collapse

* Navigation

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

* Who's Online

Poll

Gypsy

have her
16 (45.7%)
want her
16 (45.7%)
new to me
0 (0%)
pass today
3 (8.6%)
army
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Voting closed: April 27, 2021, 12:04:26 PM

Author Topic: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy  (Read 4436 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Taffeta

  • Trade Count: (+62)
  • Colombian Baby Pony
  • ******
  • Posts: 16059
  • Gender: Female
  • UK Pony, Jem and Mediaeval Japanese obsessive :D
    • View Profile
    • The My Little Pony Scrapbook
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2021, 08:27:37 AM »
Gypsy was a childhood pony for me, she was a second hand find at my Dad's school's fete.

Gypsy is a word in the English language which means 'free-spirited.' It's also a girl's name with the same meaning. This is also in keeping with Gypsy's character in the comics.

Words have power in context. Sometimes I think people forget that the context is as important as the word. There are words which, as an autistic person, I find unforgivable. But there are also contexts in which those words are entirely innocent. Knowing how to distinguish that is what makes language powerful.

Over here in the UK the term is used to self-identify by a lot of the people in question. I went to primary school with some of them. My Dad taught others. It's absolutely true that the word can be used in a derogatory sense - but that's the thing. Using it as a derogatory label and using it in the context of a name to express a meaning of free spirit are two different uses of the same word.

The nuance may be a British thing, but it's a British pony, so probably relevant in terms of Hasbro's decisions.

Kiwi Tart is an offensive pony name too. It could be seen as both racist and sexist if taken in a particular context. But in the actual pony's context, it's also a dessert.  It really depends on the context you choose to see.

That's why words have power. 

Some words are always offensive in every context, and should not be used. But for other words it really depends on understanding that context.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 08:55:33 AM by Taffeta »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
|夏草やつわものどもが夢の跡|

Offline applejackbunny

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Lil Cupcake Sister Pony
  • ****
  • Posts: 1012
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2021, 09:12:09 AM »
I agree with Taffeta - there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the name or word "Gypsy", at least not here in the UK.

I love her to bits! She's got such a gorgeous colour scheme and pose!  :lovey: I was very lucky to have bought her before her price shot up.
Current wish list: G1: Baby Princess Sparkle (dark purple var.), Dazzleglow (blue heart var.), Cha Cha the Llama; G3: Baby Northern Lights and Winter Ice, Pumpkin Tart Nirvanas: Any interesting Applejacks (esp. Colombian)!, Argie Tomatoberry, Sweet Tooth [/color]

Offline serena-hime

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Ouchy Roids Pony
  • **
  • Posts: 130
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2021, 10:36:53 AM »
Gypsy was a childhood pony for me, she was a second hand find at my Dad's school's fete.

Gypsy is a word in the English language which means 'free-spirited.' It's also a girl's name with the same meaning. This is also in keeping with Gypsy's character in the comics.


Over here in the UK the term is used to self-identify by a lot of the people in question. I went to primary school with some of them. My Dad taught others. It's absolutely true that the word can be used in a derogatory sense - but that's the thing. Using it as a derogatory label and using it in the context of a name to express a meaning of free spirit are two different uses of the same word.

The nuance may be a British thing, but it's a British pony, so probably relevant in terms of Hasbro's decisions.

 
Not to turn this thread into an argument, but this word is (at least contemporarily) thought to be a slur, regardless of whether or not people sometimes use it to describe a 'free spirit' or if it is sometimes used by actual Romani people, regardless of location. It's popular to use it for other reasons (as you mentioned- this is not exclusive to the UK and is sill quite common in the US), but it still originated as a descriptor for Romani people, which eventually developed into a slur and is inextricable from that origin (the use of it to describe a 'free spirit' is also a result of it's use to describe Romani people), at least not when Romani people are still oppressed.

Acknowledging it's origins is important for understanding the way it's used today, in any context.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 10:46:52 AM by serena-hime »

Online Taffeta

  • Trade Count: (+62)
  • Colombian Baby Pony
  • ******
  • Posts: 16059
  • Gender: Female
  • UK Pony, Jem and Mediaeval Japanese obsessive :D
    • View Profile
    • The My Little Pony Scrapbook
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2021, 10:49:18 AM »
Gypsy was a childhood pony for me, she was a second hand find at my Dad's school's fete.

Gypsy is a word in the English language which means 'free-spirited.' It's also a girl's name with the same meaning. This is also in keeping with Gypsy's character in the comics.


Over here in the UK the term is used to self-identify by a lot of the people in question. I went to primary school with some of them. My Dad taught others. It's absolutely true that the word can be used in a derogatory sense - but that's the thing. Using it as a derogatory label and using it in the context of a name to express a meaning of free spirit are two different uses of the same word.

The nuance may be a British thing, but it's a British pony, so probably relevant in terms of Hasbro's decisions.

 
Not to turn this thread into an argument, but this word is (at least contemporarily) thought to be a slur, regardless of whether or not people sometimes use it to describe a 'free spirit' or if it is sometimes used by actual Romani people, regardless of location. It's popular to use it for other reasons (as you mentioned- this is not exclusive to the UK and is sill quite common in the US), but it still originated as a descriptor for Romani people, which eventually developed into a slur and is inextricable from that origin (the use of it to describe a 'free spirit' is also a result of it's use to describe Romani people), at least not when Romani people are still oppressed.

Acknowledging it's origins is important for understanding the way it's used today, in any context.

I don't think anything was said about its origins, but words all have origins and there are many words in language which originate from different peoples. Phrases, such as 'beware of greeks bearing gifts' are technically slurs against the greek people, but they still exist in our language.

It's not that I'm denying the existence of a slurred usage, more that by imposing the slur as the ONLY interpretation on the word, you're feeding that meaning, rather than the other. Which, as you acknowledge, exists.

As I mentioned before, there's a word starting with r which a lot of people use far too often. I find this word very hurtful and offensive, but even though that's true, I also can tell when it's not being used in a perjorative way and has nothing to do with its other, derogatory meaning.

Being able to tell the difference is important.

As I said, Kiwi Tart is twice as offensive, in theory. But we know the context. We know it with Gypsy, too. You're choosing to make it a slur, rather than it actually being one. Just as Kiwi Tart was never intended to be insulting, either.

Of course, there's a disclaimer to this. If you or the other people in the thread complaining about the term are from the Romani people, and are personally offended, that's an entirely different matter. If that's the case then of course the discussion is different.

Otherwise, what I said before stands. You only increase hate and suspicion by being suspicious of every single possible interpretation of a word. As I said in my previous post, some words are always offensive and some are contextually offensive. This is the latter.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
|夏草やつわものどもが夢の跡|

Offline serena-hime

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Ouchy Roids Pony
  • **
  • Posts: 130
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2021, 10:52:37 AM »

It's not that I'm denying the existence of a slurred usage, more that by imposing the slur as the ONLY interpretation on the word, you're feeding that meaning, rather than the other. Which, as you acknowledge, exists.

 
Otherwise, what I said before stands. You only increase hate and suspicion by being suspicious of every single possible interpretation of a word. As I said in my previous post, some words are always offensive and some are contextually offensive. This is the latter.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this- the word is a slur, it's not ours to reclaim, and I find it positive to remove this pony from her name.

Also...um, her symbol is a tambourine (an item associated with a stereotypical image of Romani people- see Esmeralda), I would say it's quite obvious that they knew the origin of the name (even if they didn't know it's history)
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 11:00:15 AM by serena-hime »

Online Taffeta

  • Trade Count: (+62)
  • Colombian Baby Pony
  • ******
  • Posts: 16059
  • Gender: Female
  • UK Pony, Jem and Mediaeval Japanese obsessive :D
    • View Profile
    • The My Little Pony Scrapbook
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2021, 12:41:55 PM »
We can of course agree to disagree, although I am in no way condoning its use as a slur, nor denying the existence of that usage.

I do think it's important to respect different cultural perspectives. Although that also includes understanding and acknowledging the more nuanced British usage of the term.

My opinion is that probably Gypsy was a clumsy 1980s attempt at inclusion. The reason why I don't see her as offensive is because she was a very popular character and beloved. Whether you can find stereotypes in her character - maybe, but broad strokes, rather than specifically cringey moments. She likes music and dance. She doesn't have a tent and a crystal ball. As for the tambourine, well, my sister plays the tambourine too. She's a percussionist. As a kid she loved the fact Gypsy had tambourines, because when she was a kid, people didn't take percussion seriously and she dealt with a lot of issues. So for her Gypsy was validation that it was ok to play percussion.

As an autistic person I've learned and come to value that awkward attempts to reach out and include are better than being ignored completely. It at least begins a discussion, which can lead to improved awareness and education. I also say this from the standpoint of someone who has seen the r word used regularly and liberally in discussions on equality and diversity, so I know that this whole thing can be very complicated.

You are as always entitled to your opinion, and you don't have to agree with mine in the slightest. All I really wanted was to say that not all opinions have to be binary.

