Problem with an eBay seller

[bluerose9978]

I disagree that feedback extortion is rare. And I also disagree that it necessarily can't be "I won't leave feedback until you do" simply because once feedback is left by both parties, eBay considers the transaction complete and that everyone is happy and won't allow anyone to open cases and won't help anyone resolve problems. They consider the transaction complete, done, that's all folks.

So do not leave feedback until you are finished dealing with the transaction.

[Tak]

I've only ever been a buyer. I leave feedback as soon as the transaction is over. I think I'm lucky this is the only problem I've had.

[LadyMoondancer]

I am pretty sure you can file a SNAD even after leaving positive feedback.

My point is if the seller says "I will leave positive feedback after you do", then the buyer has the option to simply never leave feedback, and is not "out" anything. And if a buyer says "I will leave a positive feedback after you do", the seller has the same option.  Getting feedback is not something you are "due" (as either a seller or a buyer), it's just an extra perk that people may or may not grant you.  Lots of buyers and sellers never leave feedback for anyone, ever.

As a seller I always wait to get feedback first (but I never ask for it).  Partly this is because I don't want to leave a positive for a buyer and then have them turn out to be unreasonable;  if a buyer pays on time but then opens a case because of a flaw CLEARLY pictured and described, then they have NOT fulfilled their end of the bargain. (We had that happen to someone on the boards who sold a lot of clearly pictured bait ponies.)  Most buyers are great, but it's not like the bad ones are wearing flashing signs saying "bad buyer", you know?

The other reason I wait is that, strangely enough, I get a lot more feedback if I let the buyer leave it first.  I experimented with leaving it as soon as the buyer paid and I got feedback from maybe 20% of buyers. If I wait, I get feedback from about 75% to 85% of buyers.

[lostpony]

Well, I haven't sold anything on eBay for a decade and it used to be clearly spelled out in the seller's responsibilities to base their feedback on things like receiving payment as agreed and that it was specifically inappropriate to base the feedback a seller gives on the feedback the buyer gives...that was called "retaliatory" and there was a rule against it and if a buyer made a strong case for it, a negative could be removed (back then anyway; I know things have changed a lot in many ways since then).  I don't know that sellers can't give negative feedback anymore but I still believe it is extortion to withhold feedback until feedback is given because it unfairly influences the feedback given based on things outside the transaction itself like fear of retaliatory feedback.  Seller's feedback is to be based on the completion of the buyer's responsibilities, which are fulfilled upon making payment as agreed, not whether the buyer gives good feedback.  I do not feel that it is a buyer's responsibility to be satisfied, so whether the buyer is happy or not their payment completes their responsibility and it is time for the seller to give positive feedback.  On the other hand, the seller I lectured about that issue I first gave positive feedback to, because I was satisfied with the transaction and withholding my own based on theirs not being in would also be, in my opinion, inappropriate.  I also believe that on eBay it is a seller's responsibility to leave feedback for a buyer who has entered into a purchase and paid as agreed.  It is not a perk.  If you have nothing nice to say, it is better to say nothing at all but if the transaction was OK then it is a requirement of being civilized to supply the feedback, again this is my opinion.  Thanks LadyMoondancer for your information on feedback extortion and YOUR opinion on when to leave feedback.  I don't want anyone to take my position on the issue as absolute fact as to the rules.  Oh, I really don't mean to go on about this but I disagree that not opening meritless disputes is part of the buyer's responsibility:  buyers can be a pain.  Dealing with that pain is the seller's responsibility.  Fight the meritless dispute, but the feedback for completing the transaction is owed to them and should not be held over their heads.  My opinion.  As for the amount of feedback received, I as a buyer did used to watch and see if the feedback was left and consider not leaving feedback as a result, but that brings me down and as a seller I thought about how it made me feel as a buyer to have feedback withheld which had a big influence on my position as a seller.  These days I don't even look to see if feedback was made, I just do my part and leave my buyer feedback right away when the package comes in and looks right so sellers who wait but don't say anything get their feedback from me just the same.  Recently, some  7 points came in all at once for some things I bought months ago and I wondered most of that time if the buyer was ever going to leave it, and considered asking but eventually it happened on its own.  As a buyer I like the polite little notes that say Please don't forget to leave feedback if you are happy! (I'm looking at one right now that simply says "Thank you for your purchase.  Positive feedback is appreciated, -Jessica" and it makes me feel warm fuzzies for this seller and very motivated to leave the feedback her immediate shipping and careful packaging deserves) and there is nothing wrong with a followup email asking if everything was OK if you need that feedback.  Regardless, it is my firm opinion that feedback is owed to the buyer upon completion of payment, period. 

Absolutely, I agree that demanding a partial refund that is not owed under threat of negative feedback is extortion, yes.  However if a refund is owed then stating that negative feedback will be given if the refund is not made is a legitimate and appropriate tool because refunding when appropriate is part of the seller's responsibility.  I as a seller had a buyer demand that I ship something for free or he would give negative feedback and I was afraid and thought about it for about a day, then I told him I would have to receive the agreed shipping amount, and he simply requested to cancel the sale, which I then did at his request even though he wasn't entitled to a cancellation, which wasn't kindness on my part as I was happy to reverse that transaction because he had won a $50 (ebay price) piece of equipment for $1 because I had poorly positioned it and he still expected me to supply $15 shipping cost for him?  It was a very rare thing in my experience:  I sold thousands of dollars of Cisco network equipment and it only happened that one time.  I should have said in my experience feedback extortion is rare.  I don't know anything outside my own experience.  Maybe it is more common now.  Or maybe selling professional equipment is different than collectibles.  In either case thanks bluerose9978 for correcting my statement.

The only time I ever had to threaten negative feedback happened a few months ago when as a buyer I was shipped an item made of a very poor fake leather that was advertised as "genuine leather" and the seller argued with me saying that I needed to take it to a lab to have it tested and I would see that it was real.  I know the difference, and don't know of any "lab" that would test it for me (?!).  After several exchanges I said that if some offer to satisfy me wasn't made I would say what happened in a negative feedback.  The seller then offered a refund, and gave it to me so I left good feedback saying "good customer service".  This was appropriate use of threatening negative feedback for a refund, and I felt bad to have to resort to such measures, and I would have preferred to have the described genuine leather item that I had entered into a purchase agreement for.  I didn't request a refund in particular, I asked the seller to ANYTHING to make good on an incorrectly described item.  I also didn't really like the seller's tone but, that person did reply to my communications and after a haggle did make satisfactory restitution so the customer service was in the end much better than what happened to many of the buyers of the seller this thread is about.

I didn't mean to make this about the issue of feedback extortion so I apologize about being unequivocal about that issue as it was extraneous to the topic.  When I sold things I considered it a buyer's right to leave me negative feedback if I did not make good on a transaction and I felt that waiting for their feedback was unfair to them.  I always left feedback the moment the payment was received, and then I shipped.  I was never aware that feedback had any impact on disputes either, but then I never opened any sort of dispute as a seller and when I begin selling again, I do not intend to open any disputes.  It is bad business and hurts feelings.  I would prefer to eat a listing fee.  It's the cost of doing business.  I also would not give a buyer negative feedback even if I could, even if they didn't pay or communicate.  I would just not send the item, eat the listing fees, then relist it after diligent attempts to reach a deal with the buyer.  I don't expect anyone else to conduct themselves this way of course.  I just find disputes and negative feedback to be distasteful and hurtful and I don't engage in them.

Under the circumstances, Tak, I would not even leave your seller negative feedback, and in the instance I describe above, had the seller not refunded I would not have actually left negative feedback either.  But that's just me.  I find I have many transactions where the only disappointments are that some items looked better in the pictures than they seem in person, and that's nobody's fault so I leave positive feedback anyway without complaint.  Again that's just how I do it.

Which reminds me, my first G1 ponies just arrived today and I am very pleased to be holding some G1 ponies in my hands for the first time but I am concerned that they seem to be dirt magnets and I don't know how I am supposed to play with them without getting them dirty.  I washed my hands first and still left smudges.  Sigh.  I probably won't collect a great many because I am not sure how to enjoy them, lacking space to display them.  They are still nice though.  I got Pony Bride and Parasol and I am afraid I will rub off Parasol's glitter, which is in good shape, if I touch too much.  I am waiting on Baby Beddy Eye Sleepy Pie to arrive to see if I like the little ones and the funny eyes in person.  I guess others here don't like those eyes because they look creepy....so I am told...but they remind me of a doll I had as a child that had such eyes and I think I will like them.  I also got my G1 complete series DVDs and 4 G3 movie DVDs today too so I can finally watch and see how I like those too.  So for me, it was a good eBay day. 

I'm glad to hear things are looking up for you, Tak...and that you did a lot better than others who bought from that seller.

[Tak]

I left a neutral feedback stating that I was disappointed that they didn't stand by their word and were incommunicado. I've never left anything except positive and truthful besides that. Even though one package leaked. I live in a rainy area so not their. I left positive and five stars just noting that the package leaked. I really don't want to ruin anyone's business and as I said I had a really good transaction with them in December.

[silverdawn]

I've had a couple of buyers pay me right away, then immediately ask to cancel the sale because their kid changed their mind, they didn't read my description, or wanted their money back for whatever reason.  If I leave positive feedback right away before a transaction is complete they get positive feedback they don't deserve.  This is just one example of a reason why I don't leave feedback before a transaction is complete.  A buyer is not responsible for giving me positive feedback, but they ARE responsible for doing more than just sending a payment.  If their behavior after payment is sent is uncooperative, threatening, hostile, or they ask you to violate ebay's rules in any way, they should not get positive feedback.  Irregardless of what feedback they leave you.  Again: buyer responsibility goes beyond hitting send on the paypal button.

I also don't require a buyer to leave me feedback to leave them feedback.  What I do require is for the transaction to be complete.  In some cases, they just tell they received their item, all is well, then I will happily leave them feedback.  Many times I don't receive positive feedback back from the buyer afterwards.  Which is fine.  They are not obligated to give me feedback of any kind.  Feedback is optional and not required.

Extortion:  the act or practice of extorting especially money or other property; especially :  the offense committed by an official engaging in such practice

I'm not extorting feedback from anyone by waiting for a transaction to be complete.  I don't require feedback from them first.

[LadyMoondancer]

Absolutely, I agree that demanding a partial refund that is not owed under threat of negative feedback is extortion, yes.  However if a refund is owed then stating that negative feedback will be given if the refund is not made is a legitimate and appropriate tool because refunding when appropriate is part of the seller's responsibility.

That is textbook feedback extortion, as in "eBay actually lists it as an example of feedback extortion."

Buyers:

The buyer isn't allowed to threaten to use Feedback or detailed seller ratings in an attempt to force a seller into providing:
- Goods or services that weren't included in the original item's description or purchase price.
- A return, refund, or replacement item.

eBay will side against buyers who try to leverage a partial refund by such methods.  They also will remove negative feedback left from such an encounter if the seller calls them.

[Tak]

I think this thread is getting a wee bit hostile. Silverdawn, you're very right that it's not extortion. I purchased a pony described as lofty with a picture of swirly whirly. I couldn't get a hold of the seller before the auction ended. Afterwards he/she messaged that oops they put up the wrong picture and they sent the correct one. I had to respond that I thought I was buying the pony in the picture and could return the other asap. They cancelled the transaction which required a refund since I always pay asap.

[kwhite]

Speaking of leaving feedback, I'm wondering what other's do when there are multiple items being purchased on one order.. do you leave feedback on one item in the entire purchase or for each individual item?

[silverdawn]

You can leave feedback on each individual item, but it only gives a +1 or -1 for the total transaction.  I usually leave feedback for each individual item anyway, just to let my seller/buyer knows I was happy with each transaction.   But 1 feedback is always better than none at all, especially if you buy/sell quite a bit

[lostpony]

Everypony,

I agree.  You are all correct.

It's a matter of style.  Happy eBaying.