The My Little Pony "Stigma"

[Sparkle Pony]

Personally speaking I think a lot of the "girly" flak that MLP gets is due to G3.  It was definitely a lighter and fluffier generation and a lot of people seem to latch onto that.

[ponycake]

I'm agreeing with sexism. Seriously, liking "unicorns and rainbows" is very stereotypically girly and made fun of even I think over dolls. When you're talking about girly you say  'unicorns and rainbows.' I think if MLP does get more it's probably because of that.

MLP wasn't a thing in my school because I was born in 88 and g1 was kind of before my time, but it always surprises me when other people said Lisa Frank was popular in their school. Not mine at all. It was not cool to like girly stuff. If you had Lisa Frank stuff it was kept quiet and away from the rest of kids. And we're talking even little girls who couldn't show interest in girly stuff made for their age.

To the public, adults liking it is even worse. For the men, even with like male geared toys, I think it shows people 'weakness' and how dare men not be masculine! And for women it's like there's something wrong with them.

[MJNSEIFER]

I'm really sorry, but I am going to have to say something on the Lauren-topic, I'm sorry, but I respect her too much for it to go unsaid.  After that, I'll respond to the actual topic point.

Firstly, as a brony, I can honestly say, as far as "Faust-Worship" goes, I have seen next to none.  There are bronies who at the very least respect her and those who are fans of her, but the majority of what I've seen don't seem to respect her at all.

Now, I'm not saying that everybrony hates her, or disrespects her - she does have fans in the brony fandom, and maybe they are equal to the ones that don't support her, or maybe they are the majority, but I tend to notice the haters/those who disrespect her more.  I often see Lauren treated by bronies, as someone who had very little importance to the show, other than be the one to start it off - they act like she just came in, pitched a show, and did nothing.  Now, I know that a lot of people worked on FIM, and I respect all of them, and am thankful to all of them (though I will naturally criticise them if I think they did something "wrong" in my eyes), so I am not saying Lauren made the show awesome (in my opinion) all by herself, but she did a lot more than what bronies give her credit for.

Some bronies act like she left after the pilot episodes, and some act like she left after season 1 ended.  Neither of these things are correct; she stood down at the end of season 1, and season 3 is the first season to not feature Lauren at all.  Standing down, simply means she was less involved in things, but still involved enough so that it was her show.  In season 1, she had a lot more control over the show, and for all we know some of the episodes could have been based on her ideas.

I am not taking credit away from the people who wrote the episodes, even if this is the case.  Like I say, everyone involved deserves credit, but as I know that she created stories for My Little Pony when she was younger, I have every faith that at least some of it made it into FIM when she was there, even if all she did was suggest the storyline to whatever writer was doing that episode, or show him/her the story assuming she actually wrote it down (I created stories as a child, but I was too lazy to do any actual writing until I was older).

Even with the bronies who do like her, I've seen next to none of them treat her like a Goddess in seriousness (though, if they do, I don't agree with that either).  I have seen some statements like "Queen" and "Goddess", but I'm sure it's no more than how those phrase are usually used by people who are fans of someone, either way it is nice to see, and heart-warming for me, that there are bronies who are fans of her in some way, and even draw her OC.

I can also honestly say that a lot of bronies only seem to take what she says as "gospel truth" when it pleases them.  In other words, they only treat her word as gospel when it's they wanted her to say - she'll say something that matches their headcanon, and suddenly, she's awesome, and they'll constantly point out that Lauren "said so" in the following arguments (and I can think of two occasions, where she didn't even say what they wanted to hear, but they twisted her words so she did, essentially*), but the second she says something that doesn't match their headcanon, her opinion suddenly doesn't matter because she's "not part of the show anymore".

I can't find the interview where she says that about girl's cartoons now, but when I read it, I'm sure that it read to me as she was talking about other girl's shows, not My Little Pony.  If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but that's how it looked to me.

Finally, I know that she was more of a fan of the toys, not the show (though, I still see a lot of the "Concept Six's" personalities in the Mane Six in the G1 Cartoon), but this was because she was playing with the toys, and creating her stories first - not because the show was bad, and seeing as FIM seems very respectful to the older generations, under her control, I'm sure she respected all of the previous generations, even if she didn't like the shows.  FIM in season 1 and 2 (her era) was so much like a combination of both G1 cartoons, G3, and even some G3.5 I think.  I actually think that FIM is more G3 than G1, at times, but it takes bits and pieces from them all ultimately, or it did.  I think she at least respects them, but if she doesn't then it's her opinion.

