Any Basic Fun retro G1 news for 2023?

[serena-hime]

A lot of this response is incredibly overblown and I think ya'll are doing way too much for speculating like that about something so insignificant.

It would have been really easy to say "wow, that's horrible, we should all DM Basic Fun and ask them to apologize and remove the photos, but also it's a little screwed up to accuse them of stealing your designs when you didn't invent the Celestial Ponies and they barely resemble your versions- maybe don't do that?" but somehow this evolved into "if you send that C&D, Hasbro and Basic Fun might never make new ponies again and they'll shut down all of the fan projects!!"

It's fine to argue with a fan-artist about the originality of their work and refute the claim that BF stole their designs and question them for requesting a boycott, but it's pretty screwed up to speculate and catastrophize about an imaginary future in which Hasbro cracks down and starts filing DMCAs on fan works of any kind as a result of a singular C&D sent by one customizer.  To argue with the veracity of the claim that Basic Fun stole her designs is one thing, to act like her C&D has the potential to be the downfall of the community is a whole other. I would also shut down my accounts if I were being preemptively blamed for such an offense, so it's no surprise if she has.

To be clear, PB was 100% inarguably correct to issue a C&D in response to her photos being used as listing images by BF- that part of her C&D was completely valid. If that C&D were to result in Hasbro cracking down on fanworks (it won't), it would be Basic Fun's fault for not understanding the ethics of stealing photos from an artist in the community that they are trying to sell product to. They poked the nest.

Hasbro is a corporation. Basic Fun is a corporation. They get C&Ds all the time, ones that are much worse and much more valid than this, ones that have been sent directly to them and not a separate company licensing their property, ones that have been sent by much larger groups than a single MLP artist. This is not the apocalyptic event that you think it is, and to act like it is just because it might, in some fantasy universe, cause Hasbro and Basic Fun to rethink any future endeavors to release un-released ponies is really weird, especially in a world where the HQG1C project is literally making premium, mass-produced MLP clones without issue (some of which are, in fact, based on never-released Hasbro designs or based on actual, officially released pony characters- I can think of seven at the top of my head), which Hasbro absolutely is aware of and likely has been since the first prototypes hit the internet, and clearly do not care, or they recognize that cracking down so hard on fan works would blow up in their faces.

PB might be wrong to think they based their interpretation on her customs, but it's not as big a deal as you're making it out to be and you shouldn't talk about it like it is. Hasbro isn't going to kill the fandom because of one C&D, you are just overstating harm.

If you love plastic horses so much that you're going to speculate to such a degree about the potential overarching ramifications of their very minor and easily debunked complaint, because you're scared that a corporation might not make you some new toys if they complain, you need to sit and think about whether or not you value these toys a little more than you should. I would never put that kind of blame on somebody's shoulders for something so small, even if they're wrong. 

[pandabear_chan]

@all the "concerned" members here that feared about the influence of my reaction to future Basic Fun and HQG1C projects etc:
The issue has been solved, but the result is none of your business at all. I know how to react here properly too in the future so please stop "worrying" about my health.

@ Pinkkittywinks, Gizmo and baby_gusty
Thank you so much for your support - I highly appreciate it!

[serena-hime]

The issue has been solved, but the result is none of your business at all. I know how to react here properly too in the future so please stop "worrying" about my health.

That is great to hear, and I hope you got the apology you deserve! And for what it's worth, your Celestials are my favorite version- love the Crumpet Pose one!

[Taffeta]

PBC, I'm glad to hear that, I hope that everything goes better from this point on.

@Serena-hime, hindsight moralising is disingenuous.

The truth is none of this was ever our business at all. It was brought to our attention by PBC's IG post, her post here and the C&D letter she shared with us.

I think 100% of people here agree that the pics should not have been used and support them being taken down.
None of us know whether there has been or will be any further consequences for this down the line. We hope not, but nobody can say either way whether it matters or whether it doesn't. Raising that concern wasn't creating drama or overreacting, it was thinking laterally about the implications for someone who has a significant reputation in this community as a skilled customiser.

With any luck this is done now, anyway.

Since PBC doesn't want to tell us how the matter has been resolved, then we shouldn't speculate on it any further.

I think it's a good lesson for everyone about copyright and IP.

[serena-hime]

 Raising that concern wasn't creating drama or overreacting

We'll have to disagree. Overstating harm (especially overstating potential harm) is not productive, and it certainly wasn't in this situation.

hindsight moralising is disingenuous.

Nah

[DreamvalleyMLP]

Only people who agree are allowed to voice their opinion? Got it. Certainly don't throw it onto a discussion forum then.
Anyway, I hope this thread gets some review pics soon so that this gets burried in the pages and it's just a faint memory.

[Snapdragon]

I’m glad Serena-hime jumped in here, because you put into words a lot of things that made a lot of sense to me once I saw them written out. I don’t really know how to weigh in, but I don’t love seeing folks speculating a potential Hasbro blowback situation where we (as a fandom) blame anyone but Hasbro. If Hasbro shuts down a collector… I’m not on Hasbro’s side there, LOL. And when Hasbro (or some affiliate) steals photos from a collector, then the collector has the right to be upset. I am glad that the images got taken down!

[Taffeta]

Since we can't know what harm, or potential harm has/has not happened as a result of this, I don't think we can comment on too much/too little in that context. I don't want to shut down anyone's opinion so I'm going to leave that there.

Snapdragon, I don't think those things happened in this discussion. I think it was more trying to get the facts straight, and trying to convey the realities of copyright. Saying Hasbro etc have the rights is not the same as taking their side. It's just the legal reality. We were worried about a Hasbro blowback - yes. Did we advocate it? No. Were we trying to prevent it? Yes. That's literally all. Serena-hime's opinions do not speak for people's individual motives, and we ALL agreed unanimously that PBC had the right to be upset about the use of her pictures. The ONLY thing that was disputed was her complaining about BF 'stealing' (her word) her designs and using them as 'inspiration' (again her words), which even if true (and it's not clear either way, no evidence), can't be legally defended because of the IP situation.

With a contentious issue like this, we're all going to have different interpretations. I don't think it helps to try and accuse or discern motives, nor castigate for people making comments in good faith, even if they didn't agree with one another.

I honestly don't think anyone posted here (on either side of the debate) with any ill will towards anyone. I think everyone wanted to do the best with protecting BPC and the wider community, with raising red flags and risk, and that subsequently discussions around some of those issues became more detailed.

We all have our own perspectives on this for whatever reason, and it's better we all accept that and move on.

In any case, I figure that we'd do better with a new thread. Recovering the ground around this isn't really helpful now, and thankfully the custom images have all been removed.

[Carrehz]

Taffeta, DreamvalleyMLP - I couldn't have put it better myself.

I don't like this idea of, we can't disagree with one another or whatever. I'm not trying to stir up an argument or anything but I just want to say my piece and clarify my view on it... cuz I think some of this has been blown out of proportion all of a sudden.

Evidently my posts were taken the wrong way and were seen as a personal attack - This was NEVER my intention. At all. Honestly I'm shocked that it appears to have been viewed that way by certain individuals. All I can say there is sorry.

I do think it's very, very good, and worthwhile, to discuss these things, the ramifications that yes, COULD have occurred from the C&D, and I honestly don't understand why that's being slammed here?? I don't.. like..

but I don’t love seeing folks speculating a potential Hasbro blowback situation where we (as a fandom) blame anyone but Hasbro. If Hasbro shuts down a collector… I’m not on Hasbro’s side there, LOL.

Now I can't speak for anyone else... but personally I wasn't placing any "blame" on ANYONE. ALL I was saying is that I disagreed with the C&D, I thought the claims of design theft were frankly ridiculous (to be blunt - might as well be, since my posts are being taken in bad faith anyway ), and I felt it was more likely to do harm than good. I didn't want anyone in the community to get hurt by any potential fallout.

Also Serena-hime, to be honest I found a lot of YOUR post to be "incredibly overblown". No one was saying Hasbro would "crack down on all fanworks"??? There's a big difference between fanworks in general, and big projects like HQG1C and we were talking about the latter.

To be honest I didn't even see anyone speculating about stuff like this as much as you make out.

I honestly don't think anyone posted here (on either side of the debate) with any ill will towards anyone. I think everyone wanted to do the best with protecting BPC and the wider community, with raising red flags and risk, and that subsequently discussions around some of those issues became more detailed.

I'm just gonna quote this cause I think Taffeta put it better than I could've. Serena, you're acting like we were all screaming and cussing out Hasbro/PB/Basic Fun/etc. All I saw here was a well-written and thoughtful, civil discussion that branched out into several other related discussions (honestly I thought the thing we picked over the most was the Pocket pony pose thing, which is really only tangentially related to PB's customs  ). And it really sucks that it seems to have been taken as a big attack when it.... wasn't? The conversation's been very civil up to now, I'm disappointed to see it suddenly take this turn.

Did the discussion go on longer than it should've? Perhaps. I did think yesterday that we'd probably all said everything that needed to be said. But what else do you expect from a forum, you know? That's the point of them, to talk about things.

I guess in the end, all I can say is, this probably shouldn't ever have BEEN up for discussion. It should've been a private matter between Pandabear and Basic Fun. But Pandabear posted it on here and well... when you post things on a discussion forum, you can't really get upset if it spurs on a discussion... instead of people rallying around you and agreeing to a boycott.

(And I agree a new thread would probably be best, given the nasty turn this one took.)

[LadyMoondancer]

Just because Hasbro has been lenient towards customs in the past and turned a blind eye doesn't mean they always will.  What's better than "blaming Hasbro" for C&Ds is using foresight to avoid a situation where Hasbro decides C&Ds are necessary.  Especially when it could impact customizers who didn't ask to be involved in all this.

I am all for moving on and/or creating a new thread.

[serena-hime]

I'm 'slamming' this kind of speculation because within this context, it did look like you were blaming PB for the possibility of Hasbro cracking down on certain fan-works/BF not making new ponies, and apparently I'm not the only person seeing that. The topic of potential consequences did not happen within a vacuum, it happened alongside every other topic regarding this issue. How does it not look like you’re casting blame on PB if the conversation of “potential backlash from Hasbro and BF as a result of this C&D” is happening in parallel with arguments about whether or not she is wrong for accusing them of stealing her work (a debate that, from my perspective, was way less polite to PB than it should have been)?



I was pretty appalled to see such speculation happening, given the fact that PB was already clearly hurt by the fact that BF took her photos, and that is why I spoke up. Such an escalation felt inappropriate in this context to me, which is why I went so hard against it. I don’t want people reading to think we’re simply going to toss them under the bus if this happens again, to make sure we keep Hasbro/BF happy so we keep getting new ponies. Even if it wasn't meant to be taken that way, that's how it looked to me.

PB deserved to be given a little more grace in this situation than I think she was, and the speculation about Hasbro shutting down fan-works as a result of her C&D was quite the opposite of that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If somebody wants to request that a mod remove the last few pages of this thread to start over, that's fine. I'm sorry to have made it go on any longer than it should have, and I hope we'll be a little more lenient to the next person who feels like their work has been stolen, even if they are wrong.

[Carrehz]

How does it not look like you’re casting blame on PB if the conversation of “potential backlash from Hasbro and BF as a result of this C&D” is happening in parallel with arguments about whether or not she is wrong for accusing them of stealing her work (a debate that, from my perspective, was way less polite to PB than it should have been)?

Well sure, if you go into threads assuming bad faith, you're gonna see that. *shrug*

Honestly I can't see any of what you're getting at, sorry. I thought the conversation was perfectly civil and fair... heck I'd have been the first to speak up if I thought anything was toeing the line. A lot of the discussion didn't even directly mention/reference PB, and when she WAS directly mentioned it was almost always with the sidenote of support for the photo thing. Serena, you didn't even speak up until after the situation had apparently been resolved this morning - if you have such strong feelings on the subject then why not say something earlier...?

I don’t want people reading to think we’re simply going to toss them under the bus if this happens again, to make sure we keep Hasbro/BF happy so we keep getting new ponies.

Heh, I thought you didn't want us speculating on potential repercussions this thread could have?

I'll just say again that I wasn't "tossing anyone under the bus", don't see anyone else doing that, and once again I 100% supported the photos being taken down. Do I think the accusations of theft were silly, yes, do I think a C&D was a major overreaction and more likely to lead to Very Bad Things, yes (again- I was worried it could come back on Pandabear herself - you keep painting this narrative of "you guys only care about new ponies!!" and I have no idea where you're getting that from??).

We're just going around in circles at this point so I'm about done here. I just want to say this... I think it's good to talk about things and I think this discussion was important, and good, and heck I'd even call it illuminating in a few ways. I just wish we hadn't had to have it in the first place, because the damn photo theft shouldn't have happened, but unfortunately it did. Fortunately it's been resolved, and that's fantastic; hopefully we can just all move on. I said this before, but I'm upset things suddenly heated up today because I was impressed at how civil and thought-out the discussion was up to this point. I'm upset that Pandabear apparently has taken a simple disagreement as a personal attack, which was never my (or anyone else's, I'm pretty sure) intention. But, alright, that's what you get with a discussion forum, you get the good and the bad. We can't all agree with each other after all, we're all entitled to our own opinion.

Now... how to put this. I personally think this discussion's run its course and it's time to just start up a new thread. I'm not trying to silence people or anything, if anyone does have anything else to say then I'm 100% in favour of you saying it, I'm just stating my opinion. But at the same time I admit I disagree with the notion of deleting the last few pages. To me that smacks of censorship, thought control, etc. How does that saying go... "those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". The idea of just pretending the last few pages didn't happen doesn't sit well with me. Ultimately it's up to the mods, of course, but that's just my view on it all. I'm just not a fan of silencing discussion just because it didn't have the desired effect that the discussion starter wanted. And that's all I have left to say about this, really.

(Hm- now where's that "create new thread" button...)

[serena-hime]

Well sure, if you go into threads assuming bad faith, you're gonna see that. *shrug*

Honestly I can't see any of what you're getting at, sorry. I thought the conversation was perfectly civil and fair... heck I'd have been the first to speak up if I thought anything was toeing the line. A lot of the discussion didn't even directly mention/reference PB, and when she WAS directly mentioned it was almost always with the sidenote of support for the photo thing. Serena, you didn't even speak up until after the situation had apparently been resolved this morning - if you have such strong feelings on the subject then why not say something earlier...?

If i were in PBs position and I read all of that while I was already going through a tough time, while people are already seemingly treating me as though I'm ridiculous for thinking BF might have taken inspiration from my work in addition to stealing my photos, I would have thought I was being told not to send the C&D for the sake of the rest of the community and fan-projects and that if would be my fault if that happened. If you don't see how it can look that way, I really don't know what to tell you!

Heh, I thought you didn't want us speculating on potential repercussions this thread could have?

The difference being that I'm speculating on something that might have actually happened- notice that I made my initial comment after people pointed out the possibility of PB leaving the community as a result of this?

if you have such strong feelings on the subject then why not say something earlier...?

I didn't see the comments about potential blowback from Hasbro (and worry that PB might leave the community- which was my primary reason for making that initial comment) until moments before I made my comment. I had no other issue with this conversation, except for perhaps the way people were refuting PB's allegations that BF copied her customs- which I think in hindsight could have been responded to with a lot more grace.

I'll just say again that I wasn't "tossing anyone under the bus"

That's what it looked like to me, regardless of whether or not that was the intended read- which, for the record, I assume it wasn't. Or rather, I worried PB would think that was what was being communicated once the conversation turned into "hasbro might get litigious if you send that and put other projects in jeopardy", especially after it was brought up that it looked like PB was closing down her accounts shortly after.

once again I 100% supported the photos being taken down.

Never said you didn't!

 

Do I think the accusations of theft were silly, yes, do I think a C&D was a major overreaction

A C&D is standard procedure when your work has been stolen (even if it's just a few pictures) and is not that big of a deal. Basic fun isn't going to quit making ponies because of it.

and more likely to lead to Very Bad Things

And I think bringing that up as a consequence in conjunction with a refutation of PB's claim that her work was copied, looks like you're blaming her (even if that wasn't the intent) rather than Basic Fun for starting this by using somebody else's photos without permission.

(again- I was worried it could come back on Pandabear herself - you keep painting this narrative of "you guys only care about new ponies!!" and I have no idea where you're getting that from??

Well there's this, among other comments in the thread:

Let's not screw up future releases for the rest of the community by throwing a hissy fit over designs that were copied from official art. Because that's rather hypocritical and frankly it would make us look super ungrateful.

I hope all of this doesn't scare Basic Fun off from making more original characters later.

I didn't come up with this narrative out of nowhere.

I was impressed at how civil and thought-out the discussion was up to this point.

I agree- up until the point where the future of BF's releases and the futures of other fan-made pony projects came into the conversation, and definitely after it seemed like PB was going to leave. At that point it seemed like too much blame was being placed on PB's shoulders when it would have been a lot easier to politely refute her claims of copying and have a little more empathy for a community member who felt slighted by BF, whether or not it was intentional.

But at the same time I admit I disagree with the notion of deleting the last few pages. To me that smacks of censorship, thought control, etc. How does that saying go... "those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". The idea of just pretending the last few pages didn't happen doesn't sit well with me.

I'm inclined to agree, but I thought the previous pages (before this) had enough value to justify keeping it and removing the rest instead of starting a whole new thread. Maybe these parts can be moved and archived instead of deleted? I don't know. Edit: I didn't realize this conversation started on the first page of this thread lol. Must have mixed it up with a different thread. Okay, yeah, a new thread is a good idea!

And that's all I have left to say about this

Agreed. I've said all I need to say. Sorry if you felt like I was coming out to get you, I wasn't talking about one particular person when I made my comment, and I'm sorry that I overreacted. I just think this situation could have been handled in a much more positive, empathetic way than it was, and I hope we'll do better if this ever happens again.

[Snapdragon]

Just wanted to jump in here; not to add fuel to the fire, but to just say that while I did get “civil” from the previous discussion, I didn’t get “kind”, which I think is what Serena-hime is responding to. Some posts were very “civilly” implying that it would be PBC’s fault if all of these bad things happened, and while I don’t consider that particularly civil, I just wanted to say that Serena wasn’t pulling that impression out of thin air, because I felt it too.

Nobody should ever give up their legal rights over their creative property because other fandom members wrung their hands over what-ifs.

[Taffeta]

I did find something that might help explain how the photos got where they did, but I wasn't going to raise it as we were trying to shut the conversation down. I will, though, in case it matters. I found a blog from 2018 which was backing LM's Celestial campaign, and the blog features pictures of PBC's customs. They are linked back to the source but not called customs. Not blaming that blog specifically but it dawned on me that maybe some members of the community got confused and sent photos of PBC's customs to BF. And BF maybe then thought they were prototypes and so went looking for them when they were talking about production.

This isn't me justifying what happened, nor is it me accusing BF of the picture usage, as I've also heard from friends in retail that it's uncommon for companies like BF to automatically send out pictures of products like that. We really don't 100% know what went on. But I can see how a misunderstanding could have been formed, and if so, it's a useful future lesson on not only citing sources, but not using other people's images in any context.

I suspect PBC knows nothing about this blog, I'm sure LM doesn't either - but I can see it as a potential smoking gun, or others like it. I am not linking it here for obvious reasons - the owner is a site member, albeit inactive, and I don't want to stir up bad feeling for what was probably an honest mistake.

So, going back to the discussion above, but the last paragraph of Serena-hime's post ascribes negative motives to being hyperanalytical.

That really bothered me. I felt like now focus has shifted a bit to HOW the subject was written, not what was said. It's also true that some aspects of the discussion have been given greater significance than was originally the case , but there's a problem when HOW something is presented is used to invalidate the points being made.

I certainly would not have posted in this had I not been worried about PBC's wellbeing and the wellbeing of other customisers who take commissions, like HQG1C. I still feel that it was a risk to include allegations of using her designs for 'inspiration' in a pseudo-legal C&D document, alongside a demand for financial compensation. That opens up the possibility of Hasbro looking at PBC's 20ish years customising for profit, in which she's used their IP for inspiration without permission, and thus - based on her own remarks - they might demand compensation in return for it.

 Hasbro hasn't made a pony I care about since 1994 so the idea that that would be a factor for me is kind of ridiculous. Yet I'm sure I'm probably the most hyperanalytical person in this discussion. I felt very much that those comments were aimed at me. As it turned out, they weren't, but that's not the point.

I don't want to talk about PBC in absentia any more, it feels disrespectful because that matter is, as she said, closed. I just wanted to make the point that people have different ways to communicate. It's always ok to call out someone when you think they cross a line, but you should do so directly at the time it happens, not after the fact, else you might do more damage than good.

And that is literally all I have to say on this.