The MLP Arena

TCB => Trader & Shipping Support => Topic started by: BarbedDragon on September 16, 2013, 08:31:37 PM

Title: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: BarbedDragon on September 16, 2013, 08:31:37 PM
As I have run into this quite a few times recently, I was wondering what the policies or opinions are on requesting payment be made by gift payment via paypal?

I have also come across many sellers asking if the payment is not made as a gift that the buyer covers the paypal fees for them.

I was under the impression this was against PayPal policy to request gift payments for items---it also leaves the buyer unprotected if something were to happen. Very scary.

I have had persons in the past request Gift or pay fees or they will refuse sale. I typically steer clear of these sale threads when they are clear and posted in the topic unless the item I need is just WORTH it to me to pay more.

However, I have found sellers NOT posting that this is a requirement of payment in the sales posts and then tacking it on at the end or again as above giving the choice or no sale.

I really just wanted clarification on what is the right thing here. As as seller on here, eBay, and Etsy I have never asked for gift payments, nor have I asked for additional payments to cover my fees. I always include it into the price of the item or accept that there will be a little fee on my end.

So confused.  :blink:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Mkia on September 16, 2013, 08:46:03 PM
In my opinion, it is the sellers responsibility to pay the fees. That's just something that comes along with selling and accepting Paypal. Asking the buyer to pay the fees or send as a gift is unprofessional, as I see it. If the seller wishes to offset the fees, they should raise their prices slightly to compensate. I think there was a thread a while back asking this question.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: himmie on September 16, 2013, 08:48:41 PM
This has been discussed here a few times and I am someone that thinks the fees are the responsibility of the seller. I never ask for a payment as a gift, regardless of the amount. I can understand someone wanting the fees covered if the item only costs a couple dollars (or is free)... However, I honestly get annoyed when I spend over $100 and have someone ask me for another $3 for fees AFTER I pay. Most often, if I really want the item, I will just send extra for the fees, rather than paying as a gift.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 16, 2013, 08:55:32 PM
I also agree that it's the sellers responsibility to pay the fee, or if I'm expected to pay the fee to let me know, as I don't like sending payments via the gift option because it leaves the buyer vulnerable should items not show up.

If I were to sell on here I would expect to pay the seller fees. However I know that a lot of sellers do request that either the buyer pays the fee tacked on to the purchase price or they send the payment as a gift.

Everyone is different, but I've never quite understood exactly what is or isn't supposed to be allowed. So it's a godo question :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 16, 2013, 09:09:40 PM
What I don't understand is, why not work the paypal fees into the price of the item if a seller really cannot bear to pay them? You're setting the price of the item, why not be up-front about it?

A couple sellers were very good to me and were willing to hold items when I had some unexpected money troubles earlier this month, so I was willing to cover paypal fees as thanks (and if you read this, thank you again! :D), but most of the time it really puts me off a seller.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kezrob23 on September 16, 2013, 09:22:40 PM
It's definitely the sellers responsibility to pay the fees if they are not factored into the price. I more often than not pay as gift by my own choice with sellers that have good feedback when the amount is under $50. I have never been asked outright to do so, but it has been suggested to pay that way but only if I was comfortable with it. It's risky as most my purchases come from overseas, but I like to do it as those sellers go to alot of trouble getting int'l quotes, waiting to see if I'm ok with that quote etc...
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: NovelNerd on September 16, 2013, 09:31:56 PM
Mm sometimes I tack on a handling fee if supplies for boxes cost me. Bubble wrap is so expensive so usually anything extra for me is packaging supplies unless I have stuff that is reusable.

I'm a good for not knowing this but picking up on recently. Technically a seller cannot tell you to pay the fees. It's against PP policy and someone tell me if I'm wrong but can't you report them? Anyway I just up the price some in the original item anymore if I'm that weird about it.

Anyway I pay fees if someone is selling me something at a "pick up at store price", but I would hope they would show the same kindness.  I never send payment as a gift. Recently I've been getting MO. I kinda like that better. :lol:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 16, 2013, 09:38:23 PM
Anyway I pay fees if someone is selling me something at a "pick up at store price", but I would hope they would show the same kindness.  I never send payment as a gift. Recently I've been getting MO. I kinda like that better. :lol:
Good point. If someone's not making any money on the transaction, I think it's reasonable for the buyer to pay the fees. Otherwise the "seller" is paying to buy them something, and that's not right.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MiRaja on September 16, 2013, 09:51:55 PM
Personally, I generally round up to the nearest 50c on shipping.  If the shipping is like 3.23, I'll charge 3.50 or if it's 3.76 I'll round to $4.00.  That is where I generally smooth over *some* of the fees on Paypal, and then my shipping costs.  I don't factor such into my items because I don't know what exactly a buyer is going to buy. . .  I only deal with 3 ponies or more, and that helps with packing and fees in of its own. . .  But if people buy greater multiples from me than three, especially for some more expensive ponies, I'll cut people a break, or give them a better deal.  Also, if I factored all my fees in per item, and lifted the cost of my items, it may make it harder for trades since I try to do a lot of trading as well.  ^^

If people don't like that, then they're not in anyway obligated to buy fro me, ya know?  Same with those sellers who ask either gift or pay the fees.  Long as they're up front, which every seller should be upfront in how they do business.  That's all I'm concerned with.  If I'm buying, then I can factor in the cost a bit easier for myself.  :3
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Taxel on September 16, 2013, 10:32:56 PM
If someone demands I pay via gift or cover their Paypal fee, I won't do business with them. If you want your fee 'covered' so badly, price your items a little bit higher. I don't mind people asking me the pay the fee that much (I won't do it though) but what makes my blood boil is the demanding of paying as a gift. That leaves the buyer completely unprotected and is just so incredibly shady. I don't mind paying via gift to friends or sellers I've come to trust, but demanding I do when we've never had any sort of contact before is absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: TinyShinyUnique on September 17, 2013, 01:06:37 AM
This is a very interesting question, one I've never thought about.

I do ask if it's all right with the buyer to cover the fees if I'm selling something from and over the $50 mark. If they say that is not okay with them - okay, the sale is still on, it's just a courtesy in my opinion. It works both ways for me really - I always ask the seller if they want me to cover the fees so they wouldn't feel cheated out. I know that adding that $2 or $3 doesn't seem like much and might be annoying to some buyers, but I never felt like it's the responsibility of the seller to cover them. Then again, I never charge the buyer for the costs of any wrappings or envelopes and boxes when shipping, so it might even up that way. It is a good idea to add the cost of the fee in the price of the item or shipping - it's an easy solution, but not everyone (namely me) had thought about it :blush:
 
I don't think it's okay though to ask someone to cover the fees after the payment has been done - that is just unfair.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: CupidStrikes on September 17, 2013, 03:05:02 AM
I find it incredibly rude when someone tacks "+ paypal fees" onto their sales posts, especially when it's someone who sells a lot so they're more than likely aware of Paypal's policies. Though, it's ruder when they don't mention it but then make a fuss when you enquire about shipping quotes! When I've sold stuff I just price my items a lil higher to cover it and I also round up to the postage cost (I don't tend to charge for packaging if I've just mailed something in a bubble envelope so this covers some of that as well) to the nearest 50p.

I cover the fees for things like box splits where the seller has done me a favour and isn't making any money off it.

I have been wondering for a while if Paypal actually does anything if you report accounts that do this?
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Ringlets on September 17, 2013, 03:21:16 AM
Paypal fees are the responsibility of the seller, not the buyer (the exception being if the person "selling" isnt actually selling - they are just picking something up for the "buyer"- a friend-  as a favour - say for example I live in the UK and a friend in the US gets a pony for me that I cant find here. Then I would pay the fees because the seller has picked it up as a favor , not as a sale, and it wouldnt be fair for them to be out of money because I asked them to get something for me) :awake: 
 I dont like the idea of adding paypal fees or any other extra payments on after the sale has been agreed either.  The seller can easily work the Paypal fees into the cost of the item they are selling and advertise it at that price.

The gift option should only be used to send money to someone who is a close friend/family member who can be trusted 100% as you are *not* covered by Paypal if something goes wrong  ;)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on September 17, 2013, 03:56:30 AM
I sometimes ask people to send as gift and I'm surprised more here have not admitted it because EVERYONE I deal with asks me to pay via gift option. And 99% of the time I find people send via the gift option anyway without me even mentioning it.

I do NOT ask people to pay by gift to avoid any comebacks, and I do say if you are not comfortable paying that way then that's fine too! And when I pay other by gift I have never had to cover their fees.

I send tracked always, so there really is no issue.

I've never had any problems. My feedback speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Tiffymh1fan on September 17, 2013, 04:46:10 AM
If the seller has it posted to cover paypal fees as well as shipping there should be no question who should cover it. If its a big sell I don't mind paying the fees. But when I sell I don't charge gas or bubble wrap, tape, packaging, tracking, ect. and everything else that costs to mail. I don't mark up the prices to cover the fees because to me it just sounds "hidden or sneaky" I let the buyer know up front what to pay to the exact penny. I don't care if it is sent as a gift but prefer the fee just be paid to cover both parties. I do the same for others that I buy from too. Im happy to pay the fees when buying something that don't cost a lot. I think a lot of people don't sell because of the fees included & I don't blame them.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: bluerose9978 on September 17, 2013, 06:51:08 AM
It definitely is the seller's responsibility to pay the fees. I just don't understand why this topic keeps coming up! I have NEVER asked a buyer to pay the fees and I have NEVER asked a buyer to send as a gift. It leaves them unprotected and I don't want them to feel any way unsafe in a transaction. I have lost money selling bait ponies cheap, but that is the price of doing business in my opinion because I do this as a hobby. I make it up later selling some rarer ponies and it all balances out. And when buyers chip in a little bit to help the fees, that is just a bonus to me. I never expect it, it's just a nice thing that some of them do and I really appreciate it.

Sellers just need to suck it up and pay the fees. It's the price of doing business.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on September 17, 2013, 07:21:59 AM
If the seller has it posted to cover paypal fees as well as shipping there should be no question who should cover it. If its a big sell I don't mind paying the fees. But when I sell I don't charge gas or bubble wrap, tape, packaging, tracking, ect. and everything else that costs to mail. I don't mark up the prices to cover the fees because to me it just sounds "hidden or sneaky" I let the buyer know up front what to pay to the exact penny. I don't care if it is sent as a gift but prefer the fee just be paid to cover both parties. I do the same for others that I buy from too. Im happy to pay the fees when buying something that don't cost a lot. I think a lot of people don't sell because of the fees included & I don't blame them.

The part I bolded is a very good point. I NEVER charge for that stuff either and often end up out of pocket because of that so forgive me but if I start charging buyers for a bubble mailer, my address labels, printing and bubble wrap its going to double the cost of your pony.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: NovelNerd on September 17, 2013, 07:48:04 AM
Mm well  I do charge for supplies because I honestly don't think I should have to be out if that. Now if I have good boxes and bubble wrap I can use then I don't. If I have to buy new supplies though I do sit and calculate how much each thing is, but I also have it written down that I charge for it. I've never charged for gas since I only visit the post office one day a week (it's close to 20 miles sooo gotta make it count). I figure though if people don't like it they can just buy from someone else. ;)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 17, 2013, 08:38:08 AM
I think I can understand why the topic keeps coming up, everyone seems to have a different opinion on how it should be done. Some sellers are up front about fees etc..., others aren't.

I would say for the first 5-8 purchases I made on here, I was asked or told that it was my responsibility to pay the fees or to pay as a gift. I do remember requesting that sellers send me an invoice, some did (which gave me paypal protection, no worries about whether it's a gift payment or not) and some just ignored and kept saying if you're interested then send the payment to this ____________ email address.

I actually didn't know any better, I never knew that I wasn't covered if I paid as a gift until about 6-7 weeks ago.

I think I just automatically started paying that way because I was told by so many people to do so.

I really did find it quite confusing in the beginning lol.

Now I have a better understanding of how everything works.

As far as supplies go, my husband and I buy and sell on ebay regularly, not to mention all of the ponies I've bought on the arena, so we have tons of boxes, bubble mailers, bubble wrap etc... we NEVER factor in shipping supplies, time etc... but that's just us. We also don't drive, the post office is a 15 walk/5 minute bike ride from our home, so we don't pay extra for that.

Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kaskurgi on September 17, 2013, 10:34:36 AM
Yeah I just stay away from people that ask to pay as gift or those that ask to cover the paypal fees. Unfortunately have encountered this the same as Barbed. Get towards the end of sale then "Oh pay as gift or pay my paypal fees." I usually just say no thanks. I have also seen people post it in threads about paypal fees and I just skip them. I try to use recycled materials as well so I tend to not charge for supplies UNLESS it really needs a lot of thick big bubble wrap then I factor that into the price. I tend to go to the post office when I get a few orders to save on gas or when I am driving by so it's not really money out of my pocket that way.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Doedeardarling on September 17, 2013, 10:49:51 AM
Well, I've asked a buyer if they could cover paypal fees a couple of times I think, and that's because as a buyer I'm almost always asked myself. I don't really mind either way, but I feel it would be better if there was a rule or a guide line about this here in the arena, so no one would be the one to pay all the fees.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: NovelNerd on September 17, 2013, 10:58:41 AM
Well, I've asked a buyer if they could cover paypal fees a couple of times I think, and that's because as a buyer I'm almost always asked myself. I don't really mind either way, but I feel it would be better if there was a rule or a guide line about this here in the arena, so no one would be the one to pay all the fees.
I used to ask for fees from the buyer as well, and I did it because for the same reason sooo many others in transactions here aske me to cover them. I even stated in my topic that I needed buyers to cover them, so I'm guilty of the same actions. Then it was pointed out to me in Paypals rules you're not supposed to ask a buyer for fees. It's specifically in there.

I'm not innocent. I'm bad about skimming or doing the whole "well everyone else is doing it, so it must be ok." You think I would have learned by now at my age to pay attention.

I don't think it's a topic that necessarily needs clarification since it's in Paypals rules then as a seller don't ask people to break the rules. I've heard of people reporting sellers for asking buyers to pay fees. Now I don't know what Paypal does about it or if it's a valid reportable offense for them.

I just know if it's an item that I hate to lose fees on I add it before hand. If I'm doing a pick up or a favor for someone I do expect them to cover fees just to be polite.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Rhubarbpie on September 17, 2013, 12:03:00 PM
As a buyer and now a seller, I'd like to put my 2 cents in if I may?

When selling, I do not ask for the buyer to either send as a gift or cover the paypal fee's by adding on and extra pound or so.  I believe it is the sellers responsibility to cover any selling fee's (ebay/paypal/what ever) and packing materials.  If you feel the price of your pony does not cover these fee's and costs, then raise the price of the pony.  If this raises the price so much that no-one wants to buy it, perhaps you need to re-evaluate how you pack your pony!!

As a buyer, if a seller asks me directly to send as a gift or cover paypal fee's, I usually wimp out and pay it (albeit begrudgingly) whilst making a mental note to watch out for this buyer again. If this has not been specified, I will send the payment as normal, especially if its the first time I have bought from the seller or if they do not have much feedback.  If the seller is one I am on good terms with having bought from before, or had good communication with during negotiation of the sale, then I may shoot them a gift payment, cos I like and trust them.  Also I do have some friends who will do me favours from time to time, such as purchasing a TRU/Target/Walmart exclusive on my behalf, all of these payments will be send as a gift, and they'll usually be rounded up so a purchase worth $14.99 will get $20 sent over so they can get a blind bag or 2 on me :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kitkatvintage on September 17, 2013, 12:34:44 PM
Before the Arena moved, there was a sticky at the top of the Sales & TS forums warning against sending payment as a gift. It would be nice if that could be reposted since asking buyers to either send as a gift or pay fees has become such as common practice now. :huh:

I've always taken the fees as part of the privilege to use Paypal & get the money quickly & easily. Fees are the sellers responsibility. I've had more & more sellers expecting me to pay fees when I buy. If I really want the item, I may give in & pay the fees, but it's a definite strike against doing future business with that seller. When I see "add x% for Paypal fees" in a sales post, I usually stop reading right there. More often I've had sellers ask for extra money for fees after we settle on a sale price & shipping amount. I've walked away from a few sales at that point, and can think of a few others that I wish I'd walked away from.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Skeen on September 17, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
Agreed, KKV.  As a general rule, I don't pay a seller's fees.  I might once in a while if I need their item for a project, but I will put that seller on my personal blacklist after doing so.  YOUR PP account is YOUR responsibility.  If you're not getting enough money from the sale of your item to net what price you were after, raise your prices.  Don't tack on a price after and expect me to pay for your bubble wrap or gas to the post office.  That's like asking the grocery store to knock off a percentage from your total because you had to drive to get there.  You want the food, you pay for the gas to get it.  You want to be a seller, you pay the fees to be one. 

I have asked for payment as a gift if I am doing someone a favor (i.e, not making a cent, like picking up exclusives or something), but I have never and will never add on a fee to sales like that for my time or gas.  If I can't spare the time or gas to help someone out, I won't offer to help in the first place. 
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: SilverRains on September 17, 2013, 12:59:32 PM
I never send the money as a gift. It's not that I'm inherently distrustful, but it is important to me that my purchase is recognized (and covered) by paypal as a purchase. That's the whole point of the system.

Almost everyone I have bought from asked me to cover the paypal fees, and I think that's silly. If they knew exactly how much the fees should be, they should increase their price by that much to compensate, not tell me after I'm already interested in purchasing it at their listed price.

Like others have said, though, I'm happy to cover the fees myself if the seller doesn't make a profit from the transaction. It's just polite to do so, in my opinion. They already went through the trouble of getting and shipping you something, after all.

The worst part of that, to me, is that the fees are not very much to begin with. It seems silly to me to be so particular over 60 cents.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: STLGusty on September 17, 2013, 01:58:52 PM
I buy much more than I sell...but on the rare occasions when I actually have extras TO sell, I don't ask for PayPal fees to be covered.  I'm pretty scared of giving people the right shipping price and all that...so I just price the pony so shipping is always included. - and I guess that'd include any PayPal fees.  Of course, like I said, I rarely sell, so I usually forget there ARE Paypal fees until I see them, lol.  Stupid me.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: BlackCurtains on September 17, 2013, 03:45:46 PM
Don't tack on a price after and expect me to pay for your bubble wrap or gas to the post office.  That's like asking the grocery store to knock off a percentage from your total because you had to drive to get there.  You want the food, you pay for the gas to get it.  You want to be a seller, you pay the fees to be one.

So much this.

I have sent payments as gifts to people I've done business with often or who I trust, but that's my choice to do so. I don't like being asked or worse, told to send it as a gift. Lately, I have been adding a little extra to the final cost, rather than send as a gift as I don't like how Paypal words it now. But again, that's at my discretion. It's not my responsibility.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Oneleo1 on September 17, 2013, 05:27:58 PM
I have no problem asking a buyer to send payment as a gift, but will not force them to. If they are not comfortable sending as a gift, then I do not require it or ask them to cover the fees.

As a buyer, if the seller's feedback is stellar, then normally I have no problem sending payment as a gift either. :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 17, 2013, 05:34:29 PM
I just want to clarify that if I ask a member to do me a favor like purchasing an exclusive or whatever for me, I always pay the fees and I always send as a gift. I've only dealt with 2 members in that sense, but both had great feedback and were super sweet and wonderful to work with, I would do it again in a heartbeat :)

Otherwise I prefer to not send as a gift, even if the member has stellar feedback, it's protection for both parties.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kitkatvintage on September 17, 2013, 06:24:18 PM
Reading through this again now that I'm home from work, and this jumped out at me...

However, I honestly get annoyed when I spend over $100 and have someone ask me for another $3 for fees AFTER I pay. Most often, if I really want the item, I will just send extra for the fees, rather than paying as a gift.

Totally agreed!! Nothing annoys me more than having a seller ask me to cover fees on a high value item. If I'm paying $300 (just as an example) for a super rare pony, I would think the seller has taken the fee amount into account with their price. Asking for another 3% of the total seems ridiculous to me.  :enraged:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: steffers29madds on September 17, 2013, 06:51:00 PM
I have been incredibly lucky in that almost every purchase I have made on the arena has been positive. Having said that the one and only time I sent payment as a gift was to a seller who had lots of absolutely perfect feedback and I got screwed. Sent my $30 plus for a lot of Stephen Cosgrove books that were never sent and the seller went MIA. I learned my lesson and havent done it since.

Like others before me Im always a bit taken aback when asked to pay the seller's fees and have done it but usually wont buy again from them. At the end of the day though it was my choice to pay even if I was annoyed.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 17, 2013, 07:32:14 PM
I'm not saying I've had bad experiences with a seller based on who pays the fees or whether or not I pay using the gift option.

I just prefer that when it comes to selling me something, the seller sends an invoice to me especially if they want me to pay the fees (my math sucks), that way I can pay properly and we're both protected.

I've only had 1 negative transaction on the arena, luckily the seller invoiced me so I was covered, my seller also went MIA literally the day I paid and my item never arrived, so I had to open a paypal dispute to get my money back.

That transaction hasn't stopped me from buying or trading with other members in the slightest.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Libelle on September 18, 2013, 07:13:56 AM
I've had most sellers asking for payment as a gift. I wasn't happy about it at all, but I thought it was Arena policy to mark payments as gifts. Now I feel taken advantage of. :( Lesson learned, I will avoid such sellers in the future.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: tulagirl on September 19, 2013, 02:07:20 PM
I don't know if anyone has posted this information but hopefully not.  If you read the paypal user agreement in section 4.6 of Receiving Money it makes it quite clear that you are not allowed to ask for a gift payment for goods as well as not allowed to charge for your fees as they see this as a surcharge.  When all of us agree to the user agreement we are in fact saying we will follow that rule/policy.  It is because of this policy alone, I will not violate their user agreement to accommodate a seller nor will I require such an action from a buyer.  I lose out sometimes, but I have always felt following the rules is the way to go. :)

So, there really are no "special circumstances" in which asking a buyer to do these things is okay in paypal's eyes.  When we sell anything in this world we have to pay our fees and taxes. That is part of being a good citizen. If a buyer wishes to add a little extra money to cover a seller's fees that is perfectly okay as long as they were never asked to do so.  There is no violation in in that.

It is quite possible that a lot of sellers never read the user agreement and are not aware this is a violation of policy. 

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#4
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Navi on September 19, 2013, 02:15:34 PM
I always feel weird when someone asks me to send money as a gift, and would also feel weird asking someone to pay me as a gift. Fees are just part of using Paypal :\
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MiRaja on September 19, 2013, 03:12:28 PM
I think it's really easy to say 'oh, fees are just part of using PayPal,' but sellers here are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  If I raise my prices to actually make some money on my ponies, no one will buy from me.  I'm only selling and trading to thin my herd, but there are those here who do attempt to make a living from it or augment their finances.  I kind of find it ridiculous how much buyers are making a fuss of things for paying what is usually at most $1. 

It does not add up for the buyer, but it can make a small dent in the costs of supplies and the PayPal fees.  I am just so tired, and this is not in the least just the pony community in the least, but everything, of people being so darned cheap.  This is the same sort of argument I hear on people not wanting to pay auto gratuities in restaurants and expect their server to pay for them to eat out in their tip outs at the end of the night.  No, sellers shouldn't be charging or asking for more after the first transaction, but I haven't seen that.  Most everyone charges something like a dollar per sale whether it's one or five ponies.  Trust me when I say there is no one profitting in selling by selling one pony at a time.  Which is why I refuse to do single sales.  I would be losing money versus maybe breaking even.

 Honestly, I think most of the sellers here are doing everyone a favor in selling.  Unless you have a box of mimics or vennies, no one here is making a lot of money.  I sell mine or trade mine to make a little fun money.  I've made maybe $30 in a month.  I can make $30 an hour at my job.  So seriously?  No.  There are lots of businesses that charge a service fee, pony sellers are allowed to.  As that goes, I am ambivalent about the gift option.  If my seller has good feedback, there's no bother to me.  No one here on the arena is going to tarnish their years of building feedback for a few dollars.  No.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 19, 2013, 03:45:25 PM
No one is saying you have to lose money on a transaction. All people are saying is, if you want the fees covered, build it into the cost of the pony. It's a simple percentage, easily done. If pricing things a little higher makes people buy from someone else, that's how it goes, I'm sorry. They'd have to spend more on your pony whether you build it into the price or ask for the fee outright, just one violates paypal's TOS, and the other doesn't.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: spottedslug on September 19, 2013, 04:34:59 PM
I figure fees into the price of the item when selling. I never ask people to send as a gift but many do, and it is greatly appreciated. I send as a gift unless I'm told NOT to. ;)

Also when I signed up for paypal there were not the options there are today, so my user agreement looked somewhat different, I believe. Doesn't matter much now since I no longer have my own paypal account and won't touch ebay with a ten foot pole.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MiRaja on September 19, 2013, 06:46:25 PM
No one is saying you have to lose money on a transaction. All people are saying is, if you want the fees covered, build it into the cost of the pony. It's a simple percentage, easily done. If pricing things a little higher makes people buy from someone else, that's how it goes, I'm sorry. They'd have to spend more on your pony whether you build it into the price or ask for the fee outright, just one violates paypal's TOS, and the other doesn't.

I don't think you're understanding. 

If I'm trading, I don't need to inflate the price of my ponies, and besides, that's not fair to my trade partner who may or may not be inflating their costs.  Secondly, I cannot predict how many ponies a person is going to buy.  What no one seems to get that it is CHEAPER if we sellers charge ONE FLAT DOLLAR( and I don't even do that! I round up to the nearest .50c on the dollar.  Is your shipping $3.43?  Your cost is ponies plus + $3.50.  $3.67? Ponies plus $4. ) per TRANSACTION versus per pony. 

Think of it as an incentive, in all actuality.  You save by buying more ponies. 

If I need to do the math, here we go. 

You buy 5 ponies from me.  I have  inflated my costs by $1 on each pony.  We'll keep it easy and say each pony is worth $5.  But I'm charging $6.  Your shipping is $4.  You pay $34. 

Now, you buy from a seller who doesn't inflate their pony costs, but they charge $1 per transaction.  You buy 5 ponies again.  And they're each $5, again, just for a parallel.  Your shipping is again $4.  You pay $29.  You actually save $5.  Heck, you could buy 6 ponies for the price of 5.

Honestly, I do not care to inflate the prices of my ponies, because it'll make it even harder for me to sell.  Both because people will be put off on my prices ( and would be the same individuals here complaining about fee charges, asking me to 'cut them a deal,' ) and also because people would not want to justify buying several ponies versus one.

For me, keeping my prices down and charging a very small rounding up on shipping costs, is more convenient.  People are happier to buy more ponies at a time for me.  I have less running, I have less packaging costs and the buyer really saves.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 19, 2013, 07:18:24 PM
I think that people are taking this thread far too personally. No one is being attacked here. It all started with a simple question.

Yes most members on the arena aren't trying to make a living selling ponies, and yes you probably make very little if anything on a sale. However there are people who make quite a bit off their sales. But that's neither here nor there.

The fact is that I don't feel like I'm cheap just because I think it should be the sellers responsibility to pay the fees. To be honest 9/10 times, I usually send the payment as a gift, which means that I'm covering the fees, whilst leaving myself unprotected if the shipment gets lost or the seller goes MIA.

I have ponies for sale in the customs thread, if someone chooses to buy from me, I will be the one that pays the fees, I wouldn't want the buyer to do it, besides I'm used to it, since I sell on ebay all the time. It really doesn't matter to me if I have to shell out an extra $1. But that's my opinion about how I would handle it if I was the one selling.

Everyone here is different, we all think differently.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on September 19, 2013, 07:26:03 PM
I'm truly confused here... why would Paypal even come into play with trades? 

And it's a service fee for being able to accept the convenience of Paypal... most banks do NOT have affordable transfer fees.  Either you're making a living from the small business, and should be building it into your prices, or it's an occasional few cents to be able to receive money from anywhere in the world and have global exposure to your sales.  Try advertising on your local sales site with Ebay prices and see how many responses you get.  It's vastly different when a buyer can type in a phrase or word and buy from somewhere, anywhere on the planet. 
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: lilgryphon on September 19, 2013, 09:38:28 PM
It has been a very long time since I've bought or sold on the Arena, but I have to say, if it's becoming common practice to ask the buyer to pay SELLER'S fees I would be very put off with that seller - same with being asked to send my payment as a gift.

Firstly, as a buyer you are a customer, and I can't think of any business that would ask you to pay their fees for spending money there. You build it into your prices, as others have stated. Why do you think so many sellers on eBay offer 'free' shipping? It is because if their item costs $14 VS someone that sells their item for $10 + $4 the buyer will opt for the 'free' option every time. Its ingrained in us, we want free stuff and we're more likely to use you...and if you feel like you are loosing money buy selling perhaps you should save your extras and baits for meets where none of this comes into play.

Secondly, lets be honest here, we can all argue over how much PayPal and eBay's fees are and whether or not they are excessive, but your transactions as a buyer are almost 100% protected - especially if your item doesn't arrive. Please don't throw that protection away by abusing a gift option that is only supposed to be used for that purpose.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on September 20, 2013, 05:09:35 AM
I've looked at around 15 sales threads today, about 6 of them say you either have to pay the fees or pay by gift.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Diamond on September 20, 2013, 05:12:44 AM
Just my two cents, I do ask for fees to be covered if I am picking something up for you and charging you cost.  I do not ask for fees on any items I am selling, I figure that into my cost of selling it.  I do not ask for gift payments unless I am shipping international first class AND it is something I am pick up for you at cost.  I have had folks send me money as gift when I have not asked for it and that is fine.  I rarely send as gift unless it is someone I know, I normally add a little extra WITH OUT being asked to cover the pay pal fees.  But if I see someone asking for em, I will not usually buy from em.  It is the cost of doing business on the internet.

My user agreements look totally different as I have had my pay pal accounts since the beginning.

It is a totally judgement call, and no one is right or wrong in doing it.  BUT you are not covered and have no real recourse if something you are buying goes missing, so think twice before doing it. 

I've looked at around 15 sales threads today, about 6 of them say you either have to pay the fees or pay by gift.

Then those are folks I am not buying from. 
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: TinyShinyUnique on September 20, 2013, 07:31:15 AM
I've looked at around 15 sales threads today, about 6 of them say you either have to pay the fees or pay by gift.

Yeah, not to point at anyone or anything - but I actually thought everyone was doing so and that it was normal? :blush: This thread proved me very wrong.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on September 20, 2013, 08:25:24 AM
I've looked at around 15 sales threads today, about 6 of them say you either have to pay the fees or pay by gift.

Yeah, not to point at anyone or anything - but I actually thought everyone was doing so and that it was normal? :blush: This thread proved me very wrong.

Everyone is doing it Tiny, that's my point. ;) I can't believe not more people are coming in this thread to say they do ask for gift payment.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Navi on September 20, 2013, 08:39:33 AM
If you're just picking something up for someone as a favor, I can see why sending payment as a gift would be fine - you (probably) know this person somewhat, they're helping you out.

It's when a pony is being sold for a clear profit (heck, some sell for $100+) that I think asking for payment as a gift is odd. For that much money, I don't want to pay the Paypal fees too, and if something goes wrong, that's a lot of money to have no Paypal protection on.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: lindsayrose1985 on September 20, 2013, 08:52:39 AM
An interesting thought for international sellers....if someone paid for a pony with the gift option, what would you declare it on the postage label, goods or gift? See a gift item has a higher threshold before import tax comes in to action. Would you return the favour so to speak? To help prevent "fee's" at either end?

I will pay for a pony by gift or goods option. If by gift I do expect a traceable postage option with insurance for loss. It is only a few pence on the most part. For international purchases I do prefer goods option, just as the cheaper methods don't have tracking, but I'm covered by paypal. 
I think you need to judge your situation and seller. For trusted sellers I'll gladly send as a gift as to be honest if you buy from them often you get discounts and extra gifts you didn't expect or pay for. ..no one moans about those little extras I see!! :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: tulagirl on September 20, 2013, 10:02:56 AM
I just wanted to mention it doesn't matter what user agreement you had when you signed on with paypal. You agree to each revision of that agreement and its current agreement is the same for everyone because of that.  So, saying that since your agreement doesn't look like the current agreement doesn't really matter because they have the right to change it and its our responsibility as papal customers to read the revisions.  Especially when it involves policies on how we are allowed to use their site when receiving money for sales or gifts. :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 20, 2013, 10:05:05 AM
I just wanted to mention it doesn't matter what user agreement you had when you signed on with paypal. You agree to each revision of that agreement and its current agreement is the same for everyone because of that.  So, saying that since your agreement doesn't look like the current agreement doesn't really matter because they have the right to change it and its our responsibility as papal customers to read the revisions.  Especially when it involves policies on how we are allowed to use their site when receiving money for sales or gifts. :)
That's what I thought. After all, they send those emails every six months or so, "Okay we changed some stuff, do you like it? Hahaha too bad if you keep using our service we're going to assume you agree. Sucker."
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Em_L._Pea_Customs on September 20, 2013, 10:11:38 AM
I never expect a buyer to pay my paypal fees and I would not want payment sent as a gift.  I just roll those fees into my sales price.  That is the price I have to pay for ensuring a safe online payment method and the ease of having money deposited right into my account.  It is so worth it compared to the days of waiting on a money order (sometimes for weeks) and having to go cash it.  What a pain that was!

I have had a few sellers ask for payment by gift after the fact and I will oblige if under $20 or so.  If it is over that, I tell them that I would rather pay/split the fees with them, so we are both protected.  I usually avoid a purchase altogether from a seller that mentions it upfront on their sales thread. 

ETA:  There are times when it is ALWAYS proper to pay someone's fees.  Such as if they are doing you a favor by picking something up for you that isn't sold in your area or in a lopsided trade.  Case by case, ya know?
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 20, 2013, 10:50:43 AM
I never expect a buyer to pay my paypal fees and I would not want payment sent as a gift.  I just roll those fees into my sales price.  That is the price I have to pay for ensuring a safe online payment method and the ease of having money deposited right into my account.  It is so worth it compared to the days of waiting on a money order (sometimes for weeks) and having to go cash it.  What a pain that was!

I have had a few sellers ask for payment by gift after the fact and I will oblige if under $20 or so.  If it is over that, I tell them that I would rather pay/split the fees with them, so we are both protected.  I usually avoid a purchase altogether from a seller that mentions it upfront on their sales thread. 

ETA:  There are times when it is ALWAYS proper to pay someone's fees.  Such as if they are doing you a favor by picking something up for you that isn't sold in your area or in a lopsided trade.  Case by case, ya know?

I agree, if I'm getting someone to pick something up for me, of course I should cover the fees, otherwise their partially paying for my item, which is unfair.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Stormy31685 on September 20, 2013, 08:08:03 PM
There is a lot more involved for some sellers than others when it comes to Paypal and their fees...

Long ago, in the days of Yore, paypal did not charge a fee to recipients of a payment when the sender used existing funds, and the receiver of the money had a "personal" account.  So, most of the time, collectors who bought and traded far far more than they sold, never really encountered a fee, and when they did, it actually was customary for the buyer to pay the fees since they wanted to use credit cards.

See, once money has entered into paypal, one way or another, Paypal has already taken their fee from it, so there is no reason to continue taking money that had already been paid for.

Fast-Forwarding to today (and more recently), Paypal (and eBay) got into some hefty scrutiny by the US (and likely other countries') Governments.  The IRS got involved, and they now require Paypal to report everything you receive through paypal as a payment for goods and services directly to the IRS.  You are not required to claim it on your taxes however, if it does not meet the value/transaction requirements.

When this change occurred, Paypal stopped differentiating between a "personal" and "merchant" account, allowing users to send and receive money freely from any source for a fee - always for a fee.

The only way to avoid letting the IRS see extra money you are getting now, is when these payments are sent as a "gift."  Because money gifts up to a certain amount are not taxable.

So, as a seller, I personally will always politely ask buyers to send a payment as a gift (and I generally offer an extra discount for doing so) if they are comfortable, and if not, it does not matter, and I personally don't ask for extra money to cover fees.

I think when it comes to this whole topic, the etiquette is very debatable, because not every collector is a big-time seller, and therefore is more concerned about the dollar amount coming off a pony because there is no profit involved.  Also, as I mentioned before, there have been a LOT of changes to Paypal, so there is now a blend of ideals between newer collectors and oldies.

When it comes to asking for fees, I think that is up to the seller.  If you go to Walmart and use your Credit Card to buy something (no matter how cheap) you are never required to pay a fee to use your card rather than cash.  BUT if you go to the mom-and-pop corner store, you will likely see a sign somewhere that posts a minimum purchase amount required to use a credit card.  That is because it costs both Walmart AND the Mom-and-pop a fee to accept credit cards.  The difference is, Walmart can more easily absorb such costs with a higher sales volume.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kezrob23 on September 20, 2013, 08:48:45 PM
Our smaller stores here will charge a surcharge to pay by eftpos, whilst some of the larger business will charge a surcharge for paying by credit card. And yes many have a minimum spend amount. Yes I have asked people to pay me by gift here, but I have been either getting stuff for people or selling things on at cost. I know I, and I hope most if not all here would still honor a missing item whether paid by gift or not. I don't know how anyone could feel good within themselves if they didn't.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Sunshine on September 20, 2013, 11:17:37 PM
Personally, with my feedback here at the Arena now... if I sell items, I sometimes will ask, "If you can send as a gift, great! If not, no big deal!" - and put the option out there. I never ever DEMAND anyone pays as a gift unless it's something like, they are paying an EXACT shipping fee, or like was mentionde, something from a store where it's an EXACT price. if they want to pay as a "goods" for those things, I use websites to find the Paypal fees for them, and every single person I've dealt with has either been fine with that or offered themselves to either pay as a gift or pay the fees without me even asking... but, I like to make deals on ponies and stuff, so I may discount a group of ponies for someone, I don't think it's terrible of me to "put it out there" that a gift payment would be my preference, but they certainly don't have to do it!
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: ThriftyPony on September 22, 2013, 09:23:19 AM
This is something that really buns my biscuits. Paypal has feels because it is a money handling SERVICE. If you a selling something (outside of picking something up at a store as a favor for a pony who doesn't have the item available to them and selling at the same cost you paid), and you use Paypal as a means of accepting payment, then you need to pay the fees for said service, per Paypal policies. It should just be par for the course of selling. I understand a lot of people do it here, so when a seller asks me to send payment as a gift, I will, but it still makes me nervous. I don't like lying about things like that. If that extra cost bugs you, up your prices a little.

I get almost all my etsy payments through Paypal and I do not ask my customers to pay any of those fees. I am paying for a service that makes accepting online payments much easier, so that's how I see it. A lot people don't want to send a MO or cash anymore, so the fees are worth keeping customers.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Oneleo1 on September 22, 2013, 01:15:45 PM
There is a lot more involved for some sellers than others when it comes to Paypal and their fees...

Long ago, in the days of Yore, paypal did not charge a fee to recipients of a payment when the sender used existing funds, and the receiver of the money had a "personal" account.  So, most of the time, collectors who bought and traded far far more than they sold, never really encountered a fee, and when they did, it actually was customary for the buyer to pay the fees since they wanted to use credit cards.

See, once money has entered into paypal, one way or another, Paypal has already taken their fee from it, so there is no reason to continue taking money that had already been paid for.

Fast-Forwarding to today (and more recently), Paypal (and eBay) got into some hefty scrutiny by the US (and likely other countries') Governments.  The IRS got involved, and they now require Paypal to report everything you receive through paypal as a payment for goods and services directly to the IRS.  You are not required to claim it on your taxes however, if it does not meet the value/transaction requirements.

When this change occurred, Paypal stopped differentiating between a "personal" and "merchant" account, allowing users to send and receive money freely from any source for a fee - always for a fee.

The only way to avoid letting the IRS see extra money you are getting now, is when these payments are sent as a "gift."  Because money gifts up to a certain amount are not taxable.

So, as a seller, I personally will always politely ask buyers to send a payment as a gift (and I generally offer an extra discount for doing so) if they are comfortable, and if not, it does not matter, and I personally don't ask for extra money to cover fees.

I think when it comes to this whole topic, the etiquette is very debatable, because not every collector is a big-time seller, and therefore is more concerned about the dollar amount coming off a pony because there is no profit involved.  Also, as I mentioned before, there have been a LOT of changes to Paypal, so there is now a blend of ideals between newer collectors and oldies.

When it comes to asking for fees, I think that is up to the seller.  If you go to Walmart and use your Credit Card to buy something (no matter how cheap) you are never required to pay a fee to use your card rather than cash.  BUT if you go to the mom-and-pop corner store, you will likely see a sign somewhere that posts a minimum purchase amount required to use a credit card.  That is because it costs both Walmart AND the Mom-and-pop a fee to accept credit cards.  The difference is, Walmart can more easily absorb such costs with a higher sales volume.

Very well stated!
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Sunshine on September 22, 2013, 01:39:51 PM
There is a lot more involved for some sellers than others when it comes to Paypal and their fees...

Long ago, in the days of Yore, paypal did not charge a fee to recipients of a payment when the sender used existing funds, and the receiver of the money had a "personal" account.  So, most of the time, collectors who bought and traded far far more than they sold, never really encountered a fee, and when they did, it actually was customary for the buyer to pay the fees since they wanted to use credit cards.

See, once money has entered into paypal, one way or another, Paypal has already taken their fee from it, so there is no reason to continue taking money that had already been paid for.

Fast-Forwarding to today (and more recently), Paypal (and eBay) got into some hefty scrutiny by the US (and likely other countries') Governments.  The IRS got involved, and they now require Paypal to report everything you receive through paypal as a payment for goods and services directly to the IRS.  You are not required to claim it on your taxes however, if it does not meet the value/transaction requirements.

When this change occurred, Paypal stopped differentiating between a "personal" and "merchant" account, allowing users to send and receive money freely from any source for a fee - always for a fee.

The only way to avoid letting the IRS see extra money you are getting now, is when these payments are sent as a "gift."  Because money gifts up to a certain amount are not taxable.

So, as a seller, I personally will always politely ask buyers to send a payment as a gift (and I generally offer an extra discount for doing so) if they are comfortable, and if not, it does not matter, and I personally don't ask for extra money to cover fees.

I think when it comes to this whole topic, the etiquette is very debatable, because not every collector is a big-time seller, and therefore is more concerned about the dollar amount coming off a pony because there is no profit involved.  Also, as I mentioned before, there have been a LOT of changes to Paypal, so there is now a blend of ideals between newer collectors and oldies.

When it comes to asking for fees, I think that is up to the seller.  If you go to Walmart and use your Credit Card to buy something (no matter how cheap) you are never required to pay a fee to use your card rather than cash.  BUT if you go to the mom-and-pop corner store, you will likely see a sign somewhere that posts a minimum purchase amount required to use a credit card.  That is because it costs both Walmart AND the Mom-and-pop a fee to accept credit cards.  The difference is, Walmart can more easily absorb such costs with a higher sales volume.

Very well stated!

I second that :biggrin:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Tiffymh1fan on September 22, 2013, 02:34:11 PM
This thread is going in circles.

Paypal has made it a lot easier than cashing those M.O. or dealing with bounced checks & so on. Im grateful for that. Im taking a nap now. This is a lot of reading for fees  :P   
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: lilgryphon on September 22, 2013, 07:24:54 PM
This is something that really buns my biscuits. Paypal has feels because it is a money handling SERVICE. If you a selling something (outside of picking something up at a store as a favor for a pony who doesn't have the item available to them and selling at the same cost you paid), and you use Paypal as a means of accepting payment, then you need to pay the fees for said service, per Paypal policies. It should just be par for the course of selling. I understand a lot of people do it here, so when a seller asks me to send payment as a gift, I will, but it still makes me nervous. I don't like lying about things like that. If that extra cost bugs you, up your prices a little.

I get almost all my etsy payments through Paypal and I do not ask my customers to pay any of those fees. I am paying for a service that makes accepting online payments much easier, so that's how I see it. A lot people don't want to send a MO or cash anymore, so the fees are worth keeping customers.

My sentiments exactly! You are still using the service, and for the record I don't like it when small stores want you to pay a fee for using a credit card either...
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 22, 2013, 07:34:32 PM
This is something that really buns my biscuits. Paypal has feels because it is a money handling SERVICE. If you a selling something (outside of picking something up at a store as a favor for a pony who doesn't have the item available to them and selling at the same cost you paid), and you use Paypal as a means of accepting payment, then you need to pay the fees for said service, per Paypal policies. It should just be par for the course of selling. I understand a lot of people do it here, so when a seller asks me to send payment as a gift, I will, but it still makes me nervous. I don't like lying about things like that. If that extra cost bugs you, up your prices a little.

I get almost all my etsy payments through Paypal and I do not ask my customers to pay any of those fees. I am paying for a service that makes accepting online payments much easier, so that's how I see it. A lot people don't want to send a MO or cash anymore, so the fees are worth keeping customers.

My sentiments exactly! You are still using the service, and for the record I don't like it when small stores want you to pay a fee for using a credit card either...
I think it's a bit different shopping online. While it's always annoying to pay an extra fee, Paypal also gives buyer protection that other methods of payment don't. It's not like the owners of the small shop can choose not to send your item if you pay cash, it's right there in your hands. If you send someone concealed cash for an online sale, you have no recourse if they flake out. Moreover, many sellers only accept paypal these days.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Stormy31685 on September 22, 2013, 07:48:43 PM
This thread is going in circles.

Paypal has made it a lot easier than cashing those M.O. or dealing with bounced checks & so on. Im grateful for that. Im taking a nap now. This is a lot of reading for fees  :P   

Tiffy, you are right.  This is one of those topics that is so overly-debatable because it stems from literally dozens of viewpoints with lots of supporting arguments for every opinion.

For receivers, you could make the argument that a buyer who wishes to use a credit card should be responsible for fees because almost none of us are merchants or businesses.  You could make the argument that it is a cost of doing business.  Collectors holding hard to find ponies may have their choice of buyers and the one with the highest and best offer is going to get the pony - and that will likely mean the buyer willing to pay the fee or send the payment as a gift.  There are just so many layers of debate here, and the biggest issue is that none of them are really wrong, they just all hinge on different viewpoints.

What everyone who collects should probably do, is simply evaluate any transacton they plan to enter into with anyone.  Before sending a payment as a gift, you should ask yourself these questions:

How well do I know my seller?
How reputable is he or she?
Am I willing to lose $x.xx if I get screwed?
Does this deal seem too good to be true?

These are very basic, but will help a lot.  None of us can control the changes set forth by Paypal, but we can work with them. 

The most important thing would be to educate yourself as a buyer, and protect yourself when and where you feel the need.

We all need to remember that this is a website that is dedicated to being a one-stop-shop for all collectors and lovers of My Little Pony.  It is not directly responsible for each person behind the thousands of usernames.  So there cannot really be a "rule" for payment methods.  We all just need to know what our own expectations and personal limitations are, and realize that they may cost us a sale or purchase from time to time or bring in an unwanted buyer or bad seller here and there.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on September 22, 2013, 07:51:17 PM
This thread is going in circles.

Paypal has made it a lot easier than cashing those M.O. or dealing with bounced checks & so on. Im grateful for that. Im taking a nap now. This is a lot of reading for fees  :P   

Tiffy, you are right.  This is one of those topics that is so overly-debatable because it stems from literally dozens of viewpoints with lots of supporting arguments for every opinion.

For receivers, you could make the argument that a buyer who wishes to use a credit card should be responsible for fees because almost none of us are merchants or businesses.  You could make the argument that it is a cost of doing business.  Collectors holding hard to find ponies may have their choice of buyers and the one with the highest and best offer is going to get the pony - and that will likely mean the buyer willing to pay the fee or send the payment as a gift.  There are just so many layers of debate here, and the biggest issue is that none of them are really wrong, they just all hinge on different viewpoints.

What everyone who collects should probably do, is simply evaluate any transacton they plan to enter into with anyone.  Before sending a payment as a gift, you should ask yourself these questions:

How well do I know my seller?
How reputable is he or she?
Am I willing to lose $x.xx if I get screwed?
Does this deal seem too good to be true?

These are very basic, but will help a lot.  None of us can control the changes set forth by Paypal, but we can work with them. 

The most important thing would be to educate yourself as a buyer, and protect yourself when and where you feel the need.

We all need to remember that this is a website that is dedicated to being a one-stop-shop for all collectors and lovers of My Little Pony.  It is not directly responsible for each person behind the thousands of usernames.  So there cannot really be a "rule" for payment methods.  We all just need to know what our own expectations and personal limitations are, and realize that they may cost us a sale or purchase from time to time or bring in an unwanted buyer or bad seller here and there.

Well said :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 22, 2013, 07:58:22 PM
Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Stormy31685 on September 22, 2013, 08:18:43 PM
Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 22, 2013, 08:59:53 PM
Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.
I've said elsewhere in this thread that if you're bothered about fees, you can add it to the price of the pony. :) If no one else is selling that particular pony, then your price goes (assuming there's someone willing to pay). I'm just saying that Paypal's TOS explicitly prohibits sellers saying "I need you to give me extra money for Paypal fees."

And while you're not 100% required to use Paypal on online purchases, it makes it significantly harder, as (like I said) some sellers only accept Paypal, even if you personally accept other forms of payment. Others have said why it's shady to ask to have payment sent as gifts rather than goods.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Stormy31685 on September 23, 2013, 01:03:38 AM
Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.
I've said elsewhere in this thread that if you're bothered about fees, you can add it to the price of the pony. :) If no one else is selling that particular pony, then your price goes (assuming there's someone willing to pay). I'm just saying that Paypal's TOS explicitly prohibits sellers saying "I need you to give me extra money for Paypal fees."

And while you're not 100% required to use Paypal on online purchases, it makes it significantly harder, as (like I said) some sellers only accept Paypal, even if you personally accept other forms of payment. Others have said why it's shady to ask to have payment sent as gifts rather than goods.

You are right, sweetheart!  Those statements are true and they are very good ideas, but again, you won't be able to force all your sellers to adhere to that standard, and that does not necessarily make them wrong or bad people.  You have to know your personal limitations and go by what you think is right as a buyer or seller.  If you think a seller is wrong for that, then you don't have to buy from him or her, you just have to realize that there will be some members you will not buy from.  Whatever PayPal and eBay set forth as rules is separate from what goes on at a personal level.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 23, 2013, 01:09:18 AM
Er, except there is an easy answer. Paypal has it in their TOS that sellers aren't allowed to require buyers to pay their fees. Their service, their rules.

How badly do you want the pony that you were not willing to add an extra few dollars?

And this is simply another viewpoint.  Paypal has to cover their bases, legally, and financially.  They WANT all transactions to occur for goods or services because that is how they earn their money in fees.  What you are able to do and willing are separate from that.  Paypal does not tell every collector that you have to always use their service or you cannot collect ponies anymore.  Or buy from the internet.

They are a company.  They provide a service.  BOTH parties use the service.  Both parties may choose.  I have literally had buyers who hate paypal so bad that they have Wired me money - there is no protection there.
I've said elsewhere in this thread that if you're bothered about fees, you can add it to the price of the pony. :) If no one else is selling that particular pony, then your price goes (assuming there's someone willing to pay). I'm just saying that Paypal's TOS explicitly prohibits sellers saying "I need you to give me extra money for Paypal fees."

And while you're not 100% required to use Paypal on online purchases, it makes it significantly harder, as (like I said) some sellers only accept Paypal, even if you personally accept other forms of payment. Others have said why it's shady to ask to have payment sent as gifts rather than goods.

You are right, sweetheart!  Those statements are true and they are very good ideas, but again, you won't be able to force all your sellers to adhere to that standard, and that does not necessarily make them wrong or bad people.  You have to know your personal limitations and go by what you think is right as a buyer or seller.  If you think a seller is wrong for that, then you don't have to buy from him or her, you just have to realize that there will be some members you will not buy from.  Whatever PayPal and eBay set forth as rules is separate from what goes on at a personal level.
But...this topic is about Paypal fees. Paypal sets the terms by which you have to adhere to use their service. I don't mean any of this personally, it's just statement of fact. A user can choose not to follow the TOS, but they're liable to have their account suspended if they do. Nowhere have I called anyone a bad person, just that Paypal has the right to set their own terms of use.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on September 23, 2013, 02:32:43 AM
PayPal have no idea whether you are asking a buyer to pay fees or not. Their terms and conditions also state no raffles but people blatantly do it, on here, quite regularly and no one has issue with that when they are trying to win a $100 set of ponies do they! Anyone who participates in those raffles is also breaking rules but they still do it.

And there is nothing shady about asking for a gift payment if you're not shady!
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Stormy31685 on September 23, 2013, 04:52:40 AM

Quote
But...this topic is about Paypal fees. Paypal sets the terms by which you have to adhere to use their service. I don't mean any of this personally, it's just statement of fact. A user can choose not to follow the TOS, but they're liable to have their account suspended if they do. Nowhere have I called anyone a bad person, just that Paypal has the right to set their own terms of use.

Sorry, I did not mean to make ou feel like you were accusing anyone of being a bad seller.  I think this sort of thing can be misconstrued very easily because there have been so many topics on it here, when there should not be.

I went back and re-read the first post, and no, I did not gather that this topic asked what we were allowed to do, but more of what was the general consensus of what was courteous when it comes to the fees.  Paypal is not United Way.  Not a Charity.  They are a very for-profit business.  Yes, they care about protecting their buyers and sellers, but their main focus is and will always be linig their pockets.

Long, long ago, before paypal even existind (actually I think I can remember back when McDonalds was still only accepting cash), the only way to buy items off of eBay was with checks or cash.  Now I may have been lucky, but I only lost my money once.  Since paypal, I have had far more bad buyers.

After reading everyone's responses, I will definitely stand by the determination that it is different for evey sale, every party involved, and every case in general.   It is between a seller and buyer.  If both parties are comfortable with it, great. 

What might be best is for everyone to be up front about it, but you cannot police people like that.  There is no means for control. 

Paypal does not have a personal messenging service to be able to read the details of every sale completed by it - nor will they.

So, again, every person needs to know what principles hey care to stick to when acting as a buyer or a seller and understand that there will be costs - opportunity and money - associated with those decisions.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: ponylady on September 23, 2013, 06:35:17 AM
While everyone has their own viewpoint/opinion on this issue, it has been discussed many times before. I have posted below a sticky from the old Arena on "our" viewpoint on gift payments. I believe Pop-Girl also posted this in the last thread on this same topic.

Quote
This is just a friendly reminder that any time you pay a seller and select the "Send as Gift" option, you have just opted OUT of ANY Buyer Protection services that Paypal offers!

Send as Gift= you may not file a claim! Ever!

(not to mention it's rather dishonest and cheats Paypal of their cut- I know, they won't go bankrupt because they lost your $0.63 fee ;) )

You *may* be able to get around this with your credit card fraud department, but I do not know if this has been tried yet, so I wouldn't count on it.

When selling between friends of course it's your prerogative, just remember that once you send it as a gift, it's gone for good.

It is inappropriate for sellers to require buyers to ignore Paypal's Terms & Conditions and send payments as "Gift's!" Don't put your buyers in that awkward position, they would be fully justified to refuse to complete the transaction. Sellers who are members at the Arena, who take payments as "gifts" and then have an issue with a sale here will be expected to work with the buyer exactly as they would if the buyer had Paypal's protection in place.

I know this has all been discussed here before, but it has always been amongst other issues. Seems like it's time this get adopted into the common trading etiquette since it looks like the change to Paypal is permanent.

I hope we'll never see a disappointed buyer here who has no recourse because they tried to be nice and save the seller a couple dollars in fees.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Sunshine on September 23, 2013, 09:47:52 AM
PayPal have no idea whether you are asking a buyer to pay fees or not. Their terms and conditions also state no raffles but people blatantly do it, on here, quite regularly and no one has issue with that when they are trying to win a $100 set of ponies do they! Anyone who participates in those raffles is also breaking rules but they still do it.

And there is nothing shady about asking for a gift payment if you're not shady!

 :cool: Hahaha I love this line party! :heart:

Well, I guess my buyers don't have an issue with it, I must not be shady... :biggrin:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: ponylady on September 23, 2013, 10:21:36 AM
Sunshine I am glad your not shady  :P but the post I posted about (in quotes below) is a sticky reminder from the old Arena about gift payments.

Quote
It is inappropriate for sellers to require buyers to ignore Paypal's Terms & Conditions and send payments as "Gift's!" Don't put your buyers in that awkward position, they would be fully justified to refuse to complete the transaction. Sellers who are members at the Arena, who take payments as "gifts" and then have an issue with a sale here will be expected to work with the buyer exactly as they would if the buyer had Paypal's protection in place.

So just be aware that if you have an issue by Arena standards, you are expected to follow through as if it was paid for as Merchandise/Services. Just an FYI.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: NoDivision on September 23, 2013, 11:33:37 AM
I think it's great that by arena standards people are expected to treat all transactions with the same vigilance, and I know our wonderful trader support mods are dedicated to trying to find solutions to all problem transactions :) 

However, since arena rules and suggestions can't be enforced the same way paypal rules can, I'm not willing to take those chances. I think a lot of other buyers and sellers are in the same boat. We'd like to think we can trust all of our fellow arena members, but numerous trader support threads prove that it's not the case.  I like the level of protection paypal gives. As a buyer I won't buy from anyone who tries to force me to give up that protection, and as a seller I'm more than happy to pay the fees that give me that security.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Sunshine on September 23, 2013, 11:46:08 AM
I think the big issue is the word REQUIRE

I personally don't REQUIRE it, but can offer the option. I haven't actually run into anyone who requires a gift payment, but I have run into some people who REQUIRE you paying the Paypal fees.

I don't do that. Just put the option out there that a gift is always helpful to me, versus a goods, but I don't mind which method they pay me! :biggrin:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Shiromisa on September 23, 2013, 11:51:16 AM
I think it's great that by arena standards people are expected to treat all transactions with the same vigilance, and I know our wonderful trader support mods are dedicated to trying to find solutions to all problem transactions :) 

However, since arena rules and suggestions can't be enforced the same way paypal rules can, I'm not willing to take those chances. I think a lot of other buyers and sellers are in the same boat. We'd like to think we can trust all of our fellow arena members, but numerous trader support threads prove that it's not the case.  I like the level of protection paypal gives. As a buyer I won't buy from anyone who tries to force me to give up that protection, and as a seller I'm more than happy to pay the fees that give me that security.
Well said. I've noticed you have the ability to say things I mean better than I can! :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: NoDivision on September 23, 2013, 12:31:41 PM
I think the big issue is the word REQUIRE

I personally don't REQUIRE it, but can offer the option. I haven't actually run into anyone who requires a gift payment, but I have run into some people who REQUIRE you paying the Paypal fees.

I don't do that. Just put the option out there that a gift is always helpful to me, versus a goods, but I don't mind which method they pay me! :biggrin:

I have both paid and received gift payments, either with friends or from people who have sent me payment as a gift without any prompting (always a nice surprise.) I have had several sellers ask but not care if I politely said no to sending payment as a gift, and that's fine. I have also on occasion sent a few extra dollars to cover fees without being asked, just to be nice. But yes, the key word is definitely require. Anyone who requires the buyer to pay as a gift or pay the fees is more than likely not going to get my business.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: BarbedDragon on October 01, 2013, 08:03:21 AM
I remember there being a sticky on the old arena, that's why I asked. I second that maybe we need to have a sticky again so people understand these requirements or guidelines a little better---So maybe a sticky, or a Etiquette sticky made or something.

My initial post was not arguing that paypal charges the fees---again---I'm a seller on Etsy and eBay, I'm fully aware and I pay them like I am supposed to. If I didn't agree I would be using MO or another way of payment.

It was more to the tune of people not POSTING on their sales threads that they require gift or paypal fees be made and hitting you with them in the end. I question them EVERY TIME and the answer I get----EVERYONE ELSE DOES IT TO ME. I don't agree with this.

The last time in encountered it the item was already in the mail without my knowledge, so I REALLY felt like I was forced to pay (from a ethical standpoint). It's a completely separate issue that has already been squelched and dealt with but I felt really backed up against the wall about it.

In similar terms YES---You will put me off from buying from you if you ask me to pay as a gift or cover your fees. I'm sorry---I will not violate my TOS in PayPal because I, myself would not ask another to do this. Unless you have something I am desperate for, I will not buy if you outline it in your buying practices unless I know you very very well---but others will and that is FINE, they are more than welcome to do so.

My main issue is with sellers NOT outlining this in their policy and then after you have asked for a shipping quote etc they spring it on you. THIS is not fair. THIS is feel is underhanded. Include your fees in the shipping quote, even add handling and package costs? FINE!!! I am actually OK with this!! But require at the end payment as a gift OR pay for your fees or no sale when there was no previous mention of it?? Nope. Not cool in my book.

I don't know, I didn't mean to start a fuss---I really did try to do a search and came up with very little as far as what was considered correct selling etiquette with gift options/paypal fees. At least it's sort of clarified for me :P


Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: hellapostalia on October 01, 2013, 10:56:03 AM
I don't know, I didn't mean to start a fuss---I really did try to do a search and came up with very little as far as what was considered correct selling etiquette with gift options/paypal fees. At least it's sort of clarified for me :P

Oh I don't think you started a fuss. Actually, I think this is a great thread, and an important topic. (Obviously, as there are so many different opinions on the subject).

As mentioned earlier, threads like this have been hashed and rehashed over the years. BUT, there are always new arena members who want to buy or sell, and this thread may be the first time this information is presented to them.

Personally, I've been buying and selling ponies online for over 15 years but I've only been on the arena since last summer and I've found this thread helpful.

My opinion on the subject:

Buyers and sellers can do what they want. Follow paypal rules, don't follow paypal rules, build fees into your prices or not, charge a handling fee, whatever you like. BUT, there may (or may not) be consequences to your buying/selling practices... (i.e. loss of buyer protection if you pay as a gift, etc.)

I recently decided not to complete a transaction on the arena because AFTER pming back and forth for details on the items and AFTER requesting my total with shipping I was asked to send payment as a gift, but if I did not, I was required to pay the paypal fees to complete the transaction.

In the initial sales thread it was stated that the seller 'preferred' payments to be sent as a gift. It was NEVER stated that I would have to pay the fees if I opted to retain my buyer protection. That is NOT ok with me.

I didn't appreciate the seller not being upfront from the start. If they want to charge paypal fees, fine. But say it outright from the beginning, BEFORE we're three pm's into a transaction. That is just NOT ok with me.

But, it may be ok with someone else. That's fine. Someone else can buy the ponies.

On a happier note, I was thankfully able to trade for the ponies I wanted with another local collector  :cool:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: tulagirl on October 01, 2013, 10:22:50 AM
I don't know, I didn't mean to start a fuss---I really did try to do a search and came up with very little as far as what was considered correct selling etiquette with gift options/paypal fees. At least it's sort of clarified for me :P

Oh I don't think you started a fuss. Actually, I think this is a great thread, and an important topic. (Obviously, as there are so many different opinions on the subject).

As mentioned earlier, threads like this have been hashed and rehashed over the years. BUT, there are always new arena members who want to buy or sell, and this thread may be the first time this information is presented to them.

Personally, I've been buying and selling ponies online for over 15 years but I've only been on the arena since last summer and I've found this thread helpful.

My opinion on the subject:

Buyers and sellers can do what they want. Follow paypal rules, don't follow paypal rules, build fees into your prices or not, charge a handling fee, whatever you like. BUT, there may (or may not) be consequences to your buying/selling practices... (i.e. loss of buyer protection if you pay as a gift, etc.)

I recently decided not to complete a transaction on the arena because AFTER pming back and forth for details on the items and AFTER requesting my total with shipping I was asked to send payment as a gift, but if I did not, I was required to pay the paypal fees to complete the transaction.

In the initial sales thread it was stated that the seller 'preferred' payments to be sent as a gift. It was NEVER stated that I would have to pay the fees if I opted to retain my buyer protection. That is NOT ok with me.

I didn't appreciate the seller not being upfront from the start. If they want to charge paypal fees, fine. But say it outright from the beginning, BEFORE we're three pm's into a transaction. That is just NOT ok with me.

But, it may be ok with someone else. That's fine. Someone else can buy the ponies.

On a happier note, I was thankfully able to trade for the ponies I wanted with another local collector  :cool:

The same thing happened to me recently and I declined to purchase items from the Arena seller and have since found them locally as well.  In fact for the most part I am sort of done trying to buy ponies and merchandise here on the Arena due to this whole, "pay my fees, pay as a gift thing."  Its certainly not every seller.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kitkatvintage on October 01, 2013, 12:16:13 PM
I hope this isn't straying too far off topic, but I have another question/thought about the "who pays the fees" issue:

Would it be justified to include that information in the feedback we leave? For example "good communication, fast shipping, nice pony, but the seller required I pay the fees/send as gift & did not mention this at the beginning of the sale"

I've often wanted to leave that sort of feedback, but thus far I have not because I know even the slightest negative comment in an otherwise positive feedback can send people into full retaliation mode.

So often I see people saying they agreed to pay the fees because a buyer has a lot of good feedback. A lot of times I think that a high number of feedback just means that person has had a lot of transactions. How many times do we leave good feedback when we aren't 100% happy? If I saw comments in feedback that the seller repeatedly tried to sneak fees in on buyers, I would be a lot less likely to buy from them no matter what their total feedback score was.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: CupidStrikes on October 01, 2013, 05:10:10 PM
I hope this isn't straying too far off topic, but I have another question/thought about the "who pays the fees" issue:

Would it be justified to include that information in the feedback we leave? For example "good communication, fast shipping, nice pony, but the seller required I pay the fees/send as gift & did not mention this at the beginning of the sale"

I've often wanted to leave that sort of feedback, but thus far I have not because I know even the slightest negative comment in an otherwise positive feedback can send people into full retaliation mode.

So often I see people saying they agreed to pay the fees because a buyer has a lot of good feedback. A lot of times I think that a high number of feedback just means that person has had a lot of transactions. How many times do we leave good feedback when we aren't 100% happy? If I saw comments in feedback that the seller repeatedly tried to sneak fees in on buyers, I would be a lot less likely to buy from them no matter what their total feedback score was.

I'd say yes you would be totally justified in leaving that kind of feedback as it's honest. If the seller gets defensive because they didn't want you to say that then...they shouldn't conduct their sales that way :)
I really hate it when sellers suddenly tack on fees after you've seen the item + shipping price and agreed to purchase =/ I agreed to purchase it at that price, not the new higher one >(
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: hellapostalia on October 02, 2013, 12:26:14 AM
I hope this isn't straying too far off topic, but I have another question/thought about the "who pays the fees" issue:

Would it be justified to include that information in the feedback we leave? For example "good communication, fast shipping, nice pony, but the seller required I pay the fees/send as gift & did not mention this at the beginning of the sale"

I've often wanted to leave that sort of feedback, but thus far I have not because I know even the slightest negative comment in an otherwise positive feedback can send people into full retaliation mode.

So often I see people saying they agreed to pay the fees because a buyer has a lot of good feedback. A lot of times I think that a high number of feedback just means that person has had a lot of transactions. How many times do we leave good feedback when we aren't 100% happy? If I saw comments in feedback that the seller repeatedly tried to sneak fees in on buyers, I would be a lot less likely to buy from them no matter what their total feedback score was.

I'd say yes you would be totally justified in leaving that kind of feedback as it's honest. If the seller gets defensive because they didn't want you to say that then...they shouldn't conduct their sales that way :)
I really hate it when sellers suddenly tack on fees after you've seen the item + shipping price and agreed to purchase =/ I agreed to purchase it at that price, not the new higher one >(

I agree with all of this. I wonder if it would be possible to require an additional step when leaving feedback for a transaction.

A mandatory poll for the buyer with four options.

1. Seller paid paypal fees.
2. Buyer paid paypal fees.
3. Buyer send paypal as a gift.
4. Paypal was not used in this transaction.

Just boxes to check off, choose one. No emotion, just a statement of fact, so buyers know what they're getting into.

A similar poll could be required of sellers, rating their experience with a buyer when it comes to payment.

1. Buyer paid within 24 hours.
2. Buyer paid within 72 hours.
3. A payment plan was used.
4. Payment took longer than a week.

I would think twice about dealing with someone (even if they had 100% positive feedback) if every transaction as a buyer had them taking more than a week to pay, OR every transaction as a seller they were making the buyer pay the paypal fees.

I don't know if this is even possible, or if the servers could handle it, but it would be nice as this information is usually never included in feedback descriptions.

I need more coffee.


 
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on October 02, 2013, 12:27:07 AM
I would love it if people mentioned the fee payment in their feedback.  It's certainly not something I want to bother with from a seller.  And I don't want to be in the midst of a sale and becoming emotionally attached and THEN being informed of the fees.  That's like paying for groceries and then the manager comes out and says, "More money or you can't have the food."  Not to mention I have an extremely limited amount of money to spend on ponies - if I have the $2.99, I have two dollars and ninety-nine cents.  I do NOT have $3.36.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: BarbedDragon on October 14, 2013, 05:08:57 AM
I would love it if people mentioned the fee payment in their feedback.  It's certainly not something I want to bother with from a seller.  And I don't want to be in the midst of a sale and becoming emotionally attached and THEN being informed of the fees.  That's like paying for groceries and then the manager comes out and says, "More money or you can't have the food."  Not to mention I have an extremely limited amount of money to spend on ponies - if I have the $2.99, I have two dollars and ninety-nine cents.  I do NOT have $3.36.

Exactly my situation. I don't have a lot of extra cash this time of year and I already am doing math in my head before I contact the seller. :/
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on October 14, 2013, 05:41:04 AM
That just happened to me 4 days ago. I spent 3 days of communicating with a seller about extra pics, condition, various shipping prices etc... only to be told in the message asking for payment that they want me to pay their fees. I went back to their thread to see if it was stated anywhere there, nope.

So I backed out of the sale. I mean I also have to think about converting whatever funds to Canadian which also jacks up the price :huh:

It would be nice if perhaps sellers were encouraged/required to state whether or not they expect paypal fees to be paid. That way you know before contacting them and there are no surprises.

For me $1-$2 may be the difference between being able to purchase or having to hold off. That's just a fact of life when you're on a tight budget. I don't think that makes me cheap or selfish.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Skeen on October 14, 2013, 08:03:29 AM
I don't think that makes me cheap or selfish.

It certainly doesn't.  ;)  If you spent that much time communicating about the sale, the seller should have mentioned they wanted you to pay the fees.  I don't blame you for backing out.  I would have too. 
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on October 14, 2013, 09:35:14 AM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: bluerose9978 on October 14, 2013, 09:40:09 AM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?

You can say the same thing for the seller... If it's that big of a deal for the seller, maybe they should have just factored in that extra $0.23 in the pony cost in the first place, don't you think? Then maybe it wouldn't have come as a surprise for the buyer.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: achab1984 on October 14, 2013, 10:52:22 AM
I as a seller will pay the fees myself. I set up my pal pay and I agreed to that fee things when I got it!  I do pass on sales when the seller says that I need to pay the fees.  No way and sorry .......
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: bluerose9978 on October 14, 2013, 10:58:36 AM
I as a seller will pay the fees myself. I set up my pal pay and I agreed to that fee things when I got it!  I do pass on sales when the seller says that I need to pay the fees.  No way and sorry .......

Well said and ditto!!!
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on October 14, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?

I can see where you're coming from, however I'm referring to how people have budgets, or "play money" as I like to call it. I'm not referring to not being able to afford to pay for food or rent etc because I'd rather buy ponies. Bills are always first, ponies are last.

It's not the end of the world to me to pay the sellers fees, I just feel that sellers should be upfront that they expect it as opposed to once an agreement has been made and then they spring it on you. Does $0.23 make or break the deal for me? Probably not. Does the fact that the seller waited till the last minute to inform me that fees were also expected or required make or break the deal? Yes that could very well be the deciding factor, not because it's a slight bit extra, but because their sales thread doesn't state it and they waited until an agreement was reached to mention it.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Taxel on October 14, 2013, 06:38:11 PM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?

You can say the same thing for the seller... If it's that big of a deal for the seller, maybe they should have just factored in that extra $0.23 in the pony cost in the first place, don't you think? Then maybe it wouldn't have come as a surprise for the buyer.

And on top of that, someone might have a strict budget for any number of reasons. Maybe they only use money in their Paypal, got money as a gift, or allow themselves an exact amount of money per paycheck/week/etc to spend on their collections. 23 cents could very easily be the difference between someone being able or not being able to afford something.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: hellapostalia on October 15, 2013, 01:35:53 AM

It's not the end of the world to me to pay the sellers fees, I just feel that sellers should be upfront that they expect it as opposed to once an agreement has been made and then they spring it on you. Does $0.23 make or break the deal for me? Probably not. Does the fact that the seller waited till the last minute to inform me that fees were also expected or required make or break the deal? Yes that could very well be the deciding factor, not because it's a slight bit extra, but because their sales thread doesn't state it and they waited until an agreement was reached to mention it.

THIS.

Outside of my pony obsession, I own and operate my own business. Every seller on the arena owns their own business too, in some way, shape or form. Whether it's one sale a year or 20 sales a month, the same principles still apply.

Even if someone is just selling off their collection with no intention of being involved in pony sales after the fact, for those few months they are operating a business (small business, side business, hobby business, call it what you like).

They're selling and trading goods, dealing with paypal and ebay fees, researching the value of their products, staging their wares (i.e. pictures), creating a list of inventory, shipping/packing costs, overhead (especially for our lovely custom creators), communicating promptly, negotiating a sale... heck, even simply creating a sales thread with a catchy title to get as many views as possible to potentially boost sales.

My point in making this comparison is that NOT mentioning up front that the buyer will be responsible for certain fees is just bad business.

Sales are lost, customers are not happy, customers do not return, and in many cases, a bad experience with a seller will be shared with other potential buyers, thus losing more sales in the longrun. Bad business.

Will my pony budget break because at the end of a transaction the seller wants to charge me an extra $0.23 for paypal fees? No. But now I feel I've been lied to, my time has been wasted, I don't know what ELSE the seller hasn't told me, I have a bad taste in my mouth and a red flag has gone up.

But, like I said before, that's just me. Someone else can buy the ponies.

I just don't understand why some sellers continue to adhere to a bad business model in which customers are kept in the dark regarding paypal fees.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand i'm done. Sorry for the rant. :satisfied:



Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: partypony566 on October 15, 2013, 05:25:06 AM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?

You can say the same thing for the seller... If it's that big of a deal for the seller, maybe they should have just factored in that extra $0.23 in the pony cost in the first place, don't you think? Then maybe it wouldn't have come as a surprise for the buyer.

And on top of that, someone might have a strict budget for any number of reasons. Maybe they only use money in their Paypal, got money as a gift, or allow themselves an exact amount of money per paycheck/week/etc to spend on their collections. 23 cents could very easily be the difference between someone being able or not being able to afford something.

Yes I understand that, so that means if I factor in the extra $0.23 into my sale, I will lose a sale.

So for a seller, that situation is a lose lose.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: NoDivision on October 15, 2013, 05:30:14 AM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?

You can say the same thing for the seller... If it's that big of a deal for the seller, maybe they should have just factored in that extra $0.23 in the pony cost in the first place, don't you think? Then maybe it wouldn't have come as a surprise for the buyer.

And on top of that, someone might have a strict budget for any number of reasons. Maybe they only use money in their Paypal, got money as a gift, or allow themselves an exact amount of money per paycheck/week/etc to spend on their collections. 23 cents could very easily be the difference between someone being able or not being able to afford something.

Yes I understand that, so that means if I factor in the extra $0.23 into my sale, I will lose a sale.

So for a seller, that situation is a lose lose.

True - if someone doesn't have that money to spend the seller won't get their business either way. But the difference is if it's disclosed up front - either worked into the price or stated on the sales thread - then it saves the seller and the buyer time. There's no going back and forth in PMs only to find out later that the buyer can't afford the item if fees are tacked on at the end. That's super frustrating for both parties. The buyer is disappointed because they thought they were going to get an item only to find they can't, and the seller not only loses out on that sale but might have lost out on other business while thinking that item was as good as sold.

tl:dr - being up front about your paypal fees helps everyone!
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: lovesbabysquirmy on October 17, 2013, 11:54:12 PM
The thing is, whether it's right or wrong to ask a buyer to pay fees, if it's that much of a budget blower to factor in an extra $0.23 for example, I mean if money is that tight, surely it's best not to buy ponies at all for the time being and spend the money on food?

Ahhhh but I have a limited budget BECAUSE I prioritize food and bills over ponies.  Which is why it's a real emotional bummer when I'm almost through the sale and find out that the seller expects more than I have. 

Money is money in a transaction regardless of the income of the participants.  :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Sunshine on October 18, 2013, 03:45:44 AM
I just have to ask.... this is related, but I don't know if it was covered specifically... :blush: i was reading this thread for a while but, then lost a few pages so... :

If you guys are working with someone who doesn't necessarily mention fees up front or gift payments... and then you work on a deal and they cut you a break on the price and stuff, and then ask for payment as a gift... (out of the blue) - how do you handle that situation?

Let's say it's NOT someone you're super familiar with, it's someone with a good reputation but, perhaps you personally haven't worked with them or, maybe it's an international thing where you know you'll have to deal with shipping time waits and all things like that.

How as a buyer, do you not rudely back out of a "gift payment"?
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on October 18, 2013, 04:53:22 AM
I just have to ask.... this is related, but I don't know if it was covered specifically... :blush: i was reading this thread for a while but, then lost a few pages so... :

If you guys are working with someone who doesn't necessarily mention fees up front or gift payments... and then you work on a deal and they cut you a break on the price and stuff, and then ask for payment as a gift... (out of the blue) - how do you handle that situation?

Let's say it's NOT someone you're super familiar with, it's someone with a good reputation but, perhaps you personally haven't worked with them or, maybe it's an international thing where you know you'll have to deal with shipping time waits and all things like that.

How as a buyer, do you not rudely back out of a "gift payment"?

Good question :)

For me personally, when I contact a member I've already got an idea of the cost of the ponies based on the listed prices, so if the seller decides to cut me a deal and knock some money off, I don't think it would bother me so much to pay the paypal fees. I would just rather the seller gives me the full price.

When I message a seller I ask how much to ship the following to Canada, or what will be the total cost of the items and shipping? If a seller wants the paypal fees to be covered by me then just include it in the total amount given to me. Whether there is a discount or not, that's how I prefer it to be done.

I haven't backed out in a situation like what you're referring to, simply because I already know that I can afford the ponies when I initialize communication, so if the seller is going to take a little money off, that just helps me out even more :)

I don't know if that helped you or not.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: hellapostalia on October 18, 2013, 06:08:09 AM
I just have to ask.... this is related, but I don't know if it was covered specifically... :blush: i was reading this thread for a while but, then lost a few pages so... :

If you guys are working with someone who doesn't necessarily mention fees up front or gift payments... and then you work on a deal and they cut you a break on the price and stuff, and then ask for payment as a gift... (out of the blue) - how do you handle that situation?

Let's say it's NOT someone you're super familiar with, it's someone with a good reputation but, perhaps you personally haven't worked with them or, maybe it's an international thing where you know you'll have to deal with shipping time waits and all things like that.

How as a buyer, do you not rudely back out of a "gift payment"?

Good question :)

For me personally, when I contact a member I've already got an idea of the cost of the ponies based on the listed prices, so if the seller decides to cut me a deal and knock some money off, I don't think it would bother me so much to pay the paypal fees. I would just rather the seller gives me the full price.

When I message a seller I ask how much to ship the following to Canada, or what will be the total cost of the items and shipping? If a seller wants the paypal fees to be covered by me then just include it in the total amount given to me. Whether there is a discount or not, that's how I prefer it to be done.

I haven't backed out in a situation like what you're referring to, simply because I already know that I can afford the ponies when I initialize communication, so if the seller is going to take a little money off, that just helps me out even more :)

I don't know if that helped you or not.

Ditto @MikeysGrrl ~ good question!

I'll try to put myself in your shoes Sunshine  ;)

Personally, I would be a bit put off b/c the seller did not mention the paypal fees for the reasons I mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread.

However, I would be appreciative that the seller has given me a bit of a deal on my purchase.

I would also NEVER pay as a gift to just protect myself (especially if it's an international thing, and particularly if I did not know the seller well/at all, even with great feedback).

If I REALLY wanted the pony/ponies, I would look at the discount I was given, and figure out (or request from seller) what the exact paypal fee would be.

If I were ok with that fee (meaning that fee didn't negate my discount completely i.e. I'm still getting a deal I'm comfortable with) I would thank the seller for the discount, tell them I'd be happy to purchase, but let them know I make a point of never paying as a gift just to retain my protection as a buyer.

I would then offer to pay the paypal fee for them, and include that with my total for the pony/ponies and shipping. That way, I get the ponies and the discount, and the seller doesn't have to worry about fees.

**I would also (very professionally, but with kindness) let them know that while I am extremely excited about the ponies and the great transaction, I am a little disappointed that they didn't let me know about paying as a gift up front. I look forward to buying from them again, but I would really appreciate them letting me know all the fees involved from the beginning, just so we're on the same page  :)  **

I may wait to do this until the transaction is finished, and my ponies are in hand, depending on the temperament of the seller.

On the other hand, if I end up not feeling that it's a fair deal (and/or other red flags have gone up), I have no problem letting the seller know (again, with kindness and professionalism)...

... that while I appreciate the discount and I love their ponies, I unfortunately don't make pony purchases as a gift to retain my buyer protection. And although they are a kind seller with great communication, I really felt uncomfortable they didn't let me know about the fees up front.

Man oh man I really have to stop writing novels!! Congrats if anyone made it through all that!  :blush:
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: MikeysGrrrl on October 18, 2013, 07:52:05 AM
After reading the above I realize that I clearly didn't read Sunshine's post properly :blush:

I am not comfortable paying as gift unless it's someone I'm very familiar with (have done multiple purchases from, regular contact with etc), and I do appreciate being told up front about that, as like Hella stated, paying as a gift eliminates the buyer protection.

I would polite and upfront about how I felt, if a seller was insistant that it still be paid as a gift even after explaining why I'm not, then I would say that I wasn't comfortable purchasing from someone who doesn't want their buyers to be protected if something happens.

Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kezrob23 on October 18, 2013, 11:53:47 AM
Just to throw another spanner in the works, do sellers ask for payment as gift to avoid PayPal fees or to avoid possible tax/income issues? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere about PayPal and taxable income... But I am also full of head cold, and blonde :)
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: kitkatvintage on October 18, 2013, 12:04:03 PM
Just to throw another spanner in the works, do sellers ask for payment as gift to avoid PayPal fees or to avoid possible tax/income issues? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere about PayPal and taxable income... But I am also full of head cold, and blonde :)
If you take in $20,000 or more in a year, Paypal is required to report it to the IRS (this is for the US only. I have no idea what Paypal does or does not report for other countries). That $20k includes money to be used for shipping costs: for example, if I sold a pony for $10 & charged $5 for shipping, that is a $15 transaction even though all $15 does not end up as profit for the seller. It's the seller's responsibility to claim the shipping & fees in their taxes.

I'm not sure how "gift" payments factor into that total.
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: hellapostalia on October 18, 2013, 12:08:36 PM
Just to throw another spanner in the works, do sellers ask for payment as gift to avoid PayPal fees or to avoid possible tax/income issues? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading somewhere about PayPal and taxable income... But I am also full of head cold, and blonde :)

Ha! Sorry about the head cold, and I'm sure your response has nothing to do with you being blonde (they have more fun, after all!!)  ;)

Ditto Kitkat. As of 2011 (to my knowledge no other updates have been made), sellers making an income from paypal are only taxed in the US if they 1) make more than $20,000/yr from sales and 2) have more than 200 transactions in the same calendar year. Sellers must meet BOTH criteria to be taxed, not either/or.

** If anyone has any other info about taxable paypal fees please let me know!!**

So, to answer your question, I think sellers are asking for payment as a gift to offset their fees, not to 'work around' US tax codes.

Hope you feel better!!
Title: Re: Gift Payments and Seller Fee Etiquette
Post by: Corona on October 18, 2013, 02:50:13 PM
Here's the exact quotes from Paypal's ToS.

On fees:
Quote
4.6 no Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

On paying for goods as gifts:
Quote
4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

There is no rule against factoring the fees into the cost of the item as long as you don't outright say that's what you're doing.

If someone asks me to pay as a gift, I remind them of Paypal's ToS in a "I don't want you to get in trouble" kind of way and offer to pay for the item as a good. Never had anyone get mad at me and if they do then that would be a red flag not to give them money I can't get back!

Generally I go by the rule that if I'm receiving a tangible item like a pony or plush, it's a good. If I'm receiving an intangible item like digital art, it's a service. I use this in selling too.
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