The one thing I do find weird, though, is that you guys still want to own her although she makes you uncomfortable. If it were me, I wouldn't want her in my collection at all.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
|夏草やつわものどもが夢の跡|

Online Carrehz

  • #1 Prizestuffer
  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Spain Piggy Pony
  • *****
  • Posts: 7035
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm gonna live forever or die trying!
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2021, 12:49:36 PM »
...*sidesteps argument*

Have her, love her! Gorgeous pony and I like her name, too, it's pretty.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(One of my particular favourite pony pics too! Well, except for those stray hairs. :p)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Online Taffeta

  • Trade Count: (+62)
  • Colombian Baby Pony
  • ******
  • Posts: 16059
  • Gender: Female
  • UK Pony, Jem and Mediaeval Japanese obsessive :D
    • View Profile
    • The My Little Pony Scrapbook
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2021, 12:52:10 PM »
...*sidesteps argument*

Have her, love her! Gorgeous pony and I like her name, too, it's pretty.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(One of my particular favourite pony pics too! Well, except for those stray hairs. :p)

I'm not sure why, but I feel like I should give you a cookie for this post. Just because. Well. This post.

Definitely time to talk about the pony.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 01:44:15 PM by Taffeta »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
|夏草やつわものどもが夢の跡|

Offline Leave a Whisper

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Colombian Baby Pony
  • ******
  • Posts: 19745
  • Gender: Female
  • In the Land of Dreams
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2021, 08:02:23 PM »
...*sidesteps argument*

Have her, love her! Gorgeous pony and I like her name, too, it's pretty.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

(One of my particular favourite pony pics too! Well, except for those stray hairs. :p)

Great picture. 
Thanks to TheRockinStallion for my Ponysona Artless

Offline serena-hime

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Ouchy Roids Pony
  • **
  • Posts: 130
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2021, 09:23:49 PM »
We can of course agree to disagree, although I am in no way condoning its use as a slur, nor denying the existence of that usage.

Well that's good, and I'd certainly never say you would!

Quote
I do think it's important to respect different cultural perspectives. Although that also includes understanding and acknowledging the more nuanced British usage of the term.

My issue with this statement is that it's also a slur in the UK still; it may have been watered down to the point where most people don't understand the history and oppression behind it, especially in places like the UK and North America, but that connotation is still there and many Romani people have been actively trying to fight against the use of it- which is why, regardless of whether or not it's used in a negative context, I think it's better not to use it at all, and I think there is little consequence in not using it in most contexts (the exception being in an educational setting, or when a term is reclaimed by the oppressed group in an effort to recontextualize)

Quote
My opinion is that probably Gypsy was a clumsy 1980s attempt at inclusion.

My assumption is mostly that it just wasn't understood to be a bad word to most people back then (and still isn't), rather it was assumed to be an innocuous, cute name for a pony. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but in a modern setting I think it would be best to acknowledge that it was a mistake to give her that name (along with other ponies like Wigwam, though I think in his case it's more a matter of the entire design instead of just the name, though I do love orange ponies lol).

Quote
The reason why I don't see her as offensive is because she was a very popular character and beloved. Whether you can find stereotypes in her character - maybe, but broad strokes, rather than specifically cringey moments. She likes music and dance. She doesn't have a tent and a crystal ball.

I personally don't think something needs to be intentionally offensive, or even portrayed as negative to be criticized.

Quote
As for the tambourine, well, my sister plays the tambourine too. She's a percussionist. As a kid she loved the fact Gypsy had tambourines, because when she was a kid, people didn't take percussion seriously and she dealt with a lot of issues. So for her Gypsy was validation that it was ok to play percussion.
That's great! I love everything about her design, and I love that ponies are so diverse that everyone can find one to relate to, but I think her name was a mistake on Hasbro's part and I think she would have been much better with a different name (like Tambourine- it even rhymes with Tangerine, so it's perfect for her lol- I actually wonder if this was intentional)

Quote
As an autistic person I've learned and come to value that awkward attempts to reach out and include are better than being ignored completely. It at least begins a discussion, which can lead to improved awareness and education.

I agree with this wholeheartedly; it's better to try to show kindness and work to learn despite the potentiality of saying the wrong thing instead of doing nothing at all- especially because those moments do open up the opportunity for education and a better understanding- like we're doing right now!

Quote
I also say this from the standpoint of someone who has seen the r word used regularly and liberally in discussions on equality and diversity, so I know that this whole thing can be very complicated.

Totally understand this, I'm a member of an often poorly understood group and frequently have to make a balance between understanding people and simultaneously wading through incorrect assumptions and term usage that is often offensive and based in oppression ( historical and contemporary), both unintentionally and otherwise.

Quote
You are as always entitled to your opinion, and you don't have to agree with mine in the slightest. All I really wanted was to say that not all opinions have to be binary.

Agreed!

Quote
The one thing I do find weird, though, is that you guys still want to own her although she makes you uncomfortable. If it were me, I wouldn't want her in my collection at all.

Personally, I love her design; one of my favorite poses, favorite color schemes and I love her little freckles. Despite that, her name does prevent me from getting her- I've turned down several so far because of her name, though I will likely still get her in the future.

A big part of loving anything is understanding and acknowledging the less positive aspects of it, it's important to criticize the things you love.


And that's all I have to say about this.  :) Back to the ponies!
« Last Edit: April 23, 2021, 09:26:06 PM by serena-hime »

Offline TheBeatlesPkmnFan42

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Rapunzel Pony
  • *****
  • Posts: 3710
  • Gender: Female
  • Can buy, but cannot sell/trade
    • View Profile
    • My Tumblr
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2021, 09:53:04 PM »
The one thing I do find weird, though, is that you guys still want to own her although she makes you uncomfortable. If it were me, I wouldn't want her in my collection at all.

I mean, I like the pony herself! As I said, I think her color scheme and symbol are really nice! It's really only her name I dislike. I like how others call her Tambourine so I like using that name for her myself! Whenever I do get her eventually (if I can find a good enough deal), I'll just call her that instead! I don't have to like a pony's name to like how the pony looks!
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Snupps|MLP Discord server|Instagram

Online Taffeta

  • Trade Count: (+62)
  • Colombian Baby Pony
  • ******
  • Posts: 16059
  • Gender: Female
  • UK Pony, Jem and Mediaeval Japanese obsessive :D
    • View Profile
    • The My Little Pony Scrapbook
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #26 on: April 24, 2021, 01:44:59 AM »
Noo, but there's a difference between personally disliking a name and considering it perjorative.

Simply changing the name doesn't change the concept of the toy, nor her appearance. Owning the pony endorses both those aspects, even if you don't accept her name.

I do understand Serena-hime's points about being able to criticise the things you love; on the other hand, that can also be used as a convenient excuse to own something which contains undertones. At the end of the day, Hasbro made profit on Gypsy. When you buy Gypsy, unless you pick her up from a second hand store, you are somehow reimbursing the money paid at the store till for the pony in its original package. The money goes back down the line until it goes back into Hasbro. So I think it probably does matter in regards to owning her. 

For reference, the organisation which represents these people in the UK can be found here:
https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/

In any case, going back to the pony, I always think the free spirited mantra fits her best. She is unique among the early unicorns. She entirely breaks the rules Hasbro US set down for early unicorns, with her freckles and her missing streak. I always felt like that uniqueness gelled really well with the meaning of her name, as well as the spirited, musical and engaging personality she presented in the comics. She was a free spirit, genuinely. And I feel like this is what Hasbro were intending. They broke with the mould laid down by the US because for some reason we didn't get the US ponies.

So that's who Gypsy is to me. And that's just my opinion, but I don't think it needs educating or changing. It's just my perspective. And that's all.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 02:12:40 AM by Taffeta »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
|夏草やつわものどもが夢の跡|

Offline Tropical_Sunset

  • Trade Count: (+86)
  • Sweet Scoops Pony w/Charm
  • *****
  • Posts: 2119
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #27 on: April 24, 2021, 06:13:19 AM »
I love her pretty, bright color. She's so unique! Want!

Offline pinkkittywinks

  • Staff
  • Trade Count: (+452)
  • MIB Licensing Show Pinkie Pie
  • *
  • Posts: 14338
  • Gender: Female
  • Princess Kittywinks
    • View Profile
    • Etsy ~ Shadow on the Moon
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #28 on: April 24, 2021, 06:56:50 AM »
Love her :)

Love pkw xxx
RedBubble Etsy Instagram Facebook

Get 10% off your order from my Etsy shop with the code MLPARENA10

Offline TheBeatlesPkmnFan42

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Rapunzel Pony
  • *****
  • Posts: 3710
  • Gender: Female
  • Can buy, but cannot sell/trade
    • View Profile
    • My Tumblr
Re: POTD 4/22/2021 Gypsy
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2021, 07:08:40 AM »
Noo, but there's a difference between personally disliking a name and considering it perjorative.

Simply changing the name doesn't change the concept of the toy, nor her appearance. Owning the pony endorses both those aspects, even if you don't accept her name.

I do understand Serena-hime's points about being able to criticise the things you love; on the other hand, that can also be used as a convenient excuse to own something which contains undertones. At the end of the day, Hasbro made profit on Gypsy. When you buy Gypsy, unless you pick her up from a second hand store, you are somehow reimbursing the money paid at the store till for the pony in its original package. The money goes back down the line until it goes back into Hasbro. So I think it probably does matter in regards to owning her.

"Somehow", "probably". It sounds like you don't even know why you're claiming what you're claiming. How is purchasing a pony from another collector who released thirty six years ago supporting Hasbro's naming decision? These ponies have been traded around between so many people at this point most of the time. Buying a pony secondhand, regardless of whether it's from a store or from a collector, in no way puts any money in Hasbro's pocket. They made that money decades ago, that's already settled in stone. It's not impossible to realize that a name of a pony is problematic and probably shouldn't be said by non-Romani people anymore in 2021, while still appreciating the color scheme and general design of the toy.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Snupps|MLP Discord server|Instagram

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal