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Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: glitterball on August 12, 2018, 07:25:26 PM

Title: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 12, 2018, 07:25:26 PM
Hello!

Quick question -

has anyone made a digital graphic of the original name cards for this playset, i.e. ones that could be printed to replace lost ones?

I saw a photo of some original cards on MLW, but I am after something more crisp  ;)

Thanks in advance!  :rainbow:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 12, 2018, 07:31:53 PM
Wow, this is a GREAT idea!  I have the US name cards (the Collector ponies + Lemon Drop + Peachy) somewhere . . . but where??  If I find the box I'll definitely scan them in!

Would also love to see scans of the namecards from other countries!
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 12, 2018, 07:43:16 PM
Thanks, LM,
I think it would help a lot of folks who would like to display their Parlour to its full potential!  :biggrin:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 12, 2018, 07:44:22 PM
What about the ones from Snuzzle's parlour?
I have most of those back home. My scanner and my ponies are not in the same place at present, but it might be doable if wanted...

Sunburst and Gusty and Sky Rocket, "Storm" etc..?

I have a lot of the tabs (in English) in varying condition from various UK releases of the Peachy and Snuzzle (blue) parlour releases but I don't have the one for Kiss Curl's parlour (just says Grooming Parlour). I don't think.

Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 12, 2018, 07:48:29 PM
Oh yes, the more name cards, the merrier!
It would be awesome to get all these scanned!  :thumb:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: toyjunky on August 12, 2018, 10:09:56 PM
I agree, scanned cards would be great. I still have not been able to find my missing ones.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Baby Sugarberry on August 12, 2018, 11:44:47 PM
Best bet would probably be to recreate them as an SVG file.  G1 used a modified version of the De Vinne font, possibly a few others?

De Vinne Ornament Regular is what I used for my avatar image's rainbow logo.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 13, 2018, 05:30:53 AM
Oh wow, Baby Sugarberry,

//De Vinne Ornament Regular//  font is perfect!

I can have a little play when I get a few free moments! Thank you!  :frolic:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: NightGliderSA on August 13, 2018, 07:58:27 AM
This would be just so amazing, what a great idea! I have no name cards for my parlour and would love to be able to print some  :biggrin:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 13, 2018, 01:50:25 PM
I'd love to see the UK nametags scanned in!

I also think it would be fun to make some nametags for ponies who never got them, like the TAF ponies and Twinkle-Eyes!
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 13, 2018, 02:22:17 PM
Well, Sky Rocket has one. Speedy might as well...can't remember right now...

Edit - according to my notes she does.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on August 13, 2018, 02:36:18 PM
If there's a picture of them somewhere, we could recreate them in photoshop or something.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 13, 2018, 02:47:59 PM
I run a printing company, generally as long as a file is vector and not raster you're going to have less trouble if someone is printing it for you.

obviously some things are going to be raster, like photos - but anything font related or even say pony symbol related those can be vector.

I actually prefer EPS files, just because I use a number of different programs.

Vector files also make it easier if something has to be adjusted for printing.

Just like when these were originally printed, a printing company isn't going to print 1 of these out at a time. They'd print bunches of them on larger sheets and then cut them after. This is the same thing I do and I have a huge cutter. So say, business cards or tickets or whatever I'm printing that is a smaller size. They're printed by however many fit on the page, and then the stack is cut after printing.

So if someone else is printing for you, you'll want to design the whole page.

And reason vector is better, if something is not lined up quite right, the printer can go in and adjust to make sure nothing is cut off or missing once items are printed.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Khoufu on August 13, 2018, 02:53:02 PM
If anyone has the appropriate font/program and can host a bunch on a Google drive or something, it'd be awesome if they could have a request list and make some that people want. (Big Brothers, please.)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 13, 2018, 03:48:42 PM
just playing around with what I remember but they're something like this aren't they?

Sorry size and style is not exact, it's just something I whipped up really quick from what I remember them looking like.

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Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on August 13, 2018, 04:22:24 PM
Here's pics of the old tags in the US release.
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It looks like that font you have is very close to identical, just a few letters have different styles.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Khoufu on August 13, 2018, 04:24:20 PM
Yeah that's basically it.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 13, 2018, 04:26:49 PM
Until LM mentioned it a while back in the 35th anniversary thread I never really realised that the collector ponies had tags for the parlour. Seeing them like that is a bit weird to me because I think we had Lemon Drop, maybe Cotton Candy and Blossom but not the others...

Except Snuzzle which appeared for her release of the parlour in 1987. I wonder whether there's a difference between the UK version and the US one...or if it's just shade in the printing.

Also, are your cards single sided or double?
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 13, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
Here's pics of the old tags in the US release.
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It looks like that font you have is very close to identical, just a few letters have different styles.

Yea, I've got a bazillion fonts but not that exact one in my printing dept. computer. Mine is like DeVinne Ornament D or something like that and another is Devinne Text. It's just a matter of downloading the font or...me switching to another computer here at work. I think the regular version of De Vinne might be on the computer in the sign department.

I generally half pay attention to font names, because actually some programs will label a font a different name but it's pretty much the exact same font. :p
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 13, 2018, 05:26:49 PM
The US cards are single-sided. :)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leave a Whisper on August 13, 2018, 05:38:15 PM
just playing around with what I remember but they're something like this aren't they?

Sorry size and style is not exact, it's just something I whipped up really quick from what I remember them looking like.

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Looks good.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Skeen on August 13, 2018, 05:44:20 PM
Karen, as my go-to for symbol vectors for my plush embroidery, I fully endorse you making these replacement cards.  :D 
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 13, 2018, 05:49:54 PM
Karen, as my go-to for symbol vectors for my plush embroidery, I fully endorse you making these replacement cards.  :D 

Aww, thanks Skeen!

I'll have to round up mine from the attic, so I can compare in terms of paper quality/weight. I may not be able to find the exact/exact paper, but I can probably find something close. I know it's thicker, but if I have one in my hand I can probably compare to what I've got on the shelf, to find something at least as close as possible.

Because just like ponies, there are a zillion types/styles of paper out there.

I wonder if the new set is using the exact or if it's simply similar paper.

I haven't managed to get to a target lately to see if a parlor is available to buy. I actually want to get one for my cousins' daughter. she's about 7 now, when she saw my 35th annivesary Minty here I have at work she was excited to see it. So I know that little kids do still love the G1's! haha. So I thought I'd get the parlor for her for Christmas. But seems like it's not that easy to find or everyone's buying them up.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 13, 2018, 06:12:58 PM
just playing around with what I remember but they're something like this aren't they?

Sorry size and style is not exact, it's just something I whipped up really quick from what I remember them looking like.

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Looks wonderful!   :biggrin:

Here's pics of the old tags in the US release.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

It looks like that font you have is very close to identical, just a few letters have different styles.

Yep, those are the ones I remember  :biggrin:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Chrissytree on August 13, 2018, 06:19:41 PM
I have a bunch up on my website. Those are photos but I could scan the ones I have if they're needed. Except my French ones won't lie flat and if I try to make them they put pressure on the serration and try to pull apart. You can use any that don't have a © mark with someone's name - unless they give permission too.
https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/page-4-poof-n-puff---school.html (https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/page-4-poof-n-puff---school.html)

and I'm working on this page of nirvana ones thanks to photo donations from Ashlyne. So if you'd like these you'd need her permission:
https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/pretty-parlor-international.html (https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/pretty-parlor-international.html)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 13, 2018, 06:42:03 PM
I have a bunch up on my website. Those are photos but I could scan the ones I have if they're needed. Except my French ones won't lie flat and if I try to make them they put pressure on the serration and try to pull apart. You can use any that don't have a © mark with someone's name - unless they give permission too.
https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/page-4-poof-n-puff---school.html (https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/page-4-poof-n-puff---school.html)

and I'm working on this page of nirvana ones thanks to photo donations from Ashlyne. So if you'd like these you'd need her permission:
[url]https://mylittleponyaccessories.weebly.com/pretty-parlor-international.html[/url

That's an awesome collection of multi-country name cards! Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Khoufu on August 13, 2018, 06:51:53 PM
And here I am just intending to print them out on normal printer paper for my own use.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 13, 2018, 07:46:58 PM
And here I am just intending to print them out on normal printer paper for my own use.

Absolutely!

Whether you laminate them, add glitter or just print them off as-is, just so long as we have a resource of what the originals looked like, I think this would cater for all collector needs  :)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 14, 2018, 09:33:36 AM
The US cards are single-sided. :)

Interesting.  A lot of ours are double sided.

And Chrissytree to the rescue! That saves me digging through my box.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leikin on August 14, 2018, 10:15:29 AM
Just a request that they, even if alike the originals, will be easy to tell apart, so they wont be passed of as originals later on.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 14, 2018, 10:20:42 AM
Just a request that they, even if alike the originals, will be easy to tell apart, so they wont be passed of as originals later on.

I agree with this. I'm personally not against repros so long as they're honest repros and can be identified as reproductions not originals. There are a lot of us who don't collect reproduction stuff so it's important that nobody can get confused.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leikin on August 14, 2018, 11:45:00 AM
Just a request that they, even if alike the originals, will be easy to tell apart, so they wont be passed of as originals later on.

I agree with this. I'm personally not against repros so long as they're honest repros and can be identified as reproductions not originals. There are a lot of us who don't collect reproduction stuff so it's important that nobody can get confused.

I have nothing against repro stuff either, but it seems to be more and more popping up, so I think it is important that we can distinguish them from each other in an easy way. I myself would prefer if it actually said repro (and maybe year) somewhere on the product, as I have seen some makers say that "oh, it is safe, the original is sky blue, and my is light blue, so its easy to tell apart" or something similar. But for one that has never hold the real deal in its hands, it is really hard to tell the difference from a picture, when you have nothing to compare with, and different quality on photos can show different colours on screen.  So along the way, we might be considering them batch variants, faded, or different releases. Or just thinking you have the original, that you found in a lot on ebay, as you have never really seen an original in real life.  That is what I'm afraid of with all repros coming up, and I dont mean especially with this, but in general, and even if the makers are honest and selling them as repros, we never know where they end up in a few years, and how honest, or guillable, that seller is.
But that might be a whole other thread, I just wanted to squiz that in, if you are thinking of making a big scale reproduction run to sell. ^^
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Artemesia's Garden on August 14, 2018, 12:39:19 PM
I completely agree that all repro stuff should have a date on it. Small but indelile, somewhere neat and unobtrusive. Great idea!
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 14, 2018, 01:03:13 PM
The originals were on perforated cardboard.   It will be easy to tell the repros apart because they won't be perforated at the edges.

I don't think these are to sell?   I thought people were just going to individually print them out.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on August 14, 2018, 01:44:53 PM
I thought that same,
just something to print out to replace lost ones
and getting the closest typeface (font) to make my own ones for "non-name-carded" ponies.
 :)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 14, 2018, 02:01:09 PM
This concern gets raised a lot recently - about reproductions and restorations and stuff.

I'm with Leikin and Artie on this.

We've had a few conversations about rehairs being sold undisclosed, about repro flutter wings being sold as authentic - not because anyone is malicious but because of a lack of knowledge somewhere in the transaction. And it's fine to say buyer beware, but if the buyer is new and doesn't know the questions to ask, they become much more vulnerable to being misled.

It's true the originals are perforated, but I've got a few that are so badly worn it's hard to tell if they were ever on a perforated sheet or not :/

But looking at them there is a simple way to resolve this for the English language ones. All of the English tags  have a small TM next to the name. This is true for the UK and the US releases. If someone is making repro tags in English language for people to use, maybe they could remove the tm? That way it would be obvious they weren't authentic, without ruining the overall look of the tag??

In the case of the UK ones, unless there is a plan to make them double sided, it would be easier to note reproductions because of the difficulty of getting tags with the right names on both sides. But it might be possible (again, if someone is making these for distribution) to have the blank side marked in some way with a watermark.

I don't know about the Nirvana tags. I don't know enough about them to know what their individual characteristics are. I did notice most don't have TM.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 14, 2018, 02:06:27 PM
All of the English tags  have a small TM next to the name. This is true for the UK and the US releases. If someone is making repro tags in English language for people to use, maybe they could remove the tm? That way it would be obvious they weren't authentic, without ruining the overall look of the tag??


That's a good idea . . . I was just noticing yesterday that they were all "TMed".
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Baby Sugarberry on August 14, 2018, 03:43:55 PM
I'd vote skip the 'TM' and the fact they'll not be perforated should be enough - odds are these repos are never going to be as worn, and will be printed on a home computer so it should be relatively obvious they have no perforations and never did.  That and the typeface isn't a perfect match. 

It wouldn't be impossible to sneak a tiny year/reproduction into the artwork somewhere, or offer watermarking that can be printed on the back of the sheet (if doing US style single-sided cards) for those that are concerned.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 14, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
I'd vote skip the 'TM' and the fact they'll not be perforated should be enough - odds are these repos are never going to be as worn, and will be printed on a home computer so it should be relatively obvious they have no perforations and never did.  That and the typeface isn't a perfect match. 

It wouldn't be impossible to sneak a tiny year/reproduction into the artwork somewhere, or offer watermarking that can be printed on the back of the sheet (if doing US style single-sided cards) for those that are concerned.

Yeah, I was wondering about watermarking the back. I am assuming that making good doublesided ones with the exact right names on each side for the UK release ones is possible but much more work so if those are single sided it's less of a problem. But I just noticed on Chrissytree's lovely site the ones which are single sided.

The fact that there are some of the pony tags from after the collector set that are not double sided is something to watch out for. But removing the TM is a really tiny way of making sure they can never be mixed up without ruining the overall display effect.

It's just another matter to work out what to do with the nirvana ones. Maybe those are the ones that need the watermarking?
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 14, 2018, 05:05:43 PM
Oh nooo, my plans to make millions of dollaz passing off re-makes as legit of the mini identification name cards for the pretty parlor is ruined. Y'all are just no fun (baahumbug) However will I make millions of moneeeezzz!?!?! :silly:

But seriously, I would not put trademark on them if you are recreating, simply because, putting TM on them makes them look official, which clearly is what some people seem to be worried about, at least I hope that is what people are worried about. Reselling as official products or items being passed off as official. Plus I thought it was more about making non-existing tags that hasbro never made, not remaking existing ones.

Instead of TM You'd want to brand them with an identification logo, as in my case, either put my business logo on the back or something identifying me as the creator. Or at least that is what I would be doing.

And sorry, I didn't managed to get into the attic to find my originals, I was too tired last night to be tra-la-la-ing around the attic. So much for my evil plans dominating the pretty parlor name tag market, clearly I'm not a very good evildoer.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Baby Sugarberry on August 14, 2018, 06:06:47 PM
I'd expect these would be for individual collectors, not for sale anyways.  Anything I make  would be freely available for anyone who wanted to use it for personal, non-commercial use.  Selling stuff just potentially opens you up to all sorts of unwelcome legal attention.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 14, 2018, 08:25:53 PM
I'd expect these would be for individual collectors, not for sale anyways.  Anything I make  would be freely available for anyone who wanted to use it for personal, non-commercial use.  Selling stuff just potentially opens you up to all sorts of unwelcome legal attention.

It's all free till somebody starts shipping/mailing something OR changes stuff....

but I want the super ultra glow in the dark glitter gloss paper; I thought you said it was free. waaa!

LOL! :silly:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on August 14, 2018, 09:05:45 PM
I would imagine people doing this for free. It isn't that so much as there will always be someone somewhere who will try to boost a parlour sale. Most of these are common enough I think but the nirvana ones and those of Snuzzle's parlour are rarer.

People here are honest but sharing something from kindness can backfire.  Just doesn't hurt to be safe.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: NightGliderSA on August 15, 2018, 07:57:55 AM
These are valid concerns; someone not in our community may get their hands on these cards and have a try at selling them in the future. One never knows. And if they are not collectors they may do this completely innocently.

I agree with removing the "TM' and would perhaps suggest taking it one step further as WE all know the TM should be there but other people may not necessarily be aware of this. So my suggestion is: replace the "TM" with "REPRO". Very small. Then there is really absolutely no chance whatsoever that anyone would ever confuse them with the originals.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leikin on August 15, 2018, 11:15:28 AM
I dont think anyone here would do it for profit or cheat others, but even having them available for free for others to use, we never know where they will end up in a few years. We may have the best of intentions today, but we cannot say what will happen in the future.  Even if noone is actually scamming anyone, they can be passed on as real because lack of knowledge.

The perforated edges might be easy for us who knows to tell the difference, but as a new collector, or a collector just new to playsets and nametags, lack of perforating and lack of TM wont make a difference, unless there is stated somewhere that this is in fact the difference between repro and original. I mean, some people might not even know they should be on the lookout for repros, and somewhere along the line, this might start discussions about wheater the nametags without TM or perforating are some kind of variants. Or if they find a nametag with for example Mimic, that really not exist.

I mean, I have been collecting for a long time, and also collects accessories, but I have seen repros that I would not know how to tell apart from the real deal if I didnt have an original at hand to compare with, or known that there was repros of it.  And still those that creates them says that you can easily see the difference between real and repro. Of course it easy if you are knowledged and know what to look for,and first of all, KNOW that it MIGHT be a repro, so you have to examine it. But the majority is not aware of these things, and we should be cascious.

Of course this is not relevant if you just print them on regular thin printer paper for your own use, but it you make them on hard paper with a quality that equals the real deal.

Quote
Instead of TM You'd want to brand them with an identification logo, as in my case, either put my business logo on the back or something identifying me as the creator. Or at least that is what I would be doing.
Branding, or business logo would be a good way to make sure its not the real deal. It dont have to be big, or it can be on the back.
I agree with removing the "TM' and would perhaps suggest taking it one step further as WE all know the TM should be there but other people may not necessarily be aware of this. So my suggestion is: replace the "TM" with "REPRO". Very small. Then there is really absolutely no chance whatsoever that anyone would ever confuse them with the originals.
This is a great idea! As you said, others might not know all real should have TM marks (I have never tought of that before) So a little repro print would be great! or a watermark at the back.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Carrehz on August 15, 2018, 01:20:29 PM
I like the idea of replacing the "TM" with a little "REPRO" or otherwise marking them as a repro somewhere. Never hurts to make it clear that it's not the real deal.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 15, 2018, 04:08:41 PM
If someone really wanted to make these and pass them off as legit, it's not hard to do.

So if for instance if I really wanted to, I have all the equipment to remake these and even make them look legitimate, even with perforation, I have 2 perf machines so it wouldn't be that difficult for me to even match the perf impressions depending on the wheel hasbro used.

Do I want or have any desire to do that? NO.

I dont think anyone here would do it for profit or cheat others, but even having them available for free for others to use, we never know where they will end up in a few years. We may have the best of intentions today, but we cannot say what will happen in the future.  Even if noone is actually scamming anyone, they can be passed on as real because lack of knowledge.



But we need to just back up to the beginning, there have ALWAYS been people who try to pass off things as legit.

This one time at a flea market I had this one lady try to insist the pony she had was worth more money because it was signed/writing on it. But the pony was just in a large plastic bin of ponies. It wasn't a pony set aside like something special, it was at the bottom of a bin.

So the suggestion that I need to worry about every collector and every possible scamming situation, honestly it's too much to worry about IMO.

If 25 or 50 or 100 years there is a lot of stuff out there that is probably going to be identified or passed off as real - even some customs look legit. So I see some folks are saying in a couple of years OMG, scammers, but what about in 50 years, 100 years? Most of us are going to be dead at a certain point, and our collections are going to move on somewhere; do I really need to be thinking about that?

Is it a super big concern of mine? Not really, I've never seriously worried about it. And maybe it's just because I've been into MLP so long that I can usually spot something that isn't real or at least be a pretty good guesser that it doesn't bother me so much. But am I supposed to worry about the collector who comes along in 50-60 years who is maybe buying my pony collection after I'm dead...

 I have a lot of things to worry about and I don't need that kind of stress in my life and I'm thinking nobody else does either. In fact, now that that is in my head, I'm annoyed with whoever that person is buying my ponies.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Baby Sugarberry on August 15, 2018, 08:41:49 PM
As Karen said, it's not hard to make a fake if you have the right equipment.  If a file of any kind is made available or someone has enough time on their hands to reproduce the simple design of the Parlor tags, then they are going to be capable of making something that passes as legit and/or removing all the 'repo' or watermarking they want.

Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Carrehz on August 15, 2018, 09:30:38 PM
well yeah, of course if someone's determined to scam then they'll probably also be determined enough to remove the marks identifying them as a repro - but it doesn't hurt to try and prevent that, surely? :p 'Sides, I doubt anyone would actually try it on. I think probably there's more risk of people innocently mistaking them for the real deal.

Also to clarify, I was only suggesting a "repro" mark should be put on any reproductions that are available online, not on ones made for personal use X3 If that makes sense. Obviously y'all can do whatever you want for your own collections.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leikin on August 16, 2018, 11:11:46 AM
I'm not talking about 50 years down the road, but maybe 4-5 years. I dont even think ponycollecting will be a big thing in 50 years, so you probably dont need to worry ablut that.

Yes that it is easy for those who WANT to scam, to make repros that looks original, that doesnt mean we should make repros that looks exactly like the original, but try to prevent that it happens by mistake.
I'm sorry, but to me it just sound a little lazy to just say "meh, its already easy for people to scam if they want to, so I dont care if people will be scamming others with my repros".

I mean, its not a big deal to mark the repros with "repro" or a watermark, then you have done what you can, and wont have to worry any more.

And yes, there is always people that will be trying to pass on things as legit, but why make it easier for them? If the word repro is added somewhere on the product, it would probably rise questions even by the newest of collectors.

Quote
well yeah, of course if someone's determined to scam then they'll probably also be determined enough to remove the marks identifying them as a repro - but it doesn't hurt to try and prevent that, surely? :p
'Sides, I doubt anyone would actually try it on. I think probably there's more risk of people innocently mistaking them for the real deal.Also to clarify, I was only suggesting a "repro" mark should be put on any reproductions that are available online, not on ones made for personal use X3 If that makes sense. Obviously y'all can do whatever you want for your own collections.

That is my thought as well. Its not really the scamming parts that worries me most, but people that think they are real by lack of knowledge.
And yes, for your own collection, do whatever you want, but as soon as it involves others it should be clear that it is a replica and cannot be mistaken as the real deal.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Carrehz on August 16, 2018, 02:47:44 PM
aaa Leikin, you said everything I wanted to say but could never have worded it nearly as well as you did! :iconclap:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 16, 2018, 02:55:14 PM
I'm not talking about 50 years down the road, but maybe 4-5 years. I dont even think ponycollecting will be a big thing in 50 years, so you probably dont need to worry ablut that.

4-5 years? If you're closer to the fire the more likely you are to get burned.

I'm pretty sure in 4-5 if someone comes in trying to make the 'moochobigmoney' off pretty parlor name tags - I'm thinking it'll be easier to identify and point out in 5 years opposed to 50. Not sure that small amount of time would be harder. I'll still hopefully be around in 5 to point out the scammers if they show up, I can't account for 50 and who will be around to point it out. That's kind of the point I was making. We're sort of saying we want to control the system, but only for the next 5 years...but it's saying well, I'll be dead in 50 years so who cares about those collectors. It's almost like saying while I'm here I'm gonna care, which technically sounds almost like what I was saying.

I'm not going to make all around statement that MLP will not be collectable in 50 years. I can't say that for sure, there are plenty of things that are 50 years old that people still want or want to see. At some point ponies will be considered antiques, actually I don't know at what point it crosses that threshold.

 But 5, 10, 20. I'd assume the concern about fake things would still be the same even if we're all dead and gone, right? But then again, being a realist here and knowing I can't control every situation.

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Yes that it is easy for those who WANT to scam, to make repros that looks original, that doesnt mean we should make repros that looks exactly like the original, but try to prevent that it happens by mistake.
I'm sorry, but to me it just sound a little lazy to just say "meh, its already easy for people to scam if they want to, so I dont care if people will be scamming others with my repros".

Wow, lazy. Thanks?

If I or my words are to be considered lazy, then I'm not sure what to say about those that insist on a forum that by stopping the responsible collectors from creating things or discussing them, that it's going to prevent the actual real life scammers from doing something?

A lot of us have been here a long time, I don't think a majority of us are lazy or scammers, or I'd hope we wouldn't result to calling other collectors lazy. But I guess we are at that point. To me it's being more realistic to say, there are scammers and always have been. It's sorta like putting up a warning sign. There are bears in the woods. You probably will not get attacked but just be aware.

I don't quite see how that is lazy? Does saying that mean I agree with scamming??? Does saying that suggest I'm not going to point out a scam when I see one???

Not sure how being realistic about it means I'm lazy, but fine...I'm a lazy unicorn, I'll take it.

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I mean, its not a big deal to mark the repros with "repro" or a watermark, then you have done what you can, and wont have to worry any more.

Errr, yea, I think almost everyone agreed ( I mean I didn't take a poll in the thread) but it seem to me like the general mood from everyone is that if IF IFFFFFF we made unique tags for ourselves we would try to put identification on it to show that it wasn't original. So I'm not sure why the constant insistence that we put ID's on the tags, when most of us seem to say we'd put ID's on what we make.

Quote
And yes, there is always people that will be trying to pass on things as legit, but why make it easier for them? If the word repro is added somewhere on the product, it would probably rise questions even by the newest of collectors.


Maybe put in big letters on the back: Lazy Collector
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Khoufu on August 16, 2018, 05:00:39 PM
Jeez just put Repro where the Trademark would be in scans/originals and call it good. If a scammer edits it or a seller takes terrible photos, it's not you fault.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Baby Sugarberry on August 17, 2018, 01:38:24 AM
Everyone's free to do what they want, of course, but I'm not making something purposely uglier or that detracts from my own enjoyment.  In 50 years, there'll probably be machines that are 'press a button, instant pony'.  So all this kafuffle seems pointless but amusing.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 17, 2018, 02:56:10 AM
Everyone's free to do what they want, of course, but I'm not making something purposely uglier or that detracts from my own enjoyment.  In 50 years, there'll probably be machines that are 'press a button, instant pony'.  So all this kafuffle seems pointless but amusing.

yesss...the lazy pony way...sadly the machine will only makes pinkie pie...
 :biggrin:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leave a Whisper on August 17, 2018, 03:13:11 AM
I'd expect these would be for individual collectors, not for sale anyways.  Anything I make  would be freely available for anyone who wanted to use it for personal, non-commercial use.  Selling stuff just potentially opens you up to all sorts of unwelcome legal attention.

It's all free till somebody starts shipping/mailing something OR changes stuff....

but I want the super ultra glow in the dark glitter gloss paper; I thought you said it was free. waaa!

LOL! :silly:

Is that so you can brainwash us for your own evil schemes? ;)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 17, 2018, 03:26:12 AM
I'd expect these would be for individual collectors, not for sale anyways.  Anything I make  would be freely available for anyone who wanted to use it for personal, non-commercial use.  Selling stuff just potentially opens you up to all sorts of unwelcome legal attention.

It's all free till somebody starts shipping/mailing something OR changes stuff....

but I want the super ultra glow in the dark glitter gloss paper; I thought you said it was free. waaa!

LOL! :silly:

Is that so you can brainwash us for your own evil schemes? ;)

Yessss....warning...My evil schemes usually involve a LOT of glitter.

But incidently glitter name tags would be super snazzy.

Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on August 17, 2018, 05:00:11 AM
Seems to me the most important thing is to maintain the repositories of knowledge, like the Wiki, so that people have a reliable place to look up genuine items.  Easier and more productive than trying to 'police' fan-made items.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leikin on August 17, 2018, 09:23:33 AM
I'm not talking about 50 years down the road, but maybe 4-5 years. I dont even think ponycollecting will be a big thing in 50 years, so you probably dont need to worry ablut that.

4-5 years? If you're closer to the fire the more likely you are to get burned.

I'm pretty sure in 4-5 if someone comes in trying to make the 'moochobigmoney' off pretty parlor name tags - I'm thinking it'll be easier to identify and point out in 5 years opposed to 50. Not sure that small amount of time would be harder. I'll still hopefully be around in 5 to point out the scammers if they show up, I can't account for 50 and who will be around to point it out. That's kind of the point I was making. We're sort of saying we want to control the system, but only for the next 5 years...but it's saying well, I'll be dead in 50 years so who cares about those collectors. It's almost like saying while I'm here I'm gonna care, which technically sounds almost like what I was saying.

I'm not going to make all around statement that MLP will not be collectable in 50 years. I can't say that for sure, there are plenty of things that are 50 years old that people still want or want to see. At some point ponies will be considered antiques, actually I don't know at what point it crosses that threshold.

 But 5, 10, 20. I'd assume the concern about fake things would still be the same even if we're all dead and gone, right? But then again, being a realist here and knowing I can't control every situation.

Quote
Yes that it is easy for those who WANT to scam, to make repros that looks original, that doesnt mean we should make repros that looks exactly like the original, but try to prevent that it happens by mistake.
I'm sorry, but to me it just sound a little lazy to just say "meh, its already easy for people to scam if they want to, so I dont care if people will be scamming others with my repros".

Wow, lazy. Thanks?

If I or my words are to be considered lazy, then I'm not sure what to say about those that insist on a forum that by stopping the responsible collectors from creating things or discussing them, that it's going to prevent the actual real life scammers from doing something?

A lot of us have been here a long time, I don't think a majority of us are lazy or scammers, or I'd hope we wouldn't result to calling other collectors lazy. But I guess we are at that point. To me it's being more realistic to say, there are scammers and always have been. It's sorta like putting up a warning sign. There are bears in the woods. You probably will not get attacked but just be aware.

I don't quite see how that is lazy? Does saying that mean I agree with scamming??? Does saying that suggest I'm not going to point out a scam when I see one???

Not sure how being realistic about it means I'm lazy, but fine...I'm a lazy unicorn, I'll take it.

Quote
I mean, its not a big deal to mark the repros with "repro" or a watermark, then you have done what you can, and wont have to worry any more.

Errr, yea, I think almost everyone agreed ( I mean I didn't take a poll in the thread) but it seem to me like the general mood from everyone is that if IF IFFFFFF we made unique tags for ourselves we would try to put identification on it to show that it wasn't original. So I'm not sure why the constant insistence that we put ID's on the tags, when most of us seem to say we'd put ID's on what we make.

Quote
And yes, there is always people that will be trying to pass on things as legit, but why make it easier for them? If the word repro is added somewhere on the product, it would probably rise questions even by the newest of collectors.


Maybe put in big letters on the back: Lazy Collector

Wow. I never said that YOU where lazy, just that it sounded lazy to not want to put repro or watermark on a thing, just because you dont care what people do in 50 years. You said earlier that you would be adding your company name on them if making, so that was clearly not inteded to you, but to the whole point if people just dont care enough on what happens to others, because it just dont bothers them.
Of course it will be harder to know the real from the repros in 50 years, if we not bother to pinpoint the differences today, or mark repros so they are easy to identify.
Sure, you may be dead in 50 years, but does that mean that we should not care? I think we, as a comunity have the responsibility to preserve to pony history, if people will still be collecting in 50 years. So in that mean, yes, it IS lazy to not mark repros, just because you dont care what happens 50 years down the road. (and again, you said you would mark them, so not intended to you, but in general.)

