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Author Topic: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers  (Read 66840 times)

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Offline Taffeta

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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2019, 09:26:34 AM »
I think rewatching S1 gives a different impression of Gabriel. Though I find it also hard to believe that there were a lot of people who didn't think Gabriel was Hawk Moth during S1 when it's really obvious that he is. I don't remember what episode I saw first but it was an early one, I think the one with the zoo - in any case, I didn't watch most of s1 in order as I watched whatever came on Pop when I happened to flick through channels, and it still was pretty obvious...
Spoiler
I also think that The Collector from s2 is a very clever episode from Gabriel's point of view that demonstrates he's not just a baddie but a smart guy. Although what got me about that episode was the dialogue between Adrien and Marinette - "you got proof?" and "he can't be Hawk Moth, because he's been akumatised." "And that's good news?" (And knowing that of course, he is Hawk Moth, I guess I felt a bit bad for Adrien in that moment. I felt similar in Gorizilla for Gabriel who even suspecting his son is Cat Noir, is worried about putting him in danger...The Agreste family are for me much more interesting if really messed up than Marinette's family, albeit after Weredad her Dad is clearly super embarrassing.

On this same note of Weredad, I felt really bad again for Adrien because despite having to listen to the most embarrassing Dad-speech ever...he calls the meal the most warm he's been to in a while. An overprotective over affectionate Dad - he never gets to see the side of Gabriel which worries about his safety and which occasionally freaks out when Adrien isn't where he ought to be. And yet despite that his communication skills are way better than Marinettes at times.

We've seen a hint of how Adrien might react to Hawkmoth being his father, as he was game to go investigate, no matter how bad he felt about the possibility. But I agree with whoever said above that if he knew about Emelie it might make him react differently. He might even try and get Ladybug to help...

If there is going to be a snake, it isn't in the s3 titles.

I like watching in French sometimes. My French is more rusty and less fluent than my Japanese so I still need subtitles for the details but I can about muddle through with subs and the French dialogue without losing anything from the show. Now if it were in any other language, I'd be screwed...xD.
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2019, 05:31:39 PM »
I don’t remember when I figured out that Gabriel is Hawk Moth but I think it was before the Season 2 episode that confirmed it. When Nooroo is explaining about the Miraculous right before Gabriel forced him to transform him in to Hawk Moth, Gabriel is holding a picture of Emelie.

Spoiler
I agree with you about Gabriel. He even mentioned in “Style Queen” that he knew just how to manipulate Audrey (reserving a seat for her in the 2nd row) to make her an excellent akumatized villain. 

That moment in Gorizilla was when I realized that Gabriel/Hawk Moth isn’t really evil and just how much Gabriel cares about what happens to Adrien. 

I was rewatching part of episode and right after Gabriel starts the movie and we almost see Emelie’s face the camera  goes down to the basement.

I’ve been thinking about Gabriel’s relationship with Adrien and the fact that he’s usually pretty distant and cold with Adrien and it seems only Nathalie sees when Gabriel is worried about him. Could Adrien remind him of Emelie and that’s why he’s so distant?

In “Sandboy” after Plagg tricked Adrien with the sock, Plagg told Adrien how happy he was that Adrien let him have so much freedom and Adrien replied that he knows how it feels to not have any freedom.

Adrien must feel very lonely with no one but Plagg to really talk to (unless he's at school) and his attempts to talk to/spend time with his father usually don’t work out. Even Nathalie doesn’t eat with him although she does seem a little more sensitive to Adrien’s feelings than Gabriel at times.

Maybe the book has a solution that would restore Emelie without making the wish? I wonder if the fact that Master Fu is now Adrien's Chinese tutor is significant?




I can understand when they say "I am..." in French :lol: and a few other words. 


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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2019, 03:40:52 AM »
Let's not forget the bodyguard. For all he is the strong and silent type, he also has shown moments where he cares about Adrien's well-being. And has broken the rules as well, as Adrien has persuaded the bodyguard to drive him places other than where he's meant to be. I think he's a nice guy, too - whether we will ever hear him speak, however...

Also, I don't think he is in on everything. But he might be. I just feel like he's on the outside, whereas Nathalie (who I agree, is sympathetic to a greater degree) is on the inside.
Spoiler
But I really believe Nathalie wants to marry Gabriel, and has a flash of hope about that when Gabriel finally leaves the mansion and says he's going to give up...because it's a sign that Gabriel is moving on. I don't think her hopes are self-serving, I think she genuinely wants him to be happy...but for that split second she feels like maybe there's a chance he's going to let go of Emelie and look forward. Which I can see being the ultimate answer to the problem...

Adrien definitely relies on Plagg for company. What's interesting is that Tiki is sometimes a curb on Marinette's more impulsive teen behaviour - reminding her of her duty, etc, worrying about what she's going to reveal and so on. Plagg is rarely like that, as though Adrien needs a different kind of life coach. Plagg is quite mischievous really. It also amuses me how much he teases Adrien about his love-life (or potential love-life). I don't feel like Adrien has those conversations with Nino though...

I wonder if Master Fu is permanently Adrien's Chinese master or if that was just a one off in order to get the message across under the radar. I also wonder if Master Fu is still suspicious of Gabriel. When Marinette says Gabriel can't be Hawk Moth, Fu says "That's very probable"...not "yep, let's write him off the list". And he sneaks his way into the Agreste home to speak to Adrien, even though the first time they met was outside, and he could've reasonably accosted him after or before school in a similar way. Also, he knows Adrien has a Chinese teacher...how much is he spying on this family?

Watching the Collector again, there's a big timeline gap between a young Master Fu making a mistake and losing 2 miraculous and Emelie disappearing a year or less before. And if the book is the last gift Gabriel gave Emelie, providing that is true, it suggests they went there a year earlier, found the Miraculouses and the book and something happened then. If it were earlier, then surely he'd have had other gifts in between that time, and we know its Adrien's first Christmas without Emelie, so it can't have happened that long ago. But did Emelie 'disappear' overseas and if so, that's the one aspect I could see the bodyguard being in on, as it would surely take Gabriel, Nathalie and the bodyguard to bring her back without any kind of outside fuss.

Also Gabriel goes on trips with his wife, but not with Adrien. And Adrien sounds like he doesn't really know his father that well even prior to that point, so maybe it wasn't uncommon for them to go away and leave him with Nathalie and bodyguard. Also that he probably had a closer relationship with Emelie, since he seems so caught up in her memory, but that Gabriel has always had a problem showing his son proper affection...

My French is very rusty. I can understand much more than I can speak now. And I don't know every word, but I can still generally figure things out. I did French at school from 11 until first year of uni when I was 19, and I went to a conference a year or so back which was in ENglish, Japanese and French and realised I could still understand enough French to follow the lectures. But any other dub is beyond me xD and I still need the subs for ML in French, to get all the details. But it means I'm not just focusing on the words, I have time to see the episode as well, which is nice :) And I like them speaking in French sometimes, as it feels original...and also they can pronounce akuma right more often ;)
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2019, 07:26:13 PM »
Maybe the bodyguard realizes Adrien needs more freedom than Gabriel allows and doesn’t really mind sneaking him away from time to time since he can still do his job of protecting him even if Adrien isn’t in the right place (as long as Adrien doesn’t transform in to Cat Noir or run away from him) He probably hears Adrien complaining whenever Gabriel has refused to allow Adrien to do something or go somewhere.

Spoiler
I also think Nathalie is in love with Gabriel but is holding back on expressing it because of Gabriel’s love for Emelie. I don’t thnk Gabriel realized how much he cares about Nathalie until she used the Peacock.  Nathalie is probably the person he’s closest to and he’s trusted her with most (if not all) of his secrets. I’m not sure if Nathalie knows the reason for Emelie’s current condition though or if she knew the effects the Peacock would have on her if she used it.

I think the theory that whatever happened to Emelie might have happened while she was out of the country/on the trip is a good possibility. Too many questions might have been raised if it had happened in Paris unless it happened within the walls of the mansion and Gabriel made up the disappearance story to give him time to move her in to the basement and make sure that she wouldn’t be found. Keeping up the disappearance story also makes it possible for Emelie to return.  It also gives Gabriel a reason to keep Adrien inside the mansion as much possible if it’s connected to the trip he and Emelie took together. If the bodyguard was involved maybe Nathalie and Gabriel convinced him that Emelie was just really sick and needed better medical care than could be provided on the trip, but then he would know that she didn't disappear. I do think Nathalie helped Gabriel hide Emelie in the basement and was there when Gabriel made his promise to her

Could  Emelie have bought the Miraculous and the book and gave Gabriel the book, intending to give him the Butterfly also and kept the Peacock for herself?

Maybe Master Fu is keeping a close watch on Gabriel and Adrien without trying to raise Gabriel's suspisions and hoping he finds out if Gabriel is Hawk Moth and has the Peacock?

I also think Adrien would react differently if he knew about his mother and would seek help from Ladybug, Master Fu and Plagg.

I think it’s interesting that the magic potion cheeses and macaroons (the ones that give the Kwamis extra powers) can only be used one time and then the Kwamis have to use another one to power up again.


I like Plagg and Adrien’s interactions. :) I think Adrien feels he can truly be himself with Plagg and Plagg feels the same way.


Another thing I've been wondering about is how Hawk Moth is able to stay transformed for long stretches of time without changing back to Gabriel after using his power.



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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2019, 05:29:57 AM »
I've been thinking a bit about Gabriel's relationship with Nooroo and that whole aspect as well.
Spoiler
We don't see him fuel Nooroo, although he must I guess at some point...unless this is a trait of the specific Ladybug and CN miraculouses because they seem to be special and thus their power must be limited in the hands of humans. We haven't I don't think seen any of the others need/be fuelled in that way.

So Gabriel and Nooroo. To begin with it really seems like Nooroo is bullied and Fu and the others seem to think that Nooroo is forced into the partnership, but there are odd moments where I don't think that's the case. He is controlled, like Adrien, in a sense - but I also feel like Nooroo feels its his duty to watch over Gabriel as well. There's that moment in the Collector where he temporarily renounces Nooroo and Nooroo seems quite surprised. Then when he brings Nooroo out again, Gabriel asks, "did you miss me?" and Nooroo is all, "At your service, master." It doesn't seem quite the bullying relationship that you might expect. I also think the white butterflies are important, and maybe the core of the real power. I really feel like the Papillon is meant to resolve problems and this is being hijacked - because ultimately the problems do get resolved. I feel like Nooroo's core power is to help people find the strength/power to resolve their own problems. And maybe Nooroo is sticking with Gabriel because as yet he hasn't helped Gabriel fix HIS problem. Nooroo seems sympathetic to Gabriel - but it may also connect to the peacock and some knowledge of that. I think there's that one episode where it's Nooroo's birthday and he seems like he might slip out but then he doesn't and Gabriel doesn't let him which suggests control  -but I wonder how much Nooroo could fight back if he really wanted to. He does sometimes question Gabriel's actions - but he still participates in them. I dunno. That bond really interests me. I would rather know more about Nooroo than see cameo appearances from Rena Rouge, Queen Bee and whatever it is Nino calls himself, can't remember. I get that's the kid show hero bit of it - but I still feel like its a bit low-key, they have to give the miraculouses back, and they all know some part of each other's secrets re their identities and Marinette basically just gives them to her friends anyway. So that's less interesting to me than figuring out how Nooroo ended up with Gabriel and why.

We don't know why the two miraculous disappeared the day Master Fu made a mistake. We don't know if they disappeared in a disaster or if they were stolen or what happened. We don't know what destroyed the place, either. We don't know any of these things. Also we don't know if Master Fu used a miraculous he shouldn't have done in this process...lots of questions here that need answering.
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2019, 09:00:02 AM »
Speculating in spoiler.
Spoiler
One thought that I keep having is that Gabriel or Emilie was gifted the butterfly or peafowl miraculous, and then the other went to steal it. If two were stolen that day, then that seems to me as if Emilie was still alive at that point. If there was a general timeline given, I don't remember it? So this could have been before Adrien's birth? But then why wouldn't Fu have given the Ladybug/Cat miraculi out sooner? Unless he was waiting for news of the miraculous to be used to keep them a secret...But then why would the miraculous have been gifted in the first place? Doesn't make a lot of sense but it keeps nagging at me because of the Peafowl being dangerous, which would have killed the miraculous user/put her in comatose state.
Because butterflies are part of the Agreste brand, at least somewhat subtle-y, if we are to assume that they have BEEN in the mansion and such then he has had the miraculous for a while, before he became hawk moth.
Also lol, hawk/peacock moth/butterfly. I see...
 
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2019, 12:35:49 PM »
Something I've been thinking about is if all of the Miraculous are meant to ideally work in pairs like the Ladybug and Cat Noir ones do.

I've been thinking a bit about Gabriel's relationship with Nooroo and that whole aspect as well.
Spoiler
We don't see him fuel Nooroo, although he must I guess at some point...unless this is a trait of the specific Ladybug and CN miraculouses because they seem to be special and thus their power must be limited in the hands of humans. We haven't I don't think seen any of the others need/be fuelled in that way.

So Gabriel and Nooroo. To begin with it really seems like Nooroo is bullied and Fu and the others seem to think that Nooroo is forced into the partnership, but there are odd moments where I don't think that's the case. He is controlled, like Adrien, in a sense - but I also feel like Nooroo feels its his duty to watch over Gabriel as well. There's that moment in the Collector where he temporarily renounces Nooroo and Nooroo seems quite surprised. Then when he brings Nooroo out again, Gabriel asks, "did you miss me?" and Nooroo is all, "At your service, master." It doesn't seem quite the bullying relationship that you might expect. I also think the white butterflies are important, and maybe the core of the real power. I really feel like the Papillon is meant to resolve problems and this is being hijacked - because ultimately the problems do get resolved. I feel like Nooroo's core power is to help people find the strength/power to resolve their own problems. And maybe Nooroo is sticking with Gabriel because as yet he hasn't helped Gabriel fix HIS problem. Nooroo seems sympathetic to Gabriel - but it may also connect to the peacock and some knowledge of that. I think there's that one episode where it's Nooroo's birthday and he seems like he might slip out but then he doesn't and Gabriel doesn't let him which suggests control  -but I wonder how much Nooroo could fight back if he really wanted to. He does sometimes question Gabriel's actions - but he still participates in them. I dunno. That bond really interests me. I would rather know more about Nooroo than see cameo appearances from Rena Rouge, Queen Bee and whatever it is Nino calls himself, can't remember. I get that's the kid show hero bit of it - but I still feel like its a bit low-key, they have to give the miraculouses back, and they all know some part of each other's secrets re their identities and Marinette basically just gives them to her friends anyway. So that's less interesting to me than figuring out how Nooroo ended up with Gabriel and why.

We don't know why the two miraculous disappeared the day Master Fu made a mistake. We don't know if they disappeared in a disaster or if they were stolen or what happened. We don't know what destroyed the place, either. We don't know any of these things. Also we don't know if Master Fu used a miraculous he shouldn't have done in this process...lots of questions here that need answering.


Spoiler
That's a good point about never seeing Nooroo being fed. I assume Gabriel feeds him but as you said we've never seen any of the other Kwamis besides Tiki and Plagg need food to be able to use their power.

I think Gabriel wants to make sure Nooroo knows that he can be a cruel master if he so chooses . I wonder if Gabriel's relationship with Nooroo is similar to the one between him and Adrien in that Gabriel cares and provides for Nooroo but  becomes angry when his rules are broken and sometimes overreacts with a harsh punishment

I agree that Nooroo is reluctant to leave Gabriel in such a state when he's so consumed by the loss of Emelie and wants to help him. I think Master Fu, Ladybug and Cat Noir only see the evil side of Hawk Moth but Nooroo knows the kind of man that Gabriel used to be before Emelie's "disappearance"


I also agree with you about the way the other Miraculous are handed out by Marinette. I don't mind Ladybug and Cat Noir needing some extra help every once in a while but it bothered me that she was going to give the Bee to Alya after just giving her the Fox a few episodes before as it seems a Miraculous holder should only be able to use one Miraculous.


I agree. Season 2 leaves so many questions unanswered. Based on how most of the major plot twists weren’t revealed until the end of Season 2 I’m afraid we’ll have to wait several season 3 episodes to find out more.

Speculating in spoiler.
Spoiler
One thought that I keep having is that Gabriel or Emilie was gifted the butterfly or peafowl miraculous, and then the other went to steal it. If two were stolen that day, then that seems to me as if Emilie was still alive at that point. If there was a general timeline given, I don't remember it? So this could have been before Adrien's birth? But then why wouldn't Fu have given the Ladybug/Cat miraculi out sooner? Unless he was waiting for news of the miraculous to be used to keep them a secret...But then why would the miraculous have been gifted in the first place? Doesn't make a lot of sense but it keeps nagging at me because of the Peafowl being dangerous, which would have killed the miraculous user/put her in comatose state.
Because butterflies are part of the Agreste brand, at least somewhat subtle-y, if we are to assume that they have BEEN in the mansion and such then he has had the miraculous for a while, before he became hawk moth.
Also lol, hawk/peacock moth/butterfly. I see...
 


Spoiler
I don't think Emelie and Gabriel were involved with the Butterfly and Peacock originally being lost or stolen. When Master Fu is telling the story he says he was young and he also says that he is almost 200 years old. 

I think Emelie found the Butterfly and gave it to Gabriel as a gift though. Whenever Gabriel removes it and puts it back in the box, it looks a standard necklace/jewerly box and not the smaller Miraculous gift box that we've seen the other Miraculous items in. Also could there be another Guardian other than Master Fu that really caused the Miraculous to be lost and Master Fu got the blame?


One thing I haven't quite figured out is if Nathalie was able to use the Peacock when she was still akumatized as Catalyst. That scene goes by so quickly it's hard to tell if she changed back to normal before becoming Mayura. If she was able to transform while she was akumatized maybe the Peacock reacts/only works in response to negative emotions and that's part of the reason it drains its user.   

If Nathalie keeps using the Peacock to transform in to Mayura, won't she eventually suffer the same fate as Emelie?



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« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 01:20:27 PM by Ponyfan »
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2019, 02:43:32 PM »
I wish that Netflix would hurry up and put s2 on for the UK as well. Because Disney have the first rights its going to take a while but it's annoying while I'm in London and want to go check something in an episode because I have to youtube hunt for it. My digital box I can't access here, so bleh. But yeah, I remember
Spoiler
Master Fu being young as well, when he made his 'mistake'.
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2019, 04:55:51 AM »


Season 3
Spoiler


I'm not sure if it's confirmed but I saw that there may be a Season 3 episode where Hawk Moth akumatizes Cat Noir




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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2019, 05:25:02 AM »



Season 3
Spoiler


I'm not sure if it's confirmed but I saw that there may be a Season 3 episode where Hawk Moth akumatizes Cat Noir




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I do hope so...
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2019, 03:29:14 PM »



Season 3
Spoiler


I'm not sure if it's confirmed but I saw that there may be a Season 3 episode where Hawk Moth akumatizes Cat Noir




Ponyfan
I do hope so...

Spoiler
I do too. I think it might be really interesting if it does happen.




Spoiler
I've been wondering if there's a greater connection to the Agreste family with the Miraculous than we are aware of. Maybe the Agrestes are descendants of some of the ancient holders. It seems too big of a coincidence that the family holds 3 Miraculous even if Emelie and Gabriel aren't the rightful holders.   


