The MLP Arena

TCB => Trader & Shipping Support => Topic started by: Loa on May 30, 2017, 05:31:08 PM

Title: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Loa on May 30, 2017, 05:31:08 PM
Hi everyone,

We need some help resolving an issue.

WE WILL NOT BE NAMING NAMES OR MENTIONING IDENTIFYING DETAILS. WE WILL REMOVE ANYONE WHO DOES SO.

The Arena recently ran a customs swap.

Swapper Fabulous was sending to Recipient Amazing.
Swapper Fabulous marked her customs label as being worth $50.
When Recipient Amazing went to collect her parcel from the Post Office, there was a charge of 35 Euros ($40 USD) to collect.
Recipient Amazing refused the charge, understandably, and asked for the box to be returned to sender.

The Mods have been attempting to work this situation out.
Obviously, Recipient Amazing has nothing in hand.
But, the custom cost a lot of money to ship, which Swapper fabulous will now be out of pocket again. They are also concerned that if she marks lower than $50, and it gets lost or damaged, then no one will get money back from insurance.

We have suggested:
* Halving the costs of shipping between both parties
* Working it out between both parties

We are now at a stalemate as neither has worked.

Both parties are naturally very upset, and we would like some opinions on how we can settle this fairly.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: nhal039 on May 30, 2017, 06:33:58 PM
Ugh what i headache, i can understand both points of view. In hindsite custom forms should have been laid out in the rules of the swap, values etc

At this stage there has to be some give from both parties otherwise no one is going to win. Really spilting post costs and writing a low value on the declaration is the only way i see forward. That way costs are known in advance, the reciever also knows and therefore accepts resoniblity that should damage occur (assuming the custom is packed apropiately) that there is no insurance and that is there loss.

There is no win solution here without involving others. Depending on countries you could see if someone is heading to that part of the world (ie my dad goes r
To the uk frequently so i give him parcels to post for me in the uk) so could post the parcel within the recieves country but this is complaicated and places risk on the 3rd party too
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: jrr74 on May 30, 2017, 07:54:10 PM
What an unfortunate situation.  What is it that the receiver wants? 

I agree with what nhal039 says foremost, but there are other possibilities I guess.

1) auction/sell the custom and give proceeds to Recipient Amazing

2) with regards to splitting the cost, I am going to take an educated guess that it was $22.50 to ship.  To ship again, we are now talking $45.00 total which is a crapload of money.  What if we take up a collection to help right this situation?  I would throw in a few dollars.  I buy stupid things all of the time so why not put it towards a good cause.  It would be my good deed for the day.  With that being said, mark item as a gift, because that's what it is.  Everyone involved traded gifts basically.  Then value it at $9.00 for cost of materials.  I realize if it gets lost, you are out the value of your work but it is not going to happen any other way.  If its against arena rules to do a collection, we are back to splitting the difference, but I would take into account the amount that Recipient Amazing paid to mail his/her custom.  And done *exit stage left*

Actually, not done.  Just a little note, you can ship two pounds worth of items for the same price as anything greater than 8 ounces. Of course we still run into the value of item for insurance purposes but if you stick to some cheap baits or whatever your guilty inexpensive pleasure is, then hopefully not much money would be lost if said package was to get lost.   

Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Juliepants on May 31, 2017, 12:22:50 AM
Hmmm.... really we as recipients should pay our own customs fees. Sorry if that's not the answer the recipient wants to hear but it is the truth.

Jules x
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Libelle on May 31, 2017, 01:11:57 AM
Here is my opinion, i.e. the opinion of somebody located in Germany/Europe who has to deal with import duties and taxes regularly where swaps and purchases are concerned. ;) 

I'm guessing it's a parcel sent from the USA to Europe. Looking at the list of participants, the recipient must be located either in Spain or in Belgium.

I'm a bit surprised about the amount of 40 USD. With a maximum VAT of 21% (for Spain and Belgium) the shipping costs would have had to have been 150 USD to generate 40 USD of taxes. If, like jrr74 guessed, shipping was only 22.50 USD, taxes would have been 15.23 USD. Adding charges for handling and storing the parcel, the amount should have been around 20 USD.

I've done a bit of online research: Apparently, in Spain, there are added charges of 23.22 Euros to manage a DUA (Unique Administrative Document). This would explain the discrepancy. I haven't been able to find out what a DUA is. However, if the DUA is a regular requirement, then those charges should have been something that the recipient should have expected just like the taxes and handling fees.

In this case the recipient should have accepted the parcel and paid the charges in the first place. As hard as it is, any costs that have now arisen should be settled by the recipient.


In my opinion, there is only one reason why the recipient should be allowed to refuse a parcel and not be required to pay the charges, namely when the sender has exceeded the swap limit in a manner not to be expected by the recipient. (That being said, a huge problem that I see is that there is no mention at all about swap limits or values in the rules of this particular swap.)

I'll give you an example of my own where I believe this was the case: In one of the Ornament Swaps I received a box with a value of over 4 times the swap limit and exorbitant shipping costs. I paid even more on taxes than the recipient in this case. There was no way that I could have expected that my partner would go that crazy with spending. (FYI: I was furious, but paid up and didn't mention the incident until now.)

Imported goods always generate VAT and/or duties in European countries once the combined costs of (1) value of the items sent and (2) shipping costs exceed a certain limit. In Spain, this limit is 45 Euros (50 USD) between private individuals.

In my opinion, two questions arise: Was is reasonable to expect the combined costs of (1) value of the item and (2) shipping to go beyond 45 Euros / 50 USD for this swap or not?

With shipping being around 22.50 USD this leaves about 25 USD for the value of the custom. Is a value of above 25 USD reasonable for this kind of swap? If the pony community says 'yes', then the recipient should have been aware of all taxes and additional costs.


Is a value of 50 USD for the custom reasonable for this kind of swap?

If the pony community says 'yes', then the recipient should have expected these exact taxes and carry all the costs that have arisen.


ETA:

In hindsite custom forms should have been laid out in the rules of the swap, values etc

That's what I'm struggling with as well. (FYI: I've never participated in a custom swap.) What if the recipient was a custom-swap-newbie? Is a value of 50 USD for a custom in a custom swap average or not? If not average, can it be considered as within the limits of a custom swap? *scratches head*
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: jrr74 on May 31, 2017, 05:05:09 AM
I just wanted to say that I am very impressed with Libelle's thoroughly thought out response.  With that being said, Libelle's opinion will not sit well with the recipient because he/she would now be responsible for the shipping along with any fees associated with the item.  The sender on the other hand, unless they did mark the item for more than the max value allowed (if this does exist) should not hold any further responsibility.   Let's say that you do start a collection to cover the shipping fees, would the recipient be willing to cover fees if the item was marked down in value?  Maybe others in the swap who only had to ship local would throw in a few bucks.  IDK?   
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: banditpony on May 31, 2017, 05:39:35 AM
My question is did the receiver send back the package WITHOUT discussing options with the host and/or mods beforehand?

Is the receiver ok with the risks involved with marked below value if/when package is resent.

And was $50 overvalued? 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Libelle on May 31, 2017, 10:15:59 AM
Libelle's opinion will not sit well with the recipient

Sorry! *hides behind sofa* I am not intentionally 'siding against' the recipient. :hug: This is an altogether awful situation. However, in my understanding it is Arena policy that swap-participants are responsible for taking taxes and duties into account before signing up for swaps ...  just like swap-participants are responsible for taking costs for international shipping into account before signing up for swaps.

--------------------------------------

That being said, I made two mistakes in my comment above (I wished Spanish customs had a website in English explaining everything in detail. The info should be here (http://www.agenciatributaria.es/AEAT.internet/en_gb/Inicio/La_Agencia_Tributaria/La_Agencia_Tributaria.shtml), but I cannot find it.):

1st mistake: Forget about the DUA in this case.

2nd mistake: There is a threshold of 45 € (~ 50 USD). 21 % import tax will have to be paid for any gifts send to Spain exceeding 45 € (~ 50 USD) in value. However, contrary to what I wrote above, postage/shipping is not included in the 45 €. (What I wrote above only applies to merchandise/goods.)

If the sender marked the MLP custom as 50 USD in value, they probably only just crossed that threshold of 45 €. (What a bummer!)

But I still don't understand about the 35 € (~ 40 USD) charges? 21 % of 45 € would be 9.45 € (~ 10.50 USD). Add 5 € for processing/handling, and we are at 15 € (~ 16.85 USD). :shrug:

-----------------------------------------

Let's say that you do start a collection to cover the shipping fees, would the recipient be willing to cover fees if the item was marked down in value?  Maybe others in the swap who only had to ship local would throw in a few bucks.  IDK?   

Oh, I like that idea! Actually, if the item was marked down in value a bit and sent again, there shouldn't be any taxes/duties. If the item was marked down to, let's say, 45 USD ... and the recipient agreed to carry the insurance risk in case the parcel got lost or damaged ... and there was a collection to meet the shipping costs for a second time around ... would this be a solution? In any case, the recipient would need to inquire about taxes/duties beforehand (in order to confirm what I've just written) and instruct both sender and mods to make sure everything worked out fine this time around.

Again, I'm so sorry, this has happened!
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: jrr74 on May 31, 2017, 11:04:06 AM
Maybe the post office read the value as $150.  Did the recipient question the charges?  I would like to know the breakdown of how a 45 € charge came to be.  You take the value of the gift plus shipping and get $72.50.  That $50 dollars is now 69% of that total value.  Now if it was misread and someone thought item was marked at $150 plus shipping, that additional $50 charge is only *rolls eyes* 29% of the value.  It is highway robbery over there

as for you Libelle, what you wrote is very much true so no need to apologize or hide behind the couch, it is what it is.  I never once thought of you as siding against the recipient.  I simply tip-toe too much around those I don't know.  My friends, if they make a mistake, are going to know about it.  I see it as an learning opportunity.  Unless of course they are down on their luck, then I just minimize the whole thing :biggrin:

Conclusion-with all that was said, we can 1-sell the custom and send money to recipient.  Stupid, and yet, reasonable given the circumstances.  2-resend customized pony at recipients expense  (or do the collection thing) with a decrease marked value to keep under threshold.  This is really only a a no-no when someone is actually purchasing from another individual because it protects the seller.  Since no money was swapped, I see no harm.  And don't forget, if shipping was indeed $22.50, you can mail a package weighing up to 2 pounds for the same price.  That last piece is my silver lining. 

To the mods and involved parties, I wish you all the best of luck in that an amicable settlement is arranged
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Galactica on May 31, 2017, 11:21:42 AM
I think customs made a mistake and read the value in Euros instead of USD.  I have seen this happen a LOT on a doll group I belong to. If the recipient calls or shows up in person, they will adjust the fee.  I know that is not helpful for the current situation, but in the future the recipient should consider. 

In terms of marking the value of the custom- that's a tough one.  Generally, a recipient should be expected to pay customs fees right?  But where did the $50 value come from?  Was it because the package was insured?  If the recipient wants a value of $0, are they also willing to bear the risk of loss if the package goes astray? I guess that is difficult to work out in advance- but maybe something that could be considered with future swaps that could involve people from various places.

As for solutions? err... I like the idea of selling Custom one and sending proceeds to Recipient.  Or holding a raffle.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Ponyfan on May 31, 2017, 11:42:42 AM
This must be a very frustrating issue for both parties. I have also assumed that any import/custom fees on a swap box are the recipient's responsibility but no one likes getting told about extra fees when you go to pick up a package. I wonder if this was the first time both parties had shipped/recieved internationally before and maybe that is where some of the shock and surprise at the extra fees came from. 

Maybe in future swaps there can be a section with tips for completing a customs form if you are shipping internationally.

I don't have any new ideas to try to add. Halving the cost between Amazing and Fabulous for reshipping /fees or taking up a collection for the fees from the other swap participants so that Amazing can have the pony that Fabulous made for them seem like good ideas.


Ponyfan
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Skeen on May 31, 2017, 11:58:11 AM
This happened once before in a swap I hosted a few years ago.  After speaking to the mods at the time, it was decided the sender should pay the customs fee or the receiver needed to refuse the package. 


Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Libelle on May 31, 2017, 01:13:16 PM
it was decided the sender should pay the customs fee

But why was this even considered to be an option? Was the sender at fault in any way (over-declaring an item, failing to provide an accurate/complete/any customs form ...). If not, I don't believe this is fair.

I have never asked any swap partner to pay (i.e. refund) any customs fees / import taxes / duties. Just like I have never asked a seller to pay (i.e. refund) any customs fees / import taxes / duties. If you are living in Europe you know that you will have to pay those, there is no way around it.

Goodness, this sounds terribly harsh. Please, keep in mind that I belong to the group of people having to pay those fees/taxes/duties as well. ;)
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: shelvesofwhimsy on May 31, 2017, 01:20:44 PM
it was decided the sender should pay the customs fee

But why was this even considered to be an option? Was the sender at fault in any way (over-declaring an item, failing to provide an accurate/complete/any customs form ...). If not, I don't believe this is fair.

I have never asked any swap partner to pay (i.e. refund) any customs fees / import taxes / duties. Just like I have never asked a seller to pay (i.e. refund) any customs fees / import taxes / duties. If you are living in Europe you know that you will have to pay those, there is no way around it.

Goodness, this sounds terribly harsh. Please, keep in mind that I belong to the group of people having to pay those fees/taxes/duties as well. ;)


I think this is one of those impossible questions to answer, since at this point there is no super "fair" way to resolve the issue.

@Libelle I agree that that solution doesn't sound fair :( If I had any customs fees I would just accept them and pay them.


The only suggestion I can make is that the Sender resends the package with a lower custom value - pays fees, and the recipient splits the cost with them.

