Pony Talk > Pony Corral
Unpopular Pony Opinions
MJNSEIFER:
In regards to pegasi flying due to magic... yeah, that's something that doesn't really feel completely right in my opinion either. I'm actually starting to feel that maybe it should have just been their "super" flying that was caused by magic - like their ability to go unbelievably fast with specifically colored streak as they do, and just have their normal flight be a physical thing? Like, the overall speed even with their "super" flying can still have a physical side to it, like what determines which pegasi are faster than others, but I'm starting to think that it (and weather manipulation) should be what "Pegasus Magic" is and they should be ably to fly normally, providing they've learned to do so, via physical means.
Regarding cutie marks: I've honestly never felt that cutie marks in G4 outright decided what you did in life or what your job was or anything. I always felt the show made it clear that a pony could have multiple talents and the cutie mark was just what they're personally good at, and I personally only felt it directly dictated a pony's life if they chose for it to do (or they were a main character whose cutie mark was tied into the big storyline things they've been "chosen" to do) and they ultimately had other options.
I don't think a pony would be driven away from a job just because they had the wrong cutie mark - they'd at least be asked to prove if one of their other talents is whatever the job entails. I think the fact that some of them have obvious job related ones may just be laziness on the creators' parts (a laziness that I'll probably succumb to as well), like "Oh, I need to create a firefighter pony for one scene... okay, the pony needs a cutie mark, don't they? Um... well, they're a firefighter, and I don't think I'm ever going to give them a full backstory, so... yeah, the cutie mark can be a hose or something... okay, next scene."
I've also never personally had any reason to believe that a pony would get a cutie mark they completely don't want, be it connected to their job or not, as you'd need to enjoy something at least a decent amount if it was your "special talent" otherwise your heart wouldn't be in it.
I do have a sort of headcanon about the controlling of natural things (mainly the weather and the plants growing, but it could be extended to the raising of the sun and moon), but it's not fully formed, and it probably won't work in my project either (though it does "explain" something about G5 a little...) it's kind of a copout though, so don't get too excited. ;)
I have to throw in my unpopular opinion that the Royal Sisters are not immortal though (but as there's no right way to view MLP I respect if people want to view them as such - the show have proven they are not, but the show is only one version of MLP and the ultimate version is the one we as individuals choose to see.)
I respect it if people view these things differently, but that is my personal view - I know that I am particularly defensive over cutie marks, so I hope I don't come across like I'm forcing my views on others, as I'm sure it has come across before.
Taffeta:
I am not going to pretend like I have as good a knowledge of G4 as you do, MJSNEIFER, so everything I'm about to say is couched in the disclaimer that this is my impression from the two and a halfish seasons plus odd episodes I have seen of FIM.
I would more associate the CM problem to a class system hierarchy. I don't know how rigid they are, but they are permanent and my impression was that they were a key coming of age event (given the young one and all the flap about them not having them yet). It's almost like they are anticipating them to give them some direction in life. It may be more nuanced but my overall impression (see above disclaimer) is that FIM is a bit bad at joining the dots with their ideas to add nuances. So the nuances are for people to intuit, but they're not canonically explained. And that's where the issues are. It's probably true that BG characters are shoehorned into symbol related jobs - in fairness, MLP Tales also did this at times, I can't say otherwise. The difference is that G1 didn't make a thing about 'getting your rump marking', so the fact that someone might have had a symbol that related to their name/job/interests was kind of just an incidental random thing that happened.
Whether the concept is the problem or the fact FIM doesn't seem to really explain it in a nuanced way I'm not sure. But I just don't really like it.
The race issue in FIM for me is another one completely, it's to do with ponies/other species, as I've mentioned before, Colonialism 101 and the like. Imposing friendship culture on other cultures as 'the best way' is kind of tone deaf, especially in the world we currently inhabit. I didn't like that (speaking as a British person from a nation with a horribly bloody history of colonising the world.)
Again I think this is partly because FIM doesn't explain things well, and broad strokes the idea of friendship being the answer to everything (it's not) and the ponies being great ambassadors of friendship (they're not) instead of recognising where maybe that narrative doesn't fit. Twilight especially, as she is not qualified to be the Princess of Friendship. None of them are, but especially not her. (I mean, Twilight and the pirates in the movie...just...no.).
I like the idea of the magic with pegasus ponies being superspeed and somersaults, although the G1 person inside of me also feels that invalidates Firefly and Whizzer's natural talents. But honestly I'm really sad G5 didn't give magic to earth ponies. It's a UK-centric G1 opinion but it has always felt odd to me that earth ponies haven't been given magic since G1. The most magical pony in G1, according to UK lore, was an Earth Pony. It's a shame this didn't happen in the US lore, because Sunny could have been that pony without having to change her species to conform to type. (Still hope that isn't meant to be permanent, but anyway).
I never really thought about the role of the Princesses, Luna and Celestia. I kind of saw them as quasi-deity figures, rather than dictatorial leaders. But I don't know whether growing up in a state with a monarchy means I have a different view towards the idea of an unelected head of state. But that could become a political discussion, so I'll leave that there. In essence ,I don't know if they are immortal (if they are, then they'd need to be in G5), but I don't see their role as a problem as regards the sun, moon etc. I like less the idea they have a court in equestria and integrate with the ponies and then make Twilight a princess, because for me that blurs the lines of what we're meant to see them as. But that's a different problem.
brightberry:
As a kid, I didn't believe that the pegasis ponies could fly without magic. G1 ponies are just too big for those tiny wings. It didn't have to be friendship magic, just regular magic. But my "canon" was based off the stories on the backcards where the elements, plants and animals could all talk and mountains turned into ice cream. So... no rules whatsoever aside from "it's magic, don't ask questions"
MJNSEIFER:
To Taffeta, I am sorry I took so long to respond to this.
--- Quote ---I am not going to pretend like I have as good a knowledge of G4 as you do, MJSNEIFER, so everything I'm about to say is couched in the disclaimer that this is my impression from the two and a halfish seasons plus odd episodes I have seen of FIM.
--- End quote ---
Understandable.
--- Quote ---I would more associate the CM problem to a class system hierarchy. I don't know how rigid they are, but they are permanent and my impression was that they were a key coming of age event (given the young one and all the flap about them not having them yet). It's almost like they are anticipating them to give them some direction in life.
--- End quote ---
I'm not really an expert on class systems, but in my personal headcanon, cutie marks are not a “coming of age event” - they are something that can happen at any age, the same way you can discover what your passion/talent/purpose is at any age in real life. I have seen opinions of it being this, but that is not my personal headcanon, and I personally view it as being comparable to realising what you want to do in life, but more “magical” and “children's fantasy” than just thinking “Oh hey, I really seem to enjoy writing, don't I?” or something.
I do agree with it being treated, at least by some ponies, as being something to “give them some direction in life”, but mainly in the same way that a human might not know what to do with their lives if they not only haven't clicked what they're good at, but also what they enjoy doing above all else – I know it's not always as simple as that in real life, but from a children's story perspective, it makes sense that the thing you're best at is also the thing you love doing the most (or one of them) so a lot of the time, it would make sense to me that cutie mark talents are usually what ponies want to do, as well as what they are good at doing and this is the “fantasy” version of them realizing that.
Yes, it is allowed to be a “destiny” thing in my headcanon/writing, but that's if we're dealing with an important character who is supposed to be at the center of whatever the big storyline is or something. It's like how I do feel that the Mane Six's cutie marks were at least somewhat destiny, but it's because I feel like their friendship and their connection to the Elements of Harmony was too, and they are all connected in my headcanon/writing.
--- Quote ---It may be more nuanced but my overall impression (see above disclaimer) is that FIM is a bit bad at joining the dots with their ideas to add nuances. So the nuances are for people to intuit, but they're not canonically explained. And that's where the issues are.
--- End quote ---
Again understandable – I'll have to check on how I feel about FiM “joining the dots”, but there is a part of me that feels you're right about this be it on cutie marks or other things. It doesn't matter too much to me, as we are able to fill in these gaps anyway (which at the end of the day makes our own interpretations of cutie marks equally “right”, even if I am somewhat protective of the storyline – so, fair enough.) The thing is, as I'm sure someone (possibly you, sorry if it wasn't) said, MLP is a toyline franchise, which ultimately means that you are supposed to create your own stories with it, be it playing with toys or (which wasn't exactly intended, I know) writing about it – the canon versions are ultimately a guideline of how to tell the story, and we are “allowed” to include as much canon material as we like (which could even be no canon at all, it's our choice.) It is also worth noting (as I'm sure you know) that most, if not all, generations usually have at least two canon versions anyway, and G4 is no exception, so at the end of the day, canon is a guideline if anything in My Little Pony and we are free to take as much or as little as we wanted of it in our storylines/play time.
So because of that, I don't mind too much if things aren't explained, because I can just go with my interpretation of it if it fits in to what I'm doing (and if I don't like the actual explanations, or they don't fit in to what I'm doing, I can still go with my version – and so can everyone else with their versions.)
