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Pony Talk => Off Topic => Topic started by: tailrustedtealeaf on December 26, 2018, 05:10:41 PM

Title: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on December 26, 2018, 05:10:41 PM

I saw that this was out on Netflix, any other Watership Down fans? It's about 3 and a half hours long total, four episodes.
I'm not a hardcore fan, so I can say I really enjoyed this series. I found it was easy to follow (something that I had problems with in the movie for some reason?) and I think the changes serve the story well. The animation is a bit odd, and looks off until you adjust to it. It looks like an early '00s video game, I think because of the fur rendering? I also didn't like how the dog looked at all.
Did anyone else watch it? Any thoughts?

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Gator on December 26, 2018, 05:21:18 PM

I'm afraid to watch.  The animation I saw in a preview looked bad, a step in the wrong direction from the old movie.  I love the book and its sequel. 

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Taffeta on December 26, 2018, 05:40:16 PM

It aired on TV here in two main parts on the 22nd and 23rd of December. I haven't watched the full thing yet, it's waiting on my TV box. I watched up to the end of the first part, just about to where Kehaar appears...

Spoiler

So they said it wasn't as dark as the original. I don't think the original is particularly dark, and I think from what I've seen so far this one is more psychologically dark in places. It's what the implications are rather than the actual visual violence.

I don't really like the animation style either but I'll live with it depending how they deal with the rest of the plot.

Big issues with the gender change on Strawberry. I get they want a strong female character or some such (according to the article in Radio Times here) but that ruins the whole reason to risk their lives to go to the farm...so yeah. I'm really not with that, and especially not with the unecessary extra scene with whoever spreading rumours about whoever else in competition for her attention. Not needed, not in the book, not appropriate. Really don't see the point in changing the gender just to insert a bit of patriarchal fighting over the girl dialogue? (Yeah, really not with that).

For me if they don't kill Blackaver that will be progress on the original.

I read the book years ago and  nothing will ever beat the book for me, but I'm not totally hostile to how this has been done from what I've seen so far. Gonna watch the rest before I make a judgement.

Slightly confused about how Kehaar ended up Scottish though. For all Peter Capaldi is a good actor, I am pretty sure he wasn't scottish in the book. And I'm not sure if I like the approach compared with the book in terms of his character...yet. We'll see...

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Mewtwofan1 on December 26, 2018, 10:38:52 PM

     I recently watched the original animated film, and am quite honestly impressed. Sure, it’s a bit more dark than most cartoons for children, but it is an interesting bit of material.
     I haven’t watched the new one yet (I wasn’t even aware there was a remake), but I will give it a shot. I’m not that pleased with the still images of the rabbits I’ve seen so far, but they might look better when animated. I’ll watch sometime, and get back to you on this.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: BlackCurtains on December 27, 2018, 09:57:38 AM

I don't know much about Watership Down. It just wasn't a part of my childhood but I blame my school :P I mean, we certainly weren't kept from dark stuff; we read and watched the original Animal Farm in like, second grade (and it's still a favorite).

All the talk is making me interested though, and especially after watching the preview on Netflix. Looks like my kinda thing. So I want to work by order of appearance. Book, original, remake.

I'll chime in later.

(I've hesitated watching it in the past because a lot of animated movies that people on the internet scream "ahh it's the greatest ever!!!" tend to... not be. I remember watching Grave of the Fireflies and not feeling much of anything [aside from anger at the aunt/neighbor/whoever she was] and that probably makes me sound like a horrible person :lol: But then, I've always been more emotional when non-human animals are involved.)

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Noasar on December 27, 2018, 10:50:03 AM

WD superfan here!!

I think the animation was meant to be purposefully naive, but they didn’t quite get it basic enough. I wish they had done it Isle of Dogs style or something.

I was impressed with how much of the book they included and how accurately they stuck to the story. That said it didn’t come close to capturing the subtleties and individual personalities of the rabbits and how they are portrayed in the book, but that’s the benefit of the written word; 600 pages to elaborate and give some of the actions and words more context. I liked the use of so much Lapine language and the brave inclusion of the character name Thethuthinnang. If you’re not familiar with the book some details like that may have been lost on you. 

There were some parts missing and some changes that I didn’t welcome but all in all I think it was a pretty good effort. I liked the voice acting and I got used to the animation. The biggest flaw for me was that some of the rabbits looked more like hares and they have the rabbits pink paw pads like cats! I would have thought the lead animator would have done a bit more research into rabbit anatomy to get basic things like that right.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Gator on December 27, 2018, 04:18:15 PM

Taffeta, I agree with you about Blackavar. 