And I dont think people will sell nametags to make a big buck on money.  that is not what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about that people will not know the difference in the future, be it 5 or 50 years.
No you cant control every situation, but you can do what you can to prevent it from happen.
And being realistic, yes, making repros that look exactly like the original WILL be mistaken as originals in the future. We can try to prevent that. Yes, THere WILL be scammers in the future. But with a repro mark that would be harder to do, wouldnt it?
And NO, I dont think most of you are scammers, I have never said that, so I dont know where you get that from. But you are right, there are, and always will be. But that is not my big concern. Again, my concern is that people will unknowingly buy things they think are real, from anknowingly sellers, and somewhere along the line we will loose the grip on what is the real deal or not, if they are not properly marked.

And I have never (nor have I seen someone else here) said that I want to stop collectors from doing repros or talk about them on the forum. Why would I?  Quite the opposite, I encourage it, as long as they are proparly marked. And discussions about them are just good, as it keep people aware, and maybe inspire others.  There are a lot of great repros out there, from people that mark them as such.
And I was never talking about just the name tags, but repros in general. The discussion just happened to be in a thread about name tags. So go ahead, and make your own name tags. It would be fun to see how people desig tha nametags for ponies never made. :)  The nametag presented earlier in this thread was really preatty imo.

And yes, most seem to agree that they should be marked, so I dont understand why some people feel the need to still argue about that I'm wrong, as most seem to agree that it should be marked? I really dont get that.
And if the thought that I may have called you lazy bothers you, maybe you should tone done your own sarcasm a bit, as it is never a good way of keeping a discussion friendly.

Quote
Everyone's free to do what they want, of course, but I'm not making something purposely uglier or that detracts from my own enjoyment.  In 50 years, there'll probably be machines that are 'press a button, instant pony'.  So all this kafuffle seems pointless but amusing.
Of course not. Why make it uglier? You can make it prettier if you want, or just alike. Just be sure to mark it accordingly (if they can be confused with originals)if they would ever change hands. (Mark it on the back, if you dont want it visible when displaying)

aaa Leikin, you said everything I wanted to say but could never have worded it nearly as well as you did! :iconclap:
Thanks :)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Baby Sugarberry on August 17, 2018, 09:52:28 AM
Yes, THere WILL be scammers in the future. But with a repro mark that would be harder to do, wouldnt it?
Marking stuff as reproduction does not stop scammers.  Anyone with some time/skill/tech can get around watermarks with little-to-no fuss, and if anyone was actually trying to pass off their bootleg as the genuine deal, they would probably do so.

The only thing marking repo's does is (maybe) tell an uninformed buyer/seller that they have a reproduction on their hands, if they notice it.

Of course not. Why make it uglier? You can make it prettier if you want, or just alike. Just be sure to mark it accordingly (if they can be confused with originals)if they would ever change hands. (Mark it on the back, if you dont want it visible when displaying)

Don't tell others what they should or shouldn't do with their own time / skills. :huh:
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Leikin on August 17, 2018, 10:26:42 AM
Yes, THere WILL be scammers in the future. But with a repro mark that would be harder to do, wouldnt it?
Marking stuff as reproduction does not stop scammers.  Anyone with some time/skill/tech can get around watermarks with little-to-no fuss, and if anyone was actually trying to pass off their bootleg as the genuine deal, they would probably do so.

The only thing marking repo's does is (maybe) tell an uninformed buyer/seller that they have a reproduction on their hands, if they notice it.

Well, that is mostly what I want to do, tell uninformed buyers/sellers what they have in hand, and preserve that knowledge for the future.
I'm aware it is impossible to stop scammers, that was not my point either.

Quote
Of course not. Why make it uglier? You can make it prettier if you want, or just alike. Just be sure to mark it accordingly (if they can be confused with originals)if they would ever change hands. (Mark it on the back, if you dont want it visible when displaying)

Don't tell others what they should or shouldn't do with their own time / skills. :huh:

well, you obviosly can do whatever you like. It's just my, and obviously others, wish, that they cannot be mistaken to be real by others when/if changeing hands.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: KarentheUnicorn on August 17, 2018, 02:23:39 PM

Wow. I never said that YOU where lazy, just that it sounded lazy to not want to put repro or watermark on a thing,

Actually, yea it was in responds to what I was talking about, scamming existing. So you imply that people are lazy it was:
Quote
I'm sorry, but to me it just sound a little lazy to just say "meh, its already easy for people to scam if they want to, so I dont care if people will be scamming others with my repros".

I was the one who brought up the topic of scamming existing in that framework, which is what you were responding to. I don't think I ever said I don't care did I? There is a difference in being realistic and telling new collectors to be aware of the bear in the woods, there is another that you're suggesting, that we're pointing them in the direction of the bear and laughing at them when they get mauled.

 
Quote
just because you dont care what people do in 50 years.

ur, hold on a minute. Correct me if I'm wrong but you were the one who said
Quote
I'm not talking about 50 years down the road, but maybe 4-5 years. I dont even think ponycollecting will be a big thing in 50 years, so you probably dont need to worry ablut that.

If you believe pony collecting isn't even going to exist in 50 year...I mean, I'm not the one who said I didn't care. I'm the one who actually said 50 years seems more important than 5 years down the road.


Quote
but to the whole point if people just dont care enough on what happens to others, because it just dont bothers them.

But this is the MLP forum, not the carebear forum; the thing is, you need to tell me exactly how to make people care. I'm not sure I have that power.
 
 
Quote
Sure, you may be dead in 50 years, but does that mean that we should not care?

What is up with all this care comments. I never said I don't care, you must be confusing me with someone else or another thread, seriously.

Quote
I think we, as a comunity have the responsibility to preserve to pony history, if people will still be collecting in 50 years. So in that mean, yes, it IS lazy to not mark repros, just because you dont care what happens 50 years down the road. (and again, you said you would mark them, so not intended to you, but in general.)

You're telling the pony collecting community that they need to care more than they already care?  Yea, that's kind of insulting, just so you know. I don't think some of us can love ponies more, and implying people are lazy and they don't care when almost everyone in the thread is agreeing to the same thing. I don't get it, I'm not really arguing I'm still not getting where it is the we don't care is coming from? Seriously, did someone say they don't care in here? I mean, I defy anyone to say I don't care about MLP. But I also can't babysit every newbie that shows up. I may be old enough to be their mama, but I ain't nobodys mama.


Quote
I'm concerned about that people will not know the difference in the future, be it 5 or 50 years.

Then you need to stop being concerned, especially considering there are people who still can't even tell a real MLP from a fake one. So I think when you see something that isn't right point it out, but I think continuing to tell the actual people who do CARE to care more or they're lazy is kinda overkill IMO.

 
Quote
No you cant control every situation, but you can do what you can to prevent it from happen.

Police ponies unite??? In a world where scammers and people that don't know MLP, try to sell pretty parlor custom nametags as real...who can stop them...KarentheUnicorn and Leikin, Pony Police Patrol, pony crime fighting duo!!

 
Quote
And being realistic, yes, making repros that look exactly like the original WILL be mistaken as originals in the future. We can try to prevent that.

Pony 911...someone is selling a faky as a real MLP....duntdadaaa, Pony...Police...Patroooollllllll, arriving just in time to save the day.


Quote
Again, my concern is that people will unknowingly buy things they think are real, from anknowingly sellers, and somewhere along the line we will loose the grip on what is the real deal or not, if they are not properly marked.

Forgive them Celestial, they know not what they do.
Again, I think most of us agree with that so it's sorta like preaching to the choir.
 
Quote
And yes, most seem to agree that they should be marked, so I dont understand why some people feel the need to still argue about that I'm wrong, as most seem to agree that it should be marked? I really dont get that.

I think it's more that you're telling us over and over again might be the issue.

Quote
And if the thought that I may have called you lazy bothers you, maybe you should tone done your own sarcasm a bit, as it is never a good way of keeping a discussion friendly.

whaaaa? You must have me confused with the ponycollector crying on my keyboard and adel's song Hello is playing in the background.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: honeyblossom on February 09, 2019, 01:05:06 AM
Can anyone make me some repo name cards please
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: nessa16 on February 09, 2019, 02:37:49 AM
I could swear someone had already done this but probably wrong.

I didn’t know Snuzzle came with the Pretty Parlor too!

I have been wanting to do this and use cardstock. Especially, with the new PP that only has Peachy’s.

That accessory site is amazing!
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Chrissytree on February 09, 2019, 04:12:00 PM
Yes, Snuzzle did :) but only in the UK and only for a very short amount of time, possibly as little as 6 months.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: nessa16 on February 09, 2019, 04:27:42 PM
Yes, Snuzzle did :) but only in the UK and only for a very short amount of time, possibly as little as 6 months.

Was she advertised with it or just popped in the box like a replacement Peachy, hoping no one would notice? Does anyone have her still packaged or advertisements or just that people remember it?
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on February 09, 2019, 05:27:17 PM
She is on the box. There are pics on my site.

Edit: Ok, now I'm on the PC I can add the link ;)

http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/groomingparlour_snuzzle.htm

I think it was Shlugh who first donated those images, it was a long time ago. As Chrissytree said, it was a short run, probably to get rid of left over blue parlours and Snuzzles before the KC parlour appeared. It happened in 1987 and it came with the rarer tags including those with Mountain Boy names (and the infamous 'Storm' tag).

Snuzzle had a weird set of releases over here, though. Argos also had her in an offer with the baby bow tie stroller, so this is really just another in that line. I guess she was in place of Peachy, but they did it properly.

Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Chrissytree on February 09, 2019, 07:34:31 PM
I got the set with Snuzzle when I was 7ish so that's how I knew :)
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: honeyblossom on February 09, 2019, 11:34:40 PM
That’s what I would like them for , the new pretty parlour . 😊
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on February 10, 2019, 07:07:59 AM
It happened in 1987 and it came with the rarer tags including those with Mountain Boy names (and the infamous 'Storm' tag).

Tangent here -
I have never heard of Storm - is this a mystery, never-made pony? Was Storm supposed to be part of the set with Tornado etc? I wonder what Storm was to have looked like!
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: LadyMoondancer on February 10, 2019, 07:53:29 AM
I believe Storm is Thundercloud. :)  It was an early name for him, but they changed it by the time he entered production.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: Taffeta on February 10, 2019, 08:37:39 AM
Yes. Storm is thundercloud. He and Ice Crystal had different pre production names. The fact it appears on a tag suggests how early in 1987 Snuzzle's parlour must have been.
Title: Re: G1 Grooming Parlour / Pretty Parlor NAME CARDS
Post by: glitterball on February 10, 2019, 11:56:37 AM
Thanks LM & Taffeta for the Storm name card / Thundercloud explanation!  :ohyeah:
I am not lucky enough to own Thundercloud so am not too familiar with his symbol.


I have had a play with alternative name cards.

They are not sized to fit the Parlour runway/catwalk/stage, I was thinking about making pretty tags out of them instead, or using them as the centre image of a satin rosette.

Just a bit of fun - enjoy!


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