I respect her, not as a Goddess, but as a person, someone who got to be a part of something she loved when she was younger, which is something I would jump at the chance to do.  I respect her the same way I respect other artists, and writers online and off, and I do find her relatable - she seems like such a down to Earth person in the interviews I've seen.  One can forget she's a professional, and look at it like it's one of us doing something.

*This refers to Applejack's parents, and Scootaloo's flying.  If anyone wants me to elaborate, I will.

Sorry about that, I had to say something because it gets to me, I'm sorry, but it does.  Anyway back on topic, I think, like others have said, it's because people automatically think that girly is going to be lame and sissy, which a lot of the time, it's not.  Even when the girl's show isn't an action show, it can still have interesting characters to relate to, and good storylines.

My Little Pony tended to mix adventure with slice-of-life very well, and pretty much every generation had some adventure in it (even G3.5 had Twinkle Wish Adventure), people tend to over look the conflict side of G3 because there were no villains, but conflict is not "when there's a villain", it's "when things go wrong" or "when the characters are at risk" - both these things happened during G3. 

As a brony, I will admit that some members of my fandom have alluded to the problem - they have not realized that Lauren's point (sorry to mention her again), was that it's okay to like shows for girls, whoever, you are.  They didn't get the message - they are constantly trying to find ways to prove that the show is not for girls, when they should be accepting it for what it is, and loving it for what it is.

"Hey look, there was a fight scene!  This can't be for girls!!" ~ A Brony (probably).

There are boys and girls who like action, there are girls and boys who like cute moments.  If the show is billed as a girl's show - then it's a girl's show.

Also, people sadly tend to be stereotypical to girls - I have mentioned this before, and it's on LadyMoondancer's tumblr, I think, but there was a test audience to a movie, which I think was Green Lantern, and they split the boys into various groups of age, but they just threw all the girls in together, implying they thought "all girls were the same".  They miss the fact that there are many ways to be a girl.

[Taffeta]

I can also honestly say that a lot of bronies only seem to take what she says as "gospel truth" when it pleases them.  In other words, they only treat her word as gospel when it's they wanted her to say - she'll say something that matches their headcanon, and suddenly, she's awesome, and they'll constantly point out that Lauren "said so" in the following arguments (and I can think of two occasions, where she didn't even say what they wanted to hear, but they twisted her words so she did, essentially*), but the second she says something that doesn't match their headcanon, her opinion suddenly doesn't matter because she's "not part of the show anymore".

I personally think there's a big difference between the Arena bronies and the mad internet spam meme "bronies". I think that, when the fad has died down, that latter group will disappear, leaving only the real fans of G4 behind.

Also, in terms of Lauren, her views are valid as a pony fan, and I don't think either it matters how long she had G1 for as a kid in terms of her love for them. She's obviously done a lot for G4, but I don't really think about her in terms of MLP in general. She's a fan, like we're fans, but I'm not interested enough in G4 to see her as anything else, and certainly not someone whose words should be taken and used as a canon authority on what any generation of MLP before her own was or wasn't. My Little Pony predates G4, which I think a lot of the internet-meme-bronies forget, ignore or feel so insecure about they have to spend time and effort using Lauren's words and their own ideas to trash earlier generations.

Again, I re-emphasise, I am not talking about Arena bronies.

Also, people sadly tend to be stereotypical to girls - I have mentioned this before, and it's on LadyMoondancer's tumblr, I think, but there was a test audience to a movie, which I think was Green Lantern, and they split the boys into various groups of age, but they just threw all the girls in together, implying they thought "all girls were the same".  They miss the fact that there are many ways to be a girl.

That part is true, and won't probably change. There is still a big issue in this world of gender inequality, even in allegedly equal societies. I just don't really see MLP as part of that gender struggle, because my experiences weren't really that way growing up.

I can see how G3 might have skewed the popular perception of the brand. The conflicts the G3 ponies dealt with were on a different framework and were, maybe, more "feminine" in terms of them being related to interactions, social conflict, rather than fights or whatever. BUT I also think to say so puts us in danger of stereotyping ourselves into that bracket. I personally think G3 had too much pink and purple, both in the ponies and the packaging, but then is that girly? If we say those colours are girly, aren't we confirming the stereotype?

Just a random note of interest, but I remember an article we had to do in translation class when I was doing my Japanese MA, about colour perception and gender stereotyping in Japanese tradition. Historically, pink is a masculine colour, it relates to sakura and flowers were also hugely associated with noble tradition and the warrior culture. I believe, if I remember the article right, blue was a more feminine colour. In modern Japan, western influences have reversed this trend. The article did a test on small children, to find out what colours they found most appealing - but ultimately the conclusion was it was impossible to tell whether the children were influenced by the colours their parents preferred or whether they genuinely gravitated towards certain shades.


I should add that this past week I have been watching a shoujo romance anime at the behest of one of my best friends. I am a girl, he is a guy. He plays dark fantasy games and listens to heavy metal music. He loves this anime way more than I do. So who knows? Maybe we're misjudging the male mindset in all of this, too.

[Sweet_Stuff]

I guess I don't see the big deal? I've only seen this issue come up since g4/bronies came about.

I grew up in the 80s and had a bunch of ponies. My brother even had 2! (baby racer and Tabby if you're curious) I had some he-man figures and ninja turtle, too. While we were perfectly aware which aisles these toys were sold in they were pretty much all played with together.

I collect G1s now bc they are my favorite line (and one only has so much room). Now this whole grown men avidly watching FiM is different and is admittedly odd to even to me. I've watched the show. It's ok. It's not THAT great. I'm frankly surprised how popular it is. I guess I should be happy bc it keeps mlp alive (...but no so thrilled with g4 brushables anyways).

I don't want to start anything I just want to express my opinion from a 80s kid/collector s pov.

Same here..We share similar stories/thoughts!

[Artemesia's Garden]

I personally think there's a big difference between the Arena bronies and the mad internet spam meme "bronies". I think that, when the fad has died down, that latter group will disappear, leaving only the real fans of G4 behind.

Hope so!

[Strawberry Swirl]

The Faust worship is something that really gets me.  She actually wasn't that big of a fan of the brand when it was making its run.  Her childhood herd ends abruptly with Year 3 because she was 12 by the time Year 4 got going and moving on.  There's nothing wrong with that, and she did have a have soft spot for My Little Pony going forward, but she's not the goddess of pony bronies make her out to be.  She was a standard fan who happened to build a career in animation to be in a position to produce a show.

Faust has always been very iffy to me. I appreciate her art style and the feminist themes she wove into this gen, but she's one of those feminists that equate "feminine" or childish things as somehow shameful and it doesn't sit well with me. Tea parties, dress up and pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows aren't a bad thing but everything I've heard from her regarding her thoughts of the "old" MLP cartoons kinda imply the opposite.
(That's just my onion though.)


I'm kind of a hypocrite though, heh. I'm mostly here for the toys as well.
(stares at its list of favorite ponies, remembering that 90% of which were not featured in any cartoon)

[Jordan]

I'm kinda glad this whole brony fad came in. I can collect ponies without being questioned why. I did come from the G4 line but I do have quite a few G3's and a handful of G1's now that I definitely want to expand on!

[ringwraith10]

Needless to say, MLP has been the butt of many a cruel joke.  Even Lauren Faust, the supposed Matron Saint of Ponies(...)

And THIS is where all the problems come from, treating Lauren like some almighty deity that changed the word.

Well... this isn't where all problems come from. But if you call Lauren Faust the "Matron Saint of Ponies" in one breath and then say that she puts down older generations in another breath, it doesn't sound like she's being very saintly. I really don't see how she is any different from anyone else, though. How exactly does she come to be the supposed saint of ponies?

I agree that Barbies get a lot more flack than ponies. Barbies get the ultimate PINK aisle in stores (and until Monster High came along, Barbies had their whole own aisle!). Here's an interesting article I read about Barbies long ago that discusses everyone's hatred towards Barbie. It talks about how she represents unrealistic body images, etc. Ponies don't do that... unless you think that real ponies actually look like G4s (or are pink or blue or any other unusual color).

But I can say that I have had two experiences in my life where someone said something rude about ponies to me.

1) I was about ten and a friend of mine who lived next door had a friend from out of town visiting. We were all hanging out, and I started talking about ponies. In order to sound "cool" in front of her out-of-town friend, my friend said something along the lines of, "You're a prissy girl, aren't you?" Well, no I wasn't. In fact, I could have found a spider, picked it up with my hands, and put it in her hair right then and there. I didn't. And it wouldn't have mattered anyway whether I was "prissy" or not (though I would have thought the friend knew me better than that). We also didn't remain friends for very long.

2) A couple of years ago (2013 maybe?) a friend and I were at the mall. I said I wanted to go into Claire's, then acknowledged that the store is marketed to young girls. My friend didn't have a problem with this, but said, "Well, that's not weird, as long as you're not into My Little Pony or something..." I stopped, looked at her, and said, "Do you KNOW me? Have you ever been to my house?" After a brief discussion she apologized and said she didn't really know why she had said that, and thanked me for correcting her faux paus. We are still friends.

[Taffeta]

I clearly haven't watched enough G4, because the bits I have watched didn't strike me as particularly "feminist" :-/. Rarity is rather stereotypical in her fashion consciousness, Pinkie Pie has the frivolous party gene, Rainbow Dash is a tomboy, and by being a tomboy, she reaffirms the "girly" stereotype for the others. I dunno, maybe I just haven't seen enough of the series to really judge. But, if she has since left the show directly, probably the show eps I've seen are the ones she was directly involved in.

The only real issue I have with Lauren Faust's view of the G1 show is simply that it doesn't make much sense. I know she's maybe not as involved as she was, but then a lot of the darker G1 themes have maybe appeared in G4 since was less involved? Not sure about that, but the comparison for me can be summed up with Scorpan and Tirek.

Based on discussion with my G4 obsessed student, who gives me a detailed rundown of every episode week by week when I work in his class, I understand that Tirek and Scorpan are brothers in the FIM series. They're plotting to steal magic, but ultimately Scorpan befriends the ponies, comes over to their way of thinking, opposes his brother and helps to protect Equestria.

The original rendition of Tirek and Scorpan is a lot darker in my opinion. Scorpan is not Tirek's brother, but a prince whose form has been mutated under a spell. He (along with Spike) is a slave, and forced to enslave others (namely the ponies, Bubbles and Moondancer being among them I think)? to turn them into beasts to pull Tirek's chariot of darkness. The saviour in this story is the Rainbow of Light, which makes its first appearance (and on which the Elements of Harmony are not so subtly based).

Faust must have grown up with episodes like that one, if she stopped around year 3. That being the case, I do wonder where she got the idea that G1 was all parties and crying to defeat the villain. Unless she's been misquoted, which is possible. I don't deny there are a few very silly episodes in G1, but, you know, even weird ones like the Ice Cream Wars seems to have had some kind of trigger - I recently discovered that there were genuine "Ice Cream Wars" in Glasgow in 1982, and, given the really BAD accent of Fudgie McSwain in that episode, it seems possible that that incident inspired the pony episode somewhat.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/03/deadly-glasgow-ice-cream-wars/

I have never been in the community as a collector because of the animation, I've been here for the ponies and the ponies I grew up with are those printed in the comics, which is almost all of the ponies sold within the UK plus a few early ones we didn't get. Each of them has a character of their own, several have unique personality traits and magic tricks and characteristics and therefore the canon is wider and more diverse than the old TV show could ever really manage. But I am still fond of the old show, and don't think it deserves the criticism it sometimes gets online.

That said, while I respect G3 and G4, I think that any girly assertions come from them, rather than from earlier. The obvious comparions, going down to toys and merchandise, is how they are packaged. If you look at the average G1 card across the line, most cards are NOT pink and the key theme/logo is a rainbow. Admittedly, the last years in Europe have pink cards (and they're fairly horrible and garish, tbh) but they still have the rainbow.

G2 cards are largely blue, and also have the rainbow. It has changed, but it is still a rainbow.

G3 and G4 have pink logos, and hearts. G3 have pink as standard for their packaging, which adds to the stereotype. True, G4 cards are not all pink,  but just looking at the only 2 carded G4 ponies I have on my shelf, Neon Rarity and Masquerade Sunset Shimmer, the latter of those has pink shades taking up the entire top of the card with the logo, while Rarity's card has a prominent pink logo, even though the card itself is not pink.

I am pretty sure that's a good place to begin with the "girl-orientated" image of My Little Pony.

[Jordan]

The original rendition of Tirek and Scorpan is a lot darker in my opinion. Scorpan is not Tirek's brother, but a prince whose form has been mutated under a spell. He (along with Spike) is a slave, and forced to enslave others (namely the ponies, Bubbles and Moondancer being among them I think)? to turn them into beasts to pull Tirek's chariot of darkness. The saviour in this story is the Rainbow of Light, which makes its first appearance (and on which the Elements of Harmony are not so subtly based).

I think they made that change because they established humans were in another dimension and not in the same one with the ponies.

[Al-1701]

Tirek and Scorpan are also extra-dimensional aliens.

I was rather disappointed in G4 Tirek.  With two episodes and a Fiendship is Magic issues, all they could come up with is he wanted to absorb Equestrian magic to make himself a kaiju and blow stuff up.  G1 Tirac was the corrupter, and his realm and minions gave you the sense the "Night That Never Ends" was not simply darkness forever but the mutation of the world into his twisted image.  Tirek worked as a simple villain to fight but not a shoutout to MLP's first and one of its most iconic villains.

[aquamarinemolly]

I hope someone is collecting all this for a dissertation, it is fascinating sociological data. And would be very interesting to see an analysis over time, including all the G4 bullying and negativity experienced by bronies. If it was my book, of course it would also include a section on positive stories and outcomes, detailing positive personal outcomes related to My Little Pony

[Taffeta]

In terms of other dimensions, my memory is rusty but I am pretty sure that there's some dimension crossing in G1. Firefly etc have to go over the rainbow to get Megan, they're not just readily there on the doorstep. Within Ponyland, there are various other creatures/"people" but they aren't human as such. And, of course, some of them live in dimensions too - such as Tambelon.

I hope someone is collecting all this for a dissertation, it is fascinating sociological data. And would be very interesting to see an analysis over time, including all the G4 bullying and negativity experienced by bronies.

I'm not really sure whether you're talking in general, people not accepting brony fandom or judging people for liking MLP in the modern age...I'm also not sure whether you're calling all pony people bronies or whether not, so forgive me if I'm taking your words out of the context that you meant them.

I think of brony as a g4 term, and as such, I also think there's been an amount of nasty stuff from the outer G4 fandom (beyond the Arena) towards older generations, and to fans of the G4 line who do not want to participate in the stupid element (the online meming and such like).

As I mentioned before, I have a student who is passionate about G4. He is also very receptive to discussion on other generations, but he frequently quotes this which I believe is somewhere from the mainstream G4 fandom - was it on a TV documentary or something?

I think it's longer, but this is the bit that I hear at college all the time:

"Generation 1 appeared on tv in the 80’s
It was made to sell toys, plots were hardly very weighty.
And generation 2, I do not mean to grouse and gripe
But these characters fell right into the girly stereotypes.
And generation 3 is just too awful and too tragic,
So let’s jump to number 4, where friendship, is magic!"

I don't have issues with people hating other generations, but there still needs to be the mutual respect. Poems like that kind of reinforce the negative stereotypes that we've been talking about. And it is a poem that originated WITHIN the G4 community somewhere. It's internal, not external.

 A lot of people - fans and non-fans won't stop and think whether or not the poem is right. It rhymes, like my little pony, skinny and bony, and therefore it gains momentum. As I said, my student repeats it, frequently...and he is not anti-other generations. We've had some great comparative discussions about things like smooze.

BUT he still repeats that poem, nonetheless, especially the line about G3 (about which I think he knows very little).

It's just because it's there in the fandom, and available, so he repeats it because he's seen it repeated and reposted around forums.

Stuff like that helps to promote a negative stereotype for older generations, because of the sweeping nature of the statements included.

It sums up what I think is bad about the modern craze over MLP, and where I think a lot of the bad feedback comes from. People fit into one of 5 categories where MLP is concerned, in my view:

#1 Meme bronies (vocally pro G4 on the internet)
#2 True bronies (invested fans of G4 only)
#3 Fans of mixed generations including G4
#4 Fans of other generations than G4
#5 Not fans of MLP.

I think the majority of negative energy I've experienced relating to MLP and collecting in recent years has come from the first of those groups, who think they're being funny or clever, rather than seriously considering whether other people are upset bytheir actions or comments.

 I am also pretty sure that a fair number of the second group on that list have taken a lot of flack because of the actions of that first group, which has helped them get sucked into the negative and probably garnered them unfair criticism as a result.

I have a lot fewer issues with non fans of the genre, because they are generally not interested enough to insult it. People I work with and friends of mine know I collect but nothing is ever said about it. It is just a non-event in their world, so they don't really discuss it.

[Al-1701]

Ugh.  That "poem" was created by the staff of the brony documentary and recited by John de Lancie himself in its intro.  Yes, it wasn't bronies but entertainment professionals who came up with it.  Like I didn't have enough reasons to hate that animation as it was.

This is where it came from.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hd0-cGkClMQ