And that the recipient pays any new custom fees for the package. (which will hopefully be lower)



I know its too late, but if only they had accepted the package and maybe asked for the customs fees to be split with the sender somehow.

Either way its a impossible situation with no easy answer.

Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Carrehz on May 31, 2017, 01:49:05 PM
Honestly, I'm with Juliepants on this one. I buy a LOT of stuff from overseas and yeah it's a bummer when something gets hit with customs charges, but I just pay up and move on with life. I get being upset by an unexpected charge but I don't really think there's anything else that can be done at this point - either they accept that they'll have to pay charges OR the sender re-sends it with a false customs declaration and the recipient accepts that they run the risk of something happened to it. Like nhal039 said, _someone_ is gonna have to lose out here, unfortunately :(
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Skeen on May 31, 2017, 02:08:04 PM
I think this solution in the case I mentioned was because the partners were in a round swap, and the receiver wasn't the person who sent something to the sender.  Receiver, in this case, got nothing at all until the fee was paid (she had already sent a different person a box and paid int'l postage on it), while sender had gotten her package from her other partner and was, technically, out nothing since the package she got was of equal value to the one she sent.  It wasn't exactly the same situation, but the question of who should pay is the same.   

I don't necessarily have an opinion, I just wanted to say this isn't the first time this has happened and since it has happened before it's a good idea to have swap organizers specify who is going to pay customs fees up front, one way or the other (if not made into an Arena-wide rule, that is). 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Loa on May 31, 2017, 02:42:54 PM
My question is did the receiver send back the package WITHOUT discussing options with the host and/or mods beforehand?

Unfortunately, yes.

Quote
Is the receiver ok with the risks involved with marked below value if/when package is resent.
Not really. Swapper Fabulous marked it appropriately for the skill and materials, not to mention cost of replacement.

Quote
And was $50 overvalued? 

No.


Maybe in future swaps there can be a section with tips for completing a customs form if you are shipping internationally.
Ponyfan

We are actually thinking this may be incorporated.



I think the community donation/fundraising may be an ultimate solution, but it would have to be a one off. We cannot ask the community to do this everytime! ;)
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Libelle on May 31, 2017, 03:41:07 PM
Loa, were you able to find out whether the 35 € had been calculated correctly? I imagine there must be a mistake. Within the European Union, VAT must not exceed 25% (the average is, I believe, 20%). 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: LadyMoondancer on May 31, 2017, 03:46:25 PM
Wow, what a complicated and unfortunate situation.  One of the hurdles is that the assumption in swaps is that everyone is getting / sending things worth about the same amount, and therefore everyone spends about the same amount of money.  But with international shipping thrown in, the receiver (who probably had to pay international shipping to ship their own swap creation) was essentially asked to pay twice (?) as much as everyone else.  But it's understandable that the sender marked their item with the appropriate $$ amount too.

If I were the receiver in this situation, I would probably ask the sender to undervalue the pony on the customs form and send it again.  (Maybe the sender and receiver could each pay half the shipping this go around?  I dunno.)  Yeah, there is a risk that it would be lost in the mail, but really . . . that hardly ever happens.  At least the receiver would have a CHANCE of getting something, whereas right now they have nothing.  ROLL THE DICE.  As the receiver, I would also agree not to go after the sender if (worst case scenario) the custom WAS lost or damaged in the mail.

If the receiver isn't willing to take such a risk, then I'm not sure what is to be done.  It's not fair that they might get hit with customs fees, but it's also not specifically anyone's fault . . . It's not fair to ask the sender to pay the fees.  It's not really fair to ask the sender to cover the entire cost of shipping again either, IMO.

I do think laying out ground rules for this kind of situation in advance, for future swaps, is a great idea.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: banditpony on May 31, 2017, 04:39:56 PM
My question is did the receiver send back the package WITHOUT discussing options with the host and/or mods beforehand?

Unfortunately, yes.

Quote
Is the receiver ok with the risks involved with marked below value if/when package is resent.
Not really. Swapper Fabulous marked it appropriately for the skill and materials, not to mention cost of replacement.

Quote
And was $50 overvalued? 

No.


If the receiver wants it valued at the same price then they are likely to get hit with the same fees AND the sender has to pay $$$ for the shipping! What sense did that make? Even worse, return shipping for items are more likely to get damaged/lost.

But I agree with Libelle and it seems like the charges seem strangely high...

ETA:
I guess in my opinion, the receiver should pay for cost of re-shipping it... and they should pay whatever fees they incur. It's not nice, but the sender didn't do anything wrong. And the receiver should know they are responsible for fees of importing items of a certain value into their country.

My opinion is neither right nor wrong.  >_<
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Loa on May 31, 2017, 04:57:41 PM
Yes, you can all see why Mod wages are paid in chocolate and wine!
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: banditpony on May 31, 2017, 05:12:32 PM
Yes, you can all see why Mod wages are paid in chocolate and wine!
:wine: :choc: :wine: :choc:

I hope the sender/receiver are able to come up with a resolution. It's a no win situation for both parties, that's for sure.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: tulagirl on May 31, 2017, 05:23:06 PM
I even with reading can t seem to get a clear picture of what this swaps max spending limit was.  I think this is key.
 Okay so am I to understand that for certain this swap had a spending max of 50.00 set by the swap host before the swap began?  If it was not set by the host at 50.00 and was less, then the custom should be marked at the swap maximum. The recipient should then be aware of fees before joining such a swap. I feel if they knew beforehand the max to be spent making a custom, they should pay their fees. If the max was not 50.00 and the sender feels their custom is worth that they should keep in mind the swap limit and not send a pony over the swap set amount.  This is my thought if this swap had a limit at all which it should have had.

  If I was the sender I would not pay to resend a swap box that was sent back to me over a value problem. That is not fair. The receiver should have gotten their box and then notified a mod for help with the customs and taxes.  Honestly. When you get in a swap you have to be willing to accept what comes with it.  If a recipient rejects their swap box and, it is determined the sender did not over value based on swap levels then to me..the receiver has rejected their swap box of their own choice and it should not have to be resent.  I know this sounds harsh, but the problem here is a box was rejected before a resolution could be made. That was the receivers decision.  The forum should not have to donate funds for this.  We have shipping to do all over again here.  If sender wants to ship again, receiver should help with this cost because, they rejected their box.  If they did not know it was a swap box then I am at a loss.  If there was not a limit on spending for this swap then i would say yea..then maybe the forum should help as there were not guidelines set for those making customs and the values of each custom made.  If you put a price on your own custom and have that kind of freedom in a swap then this can happen.  It is not fair for a receiver to have to pay for an expensive custom when there was no guideline for them to know ahead of time what would happen with customs and taxes.  Especially so if any given custom could be valued at any given amount in the swap.  So a limit should be a guideline and should be set on all swaps.


 Also, I was thinking that if this is the first time just this set of circumstances have occurred in this way without any forum rules set, then that would be another reason that at this one time some help from the forum could be useful.  Then rules can be set so that if it happens again everyone in a swap will know the guidelines.

I usually help with fees in my private swaps, but not in forum swaps.  A gift isn't a gift if you have to buy it, but in a forum swap you would discuss your customs max.  I always have in forum swaps. Sorry for both as I hate this situation and know my opinion will be unpopular.  I am very sorry for both of these people involved.  I hate it when a swap has issues and people are unhappy, but in this situation no one is going to really be super happy with the outcome unless someone is totally willing to eat it for the sake of their swap and do what they don't want to do. :huh:  So, I think I read someone said that basically there were two options before with a swap problem.  I think those two options do still fit in this case too depending on how the swap was set up in the first place.

I admit I have never done a customs swap and levels of experience make this hard to set a limit, but don't  you think that having a limit just open to everyone's interpretation however accurate it may be can cause issues? Ugg and here we are with one. Sigh -_-

If you are in a situation where two people don't want to do anything to fix this and are stuck in their position then, what can you do?  A compromise should be expected depending on the facts.

If I am just posting something others have posted it was not intended. These are my thoughts.  If they are similar to someone else's then that was minds thinking alike I guess.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Carrehz on May 31, 2017, 06:05:51 PM
I like the idea of setting down rules to prevent this sort of thing in future, that sounds like it could come in handy.

I will say though, that whenever I buy internationally, I accept that there's a chance I'll have to pay extra. The two swaps I've entered, I did so with the knowledge that I might have to pay more to ship overseas. IMO if you're not okay with either of those, then don't enter swaps that involve international shipping.

Just.. gah, this is such a tough situation to be in, for everyone involved. :( Why do things like this have to happen...
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Honeycomb on May 31, 2017, 10:13:18 PM
I think the problem is that with a custom swap, people don't expect a custom to be worth so much money. And IMHO, it should not be marked as such on the customs form. A custom is only worth what people are WILLING to pay for it, and as it was a swap and the recipient has not really ordered a specifically priced pony from a famous customizer, in my opinion it was the sender's mistake to write this amount on the form.
If I had been in the shoes of the recipient, I would have refused to pay too.
It's a very different situation if the recipient had actually ordered a pony knowing the value was 50 USD and that would have been the price he or she had paid. Then it is the recipient's responsibility to pay further custom charges.
But in this case, I totally understand why he or she is so upset and refused to pay.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: banditpony on June 01, 2017, 02:54:07 AM
I think the problem is that with a custom swap, people don't expect a custom to be worth so much money. And IMHO, it should not be marked as such on the customs form. A custom is only worth what people are WILLING to pay for it, and as it was a swap and the recipient has not really ordered a specifically priced pony from a famous customizer, in my opinion it was the sender's mistake to write this amount on the form.
If I had been in the shoes of the recipient, I would have refused to pay too.
It's a very different situation if the recipient had actually ordered a pony knowing the value was 50 USD and that would have been the price he or she had paid. Then it is the recipient's responsibility to pay further custom charges.
But in this case, I totally understand why he or she is so upset and refused to pay.

Totally understand where you are coming from. I don't think the package should of been marked more then the bait + materials (time value should be donated/free, as it was a gift).

However, according to Loa, the receiver is not comfortable with the item being marked lower... So they want it marked up at $50.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: tulagirl on June 01, 2017, 06:04:02 AM
I think the problem is that with a custom swap, people don't expect a custom to be worth so much money. And IMHO, it should not be marked as such on the customs form. A custom is only worth what people are WILLING to pay for it, and as it was a swap and the recipient has not really ordered a specifically priced pony from a famous customizer, in my opinion it was the sender's mistake to write this amount on the form.
If I had been in the shoes of the recipient, I would have refused to pay too.
It's a very different situation if the recipient had actually ordered a pony knowing the value was 50 USD and that would have been the price he or she had paid. Then it is the recipient's responsibility to pay further custom charges.
But in this case, I totally understand why he or she is so upset and refused to pay.

The thing is though we have no idea what kind of swapper this is.  A lot of us have been internationally swapping for years and, we kind of know that a customs form on a swap should not exceed a certain amount.  What is this swapper does not know this?  There was a time I didn't know.  Then again what if they do and it is because, with the swap guidelines there was no maximum value and customs requirement guidelines set?  Then how is it unfair for an artist to interpret their value and send what they feel is the value?  I agree that we should not include in value our time on a swap, but is that the standard protocol for these types of swaps?  Did anyone discuss this prior to entering the swap?  If it is just a known thing, then how can we assume people should all know it?  Certainly it makes sense why the box was refused if there was no prior guideline.  To me this is what makes this situation unfair at the basic level. 

Now that the sender knows these custom values are too high, the fair thing to do would be to compromise at this point for the sake of their swap box. The sender knows they have fees now so the fair thing to do is compromise and pay some of their fees as it customary in all swaps that involve international shipping.

Sender could offer to pay half the shipping back and half the fees.
The Recipient would then pay the other half of shipping and half the fees.
Both parties refuse to hold either responsible for loss of package.
People on the Arena could certainly offer to help if guidelines were not set by the swap host.  I say this because, I have no idea what kind of custom swap this is, to make a pony or customize a bait.  There are a few different types of customs swaps I have seen on this forum.  I don't know what the rules were on this swap at all.

This is the only equal compromise I can think of.  It is not really fair to me in one sense because, there are still a lot of unknowns about the guidelines and communication with swappers ahead of time about country taxes and fees which we can't assume everyone knows.  It isn't fair to me that anyone have to pay for taxes and fees in a swap-either sending or recipient.  The thing is this has already been done.  Something has to give I guess. 

This is what I would do for my partner and then consider it a lesson learned not to get in a swap where the value on a form can be freely decided by each individual swapper and not set by a guideline (meaning what your spending max so a decision can be made whether to enter or not enter a swap ahead of time due to fees).  Keep in mind it is against the law to lie about value on a customs form.  It is just with a customs swap this is a gray area.  Only the moderators can decide what the guidelines should be in the future for this kind of swap. 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Taffeta on June 01, 2017, 09:52:13 AM
In terms of customs fees in general, much as I hate them, I agree with Juliepants and Carrehz. I have paid two this past month, one for a pony and one for Japanese stuff for my research. But I accept that as part and parcel of buying overseas.

Things that influence the fee include changing currency rates against each other, as well.

It is hard to answer fairly on this without knowing the countries involved (as different countries have different rules) and also the circumstances of the people (for example, did the recipient refuse the item because they could not afford the fee, or was it a case that they didn't think they ought to pay a fee on this item).

A buyer is liable for their fees. The recipient here is not a buyer. However, the seller was trying to protect the item, and probably didn't know about the fees.

I think the recipient made a mistake by not paying the fee and then challenging it here through the community or moderators to reach an agreement with the sender. The cost of the fee alone is annoying, but doing it this way doesn't negate the possibility of more fees or shipping issues if the item is resent, but also incurs another shipping charge. The only winners in that equation are the shipping companies, NOT the two people who should be really enjoying the swap - sender and recipient. So I think that was a mistake, and I mention that because for future reference it makes things much more crazy.

But the recipient may not have ahd the money for the fee. And that;s why I say it's hard to be really clear.

In any case, I think probably the recipient is somewhat liable for the reshipping cost. I would agree with the suggestion of splitting it down the middle.

For the record, even marking it gift doesn't necessarily omit the possibility of fees. If the sender did mark it gift, and valued it at $50 to protect it, then I don't think they did anything wrong. The value of a custom is subjective and that amount in another country's currency fluctuates according to exchange rates anyway. I have had people mark up things I've bought to almost double the price paid because of their "imagination" of what it is "worth", but this isn't one of those cases. No money exchanged hands here, so nobody can legitimately "value" this item - it has not been sold, thus its value is unproven.

If the recipient had not refused it, it would be much easier to respond to this. I would say that in that case, if the sender marked it as gift, the recipient is liable as they are responsible for the fees at their country's border. If the sender marked it anything other than gift, they are essentially misleading the authorities at the receipient's border (even if not deliberately) and thus they would be liable in my view for the fees.

Refusing the item for me was the biggest issue in this equation. I would suggest that definitely swaps in future have guidelines for this, also how to fill in a custom form legally and responsibly as well as accurately...but that participants be strongly advised in the case of a fee to not refuse the package, and instead to pay the fee and approach moderators if they feel there's something that needs to be settled.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on June 01, 2017, 05:33:15 PM
I'm surprised there were no rules concerning international participants in this particular swap.  All the other active swaps on the Swap subforum (except one, presuming it's the one in question) have explicit rules concerning international shipping - mostly the rule seems to be, if you can't afford to ship or accept the customs fees for your incoming box, then don't join the swap.  I don't know how to word that tactfully. :(  I think this whole opinion of mine is going to be super harsh in the minds of the participants but I have NO IDEA who they are and so these thoughts aren't personal.  Sorry! 

And what collector who lives outside the USA hasn't sadly realized that it's a truly expensive hobby?  Shipping costs, lack of people who ship to your country, insurance and tracking for parcels, customs fees when importing, etc....  It almost feels like international collectors are being punished for not being in the USA.  :( 

And as pointed out, nobody who creates customized ponies is just going to slap it in a thin box and fling it towards the Postal Gods. No, you pack meticulously, you add bubble wrap, you box inside a box, you value the box for its replacement cost, you put insurance and tracking on it.  I would think a value of $50 USD would be a starting point for a customs swap, simply because you're dealing with OOAK art in a very volatile situation. 

What to do now...?  Definitely give Sender positive feedback for this swap, they did not do anything wrong. 

I guess it depends on what Recipient is receptive to - if they promise to pay the customs fees upon re-send, then maybe the community could take up a small collection to re-ship the pony.  Absolutely under no circumstances should Sender be paying ANYTHING a second time!  If they are adamantly refusing that they don't want to pay this fee and it seems to be a circular conversation that they want "FREE PONY", I don't think they can complete the swap to satisfaction. Yes they made a custom and shipped it, but that's only half.  The other half of the swap is not entangling your partner  in drama, not refusing their parcel, and then not letting the mods know that there are issues to be resolved  :( 

I completely agree with others that refusing a package in an international swap should be grounds for not participating in future international swaps.  At the very least, a recipient can find out what the fees will be, then contact the mods and say, "I wasn't expecting a $100 bill to accept my swap box" and you have like 48 hours to refuse the item.  But just flat-out refusing it, sending it back and approaching the swap leaders as if there isn't a problem you need to resolve... yeah don't do that!!!

Taxes, customs and fees are NO FAIR and NO FUN but they are unfortunately part of collecting, especially if you live outside the USA.  :(
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Vertefae on June 01, 2017, 05:57:11 PM
May I ask how much it cost to ship the package? I'm not sure it's fair to ask the sender to pay shipping again with how much it's been raised in the US lately.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: lunar_scythe on June 01, 2017, 06:48:52 PM
Was the recipient aware that they may be paired with an international shipper?  If they were, then to me, they should be aware of the possibility of customs fees.

Did the sender mark the package as a gift?  Swaps *are* essentially gifts, as no money is exchanging hands, and it helps keep fees down to a reasonable amount.


As far as solutions go, how about  a raffle or a pair of auctions to raise the funds? the prizes could be two customs, one from each of the 2, and anything extra after the cost of re shipping the custom and paying the fees could either be split between the two, or donated to the arena?  That way neither one is out extra money,  just time and the resources(I am assuming a basic custom, no sculpting, just repaint and rehair) to make the custom.

Maybe the Arena could even give them permission to do the Arena Pony?
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: tulagirl on June 01, 2017, 07:35:57 PM
It is expensive to ship.  Like I spend just 22.00 to ship a light weight item to the UK.  The reason is here in my neck of the woods anything over 1/4 inch tall at any point in the mailer goes box rate.  Then you have the weight and it determines the price also.  Then you have the issue of feeling like in a swap you must send with additional tracking besides just the customs form to cover yourself.  This includes extra insurance.  When you are in a swap the last thing you want is for the item to not get to your partner.  It is very difficult.  If extras were included which I don't know it could have been over 25.00.  I have easily sent swap boxes to people in other countries and paid 50.00 or more USA dollars to send them.    So, it is very expensive.  No one is going to ship a swap pony without care..especially a custom as they can be ruined easily.  I would have to guess that this sender used a box.  That is only a guess. I totally agree with what has been said about the refusal of the swap box. This is worth consideration. Then again this all  boils down to guidelines and was there any and did this member know about their customs fees and such?  How long have they been swapping?  There are so many things we do not know.  So, that is why it is hard for me to know just what circumstances were going on with this recipient.  Maybe they just flat didn't have that extra money.  Maybe they had no choice but to let it go. I have been there.  It is just that when one enters a swap they need to know they will have customs taxes in fees.  There is so much money involved in swaps that is not what the upfront costs are when you enter the swap with a maximum amount.  It is crazy what shipping costs now.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Stormy31685 on June 01, 2017, 07:57:38 PM
As someone who ships internationally on an almost daily basis, here are my thoughts:

Any insurance purchased through the USPS is honestly not going to cover a customized my little pony.  Last I checked, you need to have extensive, verifiable proof (from a professional appraiser of toys) that an item is worth what it is insured for.  Based on that, if I were the sender or receiver in this swap, I would be willing to agree to this:

Sender and recipient agree to split the cost of the reship with the understanding that the sender will mark the customs form so as not to incur any additional fees and ship without insurance.  And recipient will agree that seller is relieved of any responsibility due to damage or loss in transit, but that sender may agree to remake said custom if damage occurs for a discounted amount.

It is a shame this happened because for all the trouble it seems like it might have been more cost effective to just split the customs fee.

I am sorry for both involved and hope this gets worked out.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: jrr74 on June 01, 2017, 08:09:27 PM
Has the issue been resolved yet?  How badly does the recipient want the custom; is he/she willing to pay any sort of fee?  If so, what would be an acceptable amount?  Is that amount doable/fair to the sender?  Is the sender even willing to help cover fees (re-shipping, taxes)? Since it sounds like there were no clear rules laid out, neither party can be held accountable for this dilemma.  The whole situation, as stressful as it has been to the involved parties, should be chalked up to experience with no hard feelings between the two (hopefully).  Neither were being malicious.  We have had very little knowledge to go off of but I feel every aspect and angle has been touched upon.  I really don't think there are any more options out there, and so this must go back to the involved parties to decide what they want to do.  There is no wrong or right here, just a lesson to be learned. 
 
Good luck you two!
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Libelle on June 02, 2017, 03:13:29 AM
In my opinion, when you swap internationally, there is a duty of care involved on both sides. I have a written list of the steps I need to perform when preparing / receiving a swap box. Based on that, I have drawn up a list of possible guidelines for future swaps. The necessary steps are in chronological order. What do you think? Any feedback is welcome! ^.^ Dear mods, feel free to stop the discussion if you believe this is getting off topic. ;)

Both sender and recipient:

The sender:

The recipient:

* Sticky transparent foil or transparent plastic bags are your friend.
** Post offices and customs offices might return parcels to the sender after a period of time if nobody has fetched the parcel. (For example, post offices in Germany return parcels after a week.) Moreover, post offices and customs offices might charge fees for storing the parcel. (For example, my local customs office in Germany charges 50 Cent a day for storage.)

Phew. *wipes brow*
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Carrehz on June 02, 2017, 11:00:39 AM
I should add - unless I'm mistaken, even if a package is marked as a gift, if the marked value goes over the limit, they'll still charge you. (Postage cost can be a factor, too) So that's not a way of getting around it unless it's marked way under the limit, which, again, neither of them seem to be willing to do :s.

It really is a risk you have to take, though. Like, I bought an itsy bitsy Steven Universe figure off eBay the other day, literally about the size of my thumb, and I got custom charges for that. It sucks but that's how it is when you shop internationally, unfortunately :/.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Taffeta on June 02, 2017, 03:23:16 PM
As annoying as it is for all of us in countries with import duty and custom fees on buying pony items (yes, it does feel like we are being punished for our location), it isn't the fault of someone living in or sending from the US that the US doesn't have the same fee charging situation that many of our countries do.

I like Libelle's steps, I think they make sense, though most of them are common sense.

Hearing about people refusing packages because of fees also doesn't help us international buyers in the battle to persuade more sellers and traders to ship overseas. It reignites that idea that we are all going to create a fuss over it, which frankly bothers me a bit. It's enough of a struggle to conduct international transactions these days. Bad enough we have to pay the fees -worse though if people stop shipping internationally because they are afraid of drama like this over the custom fees.

It needs to be remembered that the people making the charge are the border force of the recipient's country. It has nothing to do with the sender although the way the sender filled in the custom form may have impacted on why it was noticed or how much the charge ended up being. Gift items do get charges too.

If the recipient had received the item, we would know if the form was marked gift or merchandise or whatever. If it were marked merchandise when it clearly isn't, I think that the recipient would have a case through the mods to get the fee at least partially refunded by the sender. But I don't see why the seller should have to pay another shipping fee on the item. They are not liable to resend an item the recipient already refused to receive. In either case it seems like much more money will have to be spent to resolve this than would have been if the recipient had paid the fee and then consulted the mods for advice.

If the recipient's reasons for refusal were lack of funds, then the above may be a bit harsh, and if that is the case, I apologise for that. Without knowing personal circs, its hard to make any other assessment than a clinical generic one. It is just that I am fed up with people having to write in big letters about international people being responsible for the fees, like they've had trouble over this in the past. I also know there are plenty of people here who do not ship internationally because they think that this kind of drama might erupt over fees. I want to buy and sell internationally without that stigma, so stories like this bother me.

I think it's just common sense that if you receive a package from overseas you might get a custom charge. It's a not fair and not pleasant reality of international trading, and it means we pay a lot more for the same things as most US collectors have - but that isn't the fault of the US collectors. It's our borders and our customs authorities that do that to us, not the people we buy or trade ponies with.

This is not a purchase situation, but if you sent a trade lot and valued it at $50, how would that differ from this example? In that instance, the community wouldn't be footing the bill for shipping or fees, and the recipient would be expected to just take the fees and deal with them. I don't see why it would be different in the case of a swap.

Custom pony values are, as I said before, subjective, and I think fairly irrelevant in this case. If you are international and involved in a swap, custom fees are just part and parcel for me.

So in this instance if the two parties can work together to split the shipping, that would be great. But I am not totally convinced the sender is really enough at fault here to foot the bill for the whole lot.

The sad thing is that the fun element of the swap has now been tainted by all of this, and even if the recipient gets their pony and it is resolved, I wonder whether the whole effort will ultimately have been worth it or not. Whatever we all say here, the most important thing is to find a solution that leaves both parties the most happy, and asking us only goes so far. It really needs to come from the people involved, so that the nice part of the swap feeling can be salvaged and everyone is as happy as is possible at the end of it.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Libelle on June 03, 2017, 01:10:02 AM
Hearing about people refusing packages because of fees also doesn't help us international buyers in the battle to persuade more sellers and traders to ship overseas. It reignites that idea that we are all going to create a fuss over it, which frankly bothers me a bit. It's enough of a struggle to conduct international transactions these days. Bad enough we have to pay the fees -worse though if people stop shipping internationally because they are afraid of drama like this over the custom fees.

Thank you so much for saying this, Taffeta. I completely agree. <3
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: tulagirl on June 03, 2017, 06:46:50 AM
I can relate to this fear you mention Taffeta, but at a personal level.  I have no idea how it affects sellers on a larger scale shipping to these wonderful countries. I use to love doing international swaps.  A few times though there has been a lot of fear on the part of the partners about having to pay a customs fee.  This has been  a concern for me because, if I am in a swap I don't want to cause someone upset or financial strain.  So, I have had to make the decision to forgo international unless I am involved in private swaps.  Those seem to go fine.  If I want to join a swap but have to accept international ; I do not do these swaps anymore.  Between their issues with customs fees and the sky rocketing price to ship it is a big deal.  It does create stress for those of us who care and do not want a partner to have to pay because of something we did. I don't think senders mean to do anything wrong with these customs forms honestly.  They just want everything to get to their partner and compensation if it doesn't.  This is why this situation is quite difficult to come up with a fair solution for both parties.  All I can think is something that is even down the middle.  To me the only thing fair is if neither one has to foot the bill for anything.  That hardly seems fair to members who have sent their swap boxes and received and paid for their customs fees through all the swaps we have had.  Now all of the sudden someone isn't going to have to follow that typical coarse.
I feel for both of these members, my heart goes out to you because I do not know who you are.  I just know you are part of this community.  It is hard that this is out there for everyone to critique and it must be very hard for both of you to read our thoughts.  I hope that whatever the Mods decide to do that all of this has not ruined something that was supposed to be fun for both of you. :hug:
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Carrehz on June 03, 2017, 07:23:36 AM
Hearing about people refusing packages because of fees also doesn't help us international buyers in the battle to persuade more sellers and traders to ship overseas. It reignites that idea that we are all going to create a fuss over it, which frankly bothers me a bit. It's enough of a struggle to conduct international transactions these days. Bad enough we have to pay the fees -worse though if people stop shipping internationally because they are afraid of drama like this over the custom fees.

-snip-

I think it's just common sense that if you receive a package from overseas you might get a custom charge. It's a not fair and not pleasant reality of international trading, and it means we pay a lot more for the same things as most US collectors have - but that isn't the fault of the US collectors. It's our borders and our customs authorities that do that to us, not the people we buy or trade ponies with.

I agree with all of your post, Taffeta, but especially these two paragraphs. Very very very good points.

If the buyer genuinely couldn't pay the fees, that's a different matter and I can understand that, but otherwise.. y'know, it's just how these things go. It sucks but it is what it is, really :/
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: wystearya on June 03, 2017, 08:39:41 AM
Wow.  I don't think I have anything of use to add, but I will say that I can see both sides of this issue.

I will just ask some questions:

Did the recipient know about possible fees?  (Is this person relatively new to collecting/international shipping?)

Did the recipient know it was possible to get an overseas partner?  (I assume they probably did, but still asking.)

----------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what to suggest for this current issue.  Other than what has already been said - split the fees/shipping and move forward.

I think for the future all swaps should have *very* clear rules about custom and shipping fees. 
Who pays the fees
How much the fees could potentially be.
Etc.   (I think someone earlier posted a lengthy list on this.)

I wish all people involved the best of luck!  I do hope this can be resolved so that no one is -too- upset.  I feel that no one wins here, and maybe the participants can just chalk it up to a learning experience.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Juliepants on July 04, 2017, 10:01:57 AM
Was this ever resolved?

Jules x
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Loa on July 04, 2017, 03:13:30 PM
Was this ever resolved?

Jules x

We are still waiting for the custom to arrive at the senders.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Juliepants on July 05, 2017, 01:22:55 AM
Thank you for letting me know Loa. (I wasn't sure if there'd been a place to give a bit of money for reposting it and I'd missed it.)

Jules x
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: minamarie on July 05, 2017, 09:02:06 AM
I always lie about the worth in the customs form to avoid charges but pay a seperate postage fee to insure the parcel up to a chosen worth (2€ insure the parcel for 100€, 4 for 200...) - this insurance isnt labeled on the box to avoid theft.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on July 05, 2017, 09:34:28 AM
I always lie about the worth in the customs form to avoid charges but pay a seperate postage fee to insure the parcel up to a chosen worth (2€ insure the parcel for 100€, 4 for 200...) - this insurance isnt labeled on the box to avoid theft.

Lying on customs forms is actually a very serious crime , so I don't advise ANYONE to do this!  :( 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: minamarie on July 05, 2017, 09:47:39 AM
I always lie about the worth in the customs form to avoid charges but pay a seperate postage fee to insure the parcel up to a chosen worth (2€ insure the parcel for 100€, 4 for 200...) - this insurance isnt labeled on the box to avoid theft.

Lying on customs forms is actually a very serious crime , so I don't advise ANYONE to do this!  :(

No it's not an advice cause it's illegal - I only do it on private parcels (cause I just paid a dollar on that pony I am sending to friends even if it's worth 100 on ebay)and it is only mentioned cause the problem was - if they do lie (it was considered) it wouldnt be insured enough
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: MLPWhitney on July 05, 2017, 01:10:12 PM
My sympathies to both parties involved. Moving forward, maybe the mods can implement a swap rule that the organizers address potential customs issues at the onset of sign ups. Or add it best practices to sending overseas in a pinned post on the swap forum.

i.e. "by agreeing to this swap, you may incur import charges if your partner is international", and then it is at least the person's prerogative whether or not to participate. The person mailing may not feel comfortable marking a lower value (though I don't see why they would be, as it is essentially a "gift" between parties. Unless the parcel goes missing for whatever reason, or the sender isn't as well-versed in mailing internationally. Just playing devil's advocate!).


I wish I had the right answer on this issue, and the mentioned solutions seem reasonable enough. I would probably have to lean toward the sender, whom accurately marked the value and withheld his or her end of the deal. I am not sure if the receiver was keenly aware of their import taxes or not, but if they had, perhaps they could have PMed the swap host prior to joining the swap. The fact that they had the package sent back before contacting anyone (not sure if that was their only option on the spot; to be fair) seems to be piece out of place. I think the receiver should either cut her losses (now knowing how to proceed with receiving international parcels in the future), or pay the sender to mail out again. Certainly not the fun solution, but in my opinion, the sender did everything correctly.

Again, my condolences to both sides, and I hope it gets resolved!
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: cuddlebuggy on July 07, 2017, 06:11:26 PM
I have the same issue when shipping eBay purchases, I tend to undervalue them by about half so that the buyer isn't hit with a charge but it is still valued at something. Trades would be marked as gifts? I don't know as I don't do many trades but I'd hate to pay for my own gift.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: HoustonCollector72 on July 09, 2017, 10:29:29 AM
Receiver needs to pay for resend, package will be at real value and they will have to pay for import fees , is their responsibility in my opinion , the sending back to refuse fees was a NO NO, they could have made a correction on the fees proving the value was a mistake and savage the the swap that way.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Snapdragon on July 10, 2017, 06:26:53 AM
It's really tricky in this case, to me, because it's a custom swap. I've been puzzling this out for days now, but one thing that occurs to me is something that came up in another thread. Namely - the idea of 'I don't want this pony anymore because I can't even resell it once it arrives, as it is a custom item."

Customs are art; and while there may be an incredible amount of time poured into an artistic work, that doesn't inherently give it value to an outside observer. If you're going to sell a Van Gogh, of course you'll have oodles of buyers; but what about a lesser-known painter of a similar talent or style? Why does Van Gogh sell for millions, but my watercolors sell for $5?

For that reason, I don't feel that undervaluing a custom pony is particularly bad or wrong for the purposes of customs forms; because yes, while it is a beautiful work of art that anyone in the community would appreciate, to any outside observer it's "a $5 pony with paint on it," which isn't worth very much at all - unless you like that sort of thing. And there's even a lot of people within the community who don't enjoy custom ponies, or certain styles of custom ponies; that doesn't mean the pony is worthless, but simply isn't valued by those people. It's what makes reselling customs so difficult; the artist might decide their original work is worth $300, but the new owner may only be able to sell it for $25, because that's what the market dictates. As sad as it is, that pony is now "worth" $25, according to the market.

Also relevant, aren't all items in a custom/art swap considered to be 'gifts', since it's an artist-for-artist trade? It seems like, to me, valuing your 'artistic worth' on a customs form is a bit of a thoughtless move, unless they completely forgot about the fact that customs fees exist, which tends to happen for us Americans more often than not! If they are still insisting on their 'right' to value their art as highly as they want, well ... :/ Maybe they shouldn't be in swaps that are allowed to send overseas, in the future.

It's a confusing mess for sure, so I hope my post offered at least a little insight, and I wish the best for all parties involved. A true headache, indeed!!
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on July 18, 2017, 10:19:17 AM
It's really tricky in this case, to me, because it's a custom swap. I've been puzzling this out for days now, but one thing that occurs to me is something that came up in another thread. Namely - the idea of 'I don't want this pony anymore because I can't even resell it once it arrives, as it is a custom item."

Customs are art; and while there may be an incredible amount of time poured into an artistic work, that doesn't inherently give it value to an outside observer. If you're going to sell a Van Gogh, of course you'll have oodles of buyers; but what about a lesser-known painter of a similar talent or style? Why does Van Gogh sell for millions, but my watercolors sell for $5?

For that reason, I don't feel that undervaluing a custom pony is particularly bad or wrong for the purposes of customs forms; because yes, while it is a beautiful work of art that anyone in the community would appreciate, to any outside observer it's "a $5 pony with paint on it," which isn't worth very much at all - unless you like that sort of thing. And there's even a lot of people within the community who don't enjoy custom ponies, or certain styles of custom ponies; that doesn't mean the pony is worthless, but simply isn't valued by those people. It's what makes reselling customs so difficult; the artist might decide their original work is worth $300, but the new owner may only be able to sell it for $25, because that's what the market dictates. As sad as it is, that pony is now "worth" $25, according to the market.

Also relevant, aren't all items in a custom/art swap considered to be 'gifts', since it's an artist-for-artist trade? It seems like, to me, valuing your 'artistic worth' on a customs form is a bit of a thoughtless move, unless they completely forgot about the fact that customs fees exist, which tends to happen for us Americans more often than not! If they are still insisting on their 'right' to value their art as highly as they want, well ... :/ Maybe they shouldn't be in swaps that are allowed to send overseas, in the future.

It's a confusing mess for sure, so I hope my post offered at least a little insight, and I wish the best for all parties involved. A true headache, indeed!!


Found myself thinking about this thread again.  How is it going, mods?

Lots of great thoughts here. Maybe Arena customs swaps that have international participants should have a standard set of guidelines for  the value to be declared on the customs forms.  If people KNOW they are receiving a $50 item subject to customs fees, then they can choose to opt-out of joining the swap.

Because, yes, art is subjective and the postal service wants to see proof of value when and if someone has to make a claim.  :( 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Loa on July 18, 2017, 04:45:36 PM
The parcel is still in the ether, waiting to be returned.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Ringlets on July 19, 2017, 03:19:19 AM
It's really tricky in this case, to me, because it's a custom swap. I've been puzzling this out for days now, but one thing that occurs to me is something that came up in another thread. Namely - the idea of 'I don't want this pony anymore because I can't even resell it once it arrives, as it is a custom item."

Customs are art; and while there may be an incredible amount of time poured into an artistic work, that doesn't inherently give it value to an outside observer. If you're going to sell a Van Gogh, of course you'll have oodles of buyers; but what about a lesser-known painter of a similar talent or style? Why does Van Gogh sell for millions, but my watercolors sell for $5?

For that reason, I don't feel that undervaluing a custom pony is particularly bad or wrong for the purposes of customs forms; because yes, while it is a beautiful work of art that anyone in the community would appreciate, to any outside observer it's "a $5 pony with paint on it," which isn't worth very much at all - unless you like that sort of thing. And there's even a lot of people within the community who don't enjoy custom ponies, or certain styles of custom ponies; that doesn't mean the pony is worthless, but simply isn't valued by those people. It's what makes reselling customs so difficult; the artist might decide their original work is worth $300, but the new owner may only be able to sell it for $25, because that's what the market dictates. As sad as it is, that pony is now "worth" $25, according to the market.

Also relevant, aren't all items in a custom/art swap considered to be 'gifts', since it's an artist-for-artist trade? It seems like, to me, valuing your 'artistic worth' on a customs form is a bit of a thoughtless move, unless they completely forgot about the fact that customs fees exist, which tends to happen for us Americans more often than not! If they are still insisting on their 'right' to value their art as highly as they want, well ... :/ Maybe they shouldn't be in swaps that are allowed to send overseas, in the future.

It's a confusing mess for sure, so I hope my post offered at least a little insight, and I wish the best for all parties involved. A true headache, indeed!!

I think you made some good points here :bigups:
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Taffeta on July 19, 2017, 05:39:33 AM
The parcel is still in the ether, waiting to be returned.
It can take months for that to happen, sometimes I think they send stuff back via surface mail to cost the least amount of money. If so three-six months wait is possible.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: Loa on July 19, 2017, 05:13:27 PM
The parcel is still in the ether, waiting to be returned.
It can take months for that to happen, sometimes I think they send stuff back via surface mail to cost the least amount of money. If so three-six months wait is possible.

That's exactly what we thought too.
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on July 20, 2017, 07:39:22 AM
The parcel is still in the ether, waiting to be returned.
It can take months for that to happen, sometimes I think they send stuff back via surface mail to cost the least amount of money. If so three-six months wait is possible.

That's exactly what we thought too.

That is awful.  If I was the creator and sender of the custom, I would be livid and more than frustrated.  :(  I can see why we had to get the mods involved. 
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: HoustonCollector72 on July 20, 2017, 02:56:58 PM
If this was an Ebay  transaction, the moment the buyer refused to receive it  they voided their buyers protection , ebay or seller do not have to refund or resend anything to the buyer  -_-
Title: Re: The Mods need your opinion! Help!
Post by: MLPWhitney on July 20, 2017, 07:35:33 PM
The parcel is still in the ether, waiting to be returned.
It can take months for that to happen, sometimes I think they send stuff back via surface mail to cost the least amount of money. If so three-six months wait is possible.

That's exactly what we thought too.

That is awful.  If I was the creator and sender of the custom, I would be livid and more than frustrated.  :(  I can see why we had to get the mods involved. 

Agreed, just a terrible situation. The sender I still do not feel did anything wrong. If anything, the receiver may have been keen to import charges they may incur from other countries, and could have given a head's up either prior to the swap or to the swap host prior to everyone's mailing deadline. I am not saying they are in the wrong, however, the sender (I feel) is in between a rock and a hard place, by either mis-declaring the customs value (and god forbid losing the package) or mailing normally and this happening.

I feel for each party involved, including the mods. Hugs all around. I hope the package gets recovered sooner rather than later!
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