop their heads later on and check on what's been done. Some advocate for marking restores permanently but to me that's just causing them actual damage and isn't effective anyways.
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I just rehaired a G1 Twilight! Granted, she had a buzz cut, but brand new silky hair makes her look so nice. Remember to keep the original tail! Makes good donor part if someone needs it.
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She's your pony, for your own collection, whatever you do with her is your right. You paid for her and she belongs to you, no one else has rights, or even a say, to your ponies. :)
Especially because you are restoring her, and not customizing her, I don't see that in any way as part of the "destruction of G1s." Infact, that's more like helping SAVE them!
So many people are so quick to entirely customize a G1 that they think is "bait," when really it just needs a tad bit of TLC to be restored to it's original glory. And they totally have every right to do so, but I do have to say in my humble opinion I much, much prefer to see them restored than customized.
You did say you don't plan on selling her, which is even more reason to do as you please with her. Even if you do happen to ever sell her, just make a note that she was rerooted, plenty of collectors still love rerooted ponies.
I don't have any but that would never deter me from buying (unless it was a custom reroot in different colors), I'd rather have a pony with pretty, restored hair than really icky hair, or a really bad chop-job, lol!
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There will be many different views on this, it's what you are comfortable with doing.
Personally, I re-root or do alternative rehairs on ponies for my personal collection if their hair is in a bad way. I repair my ponies and touch-up symbols and eyes too if a pony has damage.Sometimes a new hair-do without reroot can give a pony a whole new look - I've conditioned and curled a couple with thinning, but still shiny, hair, it can look great on the right pony (one was a Twister who is in the same pose as Powder, she looks great with shortish, very curly hair) I have very few mint ponies (and can't afford them) so mine usually need some tlc, though often it's their flaws that give them character and a unique beauty of their own so I leave them be.
I am less comfortable with extensive customisation unless the pony is true bait.
My ponies are not for sale, just for my own personal enjoyment,. If they did need to be sold I feel that rehairing is not so permanent as full customisation - if someone had donor hair then an alt-rehair could be restored to the 'original' pony.
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Restoration is about improving a pony, not doing more damage to it. So the decision really lies in that judgement. You are the only one who knows if Powder's hair merits replacement or not.
I endorse marking the hoof of a rehair. I do so because in the unlikely event something happens to you and someone else sells your collection, it would be hard for that person to know it was a rehair. Having the head unsealed is ineffective, as a lot of people take heads off for cleaning these days. In short, restoration should never have a knock-on effect down the line, if circumstances dictated the pony being sold. So I advise you strongly to think about how you can best disclose this rehair if you were not in a position to mention it directly yourself.
Also, the rarity of a pony is irrelevant in this. The important things are whether the restoration really improves the pony, rather than damaging it, and whether that restoration is clearly and honestly acknowledged in some way (there may be other ways than marking the hoof).
Powder is also extremely rare in the UK, where she wasn't sold. I feel like people are telling you that it's fine because she's common. I've seen people get really criticised for wanting to customise or restore a pony sold in the UK and not the US. I just want to put that out there, as rarity is relative to what's available in each place. For me, I'd have taken Powder in pretty much any condition and loved her for it if I had ever found even one at a carboot sale when I was younger. I have never in 34 years of pony collecting (childhood and adulthood) seen a Powder in the wild here. Not that that has any bearing on your decision - but just to underscore the fact that restoration is not about how common a pony is or isn't, but about the condition of the pony itself.
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Do you have any pictures of her?
Like others have said, ultimately it's your decision and some repairs do look better than the original if the hair is really bad.
Only thing I have an issue with personally is marks on hooves - it seems like defacing a pony. I would hope that sellers would be honest if it’s a repair (plus you can usually tell) and if not i’d check how the hair was woven in and take it up with the seller if it was sold as original but turned out to be a rehair.
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Only thing I have an issue with personally is marks on hooves - it seems like defacing a pony.
Removing original hair is also defacing the pony for people who do not collect rehairs - and it's those people who would get hurt by buying an undisclosed rehair. Rehairing affects the value of the pony as well.
There may be another way to indicate it without marking the hooves, but just in case someone else has to do the collection selling, disclosing it in a clear and honest way is the responsible thing. It shouldn't get to a point where a buyer should have to suspect a rehair and check that stuff. That would mean the buyer getting scammed because of a breakdown in communication, and that's something we should always work to avoid.
Basically, the moment you decide to restore a pony, the responsibility of that restoration, and making sure it's known about, rests with you.
It isn't a reason not to restore. But it shouldn't be undertaken lightly.
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Only thing I have an issue with personally is marks on hooves - it seems like defacing a pony.
Removing original hair is also defacing the pony for people who do not collect rehairs - and it's those people who would get hurt by buying an undisclosed rehair. Rehairing affects the value of the pony as well.
There may be another way to indicate it without marking the hooves, but just in case someone else has to do the collection selling, disclosing it in a clear and honest way is the responsible thing. It shouldn't get to a point where a buyer should have to suspect a rehair and check that stuff. That would mean the buyer getting scammed because of a breakdown in communication, and that's something we should always work to avoid.
Of course, I totally get what you mean and I think that’s a responsible selling idea but I just meant that I personally wouldn’t buy a rehair that has something written on the underneath of the foot just the same as I personally wouldn’t buy an original pony with a child’s initials written under the hoof. To me it just seems like damaging it even more, so that could be something that would affect the resale value further if other collectors are as picky as I am.
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Yep. I think there's a lot of personal preference involved here.
I personally would never buy a rehair, and if I bought a pony and it turned out to be an undisclosed rehair I would be reporting the seller, because to me that's a scam. We've also seen cases over the years where someone has innocently had a (usually Nirvana, as it's harder to tell with some of them) in their collection and sold it, only for the buyer to say it's a rehair and demand a refund and a nasty situation involving a lot of money ensues.
If you are willing to change any part of a pony, you need to be willing to disclose that fact so it can't change hands multiple times and mislead someone. In general the people who object to hoof marking don't see a problem with rehairs - but for me, I would be really upset to receive a rehair without any disclosure or indication of what it was. It is a doublestandard to be happy to take the original hair out but not happy to write on the hoof. To me these are the same thing, honestly. In fact, (and again personal opinion, not general judgement), in my collection, a mark on the hoof is a much smaller flaw than anything relating to hair, and a rehair is essentially 50% custom, whereas a mark on the hoof is just a mark on the hoof. It doesn't take any part of the original pony away, it simply adds a minor part of mostly invisible damage (if the pony is standing up).
Maybe that makes me more picky. I dunno. But I stick by what I said. Not disclosing a rehair is asking for trouble along the line, as most people say they aren't selling it - but in fact it happens that they do a lot more than you'd think, and sometimes it's not them who are doing the selling.
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The majority of my collection has required some serious restoration and I absolutely intend to mark every pony on the inside of the neck seam, and if I sell any I would make very clear in the listing what has been restored on the pony.
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The majority of my collection has required some serious restoration and I absolutely intend to mark every pony on the inside of the neck seam, and if I sell any I would make very clear in the listing what has been restored on the pony.
That’s such a good idea. I think buyers would much prefer that - it’s marked as a restoration but isn’t damaging the outward appearance of a pony with pen that can be seen.
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Rehairs never bother me personally because they are easy to undo and most of the time improve the hair quality so I often keep them as is. I rehair ponies with lots of damage or buzzcuts and it makes a big difference in ebay auctions. This way I keep selling G2s in bad condition because I update the mane and tail.
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I adore rehairs. Alternate, restorations, everything. If it makes your pony pretty again and makes you happy do it!
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Are you a fan of long pony hair? If so you could rehair Powder and leave her mane, like, down to her hooves. That would make it very obvious she's a rehair without any need to mark her up.
Personally the idea of people writing on ponies to indicate it's a rehair does not sit well with me, or writing on a pony period. Man, I wouldn't even let my mom write my name on my ponies as a kid, I certainly don't want to encourage people to write on their ponies now!
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It is a doublestandard to be happy to take the original hair out but not happy to write on the hoof. To me these are the same thing, honestly.
They may be the same thing to you, but definitely not to me. I would not knowingly buy a pony with writing on its hooves, regardless of who did it. I am perfectly happy with (an appropriately priced and honestly listed) rehair, assuming it was done in such a way to look original - correct colour, style, length and fullness. That is my personal preference, so it's unfair to say it's a double-standard unless you're willing to apply the same to your own preferences.
If you don't accept or like a certain condition in your collectibles, you ask about it before you buy.
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It is a doublestandard to be happy to take the original hair out but not happy to write on the hoof. To me these are the same thing, honestly.
They may be the same thing to you, but definitely not to me. I would not knowingly buy a pony with writing on its hooves, regardless of who did it. I am perfectly happy with (an appropriately priced and honestly listed) rehair, assuming it was done in such a way to look original - correct colour, style, length and fullness. That is my personal preference, so it's unfair to say it's a double-standard unless you're willing to apply the same to your own preferences.
If you don't accept or like a certain condition in your collectibles, you ask about it before you buy.
Plus, any kind of mark on the pony can seep into the plastic and damage the pony. Rehairing can only do damage if you use the wrong type of glue.
Rehairs can be done professionally to resemble the old hair 100%. Permanent marking is always a damage no matter how you do it. Even recoloring the symbols can cause permanent stains on the plastic over time.
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Personally the idea of people writing on ponies to indicate it's a rehair does not sit well with me, or writing on a pony period. Man, I wouldn't even let my mom write my name on my ponies as a kid, I certainly don't want to encourage people to write on their ponies now!
I’m glad it’s not just me that has a problem with writing on feet, I thought I was just being really picky!
The thing for me is, rehairing is improving the pony, it’s not damaging and I s designed to look as close to the original as possible. What about a hair ‘transplant’ from a donor pony? I think most picky collectors just want the pony to look as mint and original as possible, so writing on the hooves is a big no-no. I only have one rehair in my collection as I prefer original hair, but if it was a very htf Pony whose body was perfect I would compromise for a rehair. I would be very sad if that lovely, mint pony body was was then drawn on
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You know, I actually had an idea about this whole thing awhile ago; why couldn't people put the mark on the inside of the pony, like maybe on the neck plug, with some sort of acrylic paint? Then it wouldn't be visible, and it wouldn't seep into the plastic. You'd need to open the pony up anyways to rehair it so you'd definitely have access to the plug. And if you really wanted it on the hoof, you could definitely still use acrylics, right? Then you wouldn't have the risk of staining! Or maybe even use pencil so it wouldn't be a permanent mark.
IMO I definitely would prefer acrylics or graphite to having pen or marker, as it stains very easily and looks just awful.
But that's just me of course!
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Pfffft. I've rehaired over a dozen G1s in my personal collection and a few G3s too. Didn't mark 'em.
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I find this debate actually quite interesting because of how different people see the whole big restoration thing. It's especially interesting because it's quite a new debate. Back when ponies were much more common I don't think we thought so much about it - also ponies age and get damaged even without us doing much to them because of how much time has passed.
The most important thing to remember is that everyone has their own personal views on this, and none of them are absolutely right or wrong.
I am also not saying people should not restore their ponies. Nor am I saying they should write on them if they are unhappy about it. I am saying that somehow the restoration work has to be clearly and openly acknowledged in such a way that, if the owner were to (heaven forbid) die and someone unconnnected to them or their collection sold the ponies, a future owner would not be scammed.
I don't really care how that comes about. I just think it's important that there is a way - whatever that way is - to ensure nobody gets scammed. Bottom line is that we have had several scams or incidents over rehairs not being marked or acknowledged. I've never heard of a scam involving writing on hooves.
On a personal note, I don't like rehairs. I don't mind ink on the hooves because I wrote my name on pony hooves as a kid and because I did, I didn't lose any of my ponies (even though a couple of them strayed). I don't mind knowing they had a life before me or another child who owned them. I would object to ink everywhere else on the pony, of course - but the hoof base doesn't bother me. So I would buy a pony with a name on the hoof. I would not buy a rehair. That's just my personal preference, but if I bought a pony and it turned out to have undisclosed hoof base ink I would not care too much. If I bought a pony and it turned out to be an undisclosed rehair, I would raise hell.
It's not about restoration as a problem. It's about making sure any restoration work is clearly identified. And as ponies age and time passes, this is probably only going to be an increasing problems.
As for donor ponies - again, it depends on whether the donor pony is in bad enough shape to be justifiably sacrificed. Otherwise you are damaging 2 ponies rather than one :/
I don't really do replica anything in my collection - no replica accessories, replica wings, rehairs, or customs of rare ponies. If I can't afford the real things I do without them. It's not wrong to buy those things. It's just my personal preference not to. Rehairing for me is a part of that.
I have issue with the "its someone else's problem" attitude, because the moment someone gets scammed, then it becomes everyone's problem and it's all over the TF forum and people want help resolving it. It should be our problem from the start to stop mistakes happening, so it doesn't need to be on the TF forum at all.
Prevention is better than cure.
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I've never heard of a scam involving writing on hooves.
Yes it would be a pointless scam. It would just lower the value and appeal of the pony.
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Meh. You keep using the word scammed, but if it's unintentional it's not a scam. It's a buyer beware situation - comes with collecting *shrug*
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Meh. You keep using the word scammed, but if it's unintentional it's not a scam. It's a buyer beware situation - comes with collecting *shrug*
Does it matter if it's intentional if it leads to someone getting hurt?
If it were a buyer beware situation, you would not end up with sellers who acquired a pony in good faith having to refund a buyer over a rehair they didn't know about.
Ultimately, it is still a scam - if someone knew it was a rehair somewhere in the process but didn't convey that information, that person is the scammer. It doesn't matter if they're not the seller, or even if it was ten trades ago. The person who didn't disclose the rehair is the one who committed the scam. And unintentional stuff like this only happens if someone, somewhere in the process, is not honest and doesn't bother to state it's a rehair.
I think the attitude you have is a really sad and disappointing one. I am not saying don't rehair. I am saying rehair responsibly. I am pretty sure if it came to an actual incident, the "it's buyer beware, your problem' defense wouldn't stand up to community scrutiny.
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Then don't buy ponies from me :)
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Then don't buy ponies from me :)
I think you completely missed my point, but never mind...
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I'm not a rich collector, and all but a rare few of my ponies have come to me from 'bait lots' in extremely poor condition. I personally quite like rehairs, and sometimes even prefer 'alternate rehairs' to 100% original ponies. That being said I would never sacrifice a mint, excellent, or even very good condition pony just for a rehair.
The trouble with Powder is that her hair is right on the line of what I usually consider needing a rehair. It's not unfixably frizzy (or even frizzy at all), which would normally put a pony in the 'keep the hair' category for me, but it is faded and translucent and very dry feeling even after conditioner and overall makes Powder look to be worse condition than she actually is.
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At this point, I'm leaning more towards keeping the original hair. I don't think it's quite worthy of a rehair, even if I would like a properly white haired Powder in my collection. I'm sure a buzz cut Powder will come to me eventually.
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...I think your Powder is in better condition than mine is. ;) Her hair looks ok to me. Did Powder ever have stark white hair? She wasn't sold here so I don't really know...?
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I've seen some pictures where her hair looks white?? But it is hard to tell, since most pictures were taken in the last decade or so, after the white would have mostly faded anyway. These ponies are all older than I am, so I never got to see them in their prime.
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Her hair is lovely. I would keep it and be happy to buy her and I’m a picky collector! I’m sure you could sell her, maybe even make an little bit of money and wait for a Powder to come up who has had a severe haircut or something. Then you can rehair her to make her look exactly how you want. Powder is a really lovely pony :)
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I'm not a rich collector, and all but a rare few of my ponies have come to me from 'bait lots' in extremely poor condition. I personally quite like rehairs, and sometimes even prefer 'alternate rehairs' to 100% original ponies. That being said I would never sacrifice a mint, excellent, or even very good condition pony just for a rehair.
The trouble with Powder is that her hair is right on the line of what I usually consider needing a rehair. It's not unfixably frizzy (or even frizzy at all), which would normally put a pony in the 'keep the hair' category for me, but it is faded and translucent and very dry feeling even after conditioner and overall makes Powder look to be worse condition than she actually is.
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At this point, I'm leaning more towards keeping the original hair. I don't think it's quite worthy of a rehair, even if I would like a properly white haired Powder in my collection. I'm sure a buzz cut Powder will come to me eventually.
Wow, I would definitely not rehair that pony. That's what Powder's hair is supposed to look like? Like seriously, I'm not sure what you think it would look like other than that.
Edit: There are different "shades" of white hair used, so maybe you were thinking since Powder doesn't 'match' some other white haired pony that her hair is damaged? But to be honest that looks to me like normal Powder hair.
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Her hair looks like some other ponies I have who I know are supposed to have white hair. Like I said, these ponies are all older than I am so I'm having to piece together second and third hand information on ponies that are over 30 years old. That's why I asked here instead of ploughing ahead with a rehair.
I would have posted pictures earlier but I only got my makeshift photo booth set up this morning.
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I think she looks fine like that :) I don't have her (I might have a bait? maybe... I'll check later) but some ponies do have more warm toned white than bright white.
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I think she looks fine and dandy! I have noticed a lot of Powders seem to have slightly thinner hair than others so I'd say she looks normal.
As for marking goes, I think the hoof works quite well. It's visible to the outside and doesn't show on display. Marking inside the neck plug might not work, since it's not obvious. If somebody receives a pony and they will notice the hooves are marked right away, while if they don't open the pony up or don't notice... Also, one point of making it permanent is so others don't remove it.
My two cents on the debate: By not marking a pony you could be responsible for someone losing money or getting hurt. Don't think that it's not your problem and don't take it lightly.
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My two cents on the debate: By not marking a pony you could be responsible for someone losing money or getting hurt. Don't think that it's not your problem and don't take it lightly.
Thank you :hug: my point entirely :)
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I think she looks fine and dandy! I have noticed a lot of Powders seem to have slightly thinner hair than others so I'd say she looks normal.
As for marking goes, I think the hoof works quite well. It's visible to the outside and doesn't show on display. Marking inside the neck plug might not work, since it's not obvious. If somebody receives a pony and they will notice the hooves are marked right away, while if they don't open the pony up or don't notice... Also, one point of making it permanent is so others don't remove it.
My two cents on the debate: By not marking a pony you could be responsible for someone losing money or getting hurt. Don't think that it's not your problem and don't take it lightly.
Hmm, very true about the neck plug. I do wonder if there's some sort of marking material that could be used on the hooves that doesn't bleed into the plastic, perhaps, but is still permanent enough that it can't be removed easily. It's a very interesting subject! I'll have to do some research and see if I can find something.
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I think she looks fine and dandy! I have noticed a lot of Powders seem to have slightly thinner hair than others so I'd say she looks normal.
As for marking goes, I think the hoof works quite well. It's visible to the outside and doesn't show on display. Marking inside the neck plug might not work, since it's not obvious. If somebody receives a pony and they will notice the hooves are marked right away, while if they don't open the pony up or don't notice... Also, one point of making it permanent is so others don't remove it.
My two cents on the debate: By not marking a pony you could be responsible for someone losing money or getting hurt. Don't think that it's not your problem and don't take it lightly.
Hmm, very true about the neck plug. I do wonder if there's some sort of marking material that could be used on the hooves that doesn't bleed into the plastic, perhaps, but is still permanent enough that it can't be removed easily. It's a very interesting subject! I'll have to do some research and see if I can find something.
Yeah, if there was a different option than a straight up pen, it would be better, but I all that would really fix is it bleeding? I know some people carve into the plastic.
Also, I want to add that marking a pony isn't just damage. It is useful, showing that this pony is not completely original. When people go in and mark ponies, they don't think "Hardy har har, I'm going to mess up this pony and scribble all over it for no reason!" It isn't just a mark. It saves people the trouble of scams or issues. It's there for a reason. Personally, having a mark that won't be seen on display preventing someone losing money or having issues is better than no mark and someone getting hurt and losing money. It's a fair trade. While you may not like it, it's selfish if you don't mark. You could be causing someone to lose money and get hurt.
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I think she looks fine and dandy! I have noticed a lot of Powders seem to have slightly thinner hair than others so I'd say she looks normal.
As for marking goes, I think the hoof works quite well. It's visible to the outside and doesn't show on display. Marking inside the neck plug might not work, since it's not obvious. If somebody receives a pony and they will notice the hooves are marked right away, while if they don't open the pony up or don't notice... Also, one point of making it permanent is so others don't remove it.
My two cents on the debate: By not marking a pony you could be responsible for someone losing money or getting hurt. Don't think that it's not your problem and don't take it lightly.
Hmm, very true about the neck plug. I do wonder if there's some sort of marking material that could be used on the hooves that doesn't bleed into the plastic, perhaps, but is still permanent enough that it can't be removed easily. It's a very interesting subject! I'll have to do some research and see if I can find something.
A light coloured Posca marker would work well for this. It works in a similar way to acrylic paint.
Still I would never dream of drawing on a pony that for 30+ years has lasted really well, occasionally in mint condition and then write on its hoof. It’s just silly. Rehairing enhances and improves the look of a pony. Drawing on it in pen does not. Ultimately though it is up to the owner and the seller to do what they think is best and for the buyer to decide whether they want to buy a rehaired/marked pony or not.
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Drawing on a pony is damage. It doesn't matter if it's "useful." You could also carve the word "REHAIR" into the side of the pony and it would convey information. But it would still be damage. The intent of someone drawing on a pony does not alter this. The little kids who gave their ponies highlighter lipstick and eyeshadow weren't thinking "Hardy har I love ruining ponies" either. They were just having fun. Nevertheless, their actions make a pony less desirable.
Obviously people can do what they want with their own ponies. Just like the people who open MOC G1s. Hey, no one can stop you if that's what you want to do. But don't expect everyone to think it's a great idea.
I just don't want newbies to get the idea that writing on a rehaired pony is a settled-on, universally approved custom that everyone does and everyone agrees to. As seen by this thread, a lot of people do not approve or agree.
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Also, I want to add that marking a pony isn't just damage. It is useful, showing that this pony is not completely original. When people go in and mark ponies, they don't think "Hardy har har, I'm going to mess up this pony and scribble all over it for no reason!" It isn't just a mark. It saves people the trouble of scams or issues. It's there for a reason. Personally, having a mark that won't be seen on display preventing someone losing money or having issues is better than no mark and someone getting hurt and losing money. It's a fair trade. While you may not like it, it's selfish if you don't mark. You could be causing someone to lose money and get hurt.
People don't rehair or otherwise restore ponies thinking "I'm totally gonna scam someone" either. Also, I don't agree that it's selfish (???) to not mark up my own ponies. I maintain it's a buyer beware situation. If you as a buyer don't want rehaired or restored ponies, it's on you to ask the seller. It's no different than asking about age spots, hair cuts, ink - pretty much anything else. It's not my fault if someone loses money. Just for the record - I don't sell ponies anyway, but if I did, I would 100% say who is rehaired/restored. But hey, if someone doesn't read and buys from me anyway? Not my problem!
We tell people all the time to make sure you read descriptions, ask for more pictures, etc, so why is it different for rehairs? If you ask a seller and the answer is 'gosh, no idea' then don't buy, or buy and take the risk.
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Im sorry if my post came off as a bit rude (it was, I apologize.) I just don't want anybody to be scammed, you know? Marking is damage. I thought since it wasn't really visible it didn't matter, but I know it does. Your posts have been read and understood :nod: I'm really sorry (I really shouldn't have said it was selfish either, it's collecting preference.) No hard feelings I hope?
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Rehairing a pony is also damage.
Looking at it objectively, it requires:
- Breaking the original neck seal
- Ripping out the original hair (however little is left of it)
- Using a rerooting tool which may or may not damage the holes further.
- Gluing inside the head with new glue.
- Potentially it also involves creating a new tail, thus maybe removing original tail and washer and so on.
I am not saying those things are wrong to do. Just that they are equally 'damaging' the original pony as is writing on it. They're permanent and can't be undone either.
Marking politics are also a bit hazy for me, because I see people getting ponies signed and that's fine, but writing rehair on the hoof is not so fine...? I really don't understand how that works.
If I had a $ for every time someone said "I'm never going to sell X so it doesn't matter", and then they sold it, I could buy a new MOC G1 pony. It may never happen, but it just makes sense to raise awareness of possibilities.
Marking may not be the perfect answer for everyone, but it is still a possible solution. If there's a better solution, then someone needs to be constructive and suggest it. Unless the solution is to let people get misled.
@BlackCurtains - Unfortunately yes, people do rehair ponies with the thought to scam people. I am pretty sure it was Greek ponies which at one point were being rehaired to create new variants or something? Plus there's the fake Reverse Gusties, and numerous incidents around Piggy Ponies being rehaired and not disclosed...to name a few. It's usually a problem more on big ticket items but there are people who will try and hide a rehair to get more money for their item. It's naive to think otherwise. Unfortunately just because you are honest with your rehairing doesn't mean everyone else is, and doesn't mean the person who (theoretically) buys a pony from you is as honest as you are. I have seen it happen to people. That's why it matters to me to make sure it doesn't happen going forward.
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I don't consider rehairing or restoring as damage. Not if done properly anyway.
I'm not naive about anything. I know you've been around since the dawn of ponies so it's your authority over everyone else but just because someone at one time purposefully withheld that a pony or two were rehaired doesn't mean it's not on the buyer to ask questions. Moreso for big ticket ponies! You win some, you lose some. Thus is the way of collecting.
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If someone was actively trying to scam, obviously they would not tell anyone it was a reroot, let alone write on it. And if someone got a pony with "reroot" on it and wanted to scam, they could just take a black marker and put a big ol' blot over the entire bottom of the hoof.
To me this seems like an 'answer' searching for a problem. I don't think people getting 'fooled' by reroots is in any way common. Yeah, Reverse Gusty happened . . . 20 years ago, when Paypal didn't exist and we were all sending cash overseas. These days a simple "Item not as described" complaint will get your money back.
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Rehairing a pony is also damage.
Looking at it objectively, it requires:
- Breaking the original neck seal
- Ripping out the original hair (however little is left of it)
- Using a rerooting tool which may or may not damage the holes further.
- Gluing inside the head with new glue.
- Potentially it also involves creating a new tail, thus maybe removing original tail and washer and so on.
I am not saying those things are wrong to do. Just that they are equally 'damaging' the original pony as is writing on it. They're permanent and can't be undone either.
Marking politics are also a bit hazy for me, because I see people getting ponies signed and that's fine, but writing rehair on the hoof is not so fine...? I really don't understand how that works.
If I had a $ for every time someone said "I'm never going to sell X so it doesn't matter", and then they sold it, I could buy a new MOC G1 pony. It may never happen, but it just makes sense to raise awareness of possibilities.
Marking may not be the perfect answer for everyone, but it is still a possible solution. If there's a better solution, then someone needs to be constructive and suggest it. Unless the solution is to let people get misled.
@BlackCurtains - Unfortunately yes, people do rehair ponies with the thought to scam people. I am pretty sure it was Greek ponies which at one point were being rehaired to create new variants or something? Plus there's the fake Reverse Gusties, and numerous incidents around Piggy Ponies being rehaired and not disclosed...to name a few. It's usually a problem more on big ticket items but there are people who will try and hide a rehair to get more money for their item. It's naive to think otherwise. Unfortunately just because you are honest with your rehairing doesn't mean everyone else is, and doesn't mean the person who (theoretically) buys a pony from you is as honest as you are. I have seen it happen to people. That's why it matters to me to make sure it doesn't happen going forward.
You know, I just can't agree with this statement hun. I think it's a matter of a collectors individual perspective. To you, it's damage. To another person, it's a restoration. It bothers some people and not others, and no side of the argument is right or wrong.
There's also something to be said about methods of rehairing. I personally hate the popular rehairing tool because despite being experienced in using it, I found it often ripped the hair plugs. I prefer a much more non-evasive glue free method that keeps the hair secure in the head and durable to brushing and styling.
Using the example of breaking the seal on the neck as devaluing I don't find agreeable either because that's something that is often done to address tail rust, mold, and dirt build up in the body It's never in my experience been something other collectors were bothered by.
It's odd to me. Rehairs were a really fun way to spruce up common and over-loved ponies only a couple short years ago. A large part of the community really loved it. It seems the fad has fizzled now but I deeply enjoy it still. Maybe people are worried about the scrutiny they'd be under in sharing? I'm not certain.
In any case, I want to reiterate that I don't feel anyone is right or wrong in this debate. It's merely a matter of personal preference and should be left at that.
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Oh I wanted to add about people getting their ponies signed at the fairs by Bonnie and co.? Sundance, Peachy, and other typical classics are pretty abundant. If someone got a Rapunzel signed I might scratch my head a bit but alas- it's the other persons pony. I don't see having a common pony signed by the creator of the franchise we love defacing <3
I will say that rehairs should be marked. Kind of a case closed opinion of mine, but I digress still an opinion. There has been a lot of instances as already mentioned of scams transpiring because of rehairing and a mark goes a long way towards protecting buyers. To be fair though, there's a lot of precautions in place to protect buyers these days but hey, its polite in the community to help each other.
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Meh. You keep using the word scammed, but if it's unintentional it's not a scam. It's a buyer beware situation - comes with collecting *shrug*
Does it matter if it's intentional if it leads to someone getting hurt?
Yes.
Yes it does matter. The very definition of 'scam' is dishonesty. Not knowing is not dishonesty. It's up to the buyer to ensure the merchandise meets their personal criteria. If they cannot discern that from the provided photographs/description alone, then they should ask. Of course a collector selling ponies should know to check (and they do in general provide better descriptions of condition, since we know what to look for) but it's unfair to expect others to do something they find harmful to their ponies just to potentially satisfy other collectors later on.
My two cents on the debate: By not marking a pony you could be responsible for someone losing money or getting hurt. Don't think that it's not your problem and don't take it lightly.
And marking up my own personal possessions in a way that devalues them in my eyes is acceptable, just because it *might* make a difference to someone later? Sorry but no, it's not my responsibility to properly document a pony for sale. If you don't accept rehairs, ask about it before you buy. Simple, easy, and everyone goes home happy.
You say it's selfish if people don't mark. I say it's selfish and incredibly rude to impose your (possible) future needs that could be satisfied in other way - by inspecting a pony properly - on other collectors, with ponies that don't even belong to you. Do what you want with yours, but don't present your personal interests as fait accompli.
Rehairing a pony is also damage.
Looking at it objectively, it requires:
- Breaking the original neck seal
- Ripping out the original hair (however little is left of it)
- Using a rerooting tool which may or may not damage the holes further.
- Gluing inside the head with new glue.
- Potentially it also involves creating a new tail, thus maybe removing original tail and washer and so on.
Breaking the neck seal can be done in a way that does not damage the pony itself, only the glue
- which has often given out completely on its own already.
If the hair has been completely frizzed or buzzcut, it's already damaged. Those are usually the ponies that get rehaired. No one is advocating for ponies in great condition to be restored.
A properly done reroot doesn't damage plugs, but you can say the same of an improperly done cleaning job, and I hear no one clamouring to leave their ponies dirty for fear of causing damage. In fact I'd say far more ponies get damaged via cleaning (Oxyclean baths, acetone, magic eraser, even hot water in the case of flocking).
Glue isn't necessary for all reroots. I personally use knots - they're obviously not factory, and need no glue.
Again removing the tail would only be done if the metal was causing damage to the pony (horribly rusty) or it was cropped / horribly frizzed.
If someone was actively trying to scam, obviously they would not tell anyone it was a reroot, let alone write on it. And if someone got a pony with "reroot" on it and wanted to scam, they could just take a black marker and put a big ol' blot over the entire bottom of the hoof.
To me this seems like an 'answer' searching for a problem. I don't think people getting 'fooled' by reroots is in any way common. Yeah, Reverse Gusty happened . . . 20 years ago, when Paypal didn't exist and we were all sending cash overseas. These days a simple "Item not as described" complaint will get your money back.
All of this. If someone's looking to be deceitful, a small marking is not going to stop them.
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The thing is, this thread is about a specific pony, who, on seeing the photos (no offence to the OP) most people have said probably doesn't need rerooting because her hair is fine.
Obviously we're not talking about buzzcut ponies. We're talking about ponies in general. Let's not avoid that as the main point. This thread is about rerooting a good condition Powder with a decent original mane.
The matter of whether rehairing is damage is clearly a sore point. I think the word damage is a bad one anyway, so let's remove it completely. The point I'm labouring is that changing a pony by marking or rerooting is a permanent change. Personal preference decides whether they are good or bad changes. But they are permanent changes and they impact on the pony's value. In most cases, a rehaired pony sells for less than a mint pony. Thus rehairing a pony with good hair would, to my mind, constitute "damage". Rehairing a buzzcut pony is still going to require removing the original roots, but in that case the damage done to remove the cut hair is somewhat offset by the restoration of some hair, if not authentic. These are two different scenarios, but the one relevant in this thread is the one about rehairing a pony with original hair in good condition. In which case, the pony's value is obviously going to take a hit through a rehair.
@Baby Sugarberry, do not even get me started on the cleaning issues and chemicals and that horrible acne cream disaster. That's even worse in my view, but it's a whole other thread completely to deal with that. BUT it does link to this in a way, since at the time nobody saw an issue with it, nobody marked or noted any ponies that had been treated with the stuff and we all know the result. I don't think this is quite like that.
Before you all tie me to the stake and burn me, I'm going to remind you that in my first couple of posts I said clearly that the whole restoration thing is an individual decision. But we now live in a world where people sell their collections and recollect and sell and recollect more than they did in the past. Also in a world of ugly ebay listing by phone where the seller's description is 'see pictures'. I feel like that mentality is maybe spreading here a bit too.
I do agree a buyer should ask all questions before buying. But a seller of course should obviously disclose any restoration work done on a pony as well. It's a 50/50 interaction in the interests of both parties.
The truth is it might not ever be an issue. But as time goes on, it seems like rehairing is probably going to get more common. Not just in G1, but if G3 suffers more hair rotting and such like...this is going to be something that gets more regularly discussed. The conversation a short while ago about the Raspberry Jam who was rehaired but undisclosed in a sale of some kind demonstrates that there are people who either can't tell a rehair or don't care when listing it.
I also want to underscore that in my earlier posts I said very clearly that even if they aren't being marked or if marking is not the right solution, some kind of record that they are rehaired is helpful. Even if it's just in your own database of your collection, a note that the pony has been rehaired. It's something at least. We're all fallible, and mistakes can happen. I don't really understand the hostility against thinking of a practical way to prevent those mistakes. Nobody is saying don't rehair, and nobody is saying you must mark your collection. All that is being said is that if a pony's been rehaired, it helps to make a note of it in some meaningful way so that in the future nobody is in any doubt.
And if that's me "having authority" or whatever nonsense then that's fine. I don't believe in people being cheated. That's my personal opinion and I stick by it. If you disagree, that's fine too. At least by discussing it, people can make up their own minds about what they think is the right thing to do, rather than just assume.
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Anyone ever put a piece of paper with a penciled note in a rehaired / restored pony? I sell restored ponies on Etsy (and fully disclose what I did) but don’t usually mark them. I can see how that info might be lost if that person sells it. Of course, the buyer would still have to ask questions or the seller might never remove the head to check! Hmmmmm....
I do agree that’s a gorgeous Powder just as she is!
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I think it's a matter of a collectors individual perspective. To you, it's damage. To another person, it's a restoration. It bothers some people and not others, and no side of the argument is right or wrong.
I agree with this. People will have their opinions and collections. We can't impose stuff on others.
@Baby Sugarberry - I'm sorry for what I said and I really don't think that anymore. I know I was wrong to say that and impose. Everyone has a right to collect how they want to. I apologize.
@Aadra310 - That sounds like a good idea! Is there a way we could permanently attach the note? Sorry to be a downer but I'm worried it could get removed...
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Anyone ever put a piece of paper with a penciled note in a rehaired / restored pony? I sell restored ponies on Etsy (and fully disclose what I did) but don’t usually mark them. I can see how that info might be lost if that person sells it. Of course, the buyer would still have to ask questions or the seller might never remove the head to check! Hmmmmm....
I do agree that’s a gorgeous Powder just as she is!
I actually thought about that and then thought of the horrible scenario when somehow accidentally Restored Pony gets wet and the paper gets damp and develops mould and then...
Yeah, I got that far in my mental nightmare and decided against suggesting it ;)
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Maybe you could mold a piece of clay, write on that, and glue it to the inside of the body? I'm not too sure that would work, but that way you have a permanent thing without really doing damage?
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Hmm, laminate the paper? Not everyone has a personal laminator but... I do so :P
I'm definitely not going to rehair Powder at this point, so no need to worry about her fate.
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I'm not there in person so I can't unequivocally say 'Powder shouldn't be rehaired' - as we all know, pictures can and often do make ponies look better than they actually are. Even if I was, not my pony. It's up to the OP to make that decision. That said were she mine, I would initially put her in the 'looks better than average for a 30+ year old toy' category at first glance. There are several shades of white especially in the early ponies and Powder tends to have the not stark white, but more soft white one. This Powder probably also has some yellowing but they're never brilliant white from what I've seen.
A note inside seems like a good idea but I don't know what it would accomplish that you couldn't tell by checking the ponies insides? Rehairs (that aren't trying to be a scam i.e. mimic factory weave) are obvious. A non-collector, and even many collectors, are probably not going to think to look inside a pony for a note unless they suspect a rehair. At which point the state of the plugs will tell the story pretty clearly.
For me restoration of any kind always has one goal - to make a pony look the way they did originally. Adding permanent markings anywhere detracts from that goal and is contrary to restoration (again, for me. Your mileage may vary and that's okay!)
@Baby Sugarberry, do not even get me started on the cleaning issues and chemicals and that horrible acne cream disaster. That's even worse in my view, but it's a whole other thread completely to deal with that. BUT it does link to this in a way, since at the time nobody saw an issue with it, nobody marked or noted any ponies that had been treated with the stuff and we all know the result. I don't think this is quite like that.
But this is exactly like that, isn't it? Something's being done to a pony that isn't obvious at first, but later on has potentially detrimental effects. So should we ink/carve up every pony that is cleaned? Clearly no. I'm not advocating for that!
There are always going to be cases like this. Undisclosed horrible smells, mould/mildew/rust, marks that were hidden due to the angle of the photograph, lighting that washes out blemishes, etc. Short of buying ponies in person (and even then!) it can be very difficult to ascertain every possible flaw.
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@Baby Sugarberry, do not even get me started on the cleaning issues and chemicals and that horrible acne cream disaster. That's even worse in my view, but it's a whole other thread completely to deal with that. BUT it does link to this in a way, since at the time nobody saw an issue with it, nobody marked or noted any ponies that had been treated with the stuff and we all know the result. I don't think this is quite like that.
But this is exactly like that, isn't it? Something's being done to a pony that isn't obvious at first, but later on has potentially detrimental effects. So should we ink/carve up every pony that is cleaned? Clearly no. I'm not advocating for that!
It's not the same, because unless there's some hidden evil to rehair material, it's not going to potentially cause a blotch epidemic going forward. And I might not like rehairs, but I'm also not interested in making out it's something that it isn't. The risk here is more about awareness. It is only similar to this in that we won't know for probably some years whether or not rehairing and disclosing is a problem or not, and by the time we know, it will be too late to change it. But rehaired ponies won't need to be quarantined and probably aren't going to wreck collections just by existing.
There are always going to be cases like this. Undisclosed horrible smells, mould/mildew/rust, marks that were hidden due to the angle of the photograph, lighting that washes out blemishes, etc. Short of buying ponies in person (and even then!) it can be very difficult to ascertain every possible flaw.
True, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Although I thought rehairing wasn't a flaw?
I accept you have a completely different perspective on this, but I'll reiterate, I said from the very start that it is a personal decision. My interest is with awareness, NOT with telling anyone what they must do with their ponies.
This isn't specifically directed at Baby Sugarberry but in general, I'd really like it if my words weren't taken out of context any further. I'm not the pony restoration police and we can do without some of the melodrama. Everyone has the right to deal with their ponies as they see fit, but that also extends to a person having the right to reject a rehair and be informed about that rehair as well.
That's all.
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Awareness is as simple as sellers saying 'hey, this pony is rehaired' and buyers asking 'hey, is this pony rehaired?' That's it. That's all you need.
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Awareness is as simple as sellers saying 'hey, this pony is rehaired' and buyers asking 'hey, is this pony rehaired?' That's it. That's all you need.
In a perfect world, you are completely right.
Of course, if the answer to the buyer's question is "I don't know," then it becomes more complicated. Especially if the seller bought it for $400 and the person she bought it from bought it from someone else as authentic who bought it from someone else who is now no longer active and beyond contacting.
Baby Sugarberry is right that it can be checked by someone who knows what to look for. But there are going to be people who struggle or don't bother to do this or who just assume it's not a rehair because it looks nice.
So yeah, in a perfect world. I don't believe in them :/ Sorry.
Going briefly back to Reverse Gusty - the ones that are authenticated by the community are only recognised as such because some folk have painstakingly recorded the entire ownership history of those ponies and can trace them back to the pre-scam period. That's serious record-keeping but because of it, we know those are real and thus the people who own them feel safe in selling them on or were happy to buy them for significant money because they had that reassurance.
That's a really extreme example, I don't think we need that for every single pony. BUT if the original rehairer disappears or goes inactive then it could cause more problems later on.
As I said, no guarantees it will. But I am British. We are pessimistic by nature. I generally expect trouble >.>
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I think the idea of a slip of paper inside is a good one, but can be problematic if it gets wet. And a buyer may never know to look...
Maybe something small and hard would be better? I'm picturing like, a dice or something, that has "rehair" painted on it. It'll rattle around when handled, so any new owner will know to look inside, and they'll see it. Small enough to fit through the neck plug, big enough not to get trapped in a leg. The rattling would force people to investigate, but isn't visible or permanent "damage". It wouldn't stop a scammer from scamming, but at least it would keep the well-intentioned but uninformed people aware. Just a thought.
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Taffeta, I'm sorry if anything I said was found to be offensive. I was under the understanding we were no longer really talking about Powder given the general consensus was she is just as she should be so I went on to address the topic being discussed.
I truly thought this was a discussion, that's all. If I contributed to it being otherwise then I give my wholehearted apologies <3 I love these pony people. I was just adding my thoughts and why.
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It was pretty obvious that the discussion had progressed past a specific case and into sweeping generalizations, but I'm not going to keep going when it's pretty clear nothing useful is going to come of it. People have the right to do as they wish (or not) with their toys, I think we can all agree on that.
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Taffeta, I'm sorry if anything I said was found to be offensive. I was under the understanding we were no longer really talking about Powder given the general consensus was she is just as she should be so I went on to address the topic being discussed.
I truly thought this was a discussion, that's all. If I contributed to it being otherwise then I give my wholehearted apologies <3 I love these pony people. I was just adding my thoughts and why.
You have nothing to apologise for. You said nothing wrong.