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Leave a Whisper on December 27, 2018, 06:20:03 PM

Eh. I'm not interested, or insulted. I think the Strawberry thing is dumb too. Though I recall the original movie having a few female rabbits that weren't there as well.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Beldarna on December 27, 2018, 09:54:32 PM

Wasn't impressed by the trailer, the animation looks so off.  I'm a huge WD fan, both the book and the movie so I am a bit apprehensive, but it's on my watchlist for New Years Eve.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: SpaceButtPonies on December 27, 2018, 11:27:14 PM

I just finished the new series, I've sadly never read the book but the movie I watched a lot as a kid.

From the start the animation looks off but like some said you get used to it and it isn't so bad. It's definitely easier to follow than the movie, it kept me entertained from start to finish (then again I'm easily entertained haha). The series is dark like the movie but not as gory. Blood is shown, just subtle.
I'm happy I got to see more of the characters, especially General Woundwort. As a child I never understood his character lol.
Overall I'm happy how it all turned out, I would watch it again :)

(also there was a TV series???)

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: SnorkMaiden on December 27, 2018, 11:42:02 PM

I recorded it when it was on TV, but I haven't watched it yet. I'd like to think I'm going in with a pretty open mind, as I don't remember the original and never read the book. We shall see whether I enjoy it.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Noasar on December 28, 2018, 02:50:21 AM

Quote from: Pikashoes on December 27, 2018, 11:27:14 PM

(also there was a TV series???)

Yes, it’s amazing! Although it doesn’t really stick to the plot of the book. I was obsessed with the tv series as a child!

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Taffeta on December 28, 2018, 06:13:20 AM

Quote from: Noasar on December 28, 2018, 02:50:21 AM

Quote from: Pikashoes on December 27, 2018, 11:27:14 PM

(also there was a TV series???)

Yes, it’s amazing! Although it doesn’t really stick to the plot of the book. I was obsessed with the tv series as a child!

If I remember right, didn't they gender-switch a bunch of rabbits in that as well? I never really saw it when it aired but my sister did watch it a bit I think. I seem to remember Blackberry being a girl for some reason or other? That was enough to put me off pursuing it...unless I'm thinking of a different series or something else.

I was more for Farthing Wood in the TV series line. I've watched a little more of this new one now, still not decided on what I think about it overall yet. Still annoyed about Strawberry though.

Farthing Wood's animated adaptations changed the genders of several key characters (Owl, Kestrel, Adder to name but three) and that never really bothered me, but I think what bothers me about Strawberry is that it's been done without any thought to the wider plot. In FW it doesn't really matter if Owl, Kestrel or Adder are female except that Kestrel's colouring then becomes impossible...but in WD the lack of does is critical to the plot...

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: bright rabbit 1 on December 29, 2018, 03:01:00 AM

Quote from: Taffeta on December 28, 2018, 06:13:20 AM

Quote from: Noasar on December 28, 2018, 02:50:21 AM

Quote from: Pikashoes on December 27, 2018, 11:27:14 PM

(also there was a TV series???)

Yes, it’s amazing! Although it doesn’t really stick to the plot of the book. I was obsessed with the tv series as a child!

If I remember right, didn't they gender-switch a bunch of rabbits in that as well? I never really saw it when it aired but my sister did watch it a bit I think. I seem to remember Blackberry being a girl for some reason or other? That was enough to put me off pursuing it...unless I'm thinking of a different series or something else.

I was more for Farthing Wood in the TV series line. I've watched a little more of this new one now, still not decided on what I think about it overall yet. Still annoyed about Strawberry though.

Farthing Wood's animated adaptations changed the genders of several key characters (Owl, Kestrel, Adder to name but three) and that never really bothered me, but I think what bothers me about Strawberry is that it's been done without any thought to the wider plot. In FW it doesn't really matter if Owl, Kestrel or Adder are female except that Kestrel's colouring then becomes impossible...but in WD the lack of does is critical to the plot...

Yes Blackberry was a girl in the tv series the only down point of the tv series is that season three he animation changed and it became darker than the original movie (season three of the tv series traumatised me).

How they marked the rabbits in the mini series was freaky, plus the rabbit who did it reminds me of a rabbit in the tv series. (I hope I can find pictures of the two to show how they look eerily similar.