It's probably true that BG characters are shoehorned into symbol related jobs - in fairness, MLP Tales also did this at times, I can't say otherwise. The difference is that G1 didn't make a thing about 'getting your rump marking', so the fact that someone might have had a symbol that related to their name/job/interests was kind of just an incidental random thing that happened.
True, but not too much of a difference for me, as the only real difference for me is that G4 is the first generation where they're actually earned. I think Tales did deliberately match the symbols with the ponies jobs/interests, but in a different way – the 7 Pony Friends were at times given interests/talents based on their symbols (as were other G1, and other pre-G4 ponies, and not just in the show) so the only real difference is that G4 (and presumably G4.5 and G5) they aren't born with them, and it's specifically talents (in pre-G4, if they mean anything, it could be anything from their job or interest to just matching their name, or even being a random symbol – both of which can also happen in G4, but with the idea that they somehow match the pony's talent as well... just not in an obvious “face value” way.)
A lot of the time, even in G4 it's probably just “What goes with this pony?”, though G4 could have had moments where they knew what the talent was going to be, so built the cutie mark around that, but may depend if they even knew if that pony was even going to be in the show? I think they knew the Mane Six would be in the show, obviously, but even their cutie marks could have been designed first, and had their origins, or at least how they connect to the talent the ponies have been given, later on in development.
--- Quote ---Whether the concept is the problem or the fact FIM doesn't seem to really explain it in a nuanced way I'm not sure. But I just don't really like it.
--- End quote ---
For me personally, it's nuanced enough, but I respect it if you, or anyone else doesn't like the concept.
--- Quote ---The race issue in FIM for me is another one completely, it's to do with ponies/other species, as I've mentioned before, Colonialism 101 and the like. Imposing friendship culture on other cultures as 'the best way' is kind of tone deaf, especially in the world we currently inhabit. I didn't like that (speaking as a British person from a nation with a horribly bloody history of colonising the world.)
Again I think this is partly because FIM doesn't explain things well, and broad strokes the idea of friendship being the answer to everything (it's not) and the ponies being great ambassadors of friendship (they're not) instead of recognising where maybe that narrative doesn't fit. Twilight especially, as she is not qualified to be the Princess of Friendship. None of them are, but especially not her. (I mean, Twilight and the pirates in the movie...just...no.).
--- End quote ---
I'm not an expert on history, or even how “the world we currently inhabit” links to this (no offence) but I do get what you mean at least to some extent about the ponies essentially forcing their ideals on others. I remember seeing someone (again, could have been you, sorry if it wasn't) talking about this before, and I do agree that it's not really a good way of doing things – I'm sure it's not meant to come across that way, and obviously friendship needs to be shown as important as it's the theme of the show, but I get you mean about the ponies forcing their way of life on others, and as such this may be one of the aspects of the show, I will choose not to use, at least not in this way (“Friendship is Magic” will still be a theme, though.) I'm also not particularly sure of the idea that ponies are the only (sentient) species that correctly “understand” friendship and other species need it to be explained to them.
I also get what you mean about friendship not always being the answer, and maybe they could have emphasised its importance without making it seem like the answer to everything, but from a children's show perspective I can at least sort of see why it's done this way, while at the same time seeing why it isn't always a good message, as not everything can be fixed with friendship (apparently, there was supposed to be less redeemed characters than there ended up being), but I understand why they'd give us (or more rather, the target audience) that dream like idea that it could be – I'm sure even at that age they know deep down that it's not true (and if they don't they will at some point), but it's nice believing that a place exists where it is true... even if it's a made up place in a cartoon.
So it can go either way for me, but I do see the flaws in the way it's done, at least in parts of it.
As with the “ambassadors of friendship” thing, I think maybe it's due to the writers giving the Mane Six too much too soon. It makes sense to at least make the sort of “spokes ponies” for friendship, as it's the Princess of Friendship and her friends, but have it so it's clear they're just starting out, and learning themselves – although I'm ultimately glad we got the School of Friendship despite how silly the idea was (don't the Mane Six have lives of their own?) as I still liked the Student Six/Young Six, it might have been better to have just stopped with the Cutie Map and have that be what is used for promoting friendship (as best as it can be done) for the entire show, with other type of episodes happening as well. The Mane Six aren't ambassadors of friendship yet, as they're still young, and still learning about friendship themselves, but show enough hints that maybe one day they could be – in the future, when the show is ending.
The same goes with Twilight herself, I can see how she has potential, and would (and in places does) make a great Princess of Friendship, in my opinion, but the show is set while she's still learning, and at times maybe gives her too much too soon, but it makes sense, in my opinion, to imagine that she is better at it in the future, at the end of it all. Maybe the show seems unsure how to develop the characters or even if they need development at all – the newer episodes seemed to have the characters going through friendship lessons that, even on a bad day, they wouldn't really need to learn by now, so maybe they were just unsure how experienced Twilight was supposed to be?
(I need to check what happened with the pirates.)
--- Quote ---I like the idea of the magic with pegasus ponies being superspeed and somersaults, although the G1 person inside of me also feels that invalidates Firefly and Whizzer's natural talents.
--- End quote ---
Thank you. I never mentioned somersaults though, no offence (and there's no way I'd intentionally invalidate anything relating to the first pony I ever liked – which is Firefly in case you don't know and/or are interested.)
--- Quote ---But honestly I'm really sad G5 didn't give magic to earth ponies. It's a UK-centric G1 opinion but it has always felt odd to me that earth ponies haven't been given magic since G1
--- End quote ---
Maybe G5 did, and we haven't seen it yet? Also the G4 earth ponies (which are essentially the G5 ponies too) were supposed to have some magic attached, but I don't really know if they followed through with it – they were supposed to a) have a deeper connection to the earth, like with the plants and flowers, but I don't know if they ever really followed through with that (though, Applejack is a farmer, I suppose...) and I've at least heard that they're supposed to be stronger than other ponies, which not only doesn't make exact sense (are all earth ponies automatically strong? Can a non-earth pony never be stronger than an earth pony no matter how hard they exercise?) the only time I've really seen this portrayed, is with earth ponies who, due to their lifestyle, would be strong anyway – even my friend and I appear to have fallen into this trap with our fanseries; the strongest pony of our Mane Cast is indeed an earth pony, but is job and talent would cause him to get stronger anyway (in one episode, my friend outright said that at least some of his strength came from his job.) So, yeah FiM didn't really do that well with what earth ponies powers/magic even is, so maybe G5 will either expand on it, or create it's own ideas.
--- Quote ---It's a UK-centric G1 opinion but it has always felt odd to me that earth ponies haven't been given magic since G1. The most magical pony in G1, according to UK lore, was an Earth Pony. It's a shame this didn't happen in the US lore, because Sunny could have been that pony without having to change her species to conform to type. (Still hope that isn't meant to be permanent, but anyway).
--- End quote ---
Wait, who was this G1 Earth Pony? I'm genuinely interested in hearing this, admittedly just in case it inspires me, but I'm also curious in general. It is possible that what happened to Sunny in G5 was meant to be a kind of power up than a species change – like she does that when she needs to, or something, but we'll have to see. It would be interesting to have a version of MLP where earth ponies do have more magic (again) I'm sure, so we'll have to just see what happens (and/or create our own if we get the inspiration to do so.)
--- Quote ---I never really thought about the role of the Princesses, Luna and Celestia. I kind of saw them as quasi-deity figures, rather than dictatorial leaders. But I don't know whether growing up in a state with a monarchy means I have a different view towards the idea of an unelected head of state. But that could become a political discussion, so I'll leave that there. In essence ,I don't know if they are immortal (if they are, then they'd need to be in G5), but I don't see their role as a problem as regards the sun, moon etc. I like less the idea they have a court in equestria and integrate with the ponies and then make Twilight a princess, because for me that blurs the lines of what we're meant to see them as. But that's a different problem.
--- End quote ---
Ultimately the idea of whether they are immortal or not, can call under headcanon – it's how you choose to view them. I personally don't think they are, but they are able to live for a long time in their current state (in my headcanon it's the “flowing mane” alicorns that live for centuries) but they are capable of dying, like from an injury or something (which is implied, I felt, during the Season 4 premiere.) I actually have a headcanon that they give up their longevity (or immortality if that is what they have) once they retire, and that there has even been other sun and moon alicorns before Celestia and Luna.
I also have a headcanon that princess/prince has more than one meaning in Equestria; a pony can be a princess/prince of an actual place (in the Royal Sisters' case, it's Equestria itself), but achieving alicorn status, they can also be a princess/prince of “something” like the sun/moon or something like love and friendship, and who knows what else? Obviously they can also be a princess/prince due to marriage and I guess family as well?
Again, I'm sorry I took so long to respond to this, and hope it's okay to do so.
Leave a Whisper:
I will not be happy if they give the G5 boys facial hair on the toys. Its so ugly. And some of them have such nice color schemes.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version