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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2019, 03:34:24 PM »



Season 3
Spoiler


I'm not sure if it's confirmed but I saw that there may be a Season 3 episode where Hawk Moth akumatizes Cat Noir




Ponyfan
I do hope so...

Spoiler
I do too. I think it might be really interesting if it does happen.



It would seem to me to be a perfect opportunity
Spoiler
for an identity reveal.
I have thought about this for a while, whether I want them to find out about each other at the same time or one first then the other. I think one at a time would be more interesting, but the big question is who should know first...

I actually also want to see Ladybug akumatised. But I know this is a plot issue with the fact she's the only one that can get rid of the akuma. Unless there's another way that could be worked in, because I find it really difficult to buy the fact that
Spoiler
Marinette is not enough in control of her feelings to stop from spouting off at Lila or Chloe but is in enough control to ward off an akuma when it's right there in front of her...
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2019, 05:35:58 PM »



Season 3
Spoiler


I'm not sure if it's confirmed but I saw that there may be a Season 3 episode where Hawk Moth akumatizes Cat Noir




Ponyfan
I do hope so...

Spoiler
I do too. I think it might be really interesting if it does happen.



It would seem to me to be a perfect opportunity
Spoiler
for an identity reveal.
I have thought about this for a while, whether I want them to find out about each other at the same time or one first then the other. I think one at a time would be more interesting, but the big question is who should know first...

I actually also want to see Ladybug akumatised. But I know this is a plot issue with the fact she's the only one that can get rid of the akuma. Unless there's another way that could be worked in, because I find it really difficult to buy the fact that
Spoiler
Marinette is not enough in control of her feelings to stop from spouting off at Lila or Chloe but is in enough control to ward off an akuma when it's right there in front of her...


Spoiler

I think they’d be an even better team if they knew each other’s idenities and since Queen Wasp changed back in to Chole instead of Queen Bee I think an akumatized Cat Noir would turn back in to Adrien. It makes sense that Hawk Moth would target Cat Noir not realizing he’s Adrien.

I’d like to see one of them akumatized too. We’ve seen evil illusions and copies but not how they’d actually behave if they were akumatized and I think we’d see some more of Cat Noir’s anger at Ladybug’s rejections of his romantic declarations.


Spoiler
The akuma scene with Marinette was a pretty big let down and seems to be in the script just to show Lila’s willing to let herself be akumatized. The fake Adrien really got me. It was so obvious that it wasn’t Adrien and it took Ladybug a long time to figure it out.


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« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 05:51:00 PM by Ponyfan »
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Offline Ponyfan

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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2019, 01:00:14 PM »
Rewatching Season 1 has made me think about a few things. If Tiki is over 5,000 years old and Nooroo is only 3,500 years old it makes me wonder if the Miraculous were initially created when there was a problem that only someone using the Miraculous could solve.

Watching Adrien almost give himself away to Gabriel in "Simon Says" when Cat Noir knows exactly how to engage the defense system of the Agreste mansion was pretty funny. :lol:


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« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 01:09:58 PM by Ponyfan »
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Re: Miraculous Ladybug: Tales of Ladybug and Cat Noir Contains spoilers
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2019, 01:31:40 PM »
Rewatching Season 1 has made me think about a few things. If Tiki is over 5,000 years old and Nooroo is only 3,500 years old it makes me wonder if the Miraculous were initially created when there was a problem that only someone using the Miraculous could solve.

Watching Adrien almost give himself away to Gabriel in "Simon Says" when Cat Noir knows exactly how to engage the defense system of the Agreste mansion was pretty funny. :lol:


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Well, he almost calls Gabriel father in the Collector as well...;)

And he almost gives himself away to Ladybug in I think Gorizilla when he calls her milady...something Chat Noir calls her.

But cartoon characters are often dense ;) especially in superhero secret identity contexts :D

I can't remember how old Plagg is but I am sure Tiki is older. Which would make creation older than destruction...

The Kwami are still hugely mysterious.
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