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Pony Talk => Off Topic => Topic started by: Majesty on September 13, 2017, 06:41:49 PM

Title: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Majesty on September 13, 2017, 06:41:49 PM

So, I'm a fan of Peter Pan and especially Tinker Bell.  I've read the original story was a play.  I've also read the original story was much darker in that Peter died as a human child and his mother imagined him as a boy but living in a world called Neverland and he never grows up so he doesn't die, etc.  I've read the actual story is much darker and not meant for children.

I've never read any Peter Pan books but I want to read something outside of what we all know, Neverland,
 Captain Hook, the Lost Boys, etc.

Any advice or recommendations is/are appreciated.

Thanks.


~Majesty

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on September 13, 2017, 09:24:27 PM

The concept of Peter Pan does get a little morbid with dead children, yes, but that was a fact of life in the Victorian era.  If you want REALLY dark children's literature of the time, try Pinocchio :)  Morbid fiction was a real warning to people in world where sanitation was primitive.

PP was a snippet of mention in a stage play, then Mr. Barrie elaborated the character more with a second play featuring Wendy and Peter and the Lost Boys.  Hook was actually added later as a theatrical necessity ;) and then the traditional stage version that most of us all have seen was produced.  This was reformed into the novel we all know as the classic - published in 1928 but having been performed since 1911. 

My favorite spin-off of the PP universe is the series that Dave Barry and Ridley Pearson wrote, Peter and the Starcatchers.  There are 4 books in the series : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_and_the_Starcatchers

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Pokeyonekenobie on September 13, 2017, 09:52:02 PM

I was also going to recommend Peter and the Starcatchers.  I've read and enjoyed those books. 

I also recommend Capt. Hook: The Life and Times of a Notorious Youth by James Hart.  It's about James Hook before he became a pirate and how he met Smee at boarding school.

I've also heard of a book called Peter Pan in Scarlet by Geraldine McCaughrean.  I haven't read it, so I don't know how it measures up but it's supposed to be a sequel to Peter Pan.

There are two other series that I'm aware of but haven't read.  One is Wendy Darling by Colleen Oakes and the other is The Neverland Wars by Audrey Greathouse.  I haven't read them yet but they look like they'll be interesting.  And one more that cropped up while I was looking up those titles is called Never Never by Brianna Shrum.

And then there are always the Disney Fairy books by Gail Carson Levine.  They're about Tinkerbell and the other Never Fairies.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Aitsuki on September 14, 2017, 12:11:33 AM

OOOH, I love Peter and the Starcatchers! The Disney Fairy Books are good too! Very beautifully illustrated.

But the original story by J.M. Barrie is actually quite grim..... For instance, in the original, Peter is the only boy that doesn't age.... whenever a Lost Boy gets too old, Peter "thins them out". He takes them away and kills them! He also didn't originally live in Never Land... he was a wild child in Kensington Gardens. He also was unable to remember much of anything he'd done or learned.... he forgot everything in order to stay young. But, such was the way of Victorian times.... they were a bit more macabre.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on September 14, 2017, 09:01:22 AM

It is speculated that the reason why elements of drowning and death are so common in PP is because many members of Mr. Barrie's family died by drowning or other early tragic accidents.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Skeen on September 14, 2017, 09:24:47 AM

I seem to remember book Tinker Bell being a really minor character and that she had died ages before Peter returned to grown-up Wendy, but that it was such a non-event that it only warranted a brief mention. 

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: nessa16 on September 14, 2017, 09:44:24 AM

Wow, it is so interesting to hear above the real stories behind Disney fairytales. It seems that most have much darker stories than anyone would imagine for something Disney would do. I don't know how many times I have heard people in shock of the true stories. I certainly didn't know all this about Peter Pan. I always thought the well known play version was the original start of PP. Makes Once Upon a Time look like child's play.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Galactica on September 14, 2017, 11:54:57 AM

I liked "Peter Pan and Wendy" the book that the Disney cartoon and various plays were often based on-  I didn't find it dark. It seemed to be written for children.

I don't remember reading that Peter killed off the lost boys- so I went and looked that part up-  the book does indeed say:

The boys on the island vary, of course, in numbers, according as they get killed and so on; and when they seem to be growing up, which is against the rules, Peter thins them out; but at this time there were six of them, counting the twins as two.

I think I must have missed that reading the book- but it isn't really explained what he means by "thinning" the boys out- maybe he just takes them back to the real world?  Guess I never thought about it.


Post Merge: September 14, 2017, 12:18:01 PM

Okay- did some more searching (instead of working of course) haha- and I don't think Peter killed off the lost boys when they got too old- and I'm not so sure the lost boys died either-  the book just says they are the boys who sneaked away from their nurses or fell out of their prams-

According to Berrie's original works-each of the lost boys referenced in Peter & Wendy grew up and became things like judges/worked in an office...  not sure if this is accurate, but it makes more sense than Peter killing them off to me... and if they could grow up, it means they never died right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Boys_(Peter_Pan)

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on September 14, 2017, 03:00:08 PM

MOST fairytales are actually pretty macabre... 

Snow White: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm053.html

"Then they put a pair of iron shoes into burning coals. They were brought forth with tongs and placed before her. She was forced to step into the red-hot shoes and dance until she fell down dead."

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Majesty on September 14, 2017, 03:13:20 PM

I wanted to read the version that's more darker.  On amazon I see several versions by Berrie.
Was it just the Peter Pan story that was darker.  I heard about someone being a pedophile and kids being killed and all that.  Is that from the original Peter Pan book or is that from Peter and Wendy or Peter Pan in Kensington Gardens?

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Ponyfan on September 14, 2017, 03:21:40 PM

Disney often takes out the darker elements from the original story for their movies. 

In the original little mermaid story by Hans Christian Anderson the sea witch doesn't just take the little mermaid's voice she

Spoiler

cuts the mermaid's tongue out and the little mermaid feels pain like knives every time she walks. The transformation into a human is also painful. 

Also, the only way she can live after the prince marries someone else is to kill the prince while he sleeps.

Ponyfan

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Loa on September 14, 2017, 03:32:01 PM

All the original stories are pretty morbid. Even the Grimm tales available now are pretty sanitized!

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Majesty on September 14, 2017, 03:53:19 PM

So I can get any of the books which are titled "Peter Pan" and it'll have a grim story?  I mean by that author GM Berrie or JM not sure which one but I see many different versions and I don't want one that's pretty much the same story as the Disney version.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Galactica on September 14, 2017, 04:07:17 PM

Quote from: lovesbabysquirmy on September 14, 2017, 03:00:08 PM

MOST fairytales are actually pretty macabre... 

Snow White: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm053.html

"Then they put a pair of iron shoes into burning coals. They were brought forth with tongs and placed before her. She was forced to step into the red-hot shoes and dance until she fell down dead."

Just as bad in my opinion, is that the Prince fell in love with Snow White in her coffin- believing her to be at that time a DEAD CHILD not much more than the age of 7 or 8 ??

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: nessa16 on September 14, 2017, 04:19:29 PM

Quote from: Galactica on September 14, 2017, 04:07:17 PM

Quote from: lovesbabysquirmy on September 14, 2017, 03:00:08 PM

MOST fairytales are actually pretty macabre... 

Snow White: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm053.html

"Then they put a pair of iron shoes into burning coals. They were brought forth with tongs and placed before her. She was forced to step into the red-hot shoes and dance until she fell down dead."

Just as bad in my opinion, is that the Prince fell in love with Snow White in her coffin- believing her to be at that time a DEAD CHILD not much more than the age of 7 or 8 ??

What?! A necrophiliac pedophile?! :shocked: That's quite disturbing.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on September 14, 2017, 07:58:07 PM

Quote from: nessa16 on September 14, 2017, 04:19:29 PM

Quote from: Galactica on September 14, 2017, 04:07:17 PM

Quote from: lovesbabysquirmy on September 14, 2017, 03:00:08 PM

MOST fairytales are actually pretty macabre... 

Snow White: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm053.html

"Then they put a pair of iron shoes into burning coals. They were brought forth with tongs and placed before her. She was forced to step into the red-hot shoes and dance until she fell down dead."

Just as bad in my opinion, is that the Prince fell in love with Snow White in her coffin- believing her to be at that time a DEAD CHILD not much more than the age of 7 or 8 ??

What?! A necrophiliac pedophile?! :shocked: That's quite disturbing.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Snow White is just one of those weird stories that you're like, how could anyone TELL this to KIDS!? 
Don't forget, Crazy Stepmother Queen demands that the Huntsman bring back ORGAN MEAT to prove the girl dead, which she then EATS. With salt.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 14, 2017, 09:59:26 PM

I had the original, or one of the original, books by Barrie as a kid.  You can find the text of it here:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16/16.txt

I loved it but yeah, it definitely had dark elements.  The primary one I remember being that Peter and the Lost Boys would periodically go and kill the Indians on the island for fun.  Honestly I think "thinning out" the Lost Boys absolutely meant killing them.  Peter Pan is stuck in childhood, and that doesn't just include the fun, joyful parts.  It includes every bad thing that can be meant by the word "childish", including a childish selfishness and lack of regard for others.

It's a really fascinating book from a psychological perspective.  Barrie was an amazing writer.

Here's the last mention of Tinker Bell:

Quote

She had looked forward to thrilling talks with him about old times, but
new adventures had crowded the old ones from his mind.

"Who is Captain Hook?" he asked with interest when she spoke of the arch
enemy.

"Don't you remember," she asked, amazed, "how you killed him and saved
all our lives?"

"I forget them after I kill them," he replied carelessly.

When she expressed a doubtful hope that Tinker Bell would be glad to see
her he said, "Who is Tinker Bell?"

"O Peter," she said, shocked; but even when she explained he could not
remember.

"There are such a lot of them," he said. "I expect she is no more."

I expect he was right, for fairies don't live long, but they are so
little that a short time seems a good while to them.

(This was a year after Wendy's original visit to Neverland, I believe.)

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Majesty on September 15, 2017, 03:17:17 AM

Was that part of the Peter Pan book too or was that a sequel?

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Ponyfan on September 15, 2017, 06:08:11 AM

Disney paints Neverland as a fun place full of adventures where the characters including Captain Hook never age. It's been a while since I've seen Disney's version but I think when the Darling parents come home and find Wendy sleeping next to the open window Wendy say something like "Look how Peter sails the ship" and the mother and father see the pirate ship in in the sky. The father says "I think I saw that ship a long time ago when I was boy"

But even in Hook some of the characters die and don't come back to life.

Regarding Snow White the evil queen also pulled Snow White corset laces so tight she couldn't breath and tried to use a poisoned hair come n her as well.

Ponyfan

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Pokeyonekenobie on September 15, 2017, 09:46:37 AM

The original fairy tales are pretty gory.  The step-sisters in Cinderella cut off parts of their feet in order to make the slipper fit.  One cut off her toes and the other cut off her heel (and then Cinderella put it on with no mention of cleaning the blood out of the shoe first).  You don't see that in the Disney version.

I read an analysis of Peter Pan once where the author of the analysis put forth the theory that Peter Pan was an Angel of Death, whose job was to collect children and guide them through Purgatory (Neverland) and on to their eternal rest.  That's why the lost boys didn't stay on the island forever and why Peter never aged or remembered the boys who were gone.  The few children who were returned home to their parents (as the Darling children eventually were) were children who had serious illnesses that could have died (the author suggested plague or influenza being the most likely culprits) but eventually recovered.  I don't remember who wrote the analysis or  where I found it on the internet as I read it about 15 years ago, but it was an interesting (if even more macabre) take on the story.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Galactica on September 15, 2017, 09:48:00 AM

Quote from: Pokeyonekenobie on September 15, 2017, 09:46:37 AM

The original fairy tales are pretty gory.  The step-sisters in Cinderella cut off parts of their feet in order to make the slipper fit.  One cut off her toes and the other cut off her heel (and then Cinderella put it on with no mention of cleaning the blood out of the shoe first).  You don't see that in the Disney version.

Lets not forget that they also had their eyes pecked out at the end by Cindy's lil bird friends...

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Skeen on September 15, 2017, 11:38:44 AM

Of all the fairy tales I've read, I think only Rapunzel had a happy ending, but only after the characters went through hell first.  Didn't she and the prince eventually find each other after years apart while he was wandering blind and she lived in a desert with their children? 

EDIT:  Oh, Majesty, one book I remember liking as a child was The One Hundred and One Dalmatians.  I don't remember the author but it was so much better than the movie to me. 

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Pokeyonekenobie on September 15, 2017, 11:52:48 AM

The author of 101 Dalmatians is Dodie Smith.  I really enjoyed the book.  There's also a sequel called Twilight Barking, which I haven't read yet but it's on my list.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Majesty on September 15, 2017, 02:55:38 PM

OK so I was completely lost looking for a version on amazon.  I knew I wanted hardcover but there were all these different versions.  I don't care that much for a picture book, I prefer to read and see the pictures in my mind as I read.

I ended up choosing this version:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login



I do have a question, what's Peter Pan and Wendy and Peter Pan In Kensington Garden?

Also, something I can't understand is why so many people recommend reading this book to their kids.  I saw lots of reviews saying this book is great for kids but it seems to be morbid and depressing.  Maybe that's only for adults where kids see the adventure and fantasy...?

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: prancingstag on September 15, 2017, 05:38:26 PM

I find Peter Pan to be a great read exactly because it's a little morbid and young kids have a keen moral compass. When Peter is cruel or neglectful, or selfish, or puts others in danger, they will cry out "but that's wrong!" :P Rather than pandering to niceness or teaching/preaching to them something they already know, a lot of older fiction will challenge the reader to find their own way or to form an opinion/response by presenting material that they may not be totally ok with. Peter Pan is a magical adventure that lights up the imagination, but it's also a great source for lightly discussing morality and empathy in a way that kids can engage with and think about on their own level.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: LadyMoondancer on September 16, 2017, 07:58:35 AM

I agree with prancingstag.  Kids realize early on that there's bad in the world.  I think they are relieved to find acknowledgement of it in their books and shows.  (For a modern example, "A Series of Unfortunate Events".)  I felt more respected by books like that.  I read Peter Pan as a kid and a lot of other books with depressing or morbid themes, and I enjoyed them.

Sidenote on fairy tales like Snow White and so on, real fairy tales like the ones passed on orally . . . those were not specifically intended for children, they were told to / for the whole village.  Later, after they were "collected" by researchers like the Grimms, the Victorians started treating them as stories for children, which is why they started getting censored.  But if you're looking at the originals they are not only violent, but sometimes outright pornographic.  Like there was a Russian folktale where a witch gave a man a magic ring that made, uh . . . a part of him . . . grow ridiculously long and his wife ends up stranded on top of it miles in the air.

Yeeeeah, the Victorians left that one out of their books.

Title: Re: Peter Pan Book, Which One Is The Original Story, Or Other Recommendations...
Post by: Pokeyonekenobie on September 16, 2017, 09:55:04 AM

When you look at the history of Children's Literature, you have to realize that the first book actually written with children as the intended audience was Treasure Island in 1882.  (That's not to say that other books we consider children's literature, like Alice in Wonderland and Gulliver's Travels, weren't written before that, they just weren't specifically intended for children.)  So anything that came before that (as most fairy tales did) didn't care to "bleach" the information for children because children weren't really considered a viable audience.  Their parents were the ones who would have money to buy written materials (assuming that they could even read to begin with) so why pander to children?  It was only after education started becoming a priority for the young that publishers cared about what they were reading.  So by the time that JM Barrie was writing Peter Pan in the early 1900s society hadn't decided that certain situations and  behaviors were inappropriate for children to be exposed to.  They knew that life wasn't all pretty rainbows and apologies from people who hurt your feel-bads so they added things in their books to prepare children for times when life just isn't pretty.  That's why those books have survived as "classics" where other books have come and gone and nobody remembers them, they just end up at thrift stores or antique stores and still nobody reads them.