As for the dog it was changed in the tv series, the original dog is my favourite one.

I couldn’t understand Keehar one bit in the miniseries (I’m not good with strong Scottish accents take Brave for example), original and tv series Keehar I can understand perfectly.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Einhornbaby on December 29, 2018, 04:53:23 AM

Hm...
Im a fan of the book and the animated film from back then, thats for sure. I saw the trailer and top be honest, I didnt really like the animation. I did not watch the series yet but I will do later this weekend :)

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Zapper on December 29, 2018, 05:21:48 AM

Haven't seen it yet but whenever someone complains that "it makes no sense" to have female characters I want to watch it more  :P

Spoiler

In the book they saved the farm rabbits because they needed females to breed. How does a character sex swap to have more female pressence change any of that. I guess that's why the males fight over the female. To have that patriarchal stuff from the book in tact. I remember the first book really overlooked female characters and females were mostly praised for having lots of offspring while male rabbits were leaders and priests and stuff. In nature there is no male boss rabbit of a warren so you can't even claim realism. Wild bunnies live in colonies and social order changes due to health and age, not sex. There are always dominant females along with males. So it makes all the sense in the world there would be females along with males trying to get more females for the colony. Thank El-ahrairah because otherwise there would be incest. Have fun explaining that to kids :lol:

I'm just happy for more actresses getting voice roles in things that didn't intend them to be there. Can't voice little kids forever.

Looking forward to John Boyega! I innitially wanted to watch it just for Finn as a bun bun :lol:

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Noasar on December 29, 2018, 05:46:46 AM

I agree Zapper. Having Strawberry as a female didn’t change the direction or purpose of the farm bunny plot much at all. In fact it gave it more urgency as the males were fighting over her. Olivia Coleman was brilliant. I also liked the fact that the Black Rabbit was a female. That character had much more depth than in the books and I liked the fact that the Black Rabbit wasn’t portrayed as some sort of harbinger of doom, just a natural part of life.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Taffeta on December 29, 2018, 06:05:19 AM

One of the biggest problems with forced representation (of anything) in a place it isn't originally is that it can warp the overall message it's trying to convey. It rather befuddles me that it needs pointing out, but it isn't a positive role model of women or their place in a society that one of the key reasons to have a female at the down near the start is to present two males strutting their stuff and fighting over her like she's meat.

You can easily call the original book patriarchal, but it is a book of its time, so to do that is kind of anachronistic. The story was written for his daughters so at the time it wasn't seen in that light and the daughters certainly don't consider it that way either. What was acceptable then is not necessarily the same now, but changes have to be thought out properly. It's a bigger problem if the change is actually more patriarchal. And I'm going to stick with what I said before. No does = necessity is a better message, even if it means a cast dominated by male characters. It conveys the desperation of the down and the reason for the risks they take to get the does from the farm specifically in a better way...because without does there can be no warren. Message ultimately - does essential to future of warren, thus lives risked. Rather than, "guys can't control themselves and will kill each other over the one doe so lets get them some more distractions," which is what happens the moment you gender-change one of the original travellers.

 I don't think we need to reinforce the idea that girls are there to be fought over by men.

Representation at any cost is not representation. And there are better ways to inspire young women than to change the gender of a cartoon rabbit in order for male rabbits to fight over her like an object. In my humble opinion, that is patriarchy.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: SpaceButtPonies on December 29, 2018, 09:24:04 AM

Quote

Representation at any cost is not representation. And there are better ways to inspire young women than to change the gender of a cartoon rabbit in order for male rabbits to fight over her like an object. In my humble opinion, that is patriarchy.

I mean animals do that in the wild, they fight for females like meat. Kill each other if it comes down to it. If anything having the gender change just shows the viewer on why they really need doe in their warren.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Annichen on December 30, 2018, 02:32:04 AM

Oh, god yes ! I used to be a rabbit guard  for several years looking after wild bunnies here in Norway and have had a LOT of bunnies in my family over the years. Right now I only have two but we had 8 at the most and they all live inside the house. So..of course this classic have been watched a few times and we sat down and watched the new series too. The older animated film is rather traumatic but the series is less scary and didn't make me curl up in the sofa and cry.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Noasar on December 30, 2018, 03:01:00 AM

I don’t really read too much into things like this to be honest, with regards to female representation/patriarchy. I love the book, I’ve never seen any problems with how it represents female characters. There are a lot of underying themes and messages that can be analysed and interpreted in different ways, but at the end of the day it’s a book about rabbits, where (rightly or wrongly depending on how much you know about rabbit behaviour), the male rabbits are portrayed as being the ‘chiefs’ and the dominant figures in the book. That’s just the way it’s written and I am more than ok with that, it’s my favourite book! The female characters play very important role throughout the book, they’re not just written into it to be ‘breeding machines’.

Changing the gender of Strawberry really didn’t alter the plot that much which I think is the reason I don’t care. I think I was more bothered about Hazel pining after Clover, seemingly just because she was ‘pretty’ or be pitied her, as opposed to pairing up with Hyzenthlay in the book who is a much more interesting character. But either way I really enjoyed the series, although like most apadtations it will never be as good as the book!

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Einhornbaby on December 30, 2018, 03:46:55 AM

Quote from: Einhornbaby on December 29, 2018, 04:53:23 AM

Hm...
Im a fan of the book and the animated film from back then, thats for sure. I saw the trailer and top be honest, I didnt really like the animation. I did not watch the series yet but I will do later this weekend :)

Ok, I watched it but to be honest... I didnt really like it. It was kinda ok but not really outstanding.




edit :

btw, I own a custom based on the first movie <3 She was made in 2009 by LarraChersan <3 Her name is The Blessing of El-ahrairah

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Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: tailrustedtealeaf on December 30, 2018, 09:32:46 AM

That custom is awesome!
Now that Hyzenthlay is brought up, I'm reminded how bad I feel for her. I think I would have loved to see her end up with Hazel in the new series, although it was interesting seeing what they did with Clover.
The way I interpreted the change of Strawberry was just that they wanted a way to show that they needed does, or to show the urgency. I could see why people are upset for reasons outside of loyalty to the source material, but the change didn't irk me in that way.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Beldarna on December 30, 2018, 10:40:15 PM

That custom is gorgeous! Wow!

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Charmer on December 31, 2018, 02:46:31 AM

I saw it with Aflame. I thought it was ok, though the animation didn't quite fit right...so you can do fur now? Does it matter? It's almost like they made it to show of how far we've come in the art of animation and realism. The way the rabbits hopped/moved looked odd to me. The story telling and acting was pretty good and I enjoyed that part. I think the original style and look were better though. I think just because we have improved technology
to create more realistic characters doesn't mean we should use it.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Leave a Whisper on December 31, 2018, 02:19:25 PM

Gender swapping for the sake of muh representation  is dumb, they could have easily brought along a couple of does from the Sandleford warren as they did in the movie if they desperately needed another girl.

Wasn't Strawberry from that one warren who let themselves be protected by the farmer? In fact, didn't HE lose his mate to a snare? 

 The reason the rabbits risked themselves at the farm and at Efrafa, was because they needed mates, or their fledgling warren would die out within that generation. 

I don't see it as a patriarchal thing. They're rabbits for cryin out loud! Not everything needs to be revamped as a socio-political statement. 



Post Merge: December 31, 2018, 02:31:42 PM

Quote from: Zapper on December 29, 2018, 05:21:48 AM

Haven't seen it yet but whenever someone complains that "it makes no sense" to have female characters I want to watch it more  :P

Spoiler

In the book they saved the farm rabbits because they needed females to breed. How does a character sex swap to have more female pressence change any of that. I guess that's why the males fight over the female. To have that patriarchal stuff from the book in tact. I remember the first book really overlooked female characters and females were mostly praised for having lots of offspring while male rabbits were leaders and priests and stuff. In nature there is no male boss rabbit of a warren so you can't even claim realism. Wild bunnies live in colonies and social order changes due to health and age, not sex. There are always dominant females along with males. So it makes all the sense in the world there would be females along with males trying to get more females for the colony. Thank El-ahrairah because otherwise there would be incest. Have fun explaining that to kids :lol:

I'm just happy for more actresses getting voice roles in things that didn't intend them to be there. Can't voice little kids forever.

Looking forward to John Boyega! I innitially wanted to watch it just for Finn as a bun bun :lol:

Well er...there was the lion king. Even if they didn't come out and say it. I mean, a pride is made up of related females, their cubs and sometimes brothers can rule the pride so they were definitely keeping it all in the family... so to speak. Kovu was likely the first fresh blood they'd had in a while, being adopted and all.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Beldarna on January 01, 2019, 12:09:03 AM

True to my word, I watched it last night and first impression is I liked it, a lot. There was even tears at the end. I was not bothered by the gender swap and other alterations to the story. I think it was done well, and the animation, while looking weird at the beginning was easy to get used to. What bothered me was the rabbits looking more like hares and everyone looked too similar. Except Hazel and Bigwig I had troubble telling everyone apart.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Kiwi on January 01, 2019, 05:41:01 PM

We watched it today, and I enjoyed it for it's own portrayal. Each version has changed something from the original book, but each is enjoyable in their own right. The animation was a little weird, but you get used to it. I still cried at the end, but that was a given, especially with Fiver saying goodbye to Hazel at the end. I thought it was neat how them telling the story of Hazel at the end was right from the book itself, and the tribute to Richard Adams was sweet.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: HavACrumpet452 on January 03, 2019, 10:28:20 AM

Technically, in the original they had Violet as a female when they first set out. I've watched a few chunks of the new version but I don't have a streaming service to watch it all currently. So far I'm disappointed by the lack of the dog loose in the wood. How does Hazel remember to get the farm dog in the end?

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Griffin on January 05, 2019, 12:41:42 AM

We watched it a few days ago and I guess I was pleasantly surprised - at least it made me want to read the book again! So maybe they did capture some of the spirit. :) 

I didn't like the animation style but I got used to it, at least enough to enjoy the story. The birds were rendered quite nicely but the mammals totally not. :D The dog and cat in particular were pretty awful looking, and in general, it bothers me when 3D animation attempts to look really realistic in some regards while all the movements etc. are completely unrealistic.

It's been years since I saw the original filmed version so I'm not sure how easy or difficult that is to follow. I guess four hours is better than 1,5 for capturing detail but still, I thought the miniseries could've been improved by slowing down here and there and adding some explanations, especially for the Lapine words and such. I was a bit disappointed by how Efrafa and its rabbits were presented - the practice of marking was not explained at all, for example, and basically all that you get out of it is "the officers are cruel and the Efrafans treat their does badly so they want to escape". Nothing about how and why Efrara has these peculiar rules and practices in place to begin with. Thoughout the series I got the impression that the audience are expected to know the story already. This seems to be the standard in this golden age of remakes, sequels and spinoffs!

There are quite a few other issues I could discuss (some of which have alread been brought up, such as Kehaar's accent) but these are quite insignificant in the end. Like Kiwi said, the version is enjoyable in its own right and I would recommend it, especially to someone who is familiar with the book and/or the 1978 film.

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Einhornbaby on January 11, 2019, 10:13:30 AM

I totally have to read the book again :D Its been years since last time!

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: SnorkMaiden on January 13, 2019, 08:38:03 AM

I've watched just over half of it now, but I'm still not sure whether I like it. The one thing that did occur to me is that it would have been great to have the "Guardians of Gahoole" movie in a similar style, darker and more serious, rather than turning it into such a children's / family movie. Did anyone else think that?

Title: Re: Watership Down Miniseries
Post by: Marlin on January 14, 2019, 12:09:08 PM

Hmmmm.... I have not read the source material, so already on the back foot here! But the movie was a distinct one I remember from childhood, and I have to admit, I was left feeling rather underwhelmed by this new series in many respects.

I'm not sure if that's because the film is close to my heart and set me up with a wall of prejudice straight away? I feel like I settled into the miniseries with an open mind, knowing that it would likely be very different, but if I had to compare the two (again with some uncertainty as to how each deviate from the original book) then I feel like the film was just way better. I much preferred the majority of character portrayals in the film, and the music had far more of an impact for me in the movie, too. And the animation in the miniseries... I don't get it? It was just odd.

I wouldn't have said the miniseries seemed particularly dark or scary to me (but then again, I didn't think that of the movie either, even as a child. But I was a fan of The Secret of NIMH and the Dark Crystal etc which appeared to have frightened the living daylights out of other children, so maybe *I* am just odd, lol!). I thought the tension overall was better in the film. It felt dragged out in places in the miniseries for me, especially the end climatic scene, and I didn't care for much of the token jokey dialogue in many places of the series. Much of that could have been scrapped and not been missed.

I thought perhaps (again, not knowing the book) that the series allowed more time to delve deeper into the characters, but I overall prefer the succinctness of the movie. The mini-series did have some nice moments, but as a whole, not enough for me to want to re-visit it again anytime soon, or frankly, ever.

I didn't think the mini-series dreadful. Just... meh  